Why is Haye's stamina bad?

josh fg · Post by **josh fg** » 10 Apr 2006, 08:14

I think there is a tendancy to make too much of the stamina thing. He lasted 8 rounds and was strong enough to KO his opponent in the 8th (addmittedly i didn't see the fight). Apparently he is starting to do more road work. I think he spends rather too much time trying to look good and on the weights but don't think its as big an issue as we all think, he used to through a massive amount of punches per round which is why he looked shot vs Tompson and that would tire anyone out.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 10 Apr 2006, 08:18

Arsenal wrote:A fit, prepared Hobson would have beaten Macca and would really test Haye. If Haye doesn't take him out before 5/6 rds then I would fancy Hobson to stop him.

I think Hobson beat Macca the 1st time still.

114 - 113 they had it to but instead of Macca, I had it for Hobson.

If Haye didn't neglect his stamina he beats both and beats Macca easy.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 10 Apr 2006, 08:20

Oh yeah hasn't he sparred with Danny Williams before?

Wonder what Haye was like with Danny whos a genuine Heavy.

josh fg · Post by **josh fg** » 10 Apr 2006, 08:33

He said he was doing road work on sand for his last fight and that makes you fit as hell. It proberbly is more easy to run in Florida than london at 6 in the morning. Robin Reid does his at 3

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 10 Apr 2006, 09:33

Max Molyneux wrote:
Arsenal wrote:A fit, prepared Hobson would have beaten Macca and would really test Haye. If Haye doesn't take him out before 5/6 rds then I would fancy Hobson to stop him.
I think Hobson beat Macca the 1st time still.

114 - 113 they had it to but instead of Macca, I had it for Hobson.

If Haye didn't neglect his stamina he beats both and beats Macca easy.

I had Hobson beating Macca by a couple of rds live, then scored it a draw watching it on DVD. I agree, Hobson would've beaten him with more time to get ready for it.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 10 Apr 2006, 09:47

Macca's a bit too limited with better fighters and mostly goes off his punching power.

Nelson wouldn't have a hard time with him.

josh fg · Post by **josh fg** » 10 Apr 2006, 09:49

I realy think that fight should go to a rematch but doesn't look like Warren wants to (he proberbly recons his by will go down like a granny on ice if Hobson prepers). Don't know why Hobson hasn't been calling for it

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 10 Apr 2006, 10:13

Yes, I agree with that, he showed bravery bordering on foolhardiness that night, he didn't just quit on his stool. A lot of fighters have their own preferences for training methods, Ali always hated roadwork,

My main concern with Haye is his wanting to move up to heavyweight, I just cannot see him living with the big boys even in today's climate.

I don't think he will be able to bang out the best cruisers let alone heavyweights, and he isn't a naturally big man. He is broad shouldered, but has a slender neck, forearms and is sleight in terms of the depth of his body, even compared to fatarse Toney. I just cannot see Haye being a success at heavyweight, and I can see him getting found out by even the lesser lights of the division unless they put him in with natural cruiserweights.

I'm prepared to be proven wrong though.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 10 Apr 2006, 10:50

Arsenal : I would allegde Hide was using some "special supplements" to get up to 16 stone

I would love to see Haye make it to the top at both weights, dont get me round... i aint a hater, as they say.... Haye is a nice guy and I genuinely wish him the best.. I just think he trains wrong

Roadwork doesnt equal stamina.... Holyfield may or may not have neglected his roadwork (he was known for his lack of stamina early in his career) but you dont have to do miles and miles of roadwork to have good boxing stamina... there are lots of other ways to get good boxing condition.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 10 Apr 2006, 11:51

Roadwork is an extremely old fashioned method of gaining stamina, I've spoken to some fitness coaches who said that roadwork was totally unsuited to the sort of explosive fitness that fighters require and instead suggested 200 meter sprints followed by a minute's rest and interval training including wood chopping and a lot of the things that were actually in the rocky movie funnily enough.

A lot of modern fighters seem to be ditching the traditional approach, some get it right and some get it wrong, but a lot of stamina is mental as well as physical, the ability for a fighter to relax and set the tempo which suits them and impose it.

Look at gutbucket Toney, even though he gassed in his last fight against Rahman, he was still in better fighting shape than most of the massive lumps who pass for heavyweights these days.

This guy reckoned that generally most boxing trainers knew fornicate all about fitness and nutrition, and that their methods were anachronistic in modern sports.

Good example is Hatton, whose methods are a little different to the traditional boxing training, and who has superb conditioning and never seems to lack for energy in his fights. He has the support of a top notch nutritionist in Kerry Hayes and it shows in the way he sheds so much weight for fights yet comes in in such excellent shape.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 10 Apr 2006, 12:02

How many of Billy Grahams boxers have Kerry Kaye's as their conditioner?

The guy sure puts them on an exellent diet too from what I read off Hattons official site where Kayes posted on his forum for a Q and A session.

http://www.rickyhitmanhatton.com/forum/ ... eadid=6371

Sounds like he has a good weight program for them depending on their weight too.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 10 Apr 2006, 12:03

James: you are right....
unfortunately most boxers end up training for weight hence the long runs...

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 10 Apr 2006, 12:06

Good quote from Kayes off the Q and A on that link.

KK: Get ready for an embrassing answer, everybody cares its not only about the fight its about enjoying the 12 weeks lead up, Billy is passionate about the welfare of all his fighters and has known Ricky from day one, its worth mentioning that i wouldn't be involved in boxing if it wasn't for Billy's forward thinking, alot of boxing trainers have inherited ideas, some even think weights are bad for you. Billy always knew that people from bodybuilding backgrounds could help with weight control and strength of his boxers, whether you like bodybuilding or not, we are experts at gaining and loosing weight correctly. As i said the answer to your question is we all genuinely care and i think (know) Ricky would win.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 10 Apr 2006, 12:08

Yep, probably partly why old timers were so keen on it, running is still the best way to lose weight fast.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 10 Apr 2006, 12:23

I don't find it very good for losing leg weight though but for more bodyweight.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 10 Apr 2006, 12:37

What the hell is 'leg weight?'

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 10 Apr 2006, 13:36

I don't think Haye has the chin to make it as a heavy... it looks like a disarster in the making if he moves up... Basically Haye looks like a light-heavy...

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 10 Apr 2006, 16:40

jamesmcdonnell wrote:What the hell is 'leg weight?'

Body fat on the legs then.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 10 Apr 2006, 22:27

Old fighters could fight 15 rounds at a good pace. A lot of todays with the so called new age training are dead after 12. Oscar De La Hoya has faded late in a number of fights despite having all the newest shit available. Ive seen Ricky Hatton on weight machines, which is crazy. Ask anyone who knows about this shit and they'll tell ya for sports, free weights is the way to go. Bodybuilding? Sure go ahead and use machines to isolate muscles.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 11 Apr 2006, 00:11

Max Molyneux wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:What the hell is 'leg weight?'
Body fat on the legs then.

You cant spot train areas, you just have to look to reduce overall bodyfat. The most popular myth being that situps/abdominal exercises gets rid of more fat around the middle.

The best way to reduce weight/bodyfat is to mix interval cardiovascular exercise with weight training. I weightrain 3 times a week, with 2 or 3 interval exercise sessions and my bodyfat is about 11%. It was about 22% a year ago. But the most important thing is nutrition, without that all the training in the world will not do the trick.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 11 Apr 2006, 00:12

As for Haye, I dont think Adam Booth is the man to be training him. I'd be interested to see how he got on training with a proper boxing trainer. Booth is more of a normal gym trainer than a boxing trainer IMO.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 11 Apr 2006, 05:42

Lefthookhappy19 wrote:Old fighters could fight 15 rounds at a good pace. A lot of todays with the so called new age training are dead after 12. Oscar De La Hoya has faded late in a number of fights despite having all the newest shit available. Ive seen Ricky Hatton on weight machines, which is crazy. Ask anyone who knows about this shit and they'll tell ya for sports, free weights is the way to go. Bodybuilding? Sure go ahead and use machines to isolate muscles.

Ricky Hatton is one of the fittest fighters I've seen in a long time, so how can you say his training methods are wrong. I don't see what difference it makes doing free or fixed plane weights. There's also a lot more risk of injury doing free weights. Hatton doesn't do huge amounts of weight training in any case. He does lots of work on the body belt, that weird bar exercise and a lot of floor work, according to what he outlined in that book 'Boxing's greatest workouts.'

Training methods don't count for shit if you cut corners in training. You have to force yourself to train to get fit whether for leisure or for competitive sports, and if you don't put the effort in, you don't get the results.

The long layoffs by modern fighters are the big difference I think, fighting twice a year with long periods doing no training is bound to affect your fitness as you are having to work your way back to core fitness after 3 months of slobbing about. Although a lot of the old timers loved to party just as much as modern fighters, they fought often enough that their core fitness never slumped as far.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 11 Apr 2006, 05:51

nickd wrote:
The most popular myth being that situps/abdominal exercises gets rid of more fat around the middle.

my personal favourites are people who dont do any weight training because either

1) "i dont want to end up looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger"
2) "i dont wont too much muscle because when you stop training it will turn to fat"

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 11 Apr 2006, 06:03

Isn't shannon the guy who takes his fighters on those absolute bastard hill runs? He trains or used to train Ali Nuumbembe didn't he?

Shirow · Post by **Shirow** » 11 Apr 2006, 06:11

It's all true. I'm surprised the roadwork myth still hasn't been crushed by popular knowledge.

It's only use is an efficient way of keeping body fat under control. Different people tend to hold fat in different places it's just down to their genetics.

Most guys hold it around their waist some their legs

Why train as middle distance runner for a boxing match it just doesn't make sense. Explosive reps are the way to go. I'd recommend 100M rolling start sprints followed by jog back x10.

This sort of training mimics sparring or regular fights which is what the old time fighters have over today's.