Rocky Marciano, what if?

[Kalan]

Yes I have, and unfortunately I have also seen [the Suzie Q]. All things considered I would call it NO better than INGO'S BINGO

Also called "The Hammer of Thor'' and "The Toonder" it was a pretty good punch.

Johansson couldn't box or defend himself the best, but he only lost to Floyd Patterson cuz he could hit with his right.. He knocked undefeated number one contender Eddie Machen stiff in the 1st round.. He cold cocked Dick Rickardson one fight after Richardson did the same thing to Karl Mildenberger in Germany with a thunderous 1st round, Pacquiao style ice job.. Ingo was the 1st man to KO Italian and European Heavyweight Champion Franco Cavicchi the first time he won the European Title.. He also got rid of Henry Cooper, Hein Ten Hoff, and Floyd Patterson in their 1st fight.. For my money he could punch harder with his right hand than Rocky.

[cfang]

I don’t necessarily admire rocky more than lots of other fighters just don’t assume he’s stupid based on the way he fought when it clearly worked for him and don’t dismiss someone with such obvious abilities in a head to head out of hand. I’ve seen all your comments before over the years and indeed there have been times when I’d agree with some of them. However, I think rocky’s gameplan was very well thought out by him, his trainer etc and he watched and studied film of his opponents to see strengths, weaknesses, what they did under pressure. There was far far more to him than a mindless slugger. He knew exactly what he was doing and how to win.

Sonny Liston would have believed ALL of his Christmases had arrived at once if a stupid little 190 lb crude slugger had decided he actually WANTED to stand and trade with him. He might well have stood blinking his eyes for the first minute whilst deciding whether or not it was really happening, or perhaps it might be some stupid Murican version of Candid Camera.

Marciano had less than NOTHING that could have possibly bothered Liston. Let us not forget, that at the time people were actually claiming that the fleet footed 6' 3" , 210 lb Clay was in danger of being killed if Sonny got to him, never mind some stumpy little nobody like Marciano. Rocky was ONLY ever considered as a guy who could come out on top in wars of attrition. He was NEVER considered to be a Liston, or a Foreman, who could simply walk across the ring and blitz the other guy.

How do you know Rocky was stupid?

Simply by watching film of his fights.

In interviews he seems very articulate and thoughtful, in particular when he talks boxing.

I am very sorry, but he doesn't. What he does come across as is very good at talking about himself.

You seem to think he managed to go 49-0 being some wild slugger with no method, no tactics - what a load of rubbish

.


Wrong again. I couldn't care less about his 49 - 0. What I DO care about however is his WORLD TITLE FIGHT record, and WHO they were AND how OLD they were when he fought them.

Rarely has a fighter been as well schooled and as tactically savvy.

WHAT?

He had an amazing manager

So did a guy called STING, until he discovered the verminous filth ripped him off for 8 million POUNDS, never mind dollars.

and his style was designed to make the most out of what he had got,

Which apart from getting battered, and EVENTUALLY getting the better of the other guy, NEVER blinded anyone with science. Though I try my hardest to see where you might be coming from. For the record, can we please NEVER mention the two words SKILL, and MARCIANO in the same book. Forget the same sentence.

well it certainly worked didn't it?

Yes. It also works for PUB / BAR ROOM brawlers all over the world, for a limited period of time. Hmmm. Now lets think. Who won a world title, then retired 3 years, 7 fights, against 5 men later?

Also there's a difference between the Rocky coming up and the Rocky as champ

.

Really? Please give us an example.

He was more of a one punch killer coming up (susie q ever heard of that)

Yes I have, and unfortunately I have also seen it. All things considered I would call it NO better than INGO'S BINGO.

but did change to be more of a wear em down fighter later on. Nobody seems to know why but I'm sure it was deliberate and again it seemed to work.

Have you ever stopped to consider the possibility that perhaps it had more to do with the quality of his generally poor opposition that made him " appear " to struggle as they improved?

Please allow me to offer an alternative viewpoint. Imagine if Ali, Holmes, Tyson. Holyfield, Lewis, or a Klitchko brother ONLY fought, pumped up Light Heavies, or guys well over 30 years of age. Would you admire THEM as much as you admire Marciano?

[Controversial]

Liston would have a size advantage over Marciano in 1958 but not a massive one. Liston would be classed as a small HW today, 6'1" and he averaged 205lbs for all his fights up to 1958. I also think his 84" reach was over exaggerated. Still a tough fight for Rocky in 1958 though.

[cfang]

I don’t necessarily admire rocky more than lots of other fighters just don’t assume he’s stupid based on the way he fought when it clearly worked for him and don’t dismiss someone with such obvious abilities in a head to head out of hand. I’ve seen all your comments before over the years and indeed there have been times when I’d agree with some of them. However, I think rocky’s gameplan was very well thought out by him, his trainer etc and he watched and studied film of his opponents to see strengths, weaknesses, what they did under pressure. There was far far more to him than a mindless slugger. He knew exactly what he was doing and how to win.

You are as entitled to your opinion as the rest of us, but I simply can't agree that taking severe beatings on the way to eventually getting the better of the other guy comes under the heading of " a well thought out game plan "

A visual examination of Marciano's defense could be deceiving. Boxing master, Archie Moore noted that his study of Marciano on film led him to believe that he would be vulnerable to a left hook. When the fight began, Archie learned that, due to the angle of Marciano's defensive crouch, he could hit Marciano with a hook only if he placed himself in position to be hit by Marciano.

[Kalan]

Liston would have a size advantage over Marciano in 1958 but not a massive one. Liston would be classed as a small HW today, 6'1" and he averaged 205lbs for all his fights up to 1958. I also think his 84" reach was over exaggerated. Still a tough fight for Rocky in 1958 though.

You have to measure Liston’s size against the other top Heavyweights of the 1950’s. Not against Anthony Joshua or the Klitschko’s. If AJ fought in 2090 he might be at a size disadvantage. The only top Heavyweight Liston’s size was the unskilled swinger Cleveland Williams. Given the difference in speed and physical coordination, Liston hit Williams so easily it was ridiculous. He was able to tee off on Big Cat and do him quickly.

When Liston met smaller, very skillful Heavyweights, like Folley, Machen, and Patterson, he was able to match them in speed and boxing finesse – but they were too small and their arms were too short stay with Sonny... They lacked the strength and punching power to maintain the center of the ring. Machen survived but he ran his ass off -- particularly after he was decked with a hard shot.

I’m not knocking Marciano’s style. He was very short in stature and his arms were short for his height. The only way he was going to beat anybody taller than him was getting close and knocking Hell out of them. But Rocky had to be stronger than his opponents to overpower them. He wasn’t going to win any stick and move contest so what else was he going to do?

Joe Frazier had a very similar style to Rocky's.. He was short and small with very short arms, but his dominance was longer than Marciano’s.. He was undefeated in 10 World Championship Fights when he met George Foreman and a solid favorite to beat the greenie. But Foreman was 4” taller and his reach was massively longer. Not only that, but Foreman's arms and shoulders were twice as big and powerful as Frazier's. Smokin' Joe wasn’t going to outbox Foreman from the outside and venturing into his wheelhouse was suicide ... hence the 2 round exit.

Marciano would face the same dynamics versus Sonny Liston, but would be at a more severe disadvantage. He would have a better chance with Ali than Liston – but still a very remote chance cuz of his massive size disadvantage... Size is important or Boxing wouldn’t have weight divisions.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Again, no disrespect but Archie was a 39 year old guy at the time who had spent most of his career fighting at 175 or less.

--- And I respect the right of the mentally challenged to drool over the internet.

Archie was a ranked heavyweight also fighting as a heavyweight for many if not most of the 10 years Arch held his LH belt, including well after his Rocky fight. You could look it up on this very website, but I wouldn't wish to strain you beyond your capacity that might blow a gasket.

[Kalan]

Again, no disrespect but Archie was a 39 year old guy at the time who had spent most of his career fighting at 175 or less.

--- And I respect the right of the mentally challenged to drool over the internet.

Archie was a ranked heavyweight also fighting as a heavyweight for many if not most of the 10 years Arch held his LH belt, including well after his Rocky fight. You could look it up on this very website, but I wouldn't wish to strain you beyond your capacity that might blow a gasket.

Even a mentally challenged individual might realize that Archie Moore made a very short, small, old, and pudgy Heavyweight... Do you?

Obviously he was a very skilled boxer, but he began his career as a Welterweight and over 70 fights in was campaigning as a Middleweight.

Why do you think Floyd Patterson was able to run Moore over when he was 3 years into his career at 21?

[cfang]

Again, no disrespect but Archie was a 39 year old guy at the time who had spent most of his career fighting at 175 or less.

Oh yes this is true but i was making the point that even someone as experienced as moore could be surprised by rocky's tactical nouse. I read Ali was surprised by him too. It think given rocky's shortcomings so to speak, there had to be more to him than met the eye for him to be so successful. Goldman had a lot of experience over many years and so Id think he was a key part of rocky's success.

[Controversial]

Liston would have a size advantage over Marciano in 1958 but not a massive one. Liston would be classed as a small HW today, 6'1" and he averaged 205lbs for all his fights up to 1958. I also think his 84" reach was over exaggerated. Still a tough fight for Rocky in 1958 though.

You have to measure Liston’s size against the other top Heavyweights of the 1950’s. Not against Anthony Joshua or the Klitschko’s. If AJ fought in 2090 he might be at a size disadvantage. The only top Heavyweight Liston’s size was the unskilled swinger Cleveland Williams. Given the difference in speed and physical coordination, Liston hit Williams so easily it was ridiculous. He was able to tee off on Big Cat and do him quickly.

All I meant was Liston wasn’t as huge as is often made or thought. He was big for the era but he wasn’t massively bigger than Marciano. In 1958 he would’ve had about 15lbs on Rocky and only 3” in height. To hear some people it’s made out it’s a David vs Goliath fight, far from it.

[Kalan]

A great deal of Marciano's success had to do with the way he was managed and matched... The best matched fighter ever. And it WOULD have been Midget vs Giant had Marciano faced Liston. Rocky was smaller than Patterson who weighed 190-plus for Liston and had no shot in Hell. Marciano fought Light Heavyweights who Liston would have run over like they were dwarfs. Even Johansson refused to fight Liston.

When Nino Valdes beat Ezzard Charles in 1953, he was the number one contender for a while.. I think Rocky could have beaten him, but he wasn't a great matchup style wise and Goldman knew it... When Baker beat Valdes in an "elimination fight" to determine the next opponent for Marciano - Al Weill said "It was an elimination fight all right. They're both so bad they eliminated each other" ... Goldman didn't want that fight.

Marciano's forte was about the same as Joe Frazier's.. Beating the living Hell out of smaller, weaker, or older opponents -- and running over boxers who didn't have outstanding punching power by absorbing everything they could throw for as many rounds as they could throw.. Marciano never met his George Foreman -- but if Sonny Liston had gotten as early a start as Mike Tyson or George Foreman -- he certainly would have.

[Controversial]

Liston also fought mainly small guys up to 1958, the vast majority were under 200lbs and Marshall who first beat Liston was 180lb and 6 foot. Marciano was smaller than Liston but not by a huge amount at that point in time. I’d have fancied Liston to win but only because Marciano was in the downslope when he retired and he wouldn’t have been any better in 1958

.

[Kalan]

I’d have fancied Liston to win

I'd fancy Liston to do a Foreman-Frazier style job on Rocky.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I neither know nor care where you come from but in my country the difference between 1935, and 1955 is 20 years. Archie had fought more times at 175 or less than he had at Heavyweight by the time he climbed into the ring to face Marciano at the age of 39.

Now go and blow a gasket over that inconvenient fact.

- Just looking at the occasional regrettable dribble you post since you first dragged in here:



It has long been apparent here that you are all goldie moldy, decades past your expiration date after having squandered the depravity of your pagan youth with nary a hint of wisdom acquired to leaven your decrepit elder years.

Now, grab your crotch if it ain't shrunk up into raisins by now, I don’t want the family jewels busting open on the concrete when I give you Archie’s overall numbers as the LH champ, 10-2 in full unified title bouts, the 10 wins being his undefeated lightheavy title reign and his 2 losses to HOF heavies, Rocky Marciano and Floyd Patterson. And all the heavies, too many for me to be bothered to with, an overall 45-4-2 mark in this epic 11 year span. Generally he’d only fight one or two lightheavy bouts in a year, mainly title defenses, and then cash in for the remainder of the year, most against ranked heavy contenders, fringe contenders and former contenders which was where the money was.

Then we have his last loss near 50 yrs of age against young Cassius Clay. What other old man in the history of boxing goes out on his shield against class like that?

Moore’s was the era when men were men and didn’t run around as moldy Halloween executioners making silly execution signs like kiddies out on a dungeons and dragons lark. Like Sonny Liston, Archie was widely reputed to be 2-3 yrs older than his accepted birthday, meaning his post 40 record would be greater, but no matter whatever his official birth date of that dubious era of recording rural data in shanties that didn't even have a mailing address much less water, electricity, or plumbing, Archie by dint of learned experience and applied wisdom of his considerable boxing intellect, likely the greatest ever achieved, became one of the most beloved, respected, and feared P4P fighters ever as evidenced of holding the all time knock out record.

Without that stint of greatness after he got his first crack at greatness, he wouldn't be so highly ranked, and you'd been bad mouthing him all the same. Might as well as bad mouth young Cassius Clay or Jack Dempsey for being skinny teenagers, completely irrelevant to the larger achievements of their lives, marking you as the most irrelevant poster on this forum...arguably...you've a fair lot of competition, but you can rise to the top with a bit more blither greased up with your unceasing bile towards truly great fighters.

[Kalan]

Hmmm... Is this topic how great a fighter Archie Moore was over the entire span of his wonderful and illustrious career??? ... Or how well Marciano would have done against Floyd Patterson and Sonny Liston had he continued his carefully managed career??? ... It's the latter.

Post Marciano...Moore was stopped only once in his next 40 fights.. That was an early stoppage by Floyd Patterson.. It was certainly a fight of a different character than Marciano vs Moore.. No trip to the deck by Patterson.

St. Petersburg Times: “Dazzling the 39-year-old Light Heavyweight king with his blazing speed of hand, Patterson climaxed his amazing rise from Olympic champ to King of the World’s Heavies in only 4 years.

Patterson was piling up a lead on the official cards against his wildly missing opponent when he crashed home a terrific left hook to the jaw. The hook had a delayed action effect on old Archie who hoped to become the oldest man ever to crash to the Heavyweight Title on a second try. For a split second Moore started to come on, then he spun and fell on his face. Dazed and befuddled by this scowling young tiger, Moore barely beat the count of referee Frank Sikora, rising at the count of nine.

As Moore wobbled, unsteady on his aging pins, Patterson finished him off with another powerful left, sinking Moore to his haunches.”

In fact, Patterson was so skilled and precise he had the veteran Moore befuddled and swinging wildly. Moore would go nearly another 6 years and 28 fights before getting stopped again, by young Cassius Clay when he was 45 years old. Patterson was a hard puncher and dispatched Moore like nothing. Marciano was a small guy. Patterson certainly had major skill and speed advantages over Marciano and seemed to be a sharper puncher as well, dispatching Moore a lot easier than Rocky did. There was at least a fair chance Patterson would have stopped the aging and wide open Marciano like he did Moore.. It would have been a badly battered Rock if he made it 15.

[drunkenpiper36]

I think he could have reigned until perhaps 1957-58. Floyd Patterson may have looked better against Archie Moore than Rocky did but I think he was still too young and green for Marciano. That and Floyd had the tendency to get decked a lot and always had a questionable chin. Eddie Machen might actually have been his biggest threat in the late fifties.

[Kalan]

I think he could have reigned until perhaps 1957-58. Floyd Patterson may have looked better against Archie Moore than Rocky did but I think he was still too young and green for Marciano. That and Floyd had the tendency to get decked a lot and always had a questionable chin. Eddie Machen might actually have been his biggest threat in the late fifties.

Patterson wasn't green.. He had over 30 professional fights and he was very skilled and experienced when he turned pro.. He also beat a 32-year-old Eddie Machen easy.. Machen went on to give Jerry Quarry and Joey Orbillo boxing lessons, so he was far from done when Patterson beat him..

Archie Moore said after Floyd knocked him out, "Floyd Patterson is a vastly improved fighter. He has potentialities of being a great fighter when he gets some experience. I felt confident I could beat him, but I also learned that youth can be too much."

He was amazed at Patterson's speed.. What Moore didn't realize was that Patterson HAD the experience ALREADY.. It doesn't take 10 years for a top amateur to develop a complete professional game.. If you're fighting every 2 or 3 weeks like Mike Tyson it came in 18 months.. Patterson had more experience, more fights, and was older than Tyson when he won the Heavyweight Title.. That was his 32nd fight.. He was in his 4th year as a professional when he blew out Moore. Patterson was obviously too young, fast, and skilled for the aging Marciano -- so Rocky quit.

Patterson had never been knocked down ever when he beat Moore -- Moore had been knocked down about 28 times for a world record for World Champions.. Moore couldn't move Patterson with his best shots.. But Archie moved Marciano -- knocked him down in fact.

[GreenShadow]

On September 21, 1955, Rocky Marciano fought Archie Moore. Rocky beat Archie by a 9th round knockout. Right after this fight, Marciano retired from professional boxing.


Had Rocky not retired, had Marciano fought until 1968. -------------

1. Do you think that Rocky would have been as dominant as what he was before 1955? If so, why?



2. If you don't think that Marciano would have been as dominant as what he was before 1955, which boxers could have beaten him?



Please explain.

what do you think? please explain.

[ewenhay]

I think Patterson would have beaten Marciano and I think Marciano knew that too. He got out at the right time and fair play, not many do.

[Controversial]

Patterson had never been knocked down ever when he beat Moore

He had, the 166lb Crecy dropped him in Pattersons 15th fight.

[Crease]

Again, no disrespect but Archie was a 39 year old guy at the time who had spent most of his career fighting at 175 or less.

Moore was still a contender when Clay came along 7/8 years later to fight him... Moore was far from finished when he fought The Rock.

[Kalan]

Patterson had never been knocked down ever when he beat Moore

He had, the 166lb Crecy dropped him in Pattersons 15th fight.

Okay. I'll go with that. I read Rademacher was the first to put him down, but there it is on the record. Patterson started off as a Middleweight so Crecy was actually slightly bigger at that stage of his career. Patterson weighed 164 and three quarters.

Crecy was having a bad patch...Patterson was his 10th loss in 14 fights, but interestingly enough, he beat Ralph Jones a couple fights earlier. Also interesting is Crecy was a Frenchman---but Patterson was Crecy's 5th straight fight in the United States in less than 5 months... Gustav Scholz and Lazlo Papp where European Middleweights with a combined total of 2 losses in 125 fights. They were unable to secure fight booking in America. Scholz came over here to campaign and got 1 fight against Al Andrews in MSG. They were both southpaws and difficult to fight.