Lennox Lewis: Is He in the Great Larry Holmes' Class?

[Controversial]

If he had lost to Spinks earlier in his career it would be an issue but not so much im 1985.

Many think he lost to Witherspoon and Williams. This is the thing with controversial decisions, had there been 3 different judges scoring, any fight in history could been viewed differently and the course of history changed. Of course it goes down as a win for Holmes but only in some peoples eyes.

[Cojimar 1946]

I don't think bringing up controversial decisions helps Lewis's case. There are plenty of people who feel he lost to Mercer and that was in his prime aged 30 when he was with Stewart. Had the decision gone against him there he would have a prime loss to a guy who was beaten by Jesse Ferguson (once officially though twice in some peoples view).

[Controversial]

I don't think bringing up controversial decisions helps Lewis's case. There are plenty of people who feel he lost to Mercer and that was in his prime aged 30 when he was with Stewart. Had the decision gone against him there he would have a prime loss to a guy who was beaten by Jesse Ferguson (once officially though twice in some peoples view).

I wasn't referring to Lewis, you said the Spinks loss would've been an issue had it happen earlier in Holmes career. I was just pointing out that many thought he lost to Witherspoon and Williams which both happened earlier in his career.

The same rule applies to Lewis though, had it been 3 other judges maybe he wouldn't' have got the decision against Mercer, scoring fights is very subjective.

[Controversial]

Haye's problem throughout his career has been severely over-training and injuring himself repeatedly... But he's a great Heavyweight.

A great HW based on what? His HW record is 7-2, hardly great.

[Kalan]

Haye won 3 Heavyweight Title Fights... The same number of Title Fight wins as Gene Tunney -- and more than Sonny Liston, Max Schmeling, Ingemar Johansson, and other HOF Heavyweight Champions.. He gave up over 100 pounds and nearly a foot of height to Nicolai Valuev.. He beat 2 Heavyweight Champions and one Olympic Gold Medal winner in his 3 Title Fight wins.. His only Heavyweight losses were largely due to injury.

I think Haye will win important fights in the future -- even though he's kind of old now.. He's had a run of outrageously bad luck.. But he has tremendous speed, punching power, and athletic ability which he displayed in the Chisora domination and 2 comeback fights.

[gilgamesh]

Haye won 3 Heavyweight Title Fights... The same number of Title Fight wins as Gene Tunney -- and more than Sonny Liston, Max Schmeling, Ingemar Johansson, and other HOF Heavyweight Champions.. He gave up over 100 pounds and nearly a foot of height to Nicolai Valuev.. He beat 2 Heavyweight Champions and one Olympic Gold Medal winner in his 3 Title Fight wins.. His only Heavyweight losses were largely due to injury.

I think Haye will win important fights in the future -- even though he's kind of old now.. He's had a run of outrageously bad luck.. But he has tremendous speed, punching power, and athletic ability which he displayed in the Chisora domination.

Gene Tunney beat Jack Dempsey to win a title. David Haye's wins over Valuev, and a shot John Ruiz pale in comparison.

Also David Haye lives in an era of paper titles. He's never actually been Heavyweight Champion. He's been a contender with a belt at Heavyweight, as is the case with most so called "Champions" of the modern era.

[Kalan]

There's been "paper titles" since the 1960's... Haye would have dominated many past eras if he could remain injury free... Which I guess he can't.

It can also be argued that Dempsey was about shot when he met Tunney... and it was an era where black Heavyweights were shut out.

[MrGuy]

I would always put Larry ahead of Lennox. He was a better boxer & has a better record in my view

Lewis faced 3 fighters most consider ATG Heavyweights...in Tyson, Holyfield, and Klitschko -- record 3-1 -- losing only to Klitschko IMO

Holmes faced 4 fighters most consider ATG Heavyweights or Light Heavyweights...in Ali, Michael Spinks, Tyson, and Holyfield -- record 1-4

Tyson was totally over the hill. Holyfield wasnt, but was fading badly. Klitschko beat nobodies, but gets an ATG ststus for giving Lewis a good fight. Seriously? Holmes beat Spinks in the rematch, and came out of retirement to fight the others.

[MrGuy]

I personally believe Lennox Lewis on his A-game had the tools to beat any heavyweight in history. Yes Lewis was clipped by some decent heavyweights and got KOed. The heavyweight division has a history of being the most unpredictable and unforgiving weight class based on them being big dudes throwing big shots.

He is most certainly in Larry Holmes class and I see it as a pick'em fight.

Thats how I see it, us fans over analyse everything, when you hear boxers talk they all say it only takes on punch and its true, especially with HWs. Upsets happen all the time and no one is unbeatable. Some matchups are always likely to be one sided, I can't envisage Spinks ever beating Tyson or Patterson ever beating Liston, but I would put Lewis in with any HW in history and he has the ability to beat them all. You can't say that about many other HWs

I can imagine Lewis beating everybody but Anthony Joshua... That jab and right counter of AJ's... There's no possible way Lewis gets away from those ATG weapons for 12... He would tire and slow and AJ would pounce all over him like he did Wladimir... I also thought Wladimir Klitschko matched up well with Lewis.. Bigger and taller.. A quicker trigger on a smoother jab and better timing than Lewis.. Also, circa 2011, a better and faster right counter and straight right lead than either Lewis or his brother Vitali... Also a quicker and shorter left hook than about anybody.. Also Wlad at his best was a more difficult target than Lewis -- who tended to bull straight in with his head and start brawling... Even after Lewis developed superb boxing skills he brawled and took big risks.. His chin was out there and he did get tagged.. But I still like him over Holmes.

Not a Lewis fan. But Joshua has beat nobody but an overrated shot Klitschko. Shouldnt be brought up in the same sentence as Holmes or Lewis.

[littlepug]

Not much between Holmes and Lewis for me, could both easily be top 5, Joshua on the other hand still has a long way to go to get into the conversation, he has promise but we won't know for sure until he can show us a few years worth of consistency at top level.

[MrGuy]

Lewis faced 3 fighters most consider ATG Heavyweights...in Tyson, Holyfield, and Klitschko -- record 3-1 -- losing only to Klitschko IMO

Holmes faced 4 fighters most consider ATG Heavyweights or Light Heavyweights...in Ali, Michael Spinks, Tyson, and Holyfield -- record 1-4

Tyson was totally over the hill. Holyfield wasnt, but was fading badly. Klitschko beat nobodies, but gets an ATG ststus for giving Lewis a good fight. Seriously? Holmes beat Spinks in the rematch, and came out of retirement to fight the others.

When was this exactly?

Because some of us are utterly confused by this sweeping statement. The reason being is because some of his more moronic fanboys would wish us believe it was when he was 23 years old, and got battered then KO'd by James Douglas. Others not quite so fukking stupid would have us believe it was when the 4 years older Holyfield battered. then TKO'd him in 1996. Finally the " even " less mesmerized would tell us it was when Lewis, Williams, and McBride beat him into submission.

For me the issue is quite simple.

Is the 38 year old Tyson entitled to heroic status, and every kind of excuse imaginable to man for his defeats, whilst Lennox Lewis is labelled a coward by verminous halfwits for retiring at the very same age, and going out on a win?

It was a response that defies your logic because it makes sense. When was what? Holmes did get screwed in the rematch. You dont have knowledge of the sport do you? Fighters get shot at different ages. The point isn't Tyson or Holyfield. Its he Lewis hype job over fighting guys who were done or near done.

[MrGuy]

It was a response that defies your logic because it makes sense. When was what? Holmes did get screwed in the rematch. You dont have knowledge of the sport do you? Fighters get shot at different ages. The point isn't Tyson or Holyfield. Its he Lewis hype job over fighting guys who were done or near done.

You are obviously Kolon under another name.

I look forward to your bullshitt explanation as to why King paid Lewis 4 million step aside money so that Tyson could fight Bruce Seldon, for the WBA title with the " guarantee " that Tyson would fight Lewis next. In the event Tyson actually surrendered the WBC belt and fought what they considered to be a SHOT Holyfield instead for the WBA strap.

As for the 36 year old Holmes being beaten or not by Spinks, it is of as much importance to me as 2 flies crawling up a window pane, but slightly more important than Tyson beating a 38 year old Holmes who hadn't fought in 20 months.

I look forward to next example of your superior " knowledge " of the sport.

You are obviously a moron. Why are we talking about Lewis? Why did Lewis take that money? Tyson I believe was unifying the title. One more fight and Lewis starts screaming for a shot. Why not let Tyson do the dirty work and unify? Because he knew Tyson wasnt going to have a risky fight before unifying. This way he could look like a tough guy. Spinks......you brought up those fighters in the first place.

[MrGuy]

You are obviously Kolon under another name.

I look forward to your bullshitt explanation as to why King paid Lewis 4 million step aside money so that Tyson could fight Bruce Seldon, for the WBA title with the " guarantee " that Tyson would fight Lewis next. In the event Tyson actually surrendered the WBC belt and fought what they considered to be a SHOT Holyfield instead for the WBA strap.

As for the 36 year old Holmes being beaten or not by Spinks, it is of as much importance to me as 2 flies crawling up a window pane, but slightly more important than Tyson beating a 38 year old Holmes who hadn't fought in 20 months.

I look forward to next example of your superior " knowledge " of the sport.

You are obviously a moron. Why are we talking about Lewis? Why did Lewis take that money? Tyson I believe was unifying the title. One more fight and Lewis starts screaming for a shot. Why not let Tyson do the dirty work and unify? Because he knew Tyson wasnt going to have a risky fight before unifying. This way he could look like a tough guy. Spinks......you brought up those fighters in the first place.

Which are you? A junkie or a halfwit? Tyson was unifying NOTHING when he fought Seldon, because 8 weeks later he only defended the WBA strap that he won from Seldon. This was because he RELINQUISHED the WBC strap RATHER than face Lewis. At no stage after Buster Douglas until the end of his career did Tyson ever hold anything other than one title at a time WBC, and the WBA, both of which he held for less than 6 months.

YOU in fact mentioned Spinks first with your irrelevant opinion about Holmes getting " screwed " in the rematch.

His plan was to unify. Didnt he have to fight Lewis or get stripped? All Lewis had to do was wait. Everyone knew is was the same tough guy bs he tried to pull on Bowe. I may be wrong but wasnt he trying to break up a massive pay day for Holyfield and Tyson? Who wouldnt throw it in the trash under those circumstances?

[Crease]

Lennox Lewis: Is He in the Great Larry Holmes' Class?

It seems that over 75% of us have put him in the same pedigree as Larry Holmes.

But I'll say this much, even if Lennox is up there with Larry - there's no way could he be ahead of him. He wasn't as good as Larry, I can't see it.

[MrGuy]

His plan was to unify. Didnt he have to fight Lewis or get stripped? All Lewis had to do was wait. Everyone knew is was the same tough guy bs he tried to pull on Bowe. I may be wrong but wasnt he trying to break up a massive pay day for Holyfield and Tyson? Who wouldnt throw it in the trash under those circumstances?

Yes you are indeed wrong on both counts.

The Bowe-Holyfield and Lewis-Ruddock fights were part of a mini-tournament, whereby all four fighters agreed the two winners would meet each other for the undisputed world heavyweight championship

No tough guy bullshitt required. Bowe reneged on the agreed terms when he realised it would be Lewis standing in the other corner. He must have reckoned on Ruddock coming through.

I don't know what part of " after the Douglas defeat tyson never held 2 titles at the same time " is too difficult for you to comprehend "

The only possible way Tyson could have unified would have been by fighting Lewis in November 96 instead of Holyfield, because Lewis was the WBC's mandatory challenger, and this was the terms of the lawsuit. It is pretty obvious to anyone who isn't a Tyson fanboy Lewis was looking to fight Tyson in 1996, and Tyson was looking to fight anyone OTHER than Lewis.

I believe he did hold two titles.

[MrGuy]

Yes you are indeed wrong on both counts.




No tough guy bullshitt required. Bowe reneged on the agreed terms when he realised it would be Lewis standing in the other corner. He must have reckoned on Ruddock coming through.

I don't know what part of " after the Douglas defeat tyson never held 2 titles at the same time " is too difficult for you to comprehend "

The only possible way Tyson could have unified would have been by fighting Lewis in November 96 instead of Holyfield, because Lewis was the WBC's mandatory challenger, and this was the terms of the lawsuit. It is pretty obvious to anyone who isn't a Tyson fanboy Lewis was looking to fight Tyson in 1996, and Tyson was looking to fight anyone OTHER than Lewis.

I believe he did hold two titles.

You can believe in father christmas if you like, amounts to the same thing.
[/quote
Because everyone imagined he beat Bruno and Seldon back to back to win the WBA and WBC titles. He was offered a fight with Bowe, then asked for to much money. Was offered 13 million for Tyson and refused it. Wouldnt budge so King offered him step aside money for the Seldon fight, with the promise he fight Lewis next. Of course the big Holyfield offer came along so he was asked to wait. Trend with Lewis. Ask for way to much. When they refuse claim you were ducked.

[bigjack]

Lewis's losses were both down to one single right hand punch,he wasn't outboxed or out punched or even bullied by anyone for an entire fight,he dropped his guard twice and paid the price,great all round ability but Holmes for me had the far superior jab and was faster with amazing powers of recovery,something Lewis lacked on those 2 occasions.

[MrGuy]

And here was me thinking there was only one liar on Boxrec, Kolon.

A couple of weeks earlier in London, Bowe's old Olympic rival, Lennox Lewis, knocked out Canadian Donovan "Razor" Ruddock in two rounds, establishing himself as the World Boxing Council's number one contender. The Bowe-Holyfield and Lewis-Ruddock fights were part of a mini-tournament, whereby all four fighters agreed the two winners would meet each other for the undisputed world heavyweight championship. Bowe's manager Rock Newman made a proposal: the $32 million purse HBO was offering should be split 90-10 in Bowe's favor, an 'absurd' offer which Lennox Lewis rejected

Throughout his career Lewis refused to get tied up with toerags, especially Murica toerags like Newman and King.

He turned down the offer from King because wanted options on further fights, and Lewis was far too clever to fall for that shite.

As he himself said about the verminous King. " How can you do business with a guy who talks non stop for 15 minutes and yet says absolutely fuk all?"

The challenger typically doesnt make anywhere near what the champ does. He could've made millons but got greedy. I think he would've beat the overrated Bowe. All he had to do was take the money, thrash him, then he could dictate purse size. Turning down 13 million for the other fight is ridiculous. For some reason he actually didnt want those fights. If Lewis was top contender King couldnt have demanded anything.

[MrGuy]

And here was me thinking there was only one liar on Boxrec, Kolon.



Throughout his career Lewis refused to get tied up with toerags, especially Murica toerags like Newman and King.

He turned down the offer from King because wanted options on further fights, and Lewis was far too clever to fall for that shite.

As he himself said about the verminous King. " How can you do business with a guy who talks non stop for 15 minutes and yet says absolutely fuk all?"

The challenger typically doesnt make anywhere near what the champ does. He could've made millons but got greedy. I think he would've beat the overrated Bowe. All he had to do was take the money, thrash him, then he could dictate purse size. Turning down 13 million for the other fight is ridiculous. For some reason he actually didnt want those fights. If Lewis was top contender King couldnt have demanded anything.

Are you nuts, or are you just trying to act like a fool?

The lowlife vermin King tried to demand EVERYTHING from EVERY fighter he ever dealt with. That is EXACTLY why he is considered to be a 2 bob lump of pig shitt, by EVERY fighter who is neither stupid, Murican, or both.

Lewis was NOT a " challenger " for the gutless Bowe's or the cowardly Tyson's belts. He was considered to be the MANDATORY challenger by the WBC in both instances. If you have an issue with the WBC, that is your problem, NOT Lennox Lewis's.

An insignificant piece of Murican garbage like Rock Newman could NEVER earn the right to decide what Lennox Lewis was worth. The fact that his fellow Murican gutless fighter called Bowe hid behind Newmans coat tails says far more about them, than it says about Lewis.

The reality is Lennox Lewis was NEVER going to be some poor innocent goat herder in Afghanistan, or some housewife in Iraq, waiting for lowlife Muricans to bomb them to death from 80, 000 feet. He was both willing, and able to have a fight.

A mandatory who asked for a far greater sum of money than he was worth. The challenger usually doesnt get anywhere near what the champ does. Lewis starched Ruddock. Great.. What did he do outside that? Beat a collection of tomato cans. You dont crush cans, knock off one worthy contender, then start making outlandish demands. His team doesnt get to price him out of the market, then claim everyone was afraid of him.

[MrGuy]

Are you nuts, or are you just trying to act like a fool?

The lowlife vermin King tried to demand EVERYTHING from EVERY fighter he ever dealt with. That is EXACTLY why he is considered to be a 2 bob lump of pig shitt, by EVERY fighter who is neither stupid, Murican, or both.

Lewis was NOT a " challenger " for the gutless Bowe's or the cowardly Tyson's belts. He was considered to be the MANDATORY challenger by the WBC in both instances. If you have an issue with the WBC, that is your problem, NOT Lennox Lewis's.

An insignificant piece of Murican garbage like Rock Newman could NEVER earn the right to decide what Lennox Lewis was worth. The fact that his fellow Murican gutless fighter called Bowe hid behind Newmans coat tails says far more about them, than it says about Lewis.

The reality is Lennox Lewis was NEVER going to be some poor innocent goat herder in Afghanistan, or some housewife in Iraq, waiting for lowlife Muricans to bomb them to death from 80, 000 feet. He was both willing, and able to have a fight.

A mandatory who asked for a far greater sum of money than he was worth.

In your worthless opinion. Seeing as Bowe, and tyson are both worth less than pig shite, and Lewis is worth more than 100 million dollars I'd say that puts his way of pricing way above theirs, and indeed yours.

So he has the right to demand as much if not more than the champ, because in your eyes he's better? Doesn't work that way unless you're a legend. He then wasn't.

[Tomasino]

To be fair, the reffing in the Lewis v Bowe gold medal match was terrible and it was a bizarre stoppage. Bowe outpunched Lewis in the first. Then was stopped on his feet in the second after one clean punch hurt him a bit.

[MrGuy]

In your worthless opinion. Seeing as Bowe, and tyson are both worth less than pig shite, and Lewis is worth more than 100 million dollars I'd say that puts his way of pricing way above theirs, and indeed yours.

So he has the right to demand as much if not more than the champ, because in your eyes he's better? Doesn't work that way unless you're a legend. He then wasn't.

He has the right to demand what he likes, the same as every other fighter. The sticking point is whether or not they get it?

Conversely anyone with a brain knows that offering a guy 3 million out of a 32 million pot, especially when that guy has already stopped your boy ( albeit in the Olympic final ) is blatantly ducking him. That desultory offer was the cowardly Bowe, and his even more cowardly managers way of avoiding Lewis at all costs.

Again I have zero interest in either your opinions or excuses. The FACTS are Lewis stopped Bowe in the second round when the met in the Olympic final. The other FACT is Bowe signed up four a 4 man tournament which included Ruddock, Holyfield, and Lewis with the 2 winners of the first round meeting for the WBC strap.

The gutless Bowe reneged on the deal, end of story.

He has the right to name his price. Not have over 3 million offered, turn it down, then scream his opponent is afraid. No tournament deal or low price when he refused to fight Tyson for 13 million.

[elmersalsa]

Lennox Lewis: Is He in the Great Larry Holmes' Class?

It seems that over 75% of us have put him in the same pedigree as Larry Holmes.

But I'll say this much, even if Lennox is up there with Larry - there's no way could he be ahead of him. He wasn't as good as Larry, I can't see it.

Maybe the great Larry Holmes wasn't that likeable after all. I just don't see how Lennox Lewis is in the same class with him. Lennox to me is not even in the top 100 greatest boxers of all time pound per pound. Holmes is top 50 atg pound per pound fighter. That's how big of a stretch I got between them.

[Boxing Writer]

I rank Holmes as a clear #3 heavyweight of all time after Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis. Lewis is about #7 in my list. That's based on achievements. Head to head both are in my top-5.

[cfang]

Lewis is easily in Larry's class. In fact I think he's a greater fighter. Holmes is somewhat overated on these forums these days. His best wins? Well Cooney, a young witherspoon, erm an old Norton erm. there's not a lot really. He certainly beat some crummy fighters as champion and lost to Spinks and Tyson. Don't get me wrong I grew up watching holmes and saw all his fights, a great heavy for sure.

Lewis - well you've got holyfield, Tyson, Vlad K, Mercer, Mcall, Tua, he killed Ruddock who really gave tyson all he could handle. Lewis defo in holmes class and i reckon had a much stronger qoo