The Last of "the Great White Hopes"

[Caractacus]

i remember back in the late 1960's when Howard Sacklers play "the Great White Hope" was playing on Broadway and then toured the country.
It caused a re-newed interest in the career of Jack Johnson.
In 1970 it was made into a major motion picture starring James Earl Jones.
when I saw the film with my parents at the cinema,I remember it seemed so far back in time to relate with,
like over hundred years ago,but the events actually was only 60 years earlier.
and I remember being surprised to read later in the early 1970's that one of the more famous "Great White Hopes"
was stil around (Gunboat Smith who lived until 1974).
What other "Great White Hopes" had lived up to the 1960's and 1970's ?

[Caractacus]

Australian HW Bill Squires had lived up to September 1962 (age 83 years old)
He fought Tommy Burns twice for the title

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Bill_Squires

[Caractacus]

check this out.
Tommy Burns defending the title against Bill Squires .
( watch for the great Jim J. jeffries as the referee) but How could you possibly miss seeing him in the ring ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUDIXdef9rU

[Caractacus]

-The Fabulous Fifties-

Tom Cowler-1951 (58) ( *fought Jack Johnson)
Carl "The Sapulcha Giant" Morris-1951 (64)
William Hague-1951 (65)
Bill Lang-1952 (69)
Jim j. Jeffries-1953 (77) (* fought Jack Johnson)
Tommy Burns-1955 (73) (* fought Jack Johnson)
George Rodel-1955 (67)
Al Kaufman-1957 (71) (*fought and sparred with Jack Johnson)
Victor McLaglen-1959 (75) (* fought Jack Johnson)
Jim Coffey-1959 (68)

- The Swinging Sixties-
Mike Schreck-1960 (79)
Bill Squires-1962 (73)
"Roarin" Al Reich - 1963. (73 y)
Tom Kennedy -1965 ( 81 y)
Bombardier Billy Wells- 1967 (77)
Frank Moran-1967 (80) ( *fought Jack Johnson)
George Hackenschmidt 1968 (age 90)
Jess Willard-1968 (age 87) ( *fought Jack Johnson)

-The sensational 70's-

Homer Smith 1971 (75) (* fought Jack Johnson)
Fred Fulton 1973 (82)
Gunboat Smith-1974 (87) (* sparred with Jack Johnson)
Georges Carpenter -1975 (81) ( * sparred with Jack Johnson)

[BitPlayer]

I'm not sure you can consider white people that fought white champions (or actually were champs in Willard's case) white hopes.

[Caractacus]

I'm not sure if I get the gist of your thread .
I'm using the term in a general sense because the ultimate goal was to find someone who could dis-patch Jack Johnson.
Techinacally I suppose a real White Hope would be someone from anywhere
who took up pugilim between the day after The Fourth of July 1910 ,
or just before April 1915(when Jess Willard knocked out Johnson in Cuba) if, only to make some cash in doing it.
I was just curious to know who all from that era was still alive
when the re-newed interest in Jack Johnson came about in the late 1960's.
( possibly they could have be inter-viewed for a boxing magazine)

Put it this way,I became interested in the history of Boxing in 1974,
not too long after Bruce Lee had died (june 1973),who would'nt be able to make any more movies because he was dead at that point.
So I think it would have been cool to meet someone from that era of Boxing that I read books about in the Public Library,
because they would have seemed like a relict from the Jurassic Age to me.

[BitPlayer]

It'd have to be the guys that challenged Jack Johnson really, dunno maybe you could call some of the people that fought Joe Louis and later white hopes, I don't know enough the boxing politics at those times.


Stanley Ketchel 1910
James J. Jeffries* 1953
Fireman Jim Flynn 1935
Frank Moran 1967
Jess Willard 1968


Though Ketchel was such a good middleweight, and Jeffries was such a good heavyweight in his prime, I don't think either should be remembered as white hopes (even if Jeffries was THE White hope).

So it's Willard if you can't him (I'm not so sure since he won), and Moran if you don't.

[Caractacus]

just want to know who was alive from back then in the late 1960's-1970's
who may have even remotely participated in the White Hope sweep-stakes back then,
not interested in how good or bad their boxing ability was,
just if they were still around in 1974 when maybe I could have still gotten an autograph for my scrapebook if they were still well enough to do it.
because It would have almost seemed like seeing a Frozen Wolly Mammoth being resurrected to me,that's all.

[Kalan]

The idea of a white hope is stupid... It implies that people hope somebody wins for no other reason then being their race... Courage, integrity, mastery, personality, and general character don't mean anything... We need a man of our race to be the champ -- screw the other races.

[Ambling Alp II]

just want to know who was alive from back then in the late 1960's-1970's
who may have even remotely participated in the White Hope sweep-stakes back then,
not interested in how good or bad their boxing ability was,
just if they were still around in 1974 when maybe I could have still gotten an autograph for my scrapebook if they were still well enough to do it.
because It would have almost seemed like seeing a Frozen Wolly Mammoth being resurrected to me,that's all.

Georges Carpentier was the last Great White Hope Champion. Not sure how much he cared about that "title".
He died in 1975.

[scorpio83]

Victor McLaglen-1959 (75)
Jim Coffey-1959 (68)

"Roarin" Al Reich - 1963. (73 y)
Tom Kennedy -1965 ( 81 y)
Bombardier Billy Wells- 1967 (77)
Frank Moran-1967 (80)
George Hackenschmidt 1968 (age 90)
Jess Willard-1968 (age 77)

Homer Smith 1971 (75)
Fred Fulton 1973 (82)
Gunboat Smith-1974 (87)
Georges Carpenter -1975 (81)

Actually Jess Willard was 87 not 77 when he passed away in 1968 because he was born December 29, 1881.

[Caractacus]

Georges Carpentier was the last Great White Hope Champion. Not sure how much he cared about that "title".
He died in 1975.

maybe because he had won that "'un-official title" due to a foul with his fight with Gunboat Smith in London in July 1914.
Carpentier was winning the early rounds but around the 6th round The Gunner was backing him up.
Carpentier threw a big right hand that missed and slipped to canvas,as he was getting up but still on his knees
Gunboat Smith threw a right that clipped the top of Carpentier's head and hurt him.The ref called it a foul
and Carpentier won the title by DQ.

[Caractacus]

I think the reasoning of the real idea of this thread is.
Is the question of :
Who was the very last person known that had actually laced on a pair of gloves and gotten into the ring with Jack Johnson ?
actual fights,exhibition or even just sparred with Jack Johnson in his later years when he was still alive and therefore able to 'trade some leather".
Homer Smith (who died in 1971) fought Jack Johnson in a ten-rounder in the 1920's (Johnson said he knocked him down 16 times)
I think from this list compiled it has to have been Gunboat Smith who was Johnson's sparring partner in 1910 and died in 1974.
and with that passing it was truely the end of an era

[Caractacus]

Hey,I just now remembered.
Georges Carpentier had once sparred with Jack Johnson when he came to Paris France in 1911.
Carpentier also referred the Johnson vrs Moran title fight.
So it was actually Georges Carpentier who may have been the last person living
who had laced up the gloves against Jack Johnson.
Carpentier died in 1975,so that was the end of the last rement of those times.
What were you doing October.28.1975 when the era passed ?
(unless of course there was someone(s) still alive who may have gotten into the ring
with Jack Johnson maybe in his traveling tent show in the 1930's to June 1941)

[funso banjo baby]

most of the great white hope's had fought and lost to each other regularly.

it was a bit like the current south American heavyweight scene

[Caractacus]

Georges Carpentier was only 17 yrs old (and the welter-weight Champion of France) when he did a few exhibitions
with Jack Johnson at Magic City in Montmarte(Paris) France. in August-September 1911.
2 years later he appeared with Jack Johnson in the short JACK JOHNSON'S ADVENTURES IN PARIS(1913)
Carpentier fights Jack Johnson in the ring in that film.

[Tony1244]

Jerry Quarry, Gerry Cooney, and Tommy Morrison were the modern great white hopes.

When the Klitschkos hit the scene, Americans became disinterested in the great white hope process, which frankly surprised me.

I understand the thread is about finding someone to beat Jack Johnson. But I have known many Americans who aren't racist, frankly some were quite liberal on civil rights, who were boxing fans that wanted a white hope. Interesting phenomena.

[Kalan]

Hmmm.... I didn't notice that. I noticed that most Democrats were for Holmes and Republicans were solidly for Cooney, which made sense. So called "Political Conservatives" are generally impressed with money, hype, salesmanship, and BS. They're decidedly anti-analytical. Trump types go for appearance and bluster. They tend to think they're better and smarter than anyone else regardless of how mediocre their personal circumstances are. A lot of them are more nationalistic "America First" types than racist. That's why they had no interest in the Klitschkos, who were very successful but drew little notice from southern US rednecks -- because they came from a "Communist" region of the world.

I did notice that Sugar Ray Leonard picked Cooney to beat Holmes, which surprised me. Ali thought Cooney had a good chance and made some interesting remarks about his punching power. I don't remember who George Foreman was for, but it wouldn't have surprised me if he picked Cooney. I wasn't at all impressed with Cooney because his game was so limited. I knew Lyle, Young, and Norton were done when he fought them. They seemed very intimidated mentally. Boxing is a mental game and Holmes wasn't impressed with anybody. I felt he'd win easy.

Cooney lacked sophistication on defense and he lacked coaching. I noticed a deterioration in Cooney's physical appearance. He seemed to be caving in from all the great white hype crap. All that ridiculous adulation for no reason was getting to him. External pressures mean a lot in Boxing. You need the haters and negativity to help drive you. When people start hailing you as the Messiah, you're headed for a fall. Take the careers of Tyson, Foreman, Ali, Louis, Dempsey or whoever -- once you shake off the doubters you relax a little. Cooney fell off a cliff.

I don't think Morrison impressed that many people. He seemed to have 2 left feet.

Jerry Quarry impressed many people. Angelo Dundee thought Quarry would easily beat Frazier, but I always secretly thought Dundee was a motor mouth who didn't know a damned thing. He was great with people though. He was one of those guys who everyone liked and respected because he was dependable and had his shitt together -- in a game where there's so many flakes, he stood out because he kept the trains running on time. "I'll send a car to pick you up at 2 so be ready cuz we're not waiting for you." It would be there at 1:55. But getting back to Quarry. Where I don't think Cooney could GAF less about color, Quarry was a bit of a redneck. His work ethic was up and down once he started making a comfortable income. He had a bad attitude. He said he "hated" Boxing and wished he'd pursued Baseball. He knocked a lot of home runs out in Super Stars batting competition -- which is the only thing he was really good at during that event.

[Caractacus]

Here are some years when some of the more well known black opponents of Jack Johnson lived to be.

Sam Langford-1956 (72)
Joe Jeanette-1958 (78)
Harry Wills-1958 (69) (*sparred with Jack Johnson)

[Caractacus]

anyone know who the last persons were (thats been recorded)to have actually laced up a pair of gloves
and plant a jab into any one of these here champion's puss's ?
when they passed on and ended an era with them.
(either actual boxing contest,in a exhibition or even a sparring session)

Bob Fitzsimmons d. 1917
John. L Sullivan d.1918
Marvin Hart d.1931
Jim J. Corbett d.1933
Jim J. Jeffries d. 1953
Tommy Burns d.1955

[Caractacus]

Would anyone here possibly have a listing of the 23 entrees into the
"New York Great White Hope Tournament"
which was held at the New York Athletic Club NYC
May.26.1911.
( entries weighing from 105 lbs to 280 lbs).
Reporedly only 11 fighters actually participated in it though.

Each bout was schedled for 4 rounds
in a round-robin tournament that lasted the entire day and evening.
( with Jack Johnson in addendance at ring-side)

I was wondering if any of the younger entrees amy have lived up until the 1960's or even later.
( some may call this trivia,but I like to call it History)

[Caractacus]

Oscar W. Stuckey "the Florida Hercules"age 20 yrs , ht 6 ft 9" tall( discovered by Jim J. Corbett for the tournament)
Miles McLeod ( discovered by Joe Choynski in Missouri)was part of Choynski Vaudville sparring act.
Herman Tracey (from Bradford Illinois,280 lbs,reportedly had killed an ox with one blow)
Joe Rodgers ( A 266 lb wrestler )
Fred McKay (aka Fred McLaglen-Victor McLaglens brother)
Sailor White
Al Palzer
also one participant was a "Philadelphia slugger"
and another"the Amateur HW Boxing champion of Canada"
also one was finaced by a wealthy Texan backer. ,
(source Unforgivable Blackness by Geoffrey Ward)

if anyone can add some additional names of other participants
and how the bouts went that led to the final bout of
Al Palzer vrs Sailor White for "the White Heavyweight Championship
would be appreciated".

[Caractacus]

check out this newspaper article published May.27.1911.
it contains the names of some of the fighters actually involved in the tournament.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 8297&hl=en

[Caractacus]

(in 1960)
Bombardier Billy Wells-age 71 yrs
Jimmy Wilde-68 yrs.
Ted Kid Lewis-67 yrs
Georges Carpentier-66 yrs

Len Harvey-53 yrs
Jack Kid Berg-51 yrs

Freddie Mills-41 yrs
Terry Downs-24 yrs

[Caractacus]

BTW Who is the dude at :18 that the annoucer claims to have knocked out Georges Carpentier?
Ted Broderick or Ted Broadwithe ?
I don't think I have ever heard of him.
did he fight under an alias ?