Tommy Burns against modern Heavyweights

[BoxBuzz]

I wasn't trying to be factual about your birth... I was being sarcastic about your lack of intelligence and your sheer pomposity.

You think you're clever... You're just a pain in the ain...

If you want to go through points of my above post and dispute them, try that... You lack the reasoning capacity to do that so you broadside.

Never pompous....bombastic on occasion perhaps...but never pompous.

[Cojimar 1946]

Yes but the optimal size for heavyweights may shift when people on average get bigger and the population increases. This would lead too a much larger pool of big men. If you have a larger sample size there is a greater probability that exceptional fighters will emerge. Back in the 40s, 50s, 60s people were smaller on average. There would have been far fewer men the size of Anthony Joshua or Wladimir Klitschko in the population.

[Kalan]

Brilliant deduction.

[Ambling Alp II]

Yes but the optimal size for heavyweights may shift when people on average get bigger and the population increases. This would lead too a much larger pool of big men. If you have a larger sample size there is a greater probability that exceptional fighters will emerge. Back in the 40s, 50s, 60s people were smaller on average. There would have been far fewer men the size of Anthony Joshua or Wladimir Klitschko in the population.

There is a larger pool of big men. Therefore, you would think there will be a rare exception where one of them will emerge as a exceptional fighter. So far there has been Lewis and and for a shorter time Bowe.

[APerno]

Back in the 1980s some guy writing for one of the boxing magazines argued that the 'real' heavyweight champion is probably a 6' 7" 280 lb defense end playing in the NFL. One has to wonder, if there was no NFL or NBA just how big would the HWs today be?

P.S. I don't agree with the sentiment.

[Kalan]

There is a larger pool of big men. Therefore, you would think there will be a rare exception where one of them will emerge as a exceptional fighter. So far there has been Lewis and and for a shorter time Bowe.

Lewis and Bowe weren't exceptionally fast, coordinated, or elusive for big men. They had their feet stuck in the mud a bit.

The Klitschko Bros and Anthony Joshua were much faster and better Heavyweights -- as well as bigger, taller, and more skilled. Anthony Joshua is the only Heavyweight Champion in History who has a 100% win ratio and 100% KO ratio. Vitali Klitschko is the only Heavyweight Champion in history who's never been knocked down and was never was behind on points after any fight. Joshua has one of the best jabs and the sharpest right counter of any Heavyweight Champion. Lewis missed Vitali by 3 feet with some of his wild assed swings at his copiously bleeding opponent.

The quick Herbie Hide easily outboxed the much bigger and stronger Bowe for 3 rounds... Bowe had to start brawling and fouling like crazy to get Hide out.. Vitali Klitschko had no such problems dealing with Hide's speed.. He figured him out and lined the little tyke up quickly for a clean finish, administrating his 25th straight KO and taking Hide's Heavyweight Title. The ponderous, stodgy, dimwitted, and very slow Golota beat the crap out of the slow and wide open and equally dimwitted Bowe -- but the foul crazy punching bag got quickly hammered out in the 1st or 2nd round by the faster and sharper Tyson, Brewster, and Lewis -- who couldn't miss him with a punch. Bowe hit a lot of air and got smacked right in the puss for a couple of knockdowns. He couldn't defend himself and broke down early in his career.

Lewis, although much faster and smarter than Bowe, lacked the speed of a Cruiserweight.. He got lined up for KO shots on occasion -- by huge underdogs who got hold of his chin. Vitali Klitschko easily outboxed Lewis and nearly knocked him out in the first 2 rounds. Lewis was badly rocked and hurt. It was a fight Vitali took on 2 weeks notice while Lewis had been training for a Heavyweight Championship Fight for months.

A desperate Lewis slashed open Vitali's left eyelid with a right hand thumb strike and a holding and hitting palm rake 20 seconds into the 3rd round. The referee looked right at the fouls and did nothing. Blood streamed into Vitali's left eye allowing Lewis to hit him with a few full bore punches that had no effect on Vitali. VK was winning on all scorecards after the fight was halted on those cuts after 6. The referee failed to send the fight to the scorecards -- though he warned Lewis about flagrant face palming during the fight as Lewis attempted to open the cuts further.

Just as the first Lewis-Holyfield Fight, the first Pacquiao-Bradley Fight, the GGG-Canelo Fight, the Kovalev-Ward Fights, the first Hagler-Antuofermo Fight, the Whitaker-Chavez Fight, the Lewis-Klitschko Fight bears an official result that doesn't match what happened in the ring.

[Cojimar 1946]

As I have noted numerous times greatness is something that people disagree on (especially people from different generations). Back in the day you could find people who rated Jeffries ahead of Ali (a position that most people on this board would ridicule).

Since the mid-1990s the heavyweight division has been dominated by 240+ heavyweights with the top fighter being 240+ along with numerous other contenders of this size. However, in other eras fighters of this size virtually never could even make it into the top 10, in fact barely any of them even cracked the top 20. The fact that giant heavyweights are vastly more successful these days than in the past seems like fairly compelling evidence that they have improved. Even in eras that were generally regarded as poor eras (1930s and 1980s for example) we see barely any examples of them having success at the top level.

[RandomPoster]

As I have noted numerous times greatness is something that people disagree on (especially people from different generations). Back in the day you could find people who rated Jeffries ahead of Ali (a position that most people on this board would ridicule).

Since the mid-1990s the heavyweight division has been dominated by 240+ heavyweights with the top fighter being 240+ along with numerous other contenders of this size. However, in other eras fighters of this size virtually never could even make it into the top 10, in fact barely any of them even cracked the top 20. The fact that giant heavyweights are vastly more successful these days than in the past seems like fairly compelling evidence that they have improved. Even in eras that were generally regarded as poor eras (1930s and 1980s for example) we see barely any examples of them having success at the top level.

The talent pool of very large heavyweights has increased considerably as both the overall population and the average size within that population has increased. The combination of these factors increases the likelihood of a few individuals coming out blessed with both large size and good "pound-for-pound" attributes. Some of the guys that were top 20 from 1930-1960 would have never have gotten in the top 200 if they had been normal sized.

[Ambling Alp II]

There were several really big heavyweights from 1930-1960. Very few really of them were contenders. However, there were a lot of good small-ideally sized heavyweights who consistently beat them.

[Kalan]

But Burns had a lot of title defenses. That automatically makes him a serious threat against anyone.

I know you're being sarcastic, but as soon as he fought his logical challenger instead of setups, It was as Jack London described.

"Fight? ... There was no fight... It was a pigmy against a colossus”

[Cojimar 1946]

In any case pointing out that giant heavyweights of more recent times are generally not regarded as ATGs is not terribly relevant. I don't find the arguments against Wladimir's greatness to be very persuasive but some people seem to take issue with some of the erratic performances early in his career.

My basic argument is that regardless of whether you consider them ATGs or not more modern giant heavyweights are clearly an improvement over the giants of earlier eras. These days the top 10 are dominated by giant heavyweights while in the past they rarely entered the top 10 or even the top 20.

For example, in his prime Ike Ibeabuchi weighed about 240 pounds (he was 235 vs Tua and 244 vs Byrd). He clearly seems like an improvement over the big men of the 70s. The best heavyweights of that size back then were guys like Roy Williams and Jack O'Halloran.

[Kalan]

In any case pointing out that giant heavyweights of more recent times are generally not regarded as ATGs is not terribly relevant. I don't find the arguments against Wladimir's greatness to be very persuasive but some people seem to take issue with some of the erratic performances early in his career.

My basic argument is that regardless of whether you consider them ATGs or not more modern giant heavyweights are clearly an improvement over the giants of earlier eras. These days the top 10 are dominated by giant heavyweights while in the past they rarely entered the top 10 or even the top 20.

For example, in his prime Ike Ibeabuchi weighed about 240 pounds (he was 235 vs Tua and 244 vs Byrd). He clearly seems like an improvement over the big men of the 70s. The best heavyweights of that size back then were guys like Roy Williams and Jack O'Halloran

That's a great comment... Ike Ibeabuchi, LennoxLewis, the Vitali Klitschko, Wladimir Klitschko, and Anytony Joshua are obviously better than woefully inept large men such as Jess Willard, Primo Carnea, Abe Simon, Buddy Baer, Riddick Bowe, and Andrew Golota... The human race is evolving and players in the NBA and NFL are getting bigger, stronger, and faster as well.... Because most all the best big men haven't been Americans they've been down played as well...

[Ambling Alp II]

In any case pointing out that giant heavyweights of more recent times are generally not regarded as ATGs is not terribly relevant. I don't find the arguments against Wladimir's greatness to be very persuasive but some people seem to take issue with some of the erratic performances early in his career.

My basic argument is that regardless of whether you consider them ATGs or not more modern giant heavyweights are clearly an improvement over the giants of earlier eras. These days the top 10 are dominated by giant heavyweights while in the past they rarely entered the top 10 or even the top 20.

For example, in his prime Ike Ibeabuchi weighed about 240 pounds (he was 235 vs Tua and 244 vs Byrd). He clearly seems like an improvement over the big men of the 70s. The best heavyweights of that size back then were guys like Roy Williams and Jack O'Halloran.

The main reason that big fighters had done well recently is that the division is so weak. There are very few ideally sized heavyweights around. If just about all the heavyweights are big, then yes the top ones are going to be big.

Ibeabuchi is not exactly a great example. He had a grand total of two fights against decent competition.
Not hard at all to imagine Roy Williams winning a WBS title in the last 15 years.
Joe Bugner would have been a long time champion with several WBS title defenses and would have been in the HOF.

Going further back, Willard and Carnera, still would have won titles. Buddy Baer and Buster Mathis would have as well, but they were unable to in their day.
fighters like Carl Morris and Abe Simon may have as well.

[Kalan]

The main reason that big fighters had done well recently is that the division is so weak. There are very few ideally sized heavyweights around. If just about all the heavyweights are big, then yes the top ones are going to be big.

Ibeabuchi is not exactly a great example. He had a grand total of two fights against decent competition.
Not hard at all to imagine Roy Williams winning a WBS title in the last 15 years.
Joe Bugner would have been a long time champion with several WBS title defenses and would have been in the HOF.

Going further back, Willard and Carnera, still would have won titles. Buddy Baer and Buster Mathis would have as well, but they were unable to in their day. fighters like Carl Morris and Abe Simon may have as well.

The Heavyweight Division is easily the strongest it’s ever been talent wise.

In fact... scores of Heavyweights in the 21st Century have been massive in height, weight, and reach---but lacked the overall physical and mental gifts, coaching, skills, athleticism, heart, and ambition to approach a Heavyweight Title.. Dominic Breazeale... Alexander Dimitrenko.... Mariusz Wach.... Robert Helenius.... Michael Grant.... Tye Fields... David Price.... Julius Long.... and scores of lesser big Heavyweights just can't make the grade today because there are so many huge men who are so much better and work harder than any of the big fellows who came before them.

And it’s not how many fights Ike Ibeabuchi had against world class Heavyweights... It’s WHEN Ike took those fights (when he had 16 and 19 fights experience) and HOW improved he looked destroying master boxer Chris Byrd only 3 fights after beating David Tua by impressive UD when he had only 16 fights... Ike slipped punches well and ripped Byrd with extremely sharp combinations to head and body.. Ike was having a wonderful time in there - because he was completely at ease against the powerless putz Byrd – much like Wlad was when he easily mastered the mismatched, 6’2” X 213-pound tyke who had nothing whatever to show him.

And as for the miserable athletes you're trying to offer up as talented big men who could win a title.

Joe Bugner was about the clumsiest punching bag there ever was.. He couldn’t slip or duck a punch.. Little bitty Marvis Frazier, who was 9-0 and only 200 pounds, easily boxed the ass off of Bugner, who was as easy to hit as a speed bag.. Jess Willard was even worse.. He was so easy to punch Dempsey said, “I swung as hard as I could to club him down. Hitting Jess was like throwing a pine cone at the side of a barn.” Tell me - how good are you going to be if you have 1 fight in the previous 4 years??? What a goldbrick Willard was.

Buddy Baer was another Abe Simon/Joe Bugner type, but without a jab.. He didn’t care about skills.. He swung away like a raw amateur and never even tried to box or defend himself well... His whole thing was being able to absorb punches until he was able to bang some incompetent opponents out. If they could box he was helpless..

Carnera was a little different in that he had a tremendous work ethic.... He was a true professional and defended the Title successfully a few times.... He fought over 100 fights and always did his very best... Unfortunately he had the worst talent of anybody.... No coordination, balance, reflexes, or ability to slip punches... He tried really hard.

Buster Mathis was by far the most talented of your sad lot… But Mathis wasn’t big... Mathis was FAT.... This fact was proven when Mathis weighed in at 220 and still had excess FAT on his body at that low weight.... Mathis had a great deal of physical talent, but NO ambition, brains, or work ethic... How in Hell can you weigh in for 1 fight at 280 and another fight at 220 if you have any desire to be World Champion???

If you marry Buster Mathis's raw talent with Primo Carnera's work ethic and heart... You probably have an ATG.

[Cojimar 1946]

The optimal size for heavyweights seems to vary over time. Prior to the late 50s/60s the best heavyweights were generally about 190 pounds. Then from the late 50s to the early 90s the best heavyweights were about 212 pounds and from the late 90s to the late 2010s the best heavyweights were usually around 245 pounds. I think most people would argue that there have been some talented cruiserweights in recent years.

[Ambling Alp II]

Wilder only weighes in the 220s, is a very flawed fighter and he has been beating guys much heavier than him for years.

[Kalan]

220 is your criterion for "big" and Wilder meets the mark... Jess Willard was a big guy you often reference... He weighed in for Sailor White at only 214 when he was 30 year old so I guess he wasn't big for that particular fight.

Mike Tyson weighed only 218 when he trashed Michael Spinks like last week's meatloaf... Sonny Liston weighed only 214 when he smashed 189-pound Floyd Patterson like he was a Middleweight... George Foreman only weighed 217 but hammered much smaller and fatter Joe Frazier like an overstuffed punching bag... You don't put a marker on size... Size is relative to the size of your opponent... According to ATG novelist Jack London, Jack Johnson was a "Colossus fighting an Ant" against Tommy Burns ... though he only weighed in the 190's... Teeny Tommy was 168.

David Haye weighs in the 220's for his fights these days, even in ripped condition... I guess that transforms him from "small" Heavyweight into "big" Heavyweight... Of course he's 37. The weight comes off with great difficultly the older you get... You're not physically stronger or faster.. You have a six-pack... You're just 15 pounds heavier for whatever reason... Hopkins was 41 and still a Middleweight... He made a catch-weight of 156 for De La Hoya when he was 39... Some guys are really lucky and they never gain an ounce .... and if they do put on a little they lose it like it's nothing.

But size is more than weight... It's height, weight, and reach that determines size because each measure gives you specific advantages in leverage, range, and power... Wilder is 6'7" with an 84" reach... You can't go by Boxrec, Willard was 6'5" and his reach was no 83". Just like Sonny Liston's wasn't 84"...

Alp is fixated on size, but size doesn't determine if you're going to be Heavyweight Champion of the World -- or David Price, Tye Fields, and Julius Long would have been knocking on the door at some point in their careers with their massive size... They were never Top-10 rated Heavyweights... Jess Willard was a fraud champion who couldn't use his size effectively... He even admitted that he hated Boxing... If he loved it he would have defended the Title more than once in 4 years -- and would have gotten his ass in shape for the contest... They say you should only do something you love and forget about the money aspect... That too many doctors, lawyers, and politicians hate their job and fukk over a lot of people .... and die miserable and rich.

Tunney said he loved to box and never felt more complete than when sparring or fighting... If you don't love the game, you need tremendous drive and ambition... Buster Douglas and Tyson Fury slipped through without having any... Their chance came at a time the Heavyweight Champ was either getting old or wasn't paying attention...

Raw intelligence is a big part of being a successful Heavyweight.. The Klitschko Bros and Joshua certainly have more of that than most previous Heavyweights.. George Foreman lacked ring science, but nobody had more innate business savvy or dealt with people better than George.. Anthony Joshua seems to have the package.. Not only does he have surpassing athleticism in the way of speed, balance, coordination, reflexes, and fistic instincts .... he deals with the public better than about any previous Heavyweight Champ maybe other than Dempsey and Foreman.

[APerno]

They say you should only do something you love and forget about the money aspect...

Tunney said he loved to box and never felt more complete than when sparring or fighting... If you don't love the game, you need tremendous drive and ambition...

For the most part I agree with you, but how would you fit Dempsey into this picture - by most accounts he hated fighting; whether it was for a $750,000 payday against Tunney (II) or in the early years, a barroom brawl for a mere side-bet, most say Dempsey was driven by the money (by a deep fear of poverty.)

[Kalan]

They say you should only do something you love and forget about the money aspect...

Tunney said he loved to box and never felt more complete than when sparring or fighting... If you don't love the game, you need tremendous drive and ambition...

For the most part I agree with you, but how would you fit Dempsey into this picture - by most accounts he hated fighting; whether it was for a $750,000 payday against Tunney (II) or in the early years, a barroom brawl for a mere side-bet, most say Dempsey was driven by the money (by a deep fear of poverty.)

Fighters aren't frank about their feelings.. People ask, "You're such a nice, intelligent young man and so good looking. You could do anything you wanted to do. How can you be involved with such a brutal, savage spectacle like prize fighting - where you get paid to punch people senseless???"

Fighters will flat out lie and say, "I hate boxing actually - but it was the only way out for me.. Dad was out of work and we were starving... Mom was doing back breaking cleaning lady work to pay the rent, scrubbing floors all day..

But one day I saw a big bully picking on a little guy. I asked him to pick on a fellow his size. He took a swing at me and we went toe-to-toe.. He was half a foot taller and 50 pounds heavier, but I knocked him stiff with a left hook.. As luck would have it, a boxing coach was standing there watching. He asked if I'd like to get rich.. He gave me his business card and I showed up at the gym the next day.. Soon Mom stopped scrubbing floors cuz I was making so much money boxing..

You see...I'd love to quit, but I can't.. I'm the sole support of my parents and 4 brothers and sisters. I also support 3 charities and they've told me they'd collapse without my help. But if you have an opportunity for me that can replace my income, I'll listen." ... They never do. They just suggest you be a doctor or a lawyer. Right!!!

Whatever Dempsey said, he loved fighting. You don't persevere through abject poverty and riding the rails if you don’t love it. Dempsey went without meals like Jack Johnson did as a youth.. Dempsey worked as a miner, a farm hand, a dock loader, a clerk, and other odd jobs just long enough to get money to keep pursuing his dream of being Heavyweight Champion... He had loads of talent and you love doing something you were born to do... Dempsey was born to fight.

There’s negative aspects to all jobs... Everybody hates their job sometime... People don’t understand Boxing. It’s not barbaric or anything people think... But you don’t have time to explain it to everybody so you shine them.

[MrGuy]

I'm confused by people's logic here. They rightly think Burns size would be a problem against heavyweights of later eras but somehow size isn't a problem for 70s heavyweights like Ali and Frazier? Frazier would be giving up more than 40 pounds and 7 inches in height against Joshua.

True. But size gets to a point where its counterproductive. Wonder why when they got extremely large, the division disappeared? Horrible fights and fighters. The best from that era would throttle most of these guys, unless they were allowed to jab and grab.

[MrGuy]

Frazier wouldn't be in the running today... A short little, wide open, walk-in hooker??? ... I knew Foreman was going to plow him a new one.

[MrGuy]

In any case pointing out that giant heavyweights of more recent times are generally not regarded as ATGs is not terribly relevant. I don't find the arguments against Wladimir's greatness to be very persuasive but some people seem to take issue with some of the erratic performances early in his career.

My basic argument is that regardless of whether you consider them ATGs or not more modern giant heavyweights are clearly an improvement over the giants of earlier eras. These days the top 10 are dominated by giant heavyweights while in the past they rarely entered the top 10 or even the top 20.

For example, in his prime Ike Ibeabuchi weighed about 240 pounds (he was 235 vs Tua and 244 vs Byrd). He clearly seems like an improvement over the big men of the 70s. The best heavyweights of that size back then were guys like Roy Williams and Jack O'Halloran

That's a great comment... Ike Ibeabuchi, LennoxLewis, the Vitali Klitschko, Wladimir Klitschko, and Anytony Joshua are obviously better than woefully inept large men such as Jess Willard, Primo Carnea, Abe Simon, Buddy Baer, Riddick Bowe, and Andrew Golota... The human race is evolving and players in the NBA and NFL are getting bigger, stronger, and faster as well.... Because most all the best big men haven't been Americans they've been down played as well...

No its because most of the real big men are nothing more than jab and grab fighters.

[MrGuy]

The main reason that big fighters had done well recently is that the division is so weak. There are very few ideally sized heavyweights around. If just about all the heavyweights are big, then yes the top ones are going to be big.

Ibeabuchi is not exactly a great example. He had a grand total of two fights against decent competition.
Not hard at all to imagine Roy Williams winning a WBS title in the last 15 years.
Joe Bugner would have been a long time champion with several WBS title defenses and would have been in the HOF.

Going further back, Willard and Carnera, still would have won titles. Buddy Baer and Buster Mathis would have as well, but they were unable to in their day. fighters like Carl Morris and Abe Simon may have as well.

The Heavyweight Division is easily the strongest it’s ever been talent wise.

In fact... scores of Heavyweights in the 21st Century have been massive in height, weight, and reach---but lacked the overall physical and mental gifts, coaching, skills, athleticism, heart, and ambition to approach a Heavyweight Title.. Dominic Breazeale... Alexander Dimitrenko.... Mariusz Wach.... Robert Helenius.... Michael Grant.... Tye Fields... David Price.... Julius Long.... and scores of lesser big Heavyweights just can't make the grade today because there are so many huge men who are so much better and work harder than any of the big fellows who came before them.

And it’s not how many fights Ike Ibeabuchi had against world class Heavyweights... It’s WHEN Ike took those fights (when he had 16 and 19 fights experience) and HOW improved he looked destroying master boxer Chris Byrd only 3 fights after beating David Tua by impressive UD when he had only 16 fights... Ike slipped punches well and ripped Byrd with extremely sharp combinations to head and body.. Ike was having a wonderful time in there - because he was completely at ease against the powerless putz Byrd – much like Wlad was when he easily mastered the mismatched, 6’2” X 213-pound tyke who had nothing whatever to show him.

And as for the miserable athletes you're trying to offer up as talented big men who could win a title.

Joe Bugner was about the clumsiest punching bag there ever was.. He couldn’t slip or duck a punch.. Little bitty Marvis Frazier, who was 9-0 and only 200 pounds, easily boxed the ass off of Bugner, who was as easy to hit as a speed bag.. Jess Willard was even worse.. He was so easy to punch Dempsey said, “I swung as hard as I could to club him down. Hitting Jess was like throwing a pine cone at the side of a barn.” Tell me - how good are you going to be if you have 1 fight in the previous 4 years??? What a goldbrick Willard was.

Buddy Baer was another Abe Simon/Joe Bugner type, but without a jab.. He didn’t care about skills.. He swung away like a raw amateur and never even tried to box or defend himself well... His whole thing was being able to absorb punches until he was able to bang some incompetent opponents out. If they could box he was helpless..

Carnera was a little different in that he had a tremendous work ethic.... He was a true professional and defended the Title successfully a few times.... He fought over 100 fights and always did his very best... Unfortunately he had the worst talent of anybody.... No coordination, balance, reflexes, or ability to slip punches... He tried really hard.

Buster Mathis was by far the most talented of your sad lot… But Mathis wasn’t big... Mathis was FAT.... This fact was proven when Mathis weighed in at 220 and still had excess FAT on his body at that low weight.... Mathis had a great deal of physical talent, but NO ambition, brains, or work ethic... How in Hell can you weigh in for 1 fight at 280 and another fight at 220 if you have any desire to be World Champion???

If you marry Buster Mathis's raw talent with Primo Carnera's work ethic and heart... You probably have an ATG.

You're entitled to your opinion. But this is one of the worst eras ever. If it was one of thr best, where are all the great fighters and fights since Lewis retired?

[Kalan]

Frazier wouldn't be in the running today... A short little, wide open, walk-in hooker??? ... I knew Foreman was going to plow him a new one.

The guys you see now aren't on the level of Foreman. Not close.. Unless these guys were allowed to jab and grab, Frazier mows most down with no problem

Total horsepucky!!! Ali was wide open for left hooks and that’s the reason Flabby Frazier beat him... Ali made a lot of technical errors and mistakes.... One of them was pulling straight back from left hooks.... Amos Johnson kicked his ass in the Pan Am Trials... Norton broke Ali’s jaw... Cooper, Frazier, and Banks all decked him… ALL of that with left hooks.

Frazier was a virtual punching bag for Foreman... His wind up hook didn't bother George... The only thing Joe had for his era was size, strength, and resistance.. He smashed a lot of little teeny guys and a few fat ones.. George Foreman was a colossus for his era.. Standing 6'3" X 217 versus a ridiculously FAT 5’11 X 214 Frazier.. Today George would be small.

Frazier did a great imitation of an over inflated basketball, bouncing up and down off the floor taking tons of punches from Foreman, who wasn't even a good boxer as little Jimmy Young beat him... Look at Jimmy Young's record if you think he was real good...All Joshua would have to do is smash Frazier like a chubby little roach with one terrific right..

Joe was wide open.. Frazier was scared out of his wits versus bigger and stronger Foreman… Joe never fought anyone with Joshua's combination of height, weight, reach, strength, punching power, and speed.... Joshua finished 1st in the sprints in Super Stars Competition and Frazier finished dead last… Joshua is a fantastic athlete at 6'6" X 250.

Joshua easily won the combined events of the Super Stars Competition -- while pathetic athlete Frazier finished in last place overall.... He was the joke of the Century. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPk2zl5s6xM

[Kalan]

You're entitled to your opinion. But this is one of the worst eras ever. If it was one of thr best, where are all the great fighters and fights since Lewis retired?

Many are better than Lewis... Lewis was knocked out by Rahman and McCall.... The K Bros and Joshua are definitely technically better and better athletes... Losing on cuts when you're winning on all cards doesn't mean you can't box.

Where were the greats when pudgy Joe Frazier was knocking over 190-pound Dave Zyglewictz and Terry Daniels???

When Joe fought his FIRST big, tall, strong, rock hard, big punching opponent -- he got smashed out quickly...

Super Stars Joe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPk2zl5s6xM