Marciano could beat anybody!!!

pound per pound · Post by **pound per pound** » 12 Apr 2006, 15:32

The Great John L wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:yea but sharkey was weighing in in the 170s a lot. in 1899, he weighed in at 173lb when he fought kid mccoy. this was RIGHT BEFORE he fought jeffries for the title.

rocky in his prime was always in the mid- high 180s while sharkey weighed in the 170s
In his prime Sharkey fought mostly in the mid 180's. In his early 20's he often times weighed in the 170's, but his prime years were 180+. He may have trained down to 173 for McCoy to help his speed, but by this stage of his career that was not the norm for Sharkey. Either way, Sharkey may have been one of the p4p strongest fighters ever, possibly stronger than the Rock.

Ahoy matey, Sailor Tom Sharkey was one heck of a fighter. He not only whipped a very good McCoy, but he got the better of Jim Corbett as well.

Sharkey had the strength to bend large coins with his bare hands. Sharkey was a true iron man with a mule kick of a punch, and seek and destroy style

Sharkey captured the imagination of the fight fans with his sheer savagery in the ring. He gave no quarter.

Sharkey's best weight was in his mid 180's. When Corbett retired for a while, Sharkey Ko'd Maher and claimed rights to the crown.

When Marciano was champion, historians said he was like Tom Sharkey.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 12 Apr 2006, 15:44

The Great John L wrote:
silkov wrote:Jesus Brock, look at Rockys face after most of his fights!!... didnt cut easily!!.... had a great defence!!... maybe he was cutting himself then!... how many heavyweight champs have almost been parted from their hooter during a fight??..... sure Cooper and Quarry cut badly... but we're not saying that they could have beaten any heavyweight ever in history are we?....
BB didn’t say that Rocky had a great defense, he just said that it was better thank you think. Whatever that means.

I think what he meant was that Rocky’s defense was pretty good, and certainly better than many give him credit for, and I think I agree. While he could be hit, he wasn’t easy to hit with a solid punch, and that helped to explain why he never seemed to really be hurt badly in any fight. He was KD in several fights but he never really seemed to be hurt badly. At least not in any of the fights I’ve seen.

As far as cutting, I think getting cut in 6 out of 49 fights (if that’s correct) doesn’t exactly make him a bleeder, but some of the cuts he suffered in his title fights certainly looked pretty bad, and that seems to be what people remember about Rocky.

The fact that he got cut in all his important fights says a lot. Quarry and Cooper didn't get cut in every fight either... in fact both got their worst cuts against Ali who was a very cutting puncher... its one of the reasons I don't see Marciano having any chance against Ali... he'd be cut up severely. As for Rockys defence, I'm not saying he was a punch bag or anything and he did develop a good technique that worked for him... but he still took a lot of punches and got cut up... this is a fact.
Rocky was an outstanding fighter but to say that he could have beaten anybody as this thread does is just stretching credibility and reality. Why doesn't anyone ever say that Frazier could have beaten anybody?... Frazier along with a good few other heavyweight champs is terribly underrated why Rocky is to be blunt largely overrated...

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 12 Apr 2006, 15:46

Thanks for the info. Just helps support my theory that Sharkey was probably p4p one of the strongest fighters ever. If he bent coins, he certainly had powerful forearms and hands. I think he was also one of the best HW's to never win a title.

BO Selecta · Post by **BO Selecta** » 12 Apr 2006, 15:49

Marciano could beat anybody, if there was a faded 37 yr old heavyweight called Anybody, otherwise he'd have been smashed by Sonny Liston, befuddled by Ali, jabbed into oblivion by Holmes & squashed by James Toney!

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 12 Apr 2006, 15:52

silkov wrote:Rocky was an outstanding fighter but to say that he could have beaten anybody as this thread does is just stretching credibility and reality.

I think pretty much everyone agress with you on that assessment.

And who didn't love smokin' Joe? Yes, I think he's quickly being forgotten, and his career wasn't really that long ago. Imagine how underrated many fighters are from 75-100 years ago.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 12 Apr 2006, 16:07

I think Crease makes a good case, cuz from what I heard tell... Marciano could rassle a grizzly to a draw (to be kind of course), KO a Silverback in 5 seconds flat, get the better of 2 Male attack Kangaroos and beat the bejesus out of a Rhino all in one mid morning's work. Just in time for a spot of tea and still having time to catch the 11:00 radio broadcast before sitting down to a well deserved 11:30 lunch followed by an early afternoon matinee at the Strand.

Actually this was his training schedule so this was simply typical...not a stretch in the least. His afternoon workouts of course were a bit more challenging.

Oh and had you heard? His record was 49 and 0....he was never beaten......never. Looked it up myself right here on boxrec.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 12 Apr 2006, 16:08

silkov wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
silkov wrote:Marciano makes the top 10 heavies of all time imo... about 9 or 10... but the man was not invincible, he cut easily, had a poor defence, was limited technically.... against the likes of Ali, Holmes, Johnson, Liston fOREMAN, fRAZIER, AND a prime Joe Louis Rocky would have little chance and would be busted up and beaten... I would also pick prime Tunney, Charles and Jeffries to beat Rocky.... it is easy to harp on about his courage etc and 49-0 but the facts are that he was 49-0 largely through very shrewd management and the fact that he fought very few true world class fighters... this is a fact, look at his record.

- rockys defense was a lot better than U think

-charles would never be able to deal with marcianos pressure and power on his best day, and charles put on the best preformance of his career vs rocky and was still thouroughly outpointed. he was also dominated and knocked out in the rematch. elmer ray was a puncher swarmer who fought out of a crouch and he managed to give charles a very close fight and earned the decision. i do think rocky doesnt match up well vs charles and being the true master boxer charles is, he would win 1 out of a 3 fight series with the rock.

- rocky would stop frazier IMO, but it would be close. i favor rockys two handed power over fraziers left hook. rocky was also much stronger than frazier, had a better chin, and IMO better inside fighter.

- i think ali, jack johnson, joe louis, george foreman beat rocky

- holmes marciano is a toss up

- rocky outpoints jeffries, rocky was a much better bigger version of tom sharkey who went 45 rounds with jeffries. rocky was a greater puncher than jeff and better inside fighter.

-rocky knocks out tunney. if a swarmer like 160lb harry greb could beat tunney twice, a much stronger, more powerful, bigger swarmer like marciano would do a lot of damage to tunney.

marciano DID NOT cut easily, THATS A MYTH. only 6 of marcianos 49 fights did he cut. quarry and cooper were far worse cutters.

Jesus Brock, look at Rockys face after most of his fights!!... didnt cut easily!!.... had a great defence!!... maybe he was cutting himself then!... how many heavyweight champs have almost been parted from their hooter during a fight??..... sure Cooper and Quarry cut badly... but we're not saying that they could have beaten any heavyweight ever in history are we?....

rocky only cut in charles II , shkor, simmons, walcott, charles I fights. the skhor cut was a headbut. charles II was an elbow. also remember they were using smaller gloves.

bottom line: rocky never lost a fight on cuts, so we should not hold it against him in fantasy matchups

i will admit rocky's nose incident is the most bizarre thing i have ever seen

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 12 Apr 2006, 16:10

BB didn’t say that Rocky had a great defense, he just said that it was better thank you think. Whatever that means.

I think what he meant was that Rocky’s defense was pretty good, and certainly better than many give him credit for, and I think I agree. While he could be hit, he wasn’t easy to hit with a solid punch, and that helped to explain why he never seemed to really be hurt badly in any fight. He was KD in several fights but he never really seemed to be hurt badly. At least not in any of the fights I’ve seen.

i agree 100% john L. goldman and angelo dundee stated about rocky having underated defense. rocky opponents testified to rocky being harder to hit than he looks.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 12 Apr 2006, 16:11

Rocky was an outstanding fighter but to say that he could have beaten anybody as this thread does is just stretching credibility and reality. Why doesn't anyone ever say that Frazier could have beaten anybody?.

the question of the thread is COULD rocky beat everyone? my answer is yes due to having a punchers chance in every fight

if u asked WOULD rocky beat everyone, my answer would be no.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 12 Apr 2006, 16:14

The Great John L wrote:
silkov wrote:Rocky was an outstanding fighter but to say that he could have beaten anybody as this thread does is just stretching credibility and reality.
I think pretty much everyone agress with you on that assessment.

And who didn't love smokin' Joe? Yes, I think he's quickly being forgotten, and his career wasn't really that long ago. Imagine how underrated many fighters are from 75-100 years ago.

The ironic thing is that one of the reasons Frazier is underrated is because of the losses to Ali and Foreman... yet people overlook the fact that Frazier fought better opposition to Marciano and was at the top for longer. Jeffries is another who is very underrated and almost forgotten today that'd I'd pick to beat Marcinao...

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 12 Apr 2006, 16:15

Rocky could beat anyone, you could never count him out....no one ever did. But to say he beats everyone in ALL head to head matchups.....well that's ludacrisp.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 12 Apr 2006, 16:22

Jaclem wrote:..right..like we need another marciano thread.

just two comments:

it wouldn't be a problem for foreman's getting tired after six rounds because he'd get rid of marciano before that.

ezzard charles did NOT...repeat DID NOT fight the best fightof his career in Marciano I

the first of the above statements is conjecture. the second is fact.

he certainly gave his best preformance of his career. fighters have been past there prime, but fought career best preformances. kinda like qawi with evander holyfield.

why do u think marciano dominated charles so easily in the rematch?

Wilfred smith of the chicago tribune claimed "charles unquestionably offered the greatest fight of his long career."

whitney martin labeled it "charles finest hour because he showed that he could submerge his imagination and kidnly nature and allow the primitive brute that is in every man to rise to the surface."

"although he was plainly defeated, charles made one of the best showings of his career." - New York Times

the peak charles was a more aggresive fighter, and that will only hurt him more against rocky, cause more aggresion will cause him to get knocked out by rock. even though a peak charles is faster, it will ne nullified by rocky's volume of punches and workrate.

bottom line: i think rocky beats a peak 1948 charles 2 out of 3. charles would not be able to handle rockys workrate, power, pressure, strength. also rocky was AWESOME in rematches. no way charles would win 2 in a row vs rock. maybe 1, but rocky would win the trilogy.

in a 3 fight series between a 1948 charles vs 1953 marciano

charles 15 unanimous marciano

marciano TKO 14 charles

marciano KO 8 charles

* charles showed traits in the 1st marciano fight HE NEVER SHOWED IN HIS CAREER BEFORE. NEVER

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 12 Apr 2006, 16:28

heres a rocky marciano tribute for you all to see

http://s56.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1R6V ... HFYZ6DZDEP

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 12 Apr 2006, 16:36

It’s hard to agree with the thought that Charles fought his best fight against Marciano. I think that most people regard it as a great performances, but many over rate this performance because he was expected to lose and ended up giving a great performance in a losing effort.

I think Charles looked sharper in some of his wins, but he still fought great fight against Rocky, showing the heart and determination that wasn’t necessary when he won impressively in earlier fights. So you could say that he showed more heart than in just about any other fight, but maybe not as much skill. At least that’s my take on the fight.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 12 Apr 2006, 16:39

marciano should have got a title shot vs charles in 51. that never happened.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 12 Apr 2006, 16:42

The Great John L wrote:It’s hard to agree with the thought that Charles fought his best fight against Marciano. I think that most people regard it as a great performances, but many over rate this performance because he was expected to lose and ended up giving a great performance in a losing effort.

I think Charles looked sharper in some of his wins, but he still fought great fight against Rocky, showing the heart and determination that wasn’t necessary when he won impressively in earlier fights. So you could say that he showed more heart than in just about any other fight, but maybe not as much skill. At least that’s my take on the fight.

yes though if u watch the very early rounds, charles displays a lot of skill and speed. charles got badly worn down as the fight went to the later rounds.

also if charles BEST ROUNDS were the early rounds, then why are u judging him by film considering u never seen the 2nd, 3rd, 5th rounds cause they DONT exist even though these were charles best rounds.

so we can't really judge charles skill based on film, considering some of charles best rounds in the fight DONT exist on film. thats why its good to read the newspaper reports.

the only rounds u can fully judge charles speed and skill on are in rounds 1 and 4 where charles looks great and fast!

-if u watch the late rounds, charles is totally beaten up and much slower but he still chuggin away. even in the 15th at one point he tears into marciano with a 6 punch combination.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 12 Apr 2006, 17:01

Someone said Frazier was in a whole better leaugue than Marciano....BULLSHIT.

Frazier only had a tremendous left hook. Marciano had power in both hands---Frazier used the right very rarely and it was more a set up punch to the left.

Frazier was stopped in his career, Marciano was only dropped for quick knock downs in his career. He could take punches better and had power in both fists.

Besides, his defense up until he retired was highly under-rated. Watch him slip those punches as he bobbed and weaved fighting from a crouch.

Yes when he started he fought like a damn ape, and was off balance and blocked alot of blows with his face---but by time he was champion, he had it all down.

I think guys like Ali would have given him the most problems...but hell Shavers dropped Ali, as did Henry Cooper, as did Frazier. And Marciano was almost up there, if not more, on the level with Foreman's power.

If Frazier could drop Ali and give Ali life and death battles...and Frazier fought alot like Marciano---I could imagine Marciano as a better puncher (power wise), in his crouch, and his ability to absorb punishment better than Frazier---could probably have beaten Ali.

Figure it this way. Frazier beat Ali the first time, lost the second time, and if he went into the final round against Ali in the third fight, he would have dropped Ali for the count.

Since Marciano is better than Frazier, I would have to figure if him and Ali fought three times, it would be the reverse---Marciano win two and Ali one.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 12 Apr 2006, 17:22

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
silkov wrote:Marciano makes the top 10 heavies of all time imo... about 9 or 10... but the man was not invincible, he cut easily, had a poor defence, was limited technically.... against the likes of Ali, Holmes, Johnson, Liston fOREMAN, fRAZIER, AND a prime Joe Louis Rocky would have little chance and would be busted up and beaten... I would also pick prime Tunney, Charles and Jeffries to beat Rocky.... it is easy to harp on about his courage etc and 49-0 but the facts are that he was 49-0 largely through very shrewd management and the fact that he fought very few true world class fighters... this is a fact, look at his record.

- rockys defense was a lot better than U think

-charles would never be able to deal with marcianos pressure and power on his best day, and charles put on the best preformance of his career vs rocky and was still thouroughly outpointed. he was also dominated and knocked out in the rematch. elmer ray was a puncher swarmer who fought out of a crouch and he managed to give charles a very close fight and earned the decision. i do think rocky doesnt match up well vs charles and being the true master boxer charles is, he would win 1 out of a 3 fight series with the rock.

- rocky would stop frazier IMO, but it would be close. i favor rockys two handed power over fraziers left hook. rocky was also much stronger than frazier, had a better chin, and IMO better inside fighter.

- i think ali, jack johnson, joe louis, george foreman beat rocky

Really? That's interesting. I don't think that Johnson would have much of a chance. Everytime he would attempt one of his clinches his ribs would get a horrible battering. Maybe only one or two punches per clinch at first but as the bout drew on the cumulative affect would be horrible on poor Jack.

Plus JJ liked to infight with those great uppercuts of his. Marciano would LOVE a give-and-take along those lines!

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 12 Apr 2006, 17:24

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
The Great John L wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:...rocky was a much better bigger version of tom sharkey who went 45 rounds with jeffries.
Sharkey's best weight was about 185, essentially the same size as the Rock and he was nothing but solid muscle. The Rock was taller by a few inches, but not really bigger than Sharkey.

The Sailor may have been one of the few HWs who could have matched Rocky's sheer will and determination as well. I do think Rocky was the better fighter, but he was not really any bigger than Sharkey.

yea but sharkey was weighing in in the 170s a lot. in 1899, he weighed in at 173lb when he fought kid mccoy. this was RIGHT BEFORE he fought jeffries for the title.

rocky in his prime was always in the mid- high 180s while sharkey weighed in the 170s

Yeah, but Sharkey's training techniques were so brutal they were legendary. He sweated off a ton of water. If you look at a tale of the tape you will see that his muscular dimensions are superior to Rocky's.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 12 Apr 2006, 17:28

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
The Great John L wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:yea but sharkey was weighing in in the 170s a lot. in 1899, he weighed in at 173lb when he fought kid mccoy. this was RIGHT BEFORE he fought jeffries for the title.

rocky in his prime was always in the mid- high 180s while sharkey weighed in the 170s
In his prime Sharkey fought mostly in the mid 180's. In his early 20's he often times weighed in the 170's, but his prime years were 180+. He may have trained down to 173 for McCoy to help his speed, but by this stage of his career that was not the norm for Sharkey. Either way, Sharkey may have been one of the p4p strongest fighters ever, possibly stronger than the Rock.
yes sharkey was one of the strongest, however not stronger than rocky. rocky had godly like strength for his weight. rocky may be the strongest heavyweight outside of foreman and jeffries.

I wouldn't bank on that. Sharkey had hands so strong that it was reputed that he could bend silver dollars with his fingers. He went toe to toe for 45 rounds with a much larger slugger in Jim Jeffries. If that doesn't prove his strength nothing does. Rocky never proved his strength in such a manner.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 12 Apr 2006, 17:30

The Great John L wrote:Thanks for the info. Just helps support my theory that Sharkey was probably p4p one of the strongest fighters ever. If he bent coins, he certainly had powerful forearms and hands. I think he was also one of the best HW's to never win a title.

He fought the bigger punchers, too and in doing so proved his strength a durability much more than Rocky had to in his career.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 12 Apr 2006, 17:41

silkov wrote: Why doesn't anyone ever say that Frazier could have beaten anybody?... Frazier along with a good few other heavyweight champs is terribly underrated why Rocky is to be blunt largely overrated...

I totally agree on this. Frazier has become a footnote in the life and times of Ali. People just say how Ali wasn't the same fighter after prison but he was good enough to beat everyone else for many, many years. Frazier beat some top fighters and to say that he's still alive and his era was not that long ago it seems odd that he has been cast aside.

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 12 Apr 2006, 18:00

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
silkov wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
- rockys defense was a lot better than U think

-charles would never be able to deal with marcianos pressure and power on his best day, and charles put on the best preformance of his career vs rocky and was still thouroughly outpointed. he was also dominated and knocked out in the rematch. elmer ray was a puncher swarmer who fought out of a crouch and he managed to give charles a very close fight and earned the decision. i do think rocky doesnt match up well vs charles and being the true master boxer charles is, he would win 1 out of a 3 fight series with the rock.

- rocky would stop frazier IMO, but it would be close. i favor rockys two handed power over fraziers left hook. rocky was also much stronger than frazier, had a better chin, and IMO better inside fighter.

- i think ali, jack johnson, joe louis, george foreman beat rocky

- holmes marciano is a toss up

- rocky outpoints jeffries, rocky was a much better bigger version of tom sharkey who went 45 rounds with jeffries. rocky was a greater puncher than jeff and better inside fighter.

-rocky knocks out tunney. if a swarmer like 160lb harry greb could beat tunney twice, a much stronger, more powerful, bigger swarmer like marciano would do a lot of damage to tunney.

marciano DID NOT cut easily, THATS A MYTH. only 6 of marcianos 49 fights did he cut. quarry and cooper were far worse cutters.

Jesus Brock, look at Rockys face after most of his fights!!... didnt cut easily!!.... had a great defence!!... maybe he was cutting himself then!... how many heavyweight champs have almost been parted from their hooter during a fight??..... sure Cooper and Quarry cut badly... but we're not saying that they could have beaten any heavyweight ever in history are we?....

rocky only cut in charles II , shkor, simmons, walcott, charles I fights. the skhor cut was a headbut. charles II was an elbow. also remember they were using smaller gloves.

bottom line: rocky never lost a fight on cuts, so we should not hold it against him in fantasy matchups

i will admit rocky's nose incident is the most bizarre thing i have ever seen

It was a freaking punch! How many times do we have to go over this? I showed you a cap from the fight when the cut happened. The ref also saw it and made a good call. Marciano's nose was split from a left hook/uppercut and that was the bottom line.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 12 Apr 2006, 18:03

silkov wrote:Marciano makes the top 10 heavies of all time imo... about 9 or 10... but the man was not invincible, he cut easily, had a poor defence, was limited technically.... against the likes of Ali, Holmes, Johnson, Liston fOREMAN, fRAZIER, AND a prime Joe Louis Rocky would have little chance and would be busted up and beaten... I would also pick prime Tunney, Charles and Jeffries to beat Rocky.... it is easy to harp on about his courage etc and 49-0 but the facts are that he was 49-0 largely through very shrewd management and the fact that he fought very few true world class fighters... this is a fact, look at his record.

Pretty much my view. Although Johnson or Jeffries are hard to colmpare with modern heavyweights; and I'm not sure about Liston.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 12 Apr 2006, 23:11

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Crease wrote:BTW,

Is Roland La Starza a "hall of famer"?

I'm sure JJ Walcott and Ezzard Charles are...

Where do you get the "hall of fame" list???

marcianos title defenses

KO 1 jersey joe walcott- hall of famer

TKO 11 roland lastarza

W 15 ezzard charles- hall of famer

KO 8 ezzard charles- hall of famer

TKO 9 don cockell

KO 9 archie moore- hall of famer

Yes they were hall of famers but not at their best when Marciano got to them.

Marciano fought mainly fighters past their best. Walcott was on the decline and even then was good enough to drop and outpoint Marciano for most of the fight. Charles was at the end of his career also, but again gave Marciano fits. And Moore, not a natural heavyweight dropped Marciano and took numerous punches before wilting.

I like Marciano but he is overrated IMO. He was lucky in decisions with Lastarza and Lowry and was fortunate to be around in a pretty low period in the heavyweight division.

Ali would have boxed rings around him, he would have been too quick for him. He would have cut him up or win by a large points margin. Ali had one of the best chins ever, if he could take punches from Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Norton, Williams etc... he could have taken them from the smaller Marciano.