'Violent' Elmer Ray, rated as one of the biggest punchers in the heavyweight division - 85 wins (70 kos) 13 losses (8 stoppage losses) and 1 draw
Obviously a very dangerous puncher but also had a dubious chin himself.
Why was he never given a title shot?
He went 3 years 4 months undefeated winning 50 fights (44 kos). He KO'ed Lee Savold in 2 and won a decision over Jersey Joe Walcott on the way. Walcott got the verdict over him in the rematch only for Ray to win his next 7 fights (6 kos) which included a decision over Ezzard Charles.
Charles KO'ed him in 9 in the rematch but it seems to me Elmer Ray was deliberatly given rematches in the hope he would lose so he would not get a title shot.
I'm not saying he would have won the title but a big puncher like him would have stood a good chance against Louis.
Any thoughts?
Heavyweight - 'Violent' Elmer Ray
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Controversial
- Heavyweight
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The Scranton Assassin
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 20 Jul 2004, 13:15
There's a great story of Elmer Ray's sparringsession with Charley Burley, who was a natural 154 lber.
When Ray found out himself getting soundly outboxed by the smaller man, he decided to fight like a heavyweight and went at Burley guns blazing.
The next thing he knows he is lying flat on his back and staring at the roof. It turns out he had been there for several minutes - Burley had knocked him spark out!
-KOKid-
When Ray found out himself getting soundly outboxed by the smaller man, he decided to fight like a heavyweight and went at Burley guns blazing.
The next thing he knows he is lying flat on his back and staring at the roof. It turns out he had been there for several minutes - Burley had knocked him spark out!
-KOKid-
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
he was a later bloomer, throw his 1930s career out the window. some of those fights in the 30s were fakes also.Decagon wrote:We've got an Elmer Ray fan on here or two. He could punch, but he was inconsistent in his early career. A lot of people argue that he should just be judged for his later career, when he was a top contender, but I don't think he should. A modern version of Ray might be Maurice Harris, who was as talented as any man who stepped into the ring in the past 10 years. He had a bad 8-8 start that turned to 8-9 with a bogus loss to an ancient Larry Holmes. He showed an incredible amount of skill in the ring, but the "opponent" in him came out too often. Against the cream of the division, Ray never seemed to win cleanly, although he got a decision or two.
maurice harris? u must be kidding me dec.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
as you can see, ray lost a lot pre 1940. I think its clear going by elmer rays record that he was a bit of a late bloomer. he was a much better fighter in the 1940s. his career in the 1930s is very sketchy, and i suspect there some of those fights were fakes considering how hard the times were for black heavyweights. its safe to say elmer was DEFINTLEY NOT at his best in the 1930s. remember, elmer came back into boxing in 1936 after a 9 year layoff, he was very green in the 1920s-30s.
elmer rays prime was around 1942-47 with his absolute peak being 1946. in his prime he lost just 3 times to turkey thompson, charles, walcott. the thompson fight was a case of elmer ray getting caught early and blown out by a top contender who was also a huge puncher. I might add all the credit goes out to turkey thompson, no exuses. this is a legit victory for thompson. Turkey was a very good contender of the 40s and was one of the avoided black contenders like harry bobo. ray and thompson also fought a NC in the fight before. someone once told me ray was dominating thompson until the fight ended, however i cant back that up and i dont have a fight report on how it turned into a NC.
his 2 other losses were to all time greats charles, and walcott. so really the only loss you have to question is the turkey thompson loss.
ray from 1944-47 was rated in the top 5 by RING magazine. In 1946-48 ray was rated in the top 2 and when you take into fact u had greats like charles, walcott, louis then thats impressive. ray during the mid 1940s was avoided like a plague from some of the top contenders(especially white ones), they wanted no part of ray. so instead, ray was forced to fight a lot of journeyman and bums in the 40s. Also ray's lack of good management was a cause. However, Ray was still unproven until he completley destroyed top 10 contender lee savold in 2 easy rounds. Ray now proved he was a threat to louis. Ray probably deserved a shot at louis title in 46, but never got it.
from 1945-48 Ray was a top contender. however, no one wanted to fight him. only the likes of ezzard charles and jersey joe walcott would fight him. that was the peak of ray's career. don't let the fact that elmer ray was 36 years old fool you, he got better with age.
in his peak, he went 1-1 with charles and walcott. both charles and walcott were pretty much at the peak of the careers. now you have to admit, thats damm impressive. charles only loss at his absolute peak was to ray.
now you can say the first ray-charle loss fight was a highly questionable decision that most thought charles won , but the fact that ray was fighting a peak charles 10 close even rounds is a high accomplishment itself!
i have the new york times report, and let me say the article isnt kind to both fighters. it even mentions both won't be able to compete vs louis if they fight him for the title. of course(this is before they realize how good ezzard is). ray in this fight was able to win so many rounds and earned the judges eye because of agression. Ray was very aggresive, even wild. Ray was a swarmer so thats not uncommon. in this fight the judges thought more of ray's aggresion than charles cautious counterpunching approach. charles outboxed ray in this fight and made ray miss alot in his aggresive offensive burts( now remember, charles defense is nothing short of spectacular). ray scored his points from some of the big power punches that were able to go home. ray's aggression, power punches, and inside fighting are what won him the fight because charles outboxed him the whole way from long range. and it wasnt like ray just landed here in there. elmer ray put together some very good combinations on the inside. you dont penetrate charles defense unless ur a good all around puncher. now its tough to determine how good rays defense in this fight was, since reports did say ray did leave himself open at times in his wild attacks. im sure that didnt mean he was wild hands low herky jerky. just that when he unloaded his artillery, his guard was vunerable. Remember Ray is a swarmer and a power punching agressive swarmer tends to do that. however, ray couldnt have been bad technically, or else he wouldnt have even stood a chance at winning rounds vs charles. Ray was able to get inside and land on charles because he was elusive and had a good punching arsenal. the times had charles winning only 6 rounds to 4, so that shows you basically the fight was even and the winner would be what you were looking for(rays aggresion, charles counterpunches).
charles knocked ray out in the rematch which shows charles greatness more than anything. ray was ruined by that fight, and retired a year later. even after the charles loss, he managed to beat top 10 contender huge punching sid peaks.
the two walcott bouts were close. the first one could have gone either way, but ray got the close decision. the first fight some big punches were landed, but the bout was fought at close quarters so it wasnt too exciting too the crowd apparently. Ray was a swarmer and was at his best on the inside. Walcott however is a master boxer and showed great inside fighting skills throughout his career. Ray staggered walcott many times in the fight nearly flooring walcott in round 3 with a right hand which buckeled jersey joes knees.
"throughout the encounter it was a case of walcott's left hook against ray's short right, with the head the target most of the time. the targets, in the main were mighty elusive, for there seemed to be as many punches missed as landed." - new york times on walcott-ray I
that must mean ray is pretty damm slick if there comparing his defense and elusiveness to walcotts. since the fight was so close, they fought a rematch with the winner deemed a shot at joe louis title. both were # 1 and # 2 contenders. walcott however knocked ray down 3 times and won a close but clearly convinsing decision though one judge voted in favor of ray . It was walcott who then got the shot at joe's title.
as for ray, let me first say i have never seen film of him. I have not heard of any ray film out there. perhaps some is out there in some incredible rare place, but as of now i dont know where to get film of ray. from the studying i done of ray, He was a puncher-swarmer who fought out of a crouch bobbing/weaving. Interesting to know when you consider elmer rays body type. I always thought ray was a standup boxerpuncher until i read fight reports talking about his bobbin and weavin out of a crouch style. as for the hands held high, Now i think its safe to say that if ray was to fight walcott and charles out of that position with his head sticking out, had he kept his hands low his face would have got taken off. So we can assume Ray kept his hands high. as far as I have read(which isnt much) Ray held his hands high, he was elusive, and not a stationary target, he put together accurate and powerful combinations. Ray was known as a devastating puncher by the press. Elmer "violent" Ray recorded 70 out of 85 KO's in his wins. Ray's biggest punch was his right hand which was viewed as one of the best punches in the heavyweight division at the time. ray as a puncher was aggresive but threw threw accurate combinations which made him deadly. Lee Savold a durable top contender had no idea how to stop ray's offense. according to the new york times, ray's punches were very crisp and sharp punches(modern trait) that savold was overwhelmed by. sounds similiar to joe louis punche huh? savold was eventually knocked out cold face down on the canvas by a huge right cross. Ray however proved he was more than just a puncher. Ray was very skilled boxer who established this against great fighters like walcott and charles. now ray was not as technically sound as walcott or charles , but he was much more powerful. so if you add his aggression and power punching arsenal to his good boxing skills, it makes him a very hard fighter to outpoint. Ray as a boxer was very elusive, and had good head movement with his bobbin and weaving style. Ray had a decent jab but it wasnt one of his specialties. and like most swarmers ray was good inside fighter. ray used his combination of size, power, strength well on the inside to wear down opponents. Ray was defintley not easy to hit in his crouch or this would have showed vs accurate first class counterpunches like charles and ray. Ray was most vunerable when he was on the attack, leaving his guard open at times, but you got to remember thats the other guy has to worry about defending ray's deadly punches before he concentrates on taking advantage of ray's open gaurd.
Rays record at his peak is impressive, but of course its flawed. he fought a lot of nobodies for years and didnt beat a good wide range of depth at all. however, you got to look at ray's record and realize quality counts more than quantity. ray beat on a bunch of nobodies, but when he did step up and face 1st teir great fighters, he was able to win. ray beat two top 20 heavyweights of all time. he should get critizied for the lack of depth he beat, but also remember that no one wanted to fight him. he was ducked in his prime for years and no challenger would fight him. at his peak as contender( 44-48 the only other top 10 guy he faced was lee savold and he completley dominated him. after that easy massacre, no manager wanted to throw there fighter in vs Ray. its too bad we didnt get to see ray vs some of the other top contenders or ray in a rematch vs thompson but as we know, ray did fight the two best heavyweights of the 40s(besides louis) in walcott and charles and the fact he was able to defeat them both shows his greatness. quality over quantity. im sure what ray did to savold he would have done to most of the other top contenders of the day. Savold beat in the prior 3 years had beat many of the top contenders out there like lem franklin, gus dorazio, lou nova, joe baski.
Had ray got a title shot vs louis, it would have been in 1946 right after the win over walcott. this would have been a tough fight indeed for an aging louis vs a fighter of ray's calibre, but i have no doubt louis would have won by KO. ray's biggest flaw was he had a shaky chin. Thomspon took advantage of ray's shaky chin and knocked him out. charles also knocked ray out, and walcott floored ray 3 times in there 2nd encounter. in the 1930s before ray's best, he was knocked out often. a fight between louis and ray would have been a fearce slugout and I could see ray dropping louis. However, rays shaky chin and lack of good defense during his attack will spell his downfall to joe louis' punching arsenal on the inside. louis by early KO in action packed battle. not a good style matchup for ray. ray and louis actually fought a exhibitions in late 40s. in the first one, ray gave louis a whooping accoring to the papers. in the rematch, in a slow paced battle ray apparently decided to turn it into a real fight and slugged louis hard staggering the champion. to show you a testament to louis greatness, an angry louis went after ray and knocked him out!
its too bad theres no film(as least im aware of) of ray to back up my theories and that theres not a lot of good info on him out there. he continues to remain one of the most underated heavyweight contenders of all time. ray is a guy who because of his hard punching aggresive swarming style, he will spell nightmares to some of the boxers in history. however due to ray's wildness and shaky chin, I suspect he will be very vunerable against some of the top all around big punchers.
I myself rate elmer ray in the top 30 heavyweights of all time. its a very questionable rating, and considerd a stretch but i stand by it. he was a top contender in a good underated heavyweight era filled some great fighters. ray also was able to beat two top 20 heavyweights all time. Ray at his best was a very good heavyweight. ray had good size 6'2 195-200lb for a heavyweight. Ray's heavy hands mixed with his strength, agression make him a formidable puncher. His inside fighting skills, elusiveness and sound defense make him more than just a puncher. If you put all that together, you get yourself a formidable heavyweight like Elmer Ray. Also the mark of a fighter is how his all around skill test against great fighters. In elmer rays case, he showed just how good he was. He proved himself a step above the other heavyweight contenders of that era, IMO.
Elmer Violent Ray is a heavyweight contender who will continue to be misunderstood and vastly underated. there is not a lot of info out there, and the fact there is no easy film to get of him(if there is any) makes him a hard figure to study. you can go to google and type in "turkey thompson" and you will get a picture of him. however try typing in "elmer ray" and you will get nothing. pics of elmer ray are even hard to find. perhaps someday, elmer ray will get his respect.
as for elmer rays opposition here is some of his best wins
W 10 5'11 210lb Otis Thomas- Thomas is unknown but he was one of the dangerous black fighters of the 40s. He was a fringe contender and very good boxer.
http://www.boxrec.com/media/images/8/80/Thomas.Otis.jpg
W 10 200lb Leroy Haynes - Haynes was a top contender in the 1930s and one of the highly feared and avoided black fighters of that era. haynes was a huge puncher and when he wasnt on cuffs, he was awesome.
http://www.boxrec.com/media/images/3/39 ... .Leroy.jpg
W 10 220lb Obie Walker- Walker is a highly unknown but dangerous contender of the 1930s who was the former colored champ when ray beat him. walker beat george godfrey to win the colored title in 33, which goes to show u how good walker was.
KO 2 6' 190lb Lee Savold- Savold was a top contender of the 1940s. savold was a classic boxer puncher with good boxing skills and a solid punch and he was also very durable. ray flattened savold in 2 easy rounds putting the fear of god into the top heavyweights in the world.
W 10 Ezzard Charles- charles is top 15 heavyweight of all time. the Ray loss is the only time charles lost officially at his peak. Charles is rated by many as a top 10 fighter p4p of all time, and is one of the greatest ring technicians of all time. charles was the # 1 contender at the time ray beat him.
W 10 Jersey Joe Walcott- Walcott is a top 15-20 heavyweight of all time. Walcott is one of the greatest ring technicians in heavyweight history, and is also a very good puncher too. walcott was the # 2 contender at the time when ray beat him.
KO 9 220lb Sid Peaks- big Sid Peaks was a MURDEROUS puncher. one of the hardest hitting heavyweight of the 1940s. Peaks was a big powerful fringe contender who always had that punchers chance. peaks scored 37 knockouts out of 44 wins.
as for ray, let me say i have never seen film of him. I have not heard of any ray film out there. perhaps some is out there in some incredible rare place, but as of now i dont know where to get film of ray. from the studying i done of ray, He was a puncher-swarmer who fought out of a crouch bobbing/weaving. Interesting to know when you consider elmer rays body type. I always thought ray was a standup boxerpuncher until i read fight reports talking about his bobbin and weavin out of a crouch style. as for the hands held high, Now i think its safe to say that if ray was to fight walcott and charles out of that position with his head sticking out, had he kept his hands low his face would have got taken off. So we can assume Ray kept his hands high. as far as I have read(which isnt much) Ray held his hands high, he was elusive, and not a stationary target, he put together accurate and powerful combinations. Ray was known as a devastating puncher by the press. Elmer "violent" Ray recorded 70 out of 85 KO's in his wins. Ray's biggest punch was his right hand which was viewed as one of the best punches in the heavyweight division at the time. ray as a puncher was aggresive but threw threw accurate combinations which made him deadly. Lee Savold a durable top contender had no idea how to stop ray's offense. according to the new york times, ray's punches were very crisp and sharp punches(modern trait) that savold was overwhelmed by. sounds similiar to joe louis punche huh? savold was eventually knocked out cold face down on the canvas by a huge right cross. Ray however proved he was more than just a puncher. Ray was very skilled boxer who established this against great fighters like walcott and charles. now ray was not as technically sound as walcott or charles , but he was much more powerful. so if you add his aggression and power punching arsenal to his good boxing skills, it makes him a very hard fighter to outpoint. Ray as a boxer was very elusive, and had good head movement with his bobbin and weaving style. Ray had a decent jab but it wasnt one of his specialties. and like most swarmers ray was good inside fighter. ray used his combination of size, power, strength well on the inside to wear down opponents. Ray was defintley not easy to hit in his crouch or this would have showed vs accurate first class counterpunches like charles and ray. Ray was most vunerable when he was on the attack, leaving his guard open at times, but you got to remember thats the other guy has to worry about defending ray's deadly punches before he concentrates on taking advantage of ray's open gaurd.
Rays record at his peak is impressive, but of course its flawed. he fought a lot of nobodies for years and didnt beat a good wide range of depth at all. however, you got to look at ray's record and realize quality counts more than quantity. ray beat on a bunch of nobodies, but when he did step up and face 1st teir great fighters, he was able to win. ray beat two top 20 heavyweights of all time. he should get critizied for the lack of depth he beat, but also remember that no one wanted to fight him. he was ducked in his prime for years and no challenger would fight him. at his peak as contender( 44-48 the only other top 10 guy he faced was lee savold and he completley dominated him. after that easy massacre, no manager wanted to throw there fighter in vs Ray. its too bad we didnt get to see ray vs some of the other top contenders or ray in a rematch vs thompson but as we know, ray did fight the two best heavyweights of the 40s(besides louis) in walcott and charles and the fact he was able to defeat them both shows his greatness. quality over quantity. im sure what ray did to savold he would have done to most of the other top contenders of the day. Savold beat in the prior 3 years had beat many of the top contenders out there like lem franklin, gus dorazio, lou nova, joe baski. Had ray got a title shot vs louis, it would have been in 1946 right after the win over walcott. this would have been a tough fight indeed for an aging louis vs a fighter of ray's calibre, but i have no doubt louis would have won by KO. ray's biggest flaw was he had a shaky chin. Thomspon took advantage of ray's shaky chin and knocked him out. charles also knocked ray out, and walcott floored ray 3 times in there 2nd encounter. in the 1930s before ray's best, he was knocked out often. a fight between louis and ray would have been a fearce slugout and I could see ray dropping louis. However, rays shaky chin and lack of good defense during his attack will spell his downfall to joe louis' punching arsenal on the inside. louis by early KO in action packed battle. not a good style matchup for ray. ray and louis actually fought a exhibitions in late 40s. in the first one, ray gave louis a whooping accoring to the papers. in the rematch, in a slow paced battle ray apparently decided to turn it into a real fight and slugged louis hard staggering the champion. to show you a testament to louis greatness, an angry louis went after ray and knocked him out!
its too bad theres no film(as least im aware of) of ray to back up my theories and that theres not a lot of good info on him out there. he continues to remain one of the most underated heavyweight contenders of all time. ray is a guy who because of his hard punching aggresive swarming style, he will spell nightmares to some of the boxers in history. however due to ray's wildness and shaky chin, I suspect he will be very vunerable against some of the top all around big punchers.
I myself rate elmer ray in the top 30 heavyweights of all time. its a very questionable rating, and considerd a stretch but i stand by it. he was a top contender in a good underated heavyweight era filled some great fighters. ray also was able to beat two top 20 heavyweights all time. Ray at his best was a very good heavyweight. ray had good size 6'2 195-200lb for a heavyweight. Ray's heavy hands mixed with his strength, agression make him a formidable puncher. His inside fighting skills, elusiveness and sound defense make him more than just a puncher. If you put all that together, you get yourself a formidable heavyweight like Elmer Ray. Also the mark of a fighter is how his all around skill test against great fighters. In elmer rays case, he showed just how good he was. He proved himself a step above the other heavyweight contenders of that era, IMO. Elmer Violent Ray is a heavyweight contender who will continue to be misunderstood and vastly underated. there is not a lot of info out there, and the fact there is no easy film to get of him(if there is any) makes him a hard figure to study. you can go to google and type in "turkey thompson" and you will get a picture of him. however try typing in "elmer ray" and you will get nothing. pics of elmer ray are even hard to find. perhaps someday, elmer ray will get his respect.
I rate elmer ray #29 greatest heavyweight of all time. herbert goldman rates elmer ray # 17 greatest heavyweight of all time.
elmer ray
http://www.boxrec.com/media/images/9/92/Ray_Elmer_1.jpg
elmer rays prime was around 1942-47 with his absolute peak being 1946. in his prime he lost just 3 times to turkey thompson, charles, walcott. the thompson fight was a case of elmer ray getting caught early and blown out by a top contender who was also a huge puncher. I might add all the credit goes out to turkey thompson, no exuses. this is a legit victory for thompson. Turkey was a very good contender of the 40s and was one of the avoided black contenders like harry bobo. ray and thompson also fought a NC in the fight before. someone once told me ray was dominating thompson until the fight ended, however i cant back that up and i dont have a fight report on how it turned into a NC.
his 2 other losses were to all time greats charles, and walcott. so really the only loss you have to question is the turkey thompson loss.
ray from 1944-47 was rated in the top 5 by RING magazine. In 1946-48 ray was rated in the top 2 and when you take into fact u had greats like charles, walcott, louis then thats impressive. ray during the mid 1940s was avoided like a plague from some of the top contenders(especially white ones), they wanted no part of ray. so instead, ray was forced to fight a lot of journeyman and bums in the 40s. Also ray's lack of good management was a cause. However, Ray was still unproven until he completley destroyed top 10 contender lee savold in 2 easy rounds. Ray now proved he was a threat to louis. Ray probably deserved a shot at louis title in 46, but never got it.
from 1945-48 Ray was a top contender. however, no one wanted to fight him. only the likes of ezzard charles and jersey joe walcott would fight him. that was the peak of ray's career. don't let the fact that elmer ray was 36 years old fool you, he got better with age.
in his peak, he went 1-1 with charles and walcott. both charles and walcott were pretty much at the peak of the careers. now you have to admit, thats damm impressive. charles only loss at his absolute peak was to ray.
now you can say the first ray-charle loss fight was a highly questionable decision that most thought charles won , but the fact that ray was fighting a peak charles 10 close even rounds is a high accomplishment itself!
i have the new york times report, and let me say the article isnt kind to both fighters. it even mentions both won't be able to compete vs louis if they fight him for the title. of course(this is before they realize how good ezzard is). ray in this fight was able to win so many rounds and earned the judges eye because of agression. Ray was very aggresive, even wild. Ray was a swarmer so thats not uncommon. in this fight the judges thought more of ray's aggresion than charles cautious counterpunching approach. charles outboxed ray in this fight and made ray miss alot in his aggresive offensive burts( now remember, charles defense is nothing short of spectacular). ray scored his points from some of the big power punches that were able to go home. ray's aggression, power punches, and inside fighting are what won him the fight because charles outboxed him the whole way from long range. and it wasnt like ray just landed here in there. elmer ray put together some very good combinations on the inside. you dont penetrate charles defense unless ur a good all around puncher. now its tough to determine how good rays defense in this fight was, since reports did say ray did leave himself open at times in his wild attacks. im sure that didnt mean he was wild hands low herky jerky. just that when he unloaded his artillery, his guard was vunerable. Remember Ray is a swarmer and a power punching agressive swarmer tends to do that. however, ray couldnt have been bad technically, or else he wouldnt have even stood a chance at winning rounds vs charles. Ray was able to get inside and land on charles because he was elusive and had a good punching arsenal. the times had charles winning only 6 rounds to 4, so that shows you basically the fight was even and the winner would be what you were looking for(rays aggresion, charles counterpunches).
charles knocked ray out in the rematch which shows charles greatness more than anything. ray was ruined by that fight, and retired a year later. even after the charles loss, he managed to beat top 10 contender huge punching sid peaks.
the two walcott bouts were close. the first one could have gone either way, but ray got the close decision. the first fight some big punches were landed, but the bout was fought at close quarters so it wasnt too exciting too the crowd apparently. Ray was a swarmer and was at his best on the inside. Walcott however is a master boxer and showed great inside fighting skills throughout his career. Ray staggered walcott many times in the fight nearly flooring walcott in round 3 with a right hand which buckeled jersey joes knees.
"throughout the encounter it was a case of walcott's left hook against ray's short right, with the head the target most of the time. the targets, in the main were mighty elusive, for there seemed to be as many punches missed as landed." - new york times on walcott-ray I
that must mean ray is pretty damm slick if there comparing his defense and elusiveness to walcotts. since the fight was so close, they fought a rematch with the winner deemed a shot at joe louis title. both were # 1 and # 2 contenders. walcott however knocked ray down 3 times and won a close but clearly convinsing decision though one judge voted in favor of ray . It was walcott who then got the shot at joe's title.
as for ray, let me first say i have never seen film of him. I have not heard of any ray film out there. perhaps some is out there in some incredible rare place, but as of now i dont know where to get film of ray. from the studying i done of ray, He was a puncher-swarmer who fought out of a crouch bobbing/weaving. Interesting to know when you consider elmer rays body type. I always thought ray was a standup boxerpuncher until i read fight reports talking about his bobbin and weavin out of a crouch style. as for the hands held high, Now i think its safe to say that if ray was to fight walcott and charles out of that position with his head sticking out, had he kept his hands low his face would have got taken off. So we can assume Ray kept his hands high. as far as I have read(which isnt much) Ray held his hands high, he was elusive, and not a stationary target, he put together accurate and powerful combinations. Ray was known as a devastating puncher by the press. Elmer "violent" Ray recorded 70 out of 85 KO's in his wins. Ray's biggest punch was his right hand which was viewed as one of the best punches in the heavyweight division at the time. ray as a puncher was aggresive but threw threw accurate combinations which made him deadly. Lee Savold a durable top contender had no idea how to stop ray's offense. according to the new york times, ray's punches were very crisp and sharp punches(modern trait) that savold was overwhelmed by. sounds similiar to joe louis punche huh? savold was eventually knocked out cold face down on the canvas by a huge right cross. Ray however proved he was more than just a puncher. Ray was very skilled boxer who established this against great fighters like walcott and charles. now ray was not as technically sound as walcott or charles , but he was much more powerful. so if you add his aggression and power punching arsenal to his good boxing skills, it makes him a very hard fighter to outpoint. Ray as a boxer was very elusive, and had good head movement with his bobbin and weaving style. Ray had a decent jab but it wasnt one of his specialties. and like most swarmers ray was good inside fighter. ray used his combination of size, power, strength well on the inside to wear down opponents. Ray was defintley not easy to hit in his crouch or this would have showed vs accurate first class counterpunches like charles and ray. Ray was most vunerable when he was on the attack, leaving his guard open at times, but you got to remember thats the other guy has to worry about defending ray's deadly punches before he concentrates on taking advantage of ray's open gaurd.
Rays record at his peak is impressive, but of course its flawed. he fought a lot of nobodies for years and didnt beat a good wide range of depth at all. however, you got to look at ray's record and realize quality counts more than quantity. ray beat on a bunch of nobodies, but when he did step up and face 1st teir great fighters, he was able to win. ray beat two top 20 heavyweights of all time. he should get critizied for the lack of depth he beat, but also remember that no one wanted to fight him. he was ducked in his prime for years and no challenger would fight him. at his peak as contender( 44-48 the only other top 10 guy he faced was lee savold and he completley dominated him. after that easy massacre, no manager wanted to throw there fighter in vs Ray. its too bad we didnt get to see ray vs some of the other top contenders or ray in a rematch vs thompson but as we know, ray did fight the two best heavyweights of the 40s(besides louis) in walcott and charles and the fact he was able to defeat them both shows his greatness. quality over quantity. im sure what ray did to savold he would have done to most of the other top contenders of the day. Savold beat in the prior 3 years had beat many of the top contenders out there like lem franklin, gus dorazio, lou nova, joe baski.
Had ray got a title shot vs louis, it would have been in 1946 right after the win over walcott. this would have been a tough fight indeed for an aging louis vs a fighter of ray's calibre, but i have no doubt louis would have won by KO. ray's biggest flaw was he had a shaky chin. Thomspon took advantage of ray's shaky chin and knocked him out. charles also knocked ray out, and walcott floored ray 3 times in there 2nd encounter. in the 1930s before ray's best, he was knocked out often. a fight between louis and ray would have been a fearce slugout and I could see ray dropping louis. However, rays shaky chin and lack of good defense during his attack will spell his downfall to joe louis' punching arsenal on the inside. louis by early KO in action packed battle. not a good style matchup for ray. ray and louis actually fought a exhibitions in late 40s. in the first one, ray gave louis a whooping accoring to the papers. in the rematch, in a slow paced battle ray apparently decided to turn it into a real fight and slugged louis hard staggering the champion. to show you a testament to louis greatness, an angry louis went after ray and knocked him out!
its too bad theres no film(as least im aware of) of ray to back up my theories and that theres not a lot of good info on him out there. he continues to remain one of the most underated heavyweight contenders of all time. ray is a guy who because of his hard punching aggresive swarming style, he will spell nightmares to some of the boxers in history. however due to ray's wildness and shaky chin, I suspect he will be very vunerable against some of the top all around big punchers.
I myself rate elmer ray in the top 30 heavyweights of all time. its a very questionable rating, and considerd a stretch but i stand by it. he was a top contender in a good underated heavyweight era filled some great fighters. ray also was able to beat two top 20 heavyweights all time. Ray at his best was a very good heavyweight. ray had good size 6'2 195-200lb for a heavyweight. Ray's heavy hands mixed with his strength, agression make him a formidable puncher. His inside fighting skills, elusiveness and sound defense make him more than just a puncher. If you put all that together, you get yourself a formidable heavyweight like Elmer Ray. Also the mark of a fighter is how his all around skill test against great fighters. In elmer rays case, he showed just how good he was. He proved himself a step above the other heavyweight contenders of that era, IMO.
Elmer Violent Ray is a heavyweight contender who will continue to be misunderstood and vastly underated. there is not a lot of info out there, and the fact there is no easy film to get of him(if there is any) makes him a hard figure to study. you can go to google and type in "turkey thompson" and you will get a picture of him. however try typing in "elmer ray" and you will get nothing. pics of elmer ray are even hard to find. perhaps someday, elmer ray will get his respect.
as for elmer rays opposition here is some of his best wins
W 10 5'11 210lb Otis Thomas- Thomas is unknown but he was one of the dangerous black fighters of the 40s. He was a fringe contender and very good boxer.
http://www.boxrec.com/media/images/8/80/Thomas.Otis.jpg
W 10 200lb Leroy Haynes - Haynes was a top contender in the 1930s and one of the highly feared and avoided black fighters of that era. haynes was a huge puncher and when he wasnt on cuffs, he was awesome.
http://www.boxrec.com/media/images/3/39 ... .Leroy.jpg
W 10 220lb Obie Walker- Walker is a highly unknown but dangerous contender of the 1930s who was the former colored champ when ray beat him. walker beat george godfrey to win the colored title in 33, which goes to show u how good walker was.
KO 2 6' 190lb Lee Savold- Savold was a top contender of the 1940s. savold was a classic boxer puncher with good boxing skills and a solid punch and he was also very durable. ray flattened savold in 2 easy rounds putting the fear of god into the top heavyweights in the world.
W 10 Ezzard Charles- charles is top 15 heavyweight of all time. the Ray loss is the only time charles lost officially at his peak. Charles is rated by many as a top 10 fighter p4p of all time, and is one of the greatest ring technicians of all time. charles was the # 1 contender at the time ray beat him.
W 10 Jersey Joe Walcott- Walcott is a top 15-20 heavyweight of all time. Walcott is one of the greatest ring technicians in heavyweight history, and is also a very good puncher too. walcott was the # 2 contender at the time when ray beat him.
KO 9 220lb Sid Peaks- big Sid Peaks was a MURDEROUS puncher. one of the hardest hitting heavyweight of the 1940s. Peaks was a big powerful fringe contender who always had that punchers chance. peaks scored 37 knockouts out of 44 wins.
as for ray, let me say i have never seen film of him. I have not heard of any ray film out there. perhaps some is out there in some incredible rare place, but as of now i dont know where to get film of ray. from the studying i done of ray, He was a puncher-swarmer who fought out of a crouch bobbing/weaving. Interesting to know when you consider elmer rays body type. I always thought ray was a standup boxerpuncher until i read fight reports talking about his bobbin and weavin out of a crouch style. as for the hands held high, Now i think its safe to say that if ray was to fight walcott and charles out of that position with his head sticking out, had he kept his hands low his face would have got taken off. So we can assume Ray kept his hands high. as far as I have read(which isnt much) Ray held his hands high, he was elusive, and not a stationary target, he put together accurate and powerful combinations. Ray was known as a devastating puncher by the press. Elmer "violent" Ray recorded 70 out of 85 KO's in his wins. Ray's biggest punch was his right hand which was viewed as one of the best punches in the heavyweight division at the time. ray as a puncher was aggresive but threw threw accurate combinations which made him deadly. Lee Savold a durable top contender had no idea how to stop ray's offense. according to the new york times, ray's punches were very crisp and sharp punches(modern trait) that savold was overwhelmed by. sounds similiar to joe louis punche huh? savold was eventually knocked out cold face down on the canvas by a huge right cross. Ray however proved he was more than just a puncher. Ray was very skilled boxer who established this against great fighters like walcott and charles. now ray was not as technically sound as walcott or charles , but he was much more powerful. so if you add his aggression and power punching arsenal to his good boxing skills, it makes him a very hard fighter to outpoint. Ray as a boxer was very elusive, and had good head movement with his bobbin and weaving style. Ray had a decent jab but it wasnt one of his specialties. and like most swarmers ray was good inside fighter. ray used his combination of size, power, strength well on the inside to wear down opponents. Ray was defintley not easy to hit in his crouch or this would have showed vs accurate first class counterpunches like charles and ray. Ray was most vunerable when he was on the attack, leaving his guard open at times, but you got to remember thats the other guy has to worry about defending ray's deadly punches before he concentrates on taking advantage of ray's open gaurd.
Rays record at his peak is impressive, but of course its flawed. he fought a lot of nobodies for years and didnt beat a good wide range of depth at all. however, you got to look at ray's record and realize quality counts more than quantity. ray beat on a bunch of nobodies, but when he did step up and face 1st teir great fighters, he was able to win. ray beat two top 20 heavyweights of all time. he should get critizied for the lack of depth he beat, but also remember that no one wanted to fight him. he was ducked in his prime for years and no challenger would fight him. at his peak as contender( 44-48 the only other top 10 guy he faced was lee savold and he completley dominated him. after that easy massacre, no manager wanted to throw there fighter in vs Ray. its too bad we didnt get to see ray vs some of the other top contenders or ray in a rematch vs thompson but as we know, ray did fight the two best heavyweights of the 40s(besides louis) in walcott and charles and the fact he was able to defeat them both shows his greatness. quality over quantity. im sure what ray did to savold he would have done to most of the other top contenders of the day. Savold beat in the prior 3 years had beat many of the top contenders out there like lem franklin, gus dorazio, lou nova, joe baski. Had ray got a title shot vs louis, it would have been in 1946 right after the win over walcott. this would have been a tough fight indeed for an aging louis vs a fighter of ray's calibre, but i have no doubt louis would have won by KO. ray's biggest flaw was he had a shaky chin. Thomspon took advantage of ray's shaky chin and knocked him out. charles also knocked ray out, and walcott floored ray 3 times in there 2nd encounter. in the 1930s before ray's best, he was knocked out often. a fight between louis and ray would have been a fearce slugout and I could see ray dropping louis. However, rays shaky chin and lack of good defense during his attack will spell his downfall to joe louis' punching arsenal on the inside. louis by early KO in action packed battle. not a good style matchup for ray. ray and louis actually fought a exhibitions in late 40s. in the first one, ray gave louis a whooping accoring to the papers. in the rematch, in a slow paced battle ray apparently decided to turn it into a real fight and slugged louis hard staggering the champion. to show you a testament to louis greatness, an angry louis went after ray and knocked him out!
its too bad theres no film(as least im aware of) of ray to back up my theories and that theres not a lot of good info on him out there. he continues to remain one of the most underated heavyweight contenders of all time. ray is a guy who because of his hard punching aggresive swarming style, he will spell nightmares to some of the boxers in history. however due to ray's wildness and shaky chin, I suspect he will be very vunerable against some of the top all around big punchers.
I myself rate elmer ray in the top 30 heavyweights of all time. its a very questionable rating, and considerd a stretch but i stand by it. he was a top contender in a good underated heavyweight era filled some great fighters. ray also was able to beat two top 20 heavyweights all time. Ray at his best was a very good heavyweight. ray had good size 6'2 195-200lb for a heavyweight. Ray's heavy hands mixed with his strength, agression make him a formidable puncher. His inside fighting skills, elusiveness and sound defense make him more than just a puncher. If you put all that together, you get yourself a formidable heavyweight like Elmer Ray. Also the mark of a fighter is how his all around skill test against great fighters. In elmer rays case, he showed just how good he was. He proved himself a step above the other heavyweight contenders of that era, IMO. Elmer Violent Ray is a heavyweight contender who will continue to be misunderstood and vastly underated. there is not a lot of info out there, and the fact there is no easy film to get of him(if there is any) makes him a hard figure to study. you can go to google and type in "turkey thompson" and you will get a picture of him. however try typing in "elmer ray" and you will get nothing. pics of elmer ray are even hard to find. perhaps someday, elmer ray will get his respect.
I rate elmer ray #29 greatest heavyweight of all time. herbert goldman rates elmer ray # 17 greatest heavyweight of all time.
elmer ray
http://www.boxrec.com/media/images/9/92/Ray_Elmer_1.jpg
Last edited by BrocktonBlockbuster49 on 13 Apr 2006, 18:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
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The Scranton Assassin
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 199
- Joined: 20 Jul 2004, 13:15
re
>>>According to the boxrec database, he didn't fight between 1928 and 1936. Is this correct? If so why didn't he?<<<
That part of his career just hasn't been researched. It's possible that Ray is missing 100 early bouts that have not been recorded yet. Elmer Ray is one of the more difficult cases that someone could research, but it would be a very worthwhile project for anyone who lives near the Library of Congress to go back and search through the early newspapers of the time.
That part of his career just hasn't been researched. It's possible that Ray is missing 100 early bouts that have not been recorded yet. Elmer Ray is one of the more difficult cases that someone could research, but it would be a very worthwhile project for anyone who lives near the Library of Congress to go back and search through the early newspapers of the time.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
Decagon wrote:Burley also knocked out Jersey Joe Walcott in sparring.-KOKid- wrote:There's a great story of Elmer Ray's sparringsession with Charley Burley, who was a natural 154 lber.
When Ray found out himself getting soundly outboxed by the smaller man, he decided to fight like a heavyweight and went at Burley guns blazing.
The next thing he knows he is lying flat on his back and staring at the roof. It turns out he had been there for several minutes - Burley had knocked him spark out!
-KOKid-
burley knocked out a prime jersey joe walcott? NO WAY.
OMG A PAST HIS PRIME WALCOTT BEAT EZZARD CHARLES AND NEARLY BEAT ROCKY MARCIANO. IF BURLEY FLATTENED A PRIME JERSEY JOE WALCOTT THEN THAT MEANS...........
BURLEY KO CHARLES
BURLEY KO MARCIANO
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pound per pound
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1595
- Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 14:36
Re: Ray
Much of Ray’s early career is up in the air. He fought in Florida as a youth, and also participated in Battle Royals. Ray was a big puncher. He must have been a star in the battle royal matches which paid little attention to the size, age and ability of the combatants.barry wrote:>>>According to the boxrec database, he didn't fight between 1928 and 1936. Is this correct? If so why didn't he?<<<
That part of his career just hasn't been researched. It's possible that Ray is missing 100 early bouts that have not been recorded yet. Elmer Ray is one of the more difficult cases that someone could research, but it would be a very worthwhile project for anyone who lives near the Library of Congress to go back and search through the early newspapers of the time.
I have often wondered how or where Elmer picked up his nick name “Voilent “
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
Elmer Ray likely missed out a lot in the Depression because everyone was having a hard time. Even good white fighters had trouble getting decent paydays. Black fighters would've had it tough unless they were willing to take a dive once in a while. Chances are also that Elmer may have had to serve time in the local gaol during those years. Someone should look into that.
Cap
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