Carrying on with my 'Best Win Series'.. Going a bit old school..
He had recorded 56 wins, with 37 KO's!
Record:
Had a record of 22-3 (14 KOs) in world title fights.
Had a record of 14-5 (9 KOs) against World Champions
Had a record of 11-0 (5 KOs) in rematches.
Had a record of 11-3-0 (8 KOs) against International Boxing Hall of Fame inductees
Which was his best and/or defining win?
What was his best KO win?
Some names that he has fought include:
Archie Moore
Henry Cooper
Sonny Liston
Floyd Patterson
Ernie Terrell
Joe Frazier
Joe Bugner
Ken Norton
George Foreman
Earnie Shavers
Leon Spinks
--------------------
Another question..
Regardless of win/loss.. Who was his best opponent?
From the list above, this would include the likes of:
Best win?
Foreman was the best opponent that he beat, follwed by Frazier. some would argue for Frazier though. Liston would be 3rd.
Ali was a better fighter from 1964-1967 then when he beat them; he had better performances at that time than when he beat Foreman and Frazier.
Best opponent, I would still go with Foreman, some people would go with Frazier or Holmes. Liston would be 4th. It would be between Norton and Patterson for 5th and 6th. (counting Moore and Foster for what they did at heavyweight)
Ali was at his best when he beat Foreman ... and Foreman was at his worst...
Foreman weighed 280 coming into camp... He was in horrendous shape... Foreman had trained almost non-stop from early 1969 to January 1973 when he crushed Frazier... Then he relaxed and smelled the roses for a while... It worked well against Joe Roman. He started camp at about 245 and came in at 219... He worked hard as usual. Roman was on his feet for less than 2 minutes... George even hit Roman when he was flat on his back and got no negative feed back.
For Norton he started camp at 260 and got to the low 220's... He slacked just a little bit... He had a leg that was in really bad shape, but he was still handling his sparring partners with such ease and the leg gave him no trouble during the fight, for which Norton was on his feet for 4 minutes and change... Foreman even switched to southpaw at one point during the fight when he ripped Norton with 5 straight rights to score the first knockdown...
Foreman slipped a few punches and even got a quick jab on the thoroughly intimidated former US Marine... Given the fact that Norton went 1-1 with Ali and got jabs, right hands, left hooks, uppercuts and even blooping shots on Ali, some of Foreman's team members, including Archie Moore and Dick Saddler got a little rash in their assessments of the inevitable matchup with Ali... Not only had Foreman crushed Norton like a roach, but he made undefeated Heavyweight Champion Joe Frazier (who beat Ali in the so-called FOTC) look like a volunteer from the audience who grabbed an opportunity to stay 4-rounds with the champ for a 1000 dollars. You got the sense that the members of Foreman's team were sniffing some pretty rare air.. Most Boxing people I talked to said Ali was slipping and Foreman was the King from here out.
I always look at match-ups from the opposite point of view of everyone else... As sure as an earthquake, flood, hail storm, tornado, fire, medfly invasion, title wave, or hurricane is going to happen - a boxing upset is around the corner... It will knock "safe" bettors right on their can... I'm a safe bettor myself - meaning I often bet on huge favorites cuz it's easy money... The problem is you build up your account nicely with 5% to 30% returns... Then a right cross nails you and half of everything you’ve won is gone with 1 swing of the ax... Your whole bet is gone... All you had to do was bet on the underdog and you'd have gotten 800% on your investment.
By the time Foreman took the ring versus Ali he hadn’t been past the 2nd round in 3 years. That’s a long time for a 25-year old kid to have very short fights... Foreman had a lot of “yes men” around him and liked it that way. He didn’t have a disciplinarian or chief bitcher like D’Amato, Blackburn, Dundee, Steward, or Abel Sanchez... Hard driven fighters like Tunney, Mayweather, the Klitchkos, or Joshua don’t need anybody cracking the whip. But most boxers need that. If your guy shows up for camp weighing 280 you can’t sound like a mouse roaring at a lion. Very few trainers have the strength of personality to bring down the hammer. I’ve seen fighters grab their stuff and head back out the gym because their trainer said something they didn’t like. “How many World Titles have you won MFer? I’ll see your dumb ass tomorrow if I don’t decide to fire you” leaving trainers and sparring partners looking at each other all because the head trainer couldn’t command the respect of his fighter.
The important thing was...that version of Foreman never fought a good boxer and went for the early KO. A good boxer doesn’t believe anyone can knock him out. He’s never been knocked out. Possibly he’s never been knocked down. He has nothing but contempt for a puncher and thinks he can outsmart him 8 days a week. Ali knew Norton and Frazier were face first fighters who were very easy to hit. Norton and Frazier tried to sound confident facing Foreman, but sounded like a joke. Sounded scared to death of ghosts while whistling past a graveyard. Ali’s confidence was genuine. He really felt he would win. That doesn’t mean he’s going to win - but it means he’s not going in scared. He won’t freeze up as soon as the “monster” hits him real good... He’s not going to roll over or beat himself mentally. Ali knew that Foreman was used to ending fights quickly ... and hadn’t fought a single standup boxer who had size, range, craft, and resistance.
golden oldie wrote: ↑19 Dec 2017, 21:23
Foreman was a big stupid, naive, plum who literally punched himself out
The big, stupid naive plum was off for a stretch of 10 years with no fights - not 3 years and 7 months like Ali.
From there a 38-year-old Foreman learned how to box, relax, and pace himself well.... use a bit of strategy.... regained the Lineal Heavyweight Title 20 years after losing it.... cut business deals that netted him 100's of millions of dollars.... finished his career of 81 fights at age 48 in relatively good health.... with the ability to be an expert boxing commentator.... as well as the TV spokesperson for a number of commercial products and enterprises.... and even his kids said he was dumb to make a comeback at 38.... It almost seems like when everyone tells you that you CAN'T do something.... that's when some people get motivated.
But not bad going for such a big, stupid, naive plum wouldn't you say.... Ali didn't do well at 38.... Neither did Liston
Regardless of win/loss.. Who was his best opponent?
All three answers..
George Foreman
Best win, best KO win, the image of Foreman scattering around the ring before falling is legendary. Best opponent. Kalan mentioned him not being at his best etc. But only Kalan will know that.
HAH!!! .... Foreman missed prime years as well ... and a Hell of a lot MORE of them...
Ali also fought "exhibitions" with regulation size gloves and no headgear preparing for his comeback... You don't need a professional boxing license for a public sparring session it turns out... He was perfectly tuned for his comeback fight with Quarry at 28... Foreman fought no exhibitions and was a whale at 38 for his come back fight with unknown Steve Zouski.
Foreman's prospects looked laughable and writers had fun at his expense.... George had the last laugh 7 years later.
And old George is still grinning all the way to the bank as his checks from all his business deals keep rolling in.
Kalan wrote: ↑20 Dec 2017, 12:59
HAH!!! .... Foreman missed prime years as well ... and a Hell of a lot MORE of them...
Foreman retired after being beaten, Ali was undefeated when he went into exile. When Foreman came back he chose the easiest possible comeback opponents and route to the title, Ali came back and went straight in with a top 10 ranked fighter.
Foreman took the long hard road... That 10 years gave him loads of time to think about all his mistakes in his losses... He knew he needed to learn to pace himself much better, relax, save his energy, bide his time, and make his shots count.
He started over like a kid making his pro debut... By the time he had 20 comeback fights he thought he was ready for EH... He wasn't but he kept going... Belief in yourself when everyone is shaking their heads over your foolishness is a big deal. George did what people didn't think was possible at the time.
Kalan wrote: ↑20 Dec 2017, 13:41
Foreman took the long hard road... That 10 years gave him loads of time to think about all his mistakes in his losses... He knew he needed to learn to pace himself much better, relax, save his energy, bide his time, and make his shots count.
Didn't he just have 1 loss to Ali when he retired? Did he lose anything else? Mentally? Physically?
Kalan wrote: ↑20 Dec 2017, 13:41
Foreman took the long hard road... That 10 years gave him loads of time to think about all his mistakes in his losses... He knew he needed to learn to pace himself much better, relax, save his energy, bide his time, and make his shots count.
Didn't he just have 1 loss to Ali when he retired? Did he lose anything else? Mentally? Physically?
Jimmy Young dropped and outpointed him, then he retired.
Right.... Foreman insisted privately that he was drugged when Ali beat him... He said he was running out of gas by the 3rd round and thought there's no way that could possibly happen unless somebody drugged him.
When Jimmy Young beat him he was really discouraged... Gil Clancy had him thinking he could outbox Young because he was bigger and taller with a longer reach ... and there was no way. He lacked the patience and boxing skills because he had been so focused on destroying everybody he fought... It took him a loooooong time before he had the answers...
Kalan wrote: ↑20 Dec 2017, 16:54
Right.... Foreman insisted privately that he was drugged when Ali beat him... He said he was running out of gas by the 3rd round and thought there's no way that could possibly happen unless somebody drugged him.
Not that old chestnut, the fight shows that was a load of nonsense.
Maybe one of the best remembered performance in boxing history.
Beating Frazier in that titanic struggle in Manila was certainly iconic, but toppling the fearsome, brutish Foreman in the Zaire dawn, will be something talked about as long as the sport of boxing exists.
Kalan wrote: ↑20 Dec 2017, 16:54
Right.... Foreman insisted privately that he was drugged when Ali beat him... He said he was running out of gas by the 3rd round and thought there's no way that could possibly happen unless somebody drugged him.
Not that old chestnut, the fight shows that was a load of nonsense
Well I think so because of the Young loss... Similar boxing style, pinking with the jab and right crosses... Young could go inside though, and did some body work that Ali couldn't do.
Foreman lost a lot of weight in the Ali camp... He was cut badly sparring, and the camp wasn't that good... he looked nothing like the ripped and ready Foreman who yanked the title from Frazier so emphatically... If you're losing 50 or 60 pounds in camp your sparring suffers... You'll feel sluggish... He also never finished the 2nd round in fights going back for 3 years ..... and had a had a 7 or 8 month break between each of his 4 title fights in his mid 20's... He did indulge himself.... Nothing like Buster Douglas, but with a D'Amato or Blackburn guiding him it would have been different.
Kalan wrote: ↑20 Dec 2017, 16:54
Right.... Foreman insisted privately that he was drugged when Ali beat him... He said he was running out of gas by the 3rd round and thought there's no way that could possibly happen unless somebody drugged him.
Not that old chestnut, the fight shows that was a load of nonsense
Well I think so because of the Young loss... Similar boxing style, pinking with the jab and right crosses... Young could go inside though, and did some body work that Ali couldn't do.
Foreman lost a lot of weight in the Ali camp... He was cut badly sparring, and the camp wasn't that good... he looked nothing like the ripped and ready Foreman who yanked the title from Frazier so emphatically... If you're losing 50 or 60 pounds in camp your sparring suffers... You'll feel sluggish... He also never finished the 2nd round in fights going back for 3 years ..... and had a had a 7 or 8 month break between each of his 4 title fights in his mid 20's... He did indulge himself.... Nothing like Buster Douglas, but with a D'Amato or Blackburn guiding him it would have been different.
Foreman struggled with movement or decent boxers, he was great against guys who stood toe to toe or tried to slug it out. His first career was full of little guys too, many were under 200lb including one of his title challengers which probably didn't do him many favours as he was never really tested. Foreman was strong but limited and came close to being knocked out by Lyle who was the first fighter he fought who was the same size and weight as him who could also dish it out as well.
Even in his second career, where he had improved in many ways, he still struggled with guys like Alex Stewart, Tommy Morrison (who gave him lots of movement) and Axel Schulz. Even the blown up LHW Moorer was clearly outboxing him until he landed the KO punch.
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Last edited by Controversial on 20 Dec 2017, 19:52, edited 2 times in total.
Tony1244 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2017, 19:47
I always thought it Bugner could have done to Foreman what Jimmy Young did.
I always thought Duane Bobick could have done to Ali what Leon Spinks did.
Matter of timing
I don't know if you saw Marvis Frazier vs Joe Bugner... Marvis had 9 pro fights and didn't have an extensive amateur background... Plus he was basically a Cruiserweight but he had good coaching... Marvis beat Bugner easily... The big blond couldn't move his head to slip, duck, or roll a punch and the upstart kid drummed him with punches.. Foreman would murder the immobile Bug.. Frank Bruno was as clumsy as Bugner and beat the crap out of him.
Duane Bobick was even easier to hit than Bugner if that's possible for a world ranked Heavyweight... Joe Frazier bought Bobick's contract because he thought the only thing Duane needed was good coaching... But they couldn't get Duane's shoulders right or his head back so he could slip and duck punches better no matter what they did... They couldn't get his stance corrected or his footwork.. As soon as Duane traded punches everything went right back to the way he always did it... Even Eddie Futch couldn't do much with Duane and he's one of the greatest trainers ever.
It's always a massive challenge to correct flaws in anyone who's been boxing since he was 10... Futch finally decided Ken Norton might be the right contender to go after.. Duane was 38-0 and they needed to move him up sometime.. Frazier reluctantly agreed.. Norton was a little chinny and at that time Duane appeared to suck it up pretty well.. His left hook wasn't terrible and his straight right could hurt you... Duane looked terrible, couldn't defend well, and had 2 left feet, but an offensive fighter like Foreman ran over Norton like he was nothing.. The super skinny Garcia murdered Norton.. Norton was right there to be hit ... "Kenny will underestimate Duane... Let's try it."
Norton was friends with both Frazier and Futch... "I'm extremely insulted that they believe this clown can beat me."
I don't see the worst Ali having any problems with Bobick... It's something he'd relish in fact.
Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑19 Dec 2017, 11:55
Carrying on with my 'Best Win Series'.. Going a bit old school..
He had recorded 56 wins, with 37 KO's!
Record:
Had a record of 22-3 (14 KOs) in world title fights.
Had a record of 14-5 (9 KOs) against World Champions
Had a record of 11-0 (5 KOs) in rematches.
Had a record of 11-3-0 (8 KOs) against International Boxing Hall of Fame inductees
Which was his best and/or defining win?
What was his best KO win?
Some names that he has fought include:
Archie Moore
Henry Cooper
Sonny Liston
Floyd Patterson
Ernie Terrell
Joe Frazier
Joe Bugner
Ken Norton
George Foreman
Earnie Shavers
Leon Spinks
--------------------
Another question..
Regardless of win/loss.. Who was his best opponent?
From the list above, this would include the likes of:
Larry Holmes
Trevor Berbick
Defining Win: Foreman
Best KO: Frazier III
Best Opponent: Holmes
Some say he was at his best the night he stopped Cleveland Williams; which makes me bemoan yet again the 'lost years.'
Foreman wrote in one of his bios (the same one he admitted that he was never drugged in Zaire) that he didn't really look at the Ali fight as a boxing match.
He was so superbly confident in his vaunted power that he wanted to see what it would be like to kill a man in the ring.
Strategy and technique was the last thing on Foreman's mind that night. He was actually attempting an execution and paid the price for his crazed, headstrong sloppiness.
The Foreman who demolished Frazier and Norton wasn't yet ridiculously enamored with his own power.
By time he fought Ali, however, he thought of himself as an indestructible, unstoppable force and eschewed a battle plan. He felt he didn't need one.
Foreman was embarrassed and humbled that memorable night.
Foreman was actually a little concerned before the Ali fight.
He had a really bad camp, having to lose a ton of weight and getting badly cut.. And his sparring wasn't that great.. He actually knew he was in trouble before the fight, but thought he could get past about anything because he beat Norton with a bad knee... He had something like 8 straight fights that ended in 1 or 2 rounds... That went back 3 years to when he was 22... That's not really what you want when you need to make sure you have the conditioning to go 15 rounds.
The problem was, Foreman hadn't fought a good stand-up Heavyweight boxer like Holmes or Young -- because there weren't any in the top ranks of the Heavyweight Division when he was coming up... There were no really good stand up boxers to even spar with - because Ali snapped up Larry Holmes as soon as he had a few fights... Larry was in Ali's camp.
The great Muhammad Ali best win?
Easily, WKO8 George Foreman.... October 30, 1974....."Ali Bomaye!"
Best knockout? WKO8 George Foreman.
Best performance? WTKO3 Cleveland Williams. It was Ali display of all his physical and technical skills. His speed of hands and feet was unbelievable.
Best opponent? The great Joe Frazier in The Fight of the Century. I have never seen a heavyweight that fought that great. Ali was magnificent also. Great fight.
