Marciano v Liston

[nobleart1978]

How would a 1952 Marciano have fared against a 1961 Liston ?

[dr_devious]

Badly

[Kalan]

Another Foreman vs Frazier affair except more lopsided....

Marciano would give up 14 inches in reach and 30 pounds... He'd get murdered with uppercuts in close like Patterson did... Patterson was actually a little bigger, taller, and longer than Rocky, but started taking head shots soon after the opening bell started the fight... It was the most hopeless mismatch any defending Heavyweight Champion ever faced.

You have to remember Patterson is the same dude who took apart Marciano's last opponent Archie Moore (a Light Heavyweight) like he was nothing .... getting rid of him in 5 rounds and not visiting the canvas like Rocky did.

[Crease]

Marciano would be Sonny's worst nightmare.

An opponent with zero quit in him, a guy who he couldnt intimidate or bully...

Rocky would take him into the mid rounds and knock him spark out.

Sonny Liston struggled & lost to worse fighters than Rocky Marciano.

[Ambling Alp II]

To be fair to Liston, he was not at his best vs Marshall and Martin.
Marciano struggled with Lowrey, La Starza, Walcott, Charles, and Moore. Liston struggled with Machen and Whitehurst.

[Seamus]

I'd take Liston by cuts in a fairly one sided bout in around the 10th or 11th round.

[Kalan]

An opponent with zero quit in him, a guy who he couldnt intimidate or bully...

Well.... It's really a matter of size, strength, athletic ability, and styles you see...

NOBODY bullied or intimidated Joe Frazier... He was undefeated and 10-0 in World Heavyweight championship fights when he met his match... Frazier was man who sparked out ATG Light Heavyweight Champion Bob Foster out quickly, mowing him down like he was a Middleweight... A old Light Heavyweight who had 19 previous losses knocked Marciano down and went 9 rounds with him...and why not?? .Archie Moore was about the same size as Rocky... What would have happened if Rocky fought Floyd Patterson who blew Moore away in 5 rounds?? We'll never know.

But getting back to Joe Frazier, who was 10-0 in Heavyweight Championship Fights and a 4/1 favorite to beat the tyro George Foreman... But when the 2 combatants stepped into the ring it was shocking -- cuz Foreman was rock hard and ripped to the gills -- and so much bigger and taller... His arms and shoulders were twice as big and so much longer than Frazier's... It didn't look like it was going to work for Joe and he looked scared out of his wits... Smokin' was murdered with uppercuts and 45's, dumped to the canvas numerous times, and dispatched in 2 rounds.

Floyd Patterson liked to pressure his opponents and drive them all over the ring behind a 2-fisted attack like Marciano... That was Patterson's style... Floyd basically beat Light Heavyweight Archie Moore using the same strategy Marciano used, except he did it better, quicker, with sharper and faster punches, and without getting decked... Patterson basically beat every man he ever fought until he met up with Sonny Liston at age 27 because all eleven reporters at ringside had Patterson beating Joey Maxim easily when he weighed only 168 and had only 13 fights ..... and was robbed blind.

But Patterson was a small Heavyweight like Marciano... Frazier was over 200 and big enough to bully guys who were Marciano's size like Quarry and Zyglewicz... But Patterson looked mismatched and out of his weight class standing next to Liston and the whole adventure looked a little silly at that point... Patterson looked scared as Hell... Liston looked mean as Hell and as threatening as a human being could get... Sonny came out and knocked the living fukk out of Floyd getting rid of him pronto... Marciano---who could be floored by Light Heavyweights---would be dealt with quickly.

[SenorPipino]

Liston's jab, often compared to being hit by a telephone pole, would be in Marciano's mug from the opening bell.

It figures to be only a matter how much punishment the Rock could withstand.

I don't expect it to be a quick fight, because Marciano had a ton of heart. He would never quit.

But Sonny would have broken Marciano down, battered him about the face, and probably earn the victory in about 9 rounds with the referee saving Marciano from an ongoing drubbing.

[Tony1244]

They're close enough in age and timezone that I think you may as well pick a year. 1958? 1959? Nine years difference in age is hardly unheard of.

I really could see it going either way. Liston freaked out by Rocky's crouch and caught on the button by power he's not used to or Sonny beating his body and face into a bloody pulp.

In other words, I really have no idea, but everyone else does.

[jas80s]

Liston gets a lot of mileage off of two wins over Patterson. Marciano is just better than people give him credit for. And he certainly showed that he is a tougher challenge by far than anyone Liston beat. Liston was not made of steel by any stretch. Sure, I suppose it's quite possible that Liston uses a long jab to bust him up, but if Marciano reaches him like plenty of others did, Liston is going down. Ironic, since I am a "good big man beats a good little man" in most cases, but damn if Rocky doesn't make you question that kind of thinking...

[Crease]

Well.... It's really a matter of size, strength, athletic ability, and styles you see...

I agree, but let's not paint the picture of Sonny Liston being some sort of supreme athlete. If he were that dominant then he wouldn't be losing to Marty Marshall, would he?

An old Light Heavyweight who had 19 previous losses knocked Marciano down and went 9 rounds with him...and why not?

Two things to point out.
1 - Archie was in his prime when he fought Marciano, there was nothing "old" about him. He was still knocking around seven years later when he fought Muhammad Ali.

2 - Archie holds the record for the most Knockouts in professional boxing history... It's hardly a criticism for Rocky getting knocked off-balance for a few mere seconds. He was back up immediately.

What would have happened if Rocky fought Floyd Patterson

That's a simple one. Patterson is too light & too fragile to hold Rocky at bay. Rocky would come steaming forward and find Patterson's chin. Good Night Floyd.

[banjo]

Listons defeat to Marshall was early in his career in something like his 7th fight, he defeated Marshal twice after that and all of that was prior to Listons 22 month lay off where he came back and pulverised several top contenders before destroying Patterson twice.

Don't hold early defeats against someone, that would be like saying Henry Armstrong wasn't that good because he got KO'd on his debut and lost 3 of his first 4 fights.

[Controversial]

Liston, like Foreman, fought many small guys too. He wasn't as huge as people make out either, he was 6'1" and 200lbs in his pro debut. In fact Marshall who first beat Liston and broke his jaw was lighter than Marciano at 180lbs

24 of his opponents before facing Ali were 200lb and under. Liston was big for the era but not freakishly so.

[Ambling Alp II]

Moore was a rare exception to the rule of age/wear and tear. He was better in his late 30s than when he was in his 20s. He was coming off some good wins when he fought Marciano. AS Crease alluded to, for the most part Marciano was in control of that fight.

It's quite leap to think that since Liston easily beat Patterson, and Patterson beat Moore easier than Marciano did, that Marciano would have no chance against Liston. It doesn't always work that smoothly.

(btw- Machen got beat worse by Patterson than he did by Liston. )

Patterson fought one of the best fights of his career against Moore. Moore fought one his worst.
No saying that Marciano would win, but it isn't as cut and dry as some people make this out to be.

[Kalan]

Moore was a rare exception to the rule of age/wear and tear. He was better in his late 30s than when he was in his 20s. He was coming off some good wins when he fought Marciano. AS Crease alluded to, for the most part Marciano was in control of that fight.

It's quite leap to think that since Liston easily beat Patterson, and Patterson beat Moore easier than Marciano did, that Marciano would have no chance against Liston. It doesn't always work that smoothly.

(btw- Machen got beat worse by Patterson than he did by Liston. )

Patterson fought one of the best fights of his career against Moore. Moore fought one his worst.
No saying that Marciano would win, but it isn't as cut and dry as some people make this out to be

Very few people thought Frazier-Foreman was a cut and dried win for Foreman... But I thought it was..

I figured it was damned near impossible for the undefeated Frazier, who won 10 Title Fights, to beat a man who had a natural 25-pound weight advantage ..... plus a massive strength advantage -- and also had massive height and reach advantages ..... along with arms that were twice as big and strong..... The way Frazier won all his fights is by absorbing everything anybody could throw and clubbing them into the canvas... Wasn't going to work with Foreman.

Liston-Marciano is a very similar match-up... A very short, small 184-pound Heavyweight with short little arms and a poor defense.... Walcott and Charles were WAY past their best... Charles lost to super slow Nino Valdez and lost to Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson, both in 1953 - the year before he went 15 rounds with Marciano... Rocky struggled to get even small Heavyweights out of there... Goldman and Weill kept him away from big Heavyweights because his particular style was like Joe Frazier's... He came after you and beat you down and Liston was the wrong style for him...

Patterson had a somewhat similar style to Frazier and Marciano... Patterson was more of a boxer, but he was an extremely aggressive boxer... He drove you back with tremendous power shots from either hand... Patterson drove Eddie Machen all over the ring an kept the pressure on... Liston boxed Machen and it was an easy fight for him, but it was a boxing match because Machen didn't come at him... But punchers who came forward like Cleveland Williams or Floyd Patterson??? They came right into Sonny Liston's wheel house like Frazier attacking Foreman..

Frazier did well with Ali... Ali did well with Foreman... Foreman did SUPER with Frazier... The most one-sided match-up in Boxing is an aggressive "fighter" against a puncher... Marciano vs Patterson is better... and either vs Liston is suicide.

[jas80s]

Liston gets a lot of mileage off of two wins over Patterson.

Oh the irony!!! Care to list the ages, and career stats of Marciano's 5 world title fight opponents, before talking about mileages gained.

There is even one Rocky fan who somehow works out Moore was still " in his prime " 3 months short of his 39th birthday, and having been beaten 19 times thus far. Truth of the matter is when Ancient Archie challenged a Heavyweight champion, or a fighter who went on to become one he got stopped easily. ( I don't count Nevada's recognition of the Valdes fight. )

I was making that point about Patterson in response to the tone of this thread which saw everyone outside of one person, not simply picking Liston, but assuming that he would pretty much obliterate Marciano. It was a context thing.

Of course, you can pick apart Marciano's ledger, but that has been done to death. In fact, I would argue that Marciano's ledger has been attacked by those who would seek to undermine his accomplishments so often and so vociferously that his resume is now probably underrated.

So, let's just stay with the point. Liston's best wins are the Patterson wins. What is his next best win? Zora Folley? Eddie Machen? Cleveland WIlliams? Fine fighters of course, but is it some leap over Marciano? I think not. In fact, I am more impressed with beating Walcott and Charles twice along with Archie Moore. And of course, was Marciano out boxed and beaten by Marty Marshall? No. Was Marciano knocked out by 199 pound Leotis Martin? No. So, let's not pretend that there isn't evidence in Sonny's career that would lead you to believe Marciano could and would be successful.

Sorry, didn't mean to go all Kalan on you by telling you what you already know, but Liston was beaten and he was KO'd and his wins just don't blow me away. Thus, my attempt to deduce what exactly about Liston's track record that had people so impressed.

Pretending that Marciano was in over his head is based on what exactly? The reach advantage? As if Marciano didn't regularly give away reach and in fact use that disparity to his advantage. In the end, I don't see anything in Liston's actual performance that leads me to believe that this is some one sided beat down.

[jas80s]

Liston gets a lot of mileage off of two wins over Patterson.

Oh the irony!!! Care to list the ages, and career stats of Marciano's 5 world title fight opponents, before talking about mileages gained.

There is even one Rocky fan who somehow works out Moore was still " in his prime " 3 months short of his 39th birthday, and having been beaten 19 times thus far. Truth of the matter is when Ancient Archie challenged a Heavyweight champion, or a fighter who went on to become one he got stopped easily. ( I don't count Nevada's recognition of the Valdes fight. )

I was making that point about Patterson in response to the tone of this thread which saw everyone outside of one person, not simply picking Liston, but assuming that he would pretty much obliterate Marciano. It was a context thing.

Of course, you can pick apart Marciano's ledger, but that has been done to death. In fact, I would argue that Marciano's ledger has been attacked by those who would seek to undermine his accomplishments so often and so vociferously that his resume is now probably underrated.

So, let's just stay with the point. Liston's best wins are the Patterson wins. What is his next best win? Zora Folley? Eddie Machen? Cleveland WIlliams? Fine fighters of course, but is it some leap over Marciano's record? I think not. In fact, I am more impressed with beating Walcott and Charles twice along with Archie Moore. And of course, was Marciano out boxed and beaten by Marty Marshall? No. Was Marciano knocked out by 199 pound Leotis Martin? No. So, let's not pretend that there isn't evidence in Sonny's career that would lead you to believe Marciano could and would be successful.

Sorry, didn't mean to go all Kalan on you by telling you what you already know, but Liston was beaten and he was KO'd and his wins just don't blow me away. Thus, my attempt to deduce what exactly about Liston's track record that had people so impressed.

Pretending that Marciano was in over his head is based on what exactly? The reach advantage? As if Marciano didn't regularly give away reach and in fact use that disparity to his advantage. In the end, I don't see anything in Liston's actual performance that leads me to believe that this is some one sided beat down.

[gilgamesh]

I think Liston would hammer the crap out of Marciano. Marciano would get sliced to ribbons by Liston's sledgehammer jab, and knocked out inside 6 rounds I think. Marciano is as gutsy as they come, but I don't think he'd have the strength to compete with Liston.

I also think Liston has superior technique on top of that. So it'd be a real tough night for Rock.

[Tomasino]

Marciano is a wild card in any fight. All the guys who fought him speak of his numbing power. While sat next to Joe Louis, Jersey Joe said Marciano was the bigger hitter. He was also, according to one of the top five ATGs Ezzard Charles, much harder to hit clean than it appeared.

Id have him taking a bit of punishment for 5 rounds or so before his stamina started to take over. Then Listons bullys heart would start to flutter and he'd be bludgeoned to the canvas a couple of times before wearily taking the count, between rnds 10-13. No chance Sonny hears the final bell.

[gilgamesh]

Marciano is a wild card in any fight. All the guys who fought him speak of his numbing power. While sat next to Joe Louis, Jersey Joe said Marciano was the bigger hitter. He was also, according to one of the top five ATGs Ezzard Charles, much harder to hit clean than it appeared.

Id have him taking a bit of punishment for 5 rounds or so before his stamina started to take over. Then Listons bullys heart would start to flutter and he'd be bludgeoned to the canvas a couple of times before wearily taking the count, between rnds 10-13. No chance Sonny hears the final bell.

If Rocky makes it into the 2nd half of a 15 round fight the advantage could definitely turn in his favor, I'm just not sure he'd be able to get there against Liston.

[Tomasino]

Marciano is a wild card in any fight. All the guys who fought him speak of his numbing power. While sat next to Joe Louis, Jersey Joe said Marciano was the bigger hitter. He was also, according to one of the top five ATGs Ezzard Charles, much harder to hit clean than it appeared.

Id have him taking a bit of punishment for 5 rounds or so before his stamina started to take over. Then Listons bullys heart would start to flutter and he'd be bludgeoned to the canvas a couple of times before wearily taking the count, between rnds 10-13. No chance Sonny hears the final bell.

If Rocky makes it into the 2nd half of a 15 round fight the advantage could definitely turn in his favor, I'm just not sure he'd be able to get there against Liston.

It’s a polarising fight. I just see nothing in liston that Rocky couldn’t handle...and I see plenty to make Sonny quit in Rocky.

[Kalan]

[

I was making that point about Patterson in response to the tone of this thread which saw everyone outside of one person, not simply picking Liston, but assuming that he would pretty much obliterate Marciano. It was a context thing.

Of course, you can pick apart Marciano's ledger, but that has been done to death. In fact, I would argue that Marciano's ledger has been attacked by those who would seek to undermine his accomplishments so often and so vociferously that his resume is now probably underrated.

So, let's just stay with the point. Liston's best wins are the Patterson wins. What is his next best win? Zora Folley? Eddie Machen? Cleveland WIlliams? Fine fighters of course, but is it some leap over Marciano? I think not. In fact, I am more impressed with beating Walcott and Charles twice along with Archie Moore. And of course, was Marciano out boxed and beaten by Marty Marshall? No. Was Marciano knocked out by 199 pound Leotis Martin? No. So, let's not pretend that there isn't evidence in Sonny's career that would lead you to believe Marciano could and would be successful.

Sorry, didn't mean to go all Kalan on you by telling you what you already know, but Liston was beaten and he was KO'd and his wins just don't blow me away. Thus, my attempt to deduce what exactly about Liston's track record that had people so impressed.

Pretending that Marciano was in over his head is based on what exactly? The reach advantage? As if Marciano didn't regularly give away reach and in fact use that disparity to his advantage. In the end, I don't see anything in Liston's actual performance that leads me to believe that this is some one sided beat down

Well it's not the 2 boxer's records that makes this so obvious.... Frazier won 10 straight Heavyweight Championship fights... He beat Muhammad Ali... He dominated Quarry, Ellis, Foster, Chuvalo, and by and large beat better and more experienced fighters than Foreman ever met... Frazier was installed as a big favorite to beat the challenger...

But all those stats didn't change the fact that Frazier was a pressure fighter who went straight at you.... Or that he was a much smaller man than Foreman.... That he stood 5'11" with a reach of 73"..... Part of the reason Frazier was undefeated was he was able to absorb the punching power of everyone he faced.... But other than Liston, Foreman was probably the hardest punching Heavyweight of the previous 30 to 40 years....and for that particular fight George was in the best shape of his life at a strapping 217 pounds of dynamite and ripped to the gills.... Foreman was ready and extremely confident.... Why wouldn't he be??? .... Frazier looked scared out of his mind at the weigh-in.

So it's not the records... It's the style dynamics of Liston-Marciano that are similar to Liston-Patterson...

Liston was a murderous puncher with a brutal jab and Marciano was wide open.... Pardon me for comparing Marciano with George Chuvalo because Rocky was a better fighter - but Chuvalo was much bigger and would have been as tough a fight for Rocky as he was for Patterson.... Chuvalo was no trouble for Frazier who was a legitimate 203-pounds... Patterson had the hand speed to outbox Chuvalo... Frazier had hand speed, but also the power and resistance to savage Chuvalo and get an ATG LHW like Bob Foster (188) knocked cold in 2 rounds... Frazier had size and speed on Rocky.

Foreman looked inept against Ali and Young, but he wasn't slow...he lacked skills... He was pretty damned quick at 217... If Foreman were in perfect condition for every fight things might have been different even though he lacked boxing finesse in his 20's... But he had NO trouble with Frazier or Norton - or anybody who walked into his wheelhouse..

And that's what Marciano would be doing with Liston... Getting murdered with jabs from the outside with Liston's incredibly long reach... And getting smashed with hooks and uppercuts when he tried to close the gap.

[jas80s]

Code: Select all

[

I was making that point about Patterson in response to the tone of this thread which saw everyone outside of one person, not simply picking Liston, but assuming that he would pretty much obliterate Marciano. It was a context thing.

Of course, you can pick apart Marciano's ledger, but that has been done to death. In fact, I would argue that Marciano's ledger has been attacked by those who would seek to undermine his accomplishments so often and so vociferously that his resume is now probably underrated.

So, let's just stay with the point. Liston's best wins are the Patterson wins. What is his next best win? Zora Folley? Eddie Machen? Cleveland WIlliams? Fine fighters of course, but is it some leap over Marciano? I think not. In fact, I am more impressed with beating Walcott and Charles twice along with Archie Moore. And of course, was Marciano out boxed and beaten by Marty Marshall? No. Was Marciano knocked out by 199 pound Leotis Martin? No. So, let's not pretend that there isn't evidence in Sonny's career that would lead you to believe Marciano could and would be successful.

Sorry, didn't mean to go all Kalan on you by telling you what you already know, but Liston was beaten and he was KO'd and his wins just don't blow me away. Thus, my attempt to deduce what exactly about Liston's track record that had people so impressed.

Pretending that Marciano was in over his head is based on what exactly? The reach advantage? As if Marciano didn't regularly give away reach and in fact use that disparity to his advantage. In the end, I don't see anything in Liston's actual performance that leads me to believe that this is some one sided beat down

Well it's not the 2 boxer's records that makes this so obvious.... Frazier won 10 straight Heavyweight Championship fights... He beat Muhammad Ali... He dominated Quarry, Ellis, Foster, Chuvalo, and by and large beat better and more experienced fighters than Foreman ever met... Frazier was installed as a big favorite to beat the challenger...

But all those stats didn't change the fact that Frazier was a pressure fighter who went straight at you.... Or that he was a much smaller man than Foreman.... That he stood 5'11" with a reach of 73"..... Part of the reason Frazier was undefeated was he was able to absorb the punching power of everyone he faced.... But other than Liston, Foreman was probably the hardest punching Heavyweight of the previous 30 to 40 years....and for that particular fight George was in the best shape of his life at a strapping 217 pounds of dynamite and ripped to the gills.... Foreman was ready and extremely confident.... Why wouldn't he be??? .... Frazier looked scared out of his mind at the weigh-in.

So it's not the records... It's the style dynamics of Liston-Marciano that are similar to Liston-Patterson...

Liston was a murderous puncher with a brutal jab and Marciano was wide open.... Pardon me for comparing Marciano with George Chuvalo because Rocky was a better fighter - but Chuvalo was much bigger and would have been as tough a fight for Rocky as he was for Patterson.... Chuvalo was no trouble for Frazier who was a legitimate 203-pounds... Patterson had the hand speed to outbox Chuvalo... Frazier had hand speed, but also the power and resistance to savage Chuvalo and get an ATG LHW like Bob Foster (188) knocked cold in 2 rounds... Frazier had size and speed on Rocky.

Foreman looked inept against Ali and Young, but he wasn't slow...he lacked skills... He was pretty damned quick at 217... If Foreman were in perfect condition for every fight things might have been different even though he lacked boxing finesse in his 20's... But he had NO trouble with Frazier or Norton - or anybody who walked into his wheelhouse..

And that's what Marciano would be doing with Liston... Getting murdered with jabs from the outside with Liston's incredibly long reach... And getting smashed with hooks and uppercuts when he tried to close the gap.

I understand what you are getting at here and believe me, I am on board with the notion that styles make fights.

I just think you are underestimating how good of a fighter Marciano actually was. I don't believe that he was "wide open" and most if not all of his opponents would agree. He was the epitome of a deceptively good fighter.

But hey, I am not saying he's God either. He could be beaten and maybe Liston would do it. I just find myself giving him more of a shot than most because I think he was a better fighter than he is given credit for by most boxing fans.

[jas80s]

Oh the irony!!! Care to list the ages, and career stats of Marciano's 5 world title fight opponents, before talking about mileages gained.

There is even one Rocky fan who somehow works out Moore was still " in his prime " 3 months short of his 39th birthday, and having been beaten 19 times thus far. Truth of the matter is when Ancient Archie challenged a Heavyweight champion, or a fighter who went on to become one he got stopped easily. ( I don't count Nevada's recognition of the Valdes fight. )

I was making that point about Patterson in response to the tone of this thread which saw everyone outside of one person, not simply picking Liston, but assuming that he would pretty much obliterate Marciano. It was a context thing.

Of course, you can pick apart Marciano's ledger, but that has been done to death. In fact, I would argue that Marciano's ledger has been attacked by those who would seek to undermine his accomplishments so often and so vociferously that his resume is now probably underrated.

So, let's just stay with the point. Liston's best wins are the Patterson wins. What is his next best win? Zora Folley? Eddie Machen? Cleveland WIlliams? Fine fighters of course, but is it some leap over Marciano? I think not. In fact, I am more impressed with beating Walcott and Charles twice along with Archie Moore. And of course, was Marciano out boxed and beaten by Marty Marshall? No. Was Marciano knocked out by 199 pound Leotis Martin? No. So, let's not pretend that there isn't evidence in Sonny's career that would lead you to believe Marciano could and would be successful.

Sorry, didn't mean to go all Kalan on you by telling you what you already know, but Liston was beaten and he was KO'd and his wins just don't blow me away. Thus, my attempt to deduce what exactly about Liston's track record that had people so impressed.

Pretending that Marciano was in over his head is based on what exactly? The reach advantage? As if Marciano didn't regularly give away reach and in fact use that disparity to his advantage. In the end, I don't see anything in Liston's actual performance that leads me to believe that this is some one sided beat down.

Lets get a bit of perspective here.

In Marciano's 8th fight he faced a plum in Bill Hardeman with a 1 - 4 - 0 record. Liston lost on a SD in an 8 round fight to Marshall who had already beaten 19 guys, though admittedly had lost 6 himself.

Liston then went 8 and a half years unbeaten, in fact the length of Marciano's whole career.

To claim Liston losing to Martin was a measure of how good he was is beyond desperate. The guy could well have been in his 40's by then but even he didn't know how old he was, folks just guessed he was born in 1932.

And as for the assumption Liston was a gutless bully, the guy suffered a broken jaw in the Marshall fight, and still finished the fight.

If anyone's record doesn't stand up to close scrutiny it is definitely Marciano's who feasted on old men, has beens, and Light Heavies.

Much like people can claim that Danny Green's KO of Jones Jr was a great achievement because Jones carried on for another 8 years. Everyone knows Jones was well past his sell by date by the time Green KO'd him.

So the bottom line is Marciano has less than NOTHING to offer Liston other than guts. He certainly never fought anyone with either the power or skill of Sonny, INCLUDING what was left of Joe Louis. Again much like Jones, post Marciano the GREAT Ezzard Charles went 10 - 13, a shadow of his former self since 1953.

Please allow me to clarify my "perspective". I never suggested that Liston losing to Martin was the measure of how good of a fighter he is. His career is more than one fight so it would be asinine to relegate him to one night. I am merely suggesting that if a 200 pound heavy could score a clean, hard KO on Liston that I like the chances of Marciano being able to hurt and finish him since Marciano is widely thought of as one of the hardest punchers in the history of the division. The point was simply that and nothing more. Liston was stopped a few times and Marciano was a huge puncher.

As for the rest, I think I understand your perspective. Marciano feasted on has beens and nobodies and he offered little other than guts. So, clearly you don't regard him as much of a fighter which makes your assessment of this fight totally understandable. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect it. I don't agree and I don't figure we're going to turn each other around, so I will just say, well argued.

[Kalan]

So What Jas80s?

Frazier was an even better puncher than Marciano and Foreman was stopped by light hitter Ali and nearly stopped by feather hitter Young... But they boxed him out... They had excellent footwork, timing, and accuracy... They pinked George with jabs and timed him with perfect right crosses... 'So why is it that Frazier couldn't make Foreman blink but ripped Ali with left hooks and knocked him flat on his back??? it's styles buddy .... Styles make fights.

Frazier beat opponents down in battles of attrition like Marciano... He beat better opponents and would be a huge favorite to beat Marciano... In the 60's Ring Magazine put out a splashy cover article: "Frazier's better than Rocky." When Frazier fought ATG Light Heavyweight Bob Foster (188 to Frazier's 209) he crushed him flat so easily it was ridiculous.. Rocky was hardly bigger than ATG Light Heavyweights and had to hit them a zillion times to get them out.

So did it ever occur you you that Frazier could bob and weave and absorb Ali's punches (Ali was 6'3" X 215 pounds for their FOTC), walk through them and load and throw as he pleased??? How is Ali going to box comfortably from the outside, nailing a prime aged (27) Frazier with masterful jabs and straight rights when Smokin' is dead in his nose hole??? Impossible dude... But with Foreman Joe was facing a much physically stronger specimen, who was only 2 pounds heavier than Ali but hard as a rock... His wrists, hands, arms, shoulders and back were those of a more powerful man....almost Liston-like... A tempered steel 217 and twice as strong as Ali... A puncher who could set and deal with frightening power against any unfortunate short-stuff who was fool enough to invade his wheelhouse... Frazier-Foreman was the 2nd biggest mismatch in History where a respected World Champion was the mismatched party.

You say you're on board with styles but it doesn't sound like you are...

Liston crushed any puncher like Patterson who tried to get inside his 81" reach... Now Patterson could also jab and move like he did with Chuvalo and Bonavena... But Liston jabbed him in the chest and nearly poleaxed him... Liston had a better jab than Foreman, and would have beaten him at his '50's best... Patterson lacked the range to work Liston from the outside... When Floyd tried to move in he was met with thunderous uppercuts and hooks and was knocked bowlegged... It was the worst mismatch in History where a respected World Champion was the mismatched party.