Muhammad Ali: Best win?

[Controversial]

Foreman was actually a little concerned before the Ali fight.

He had a really bad camp,

Ali was renown for having bad camps, he was dropped many times when sparring.

[Kalan]

Foreman didn't get punched out... He stumbled around in a circle and laid down... As Clayton tolled the count, Foreman held his head way off the canvas as his chest heaved... It's something you do to say "I'm not out folks... I'm fatigued."

Foreman suffered little in the way of facial damage vs Ali -compared to his fight with Alex Stewart, for example, where his head was swollen up like a mellen from taking big bombs... But with Stewart he always had a chance to win... With Ali he was exhausted... It occurred to him that taking any more punishment was pointless and hopeless.

It's the same concept if you trained for a 1500 meter race and find out you're in a marathon... You collapse around mile 6 with the leaders running so far ahead of you that they're striding out of sight... You can no longer win anyway... Do you want a heart attack? .... It's best to lay there and recover your wind and strength before trudging off in defeat.

I maintain that Foreman was smarter at life than Ali... Ali was a highly principled man for his stand against Viet Nam etc... but in the Holmes fight he should have said "this isn't working guys" around round 6... He would have been better off... Look at Rigondeaux and Walters... They knew they couldn't win the Loma fights halfway through - so what's the point?

Liston quit after 6 rounds cuz he had a torn left biceps... The scorecards were dead even - so it wasn't Ali's best showing.

[ldlamb]

Best win- Foreman

[APerno]

Foreman got a quick count. The loose ropes, the poisoning, and all the rest of Foreman's excuses are BS, but he got a quick count. He was counted out as much as Buster Douglas was (not) counted out against Tyson. Same count dynamics occurred with one ref letting the fight go on while the other (shouldn't have) stopped it.

[Kalan]

Douglas watched the count the whole way.... He could have gotten up any time.... According to the rules the referee counts you out - not the timekeeper.... That's been true going back to Dempsey-Tunney 2 and why Sonny Liston was royally fukked in the Ali rematch -- when Ali refused the referee's orders to go to a neutral corner and Liston got NO count.

[gilgamesh]

Probably Foreman.

People expected Foreman to slaughter him the way he had Frazier and Norton

[Kalan]

Some people did.

[gilgamesh]

Some people did.

Quite a few. I remember reading a 30th anniversary of the Rumble in the Jungle issue of The Ring Magazine, and they had a lot of the opinions from Journalists and Analysts.

As I recall only one or two was picking Ali out of like 20.

[Kalan]

People go with the favorite because it's usually the safe bet.... Most don't peal back the onion.... There were a lot of reasons Foreman looked shaky for that fight... Not the least of which that he had no sparring partners who could box real well... One of the things people fail to do in big fights is look at the styles and the preparation of both camps.

You could say the same thing about Foreman-Frazier.... On the shallow surface the favorite looked good.

[Kalan]

The boxing commission had 7 different doctors examine Liston looking for one who would say Liston could have continued... They all said he had a severely torn left biceps and was justified in not coming out for the next round.

The Heavyweight Championship is worth millions... You don't let it go easily...but you don't wreck your body if you're hopelessly injured... At the same time there's a rematch clause so he knew he had another crack at Clay anyway.

What he didn't know was that the rematch would end in a fiasco .... when Ali refused to go to a neutral corner and Liston never got a count from the dumb assed referee... Ali could have been DQ'd for directly refusing the referee's orders... The count should have been suspended as well according to the rules... If you refuse to go to a neutral corner or come out of the corner early the count is supposed to be suspended... The last thing is, the referee counts you out - not the timekeeper... Liston got no count from Walcott because he was too busy trying to direct Ali to a neutral corner.

If Liston wanted to throw the rematch he would NOT have gotten up and resumed fighting... Liston's license to fight was revoked in all 50 states because the commission ruled he faked the knockdown... I'd love to know why anybody would fake a knockdown and then get up and resume fighting - at a time when Ali, Liston, and Walcott ALL thought the fight was still on.. The commission's ruling made no sense at all.

[Kalan]

Source? Dates, names of doctors, and times of these " examinations " would be helpful.

NO ONE here needs you or anyone else to tell us about the Lewiston, Maine 1965 Ali / Liston debacle, thanks very much.

I am still waiting to hear how you come to the conclusion Foreman DIDN'T punch himself out v Ali, and I still want to hear how you can refer to the Ali / Holmes fight as anything other than a sick joke with parasites leeching off Ali's " name "

The commissioners simply said they suspected Liston threw the fight so they had 7 different doctors examine him to verify his injury... They didn't produce names and dates... That was reported in boxing magazines like Boxing Illustrated.

Everybody needs to hear about Ali-Liston 2 ... Tons of misinformation is out there accusing Liston of throwing the fight.

I didn't say Foreman didn't punch himself out... But when he got overly tired and took a good punch, he simply laid down and took the count - rather than take an inevitable and hopeless beating like Ali did for several rounds against Holmes... Nobody lies there with his head way off the canvas taking the count if he's out... He was tired.

Makes no sense to endure that if you know it's coming... Holmes was staring hard at Ali's corner .... like "You stopping it?"

Those guys were idiots ... including Dundee... They were making everybody throw up, including Holmes.

[Kalan]

So FINALLY you agree the big stupid dummy Foreman DID actually punch himself out against Ali. Hoofukkinray.

Here is the difference. Foreman the plum just kept lashing wild punches at Ali round after round, because he was too stupid to try anything else.

In the Holmes fight Ali was so sick he couldn't do anything to stop Holmes throwing punches at him. The only thing we appear to agree on is the parasites ( and yes, that does include Dundee ) just trying to milk as many dollars out of the guy as they could get, without any concerns for his health. Holmes was the only one to come out of the debacle with any credit, for at least asking the corner and the ref to stop it.

Lastly I don't believe everything I read in magazines, especially when they don't list the details, perhaps you do

No I don't agree that Foreman was a big stupid dummy.... I don't think he was very smart for putting on so much weight before camp that it was a problem to get it off.... I thought he was matched poorly before the fight because he hadn't fought anyone who could go 2 full rounds for the previous 3 years... There was on reason to match him with Joe Roman who gave him no work at all...

Foreman's strategic thinking, boxing skills, and instincts can only be as good as a combination of the best boxers he's faced.... Or alternatively, as good as a master trainer and coach like Jack Blackburn could make them.... Or thirdly, he could be one of the smartest and most innovative people on the planet and develop totally new tactics and techniques on his own and hone them to perfection..... The last 2 of those situations are unlikely to happen - so he had to rely on experience and matching up with a few more boxers before he'd be very good at beating that style... Smashing people into the canvas with crushing power is about all he knew how to do.

But I thought he was a lot smarter than Ali for not taking unnecessary punishment in a fight he couldn't possibly win... Maybe your corner is hoping for a miracle when they should be stopping it... Possibly the referee is an idiot... So if you don't want to be damaged goods you might need to stop it yourself, sad as that is.

I also believe commissioners who were trying to fine and suspend Liston when they say they had 7 different doctors verify his injury... It's not impossible they lied, but what would their motive be?

[Controversial]

In the Holmes fight Ali was so sick he couldn't do anything to stop Holmes throwing punches at him. The only thing we appear to agree on is the parasites ( and yes, that does include Dundee ) just trying to milk as many dollars out of the guy as they could get, without any concerns for his health. Holmes was the only one to come out of the debacle with any credit, for at least asking the corner and the ref to stop it.

I can't believe his team actually gave Ali any chance in the Holmes fight, as you say they were milking him as much as they could. Disgraceful, they should have told him to retire or refused to work with him anymore, and to think even after that he fought again 14 months later !!!

[Kalan]

But I thought he was a lot smarter than Ali for not taking unnecessary punishment in a fight he couldn't possibly win... Maybe your corner is hoping for a miracle when they should be stopping it... Possibly the referee is an idiot... So if you don't want to be damaged goods you might need to stop it yourself, sad as that is.

So what are you saying now? Foreman threw the fight? My take is the big dummy had less than no defence, and the accumulation of Ali's counters and punching himself out ( which the commentator constantly reminds us was tactic of Ali ) KO'd the fool. He wasn't " simply tired " he was KTFO, even when he did get back up and go to his corner he had the rubber legs on. Tired my ass, he was taking a beating. Ali caught him with 3 short sharp right counters in the corner just before the combination along the ropes that created the KO, and each snapped his head back as if on elastic. You trying to give the big fool credit as as stupid as he was at the time. Here is a clue.

The fight has gone down in history as the ROPE A DOPE fight. Guess who played the part of the DOPE?

I also believe commissioners who were trying to fine and suspend Liston when they say they had 7 different doctors verify his injury... It's not impossible they lied, but what would their motive be?

Why would anyone care about the motives of inherently corrupt quango's?

Boy you really screwed that one up royally and quote me saying things I never said.... If Foreman isn't a big dummy you're certainly as thick as a brick..... So who's dumber??? The guy who laid on the ropes taking tons of head shots, and whose personal finances went to shitt??? Or the guy who fought over 80 professional fights without getting damaged, and retired rich with over a dozen business deals netting him hundreds of millions??? ..... Foreman nailed it pretty well.

[Controversial]

Apparently your " security forces " advised your idiot president of the likely consequences of free cocaine swamping your cities, so one little guy from Columbia had the so called most powerful country on earth dancing to his tune.

Now THAT is clever, or a lot cleverer than some fukking glofified toaster.

Hahaha, that made me chuckle

[DrDuke]

Which was his best and/or defining win?

He had some. But the victory in Manila was special, cause there was real bad blood and Ali was on the verge of quitting, yet he had won.

What was his best KO win?

Foreman.

Who was his best opponent?

Frazier, cause he has probably taken the biggest part from Ali in the ring.

[Kalan]

Which was his best and/or defining win?

He had some. But the victory in Manila was special, cause there was real bad blood and Ali was on the verge of quitting, yet he had won

Frazier was 100% gone and woefully fat in that fight.... Ali was a little chubby but he was a much bigger, taller and stronger man.... Frazier was extremely fat and damned near blind in 1 eye... Joe was on his last legs with no punching power left and Ali knew Joe was real fat and had no conditioning or endurance whatsoever... He allowed Frazier to punch away at his shoulders, arms, and gloves pretending the few that got through had some impact... They didn't... Ali planned for the physically depleted and medically unfit Frazier to exhaust himself.

Frazier was completely punched out by 14th and so tired he could barely stand.... If that were Foreman punching him, Smokin' would have met his maker right there.... Instead Ali punched the totally exhausted and ill conditioned Frazier around the ring non-stop in the 14th round....like hammering an overstuffed punching bag and driving him from pillar to post.. Everybody knew at the end of that round that Eddie Futch was going to stop it... Any histrionics that Ali put on after that about being ready to quit were to save face after savagely battering and stopping such a hapless individual.

[DrDuke]

Frazier was 100% gone and woefully fat in that fight.... Ali was a little chubby but he was a much bigger, taller and stronger man.... Frazier was extremely fat and damned near blind in 1 eye...

Frazier wasn't gone yet. He was out of shape and overweighted in the 2nd fight vs Foreman, but not before. And he had problems with the eye from the early days of his pro-career. The main problem in Manila was his good second eye, which was swelling and closing.

Ali knew Joe was real fat and had no conditioning or endurance whatsoever... He allowed Frazier to punch away at his shoulders, arms, and gloves pretending the few that got through had some impact... They didn't... Ali planned for the physically depleted and medically unfit Frazier to exhaust himself.

Ali knew that all and was wrong, as the fight shown. He underrated Joe and paid for that.

Frazier was completely punched out by 14th and so tired he could barely stand.... If that were Foreman punching him, Smokin' would have met his maker right there.... Instead Ali punched the totally exhausted and ill conditioned Frazier around the ring non-stop in the 14th round....like hammering an overstuffed punching bag and driving him from pillar to post.. Everybody knew at the end of that round that Eddie Futch was going to stop it... Any histrionics that Ali put on after that about being ready to quit were to save face after savagely battering and stopping such a hapless individual.

Yes, Frazier was washed up by the end of the fight, so as Ali, who wasn't able to stand on his feet after the stoppage. People, who were there, say everything and sorry, but I gonna believe their words instead of your opinion about their words.

[Kalan]

I watched the fight... Maybe you didn't... I saw exactly what happened and nobody can snow me about it.

Ali was known to lie, exaggerate, make excuses, dramatize, and just generally blow smoke up people's asses... He picked some of this trait up from his dad and some from Angelo Dundee - the inventor of the fable of the torn glove by which he gave Ali precious minutes to recover from the Cooper knockdown as he demanded a glove change.

Ali was in control and battered Frazier in the 14th... Frazier was gone and wasn't a threat to do crap ... so Futch stopped it... You're only ready to give up your World Title if somebody is the least bit of a threat to you... Ali was acting.

[Ambling Alp II]

Frazier was 100% gone and woefully fat in that fight.... Ali was a little chubby but he was a much bigger, taller and stronger man.... Frazier was extremely fat and damned near blind in 1 eye...

Frazier wasn't gone yet. He was out of shape and overweighted in the 2nd fight vs Foreman, but not before. And he had problems with the eye from the early days of his pro-career. The main problem in Manila was his good second eye, which was swelling and closing.

Ali knew Joe was real fat and had no conditioning or endurance whatsoever... He allowed Frazier to punch away at his shoulders, arms, and gloves pretending the few that got through had some impact... They didn't... Ali planned for the physically depleted and medically unfit Frazier to exhaust himself.

Ali knew that all and was wrong, as the fight shown. He underrated Joe and paid for that.

Frazier was completely punched out by 14th and so tired he could barely stand.... If that were Foreman punching him, Smokin' would have met his maker right there.... Instead Ali punched the totally exhausted and ill conditioned Frazier around the ring non-stop in the 14th round....like hammering an overstuffed punching bag and driving him from pillar to post.. Everybody knew at the end of that round that Eddie Futch was going to stop it... Any histrionics that Ali put on after that about being ready to quit were to save face after savagely battering and stopping such a hapless individual.

Yes, Frazier was washed up by the end of the fight, so as Ali, who wasn't able to stand on his feet after the stoppage. People, who were there, say everything and sorry, but I gonna believe their words instead of your opinion about their words.

Dr Duke:
I agree with much of what you said. Frazier certainly had a lot left and fought a great fight. He would have beaten almost anyone else with that performance.
The only part where I beg to differ is the part about Ali "wasn't able able to stand on his feet after the stoppage". He would have continued if he had to. It is sort of like someone who collapses after running a marathon in hot weather. If they had to, they probably could have run another mile.

[Kalan]

This was not a marathon where there's no respite.... In a marathon you best not stop running if you want to win - because there's often more than 1000 competitors and several are often right on your heels ..... If you like to look back on your right side, somebody might slip into your blind spot just behind you on your left side and blow by you... In Boxing you get a minute's rest after each round to refresh and recover your wind.... Ali was in total control of the fight....

With a minute's rest and a drinky he's good .... because there's nothing in front of Ali but a shellacked opponent.

People where saying "Ali's going to stop Joe" during the 14th .... and "Futch will stop it ... Frazier is gone" after the 14th.

[APerno]

I go with Alp's assessment, it best explains Ali's actions at the end of the fight. Ali was truly exhausted but probably could/would have finished the fight; but like a marathon runner when it was over he was done. As far as Ali's later remarks, his claim of 'near death' and all that stuff about almost quitting are probably the nicest things he has ever said about Joe Frazier don't besmirch it; Ali at times could be gracious.

[SenorPipino]

With the fight over, Ali collapsed because of a loss of adrenaline.

Mentally and physically he capitulated when Futch signaled it was over.

That's not unusual.

If there was a 15th round, there's no doubt that Ali would have got up from his stool and continued where he left off in the prior 2 rounds.

The great fighters suck it up.

[jbizzle20]

Too many candidates for this title but I'll go with Shavers. Ali was losing a step by this time and got in the ring with a really dangerous opponent yet Ali boxed well and survived a grueling fight. With all of Ali's mileage from years of epic wars he really could've lost this fight going against a guy as powerful and determined as Shavers. He spent whatever was left in the tank for this as he was never the same fighter again. It doesn't get quite the attention of the Frazier trilogy or Foreman but I think this was his greatest demonstration of courage.

[Kalan]

I go with Alp's assessment, it best explains Ali's actions at the end of the fight. Ali was truly exhausted but probably could/would have finished the fight; but like a marathon runner when it was over he was done. As far as Ali's later remarks, his claim of 'near death' and all that stuff about almost quitting are probably the nicest things he has ever said about Joe Frazier don't besmirch it; Ali at times could be gracious

Ali could be very gracious. That's exactly what he was being.... I'm not besmirching anything if I don't buy the idea that Ali wasn't ready to quit and was in total control of that fight... Frazier was fat and in terrible physical condition, and his career was basically over .... He was pulling those final big checks in and Ali felt a little sorry for Joe the way he went out... After all, Frazier was a younger man than Ali ... and he fought a lot fewer fights... He absorbed a lot of incoming, walking straight in and loading an throwing left hooks... He was wide open for right handers, but only fought one great right hand puncher.

As far as his top opponents were concerned, Ali was a more gracious man than Smokin' Joe.... From my point of view Frazier always had a bit of bad boy thuggery in him that he tried to hide... but it came out in some curious statements.