Marciano v Liston

[jas80s]

So What Jas80s?

Frazier was an even better puncher than Marciano and Foreman was stopped by light hitter Ali and nearly stopped by feather hitter Young... But they boxed him out... They had excellent footwork, timing, and accuracy... They pinked George with jabs and timed him with perfect right crosses... 'So why is it that Frazier couldn't make Foreman blink but ripped Ali with left hooks and knocked him flat on his back??? it's styles buddy .... Styles make fights.

Frazier beat opponents down in battles of attrition like Marciano... He beat better opponents and would be a huge favorite to beat Marciano... In the 60's Ring Magazine put out a splashy cover article: "Frazier's better than Rocky." When Frazier fought ATG Light Heavyweight Bob Foster (188 to Frazier's 209) he crushed him flat so easily it was ridiculous.. Rocky was hardly bigger than ATG Light Heavyweights and had to hit them a zillion times to get them out.

So did it ever occur you you that Frazier could bob and weave and absorb Ali's punches (Ali was 6'3" X 215 pounds for their FOTC), walk through them and load and throw as he pleased??? How is Ali going to box comfortably from the outside, nailing a prime aged (27) Frazier with masterful jabs and straight rights when Smokin' is dead in his nose hole??? Impossible dude... But with Foreman Joe was facing a much physically stronger specimen, who was only 2 pounds heavier than Ali but hard as a rock... His wrists, hands, arms, shoulders and back were those of a more powerful man....almost Liston-like... A tempered steel 217 and twice as strong as Ali... A puncher who could set and deal with frightening power against any unfortunate short-stuff who was fool enough to invade his wheelhouse... Frazier-Foreman was the 2nd biggest mismatch in History where a respected World Champion was the mismatched party.

You say you're on board with styles but it doesn't sound like you are...

Liston crushed any puncher like Patterson who tried to get inside his 81" reach... Now Patterson could also jab and move like he did with Chuvalo and Bonavena... But Liston jabbed him in the chest and nearly poleaxed him... Liston had a better jab than Foreman, and would have beaten him at his '50's best... Patterson lacked the range to work Liston from the outside... When Floyd tried to move in he was met with thunderous uppercuts and hooks and was knocked bowlegged... It was the worst mismatch in History where a respected World Champion was the mismatched party.

OK, your opinion is that the styles favor Liston. I don't see it that way. Do you really think you are going to turn me around with your opinion of how a fight that never took place would go?

I can think of two guys who gave away reach and got inside on Liston and stopped him, so the notion that it never happened is false. And Frazier-Foreman has nothing to do with this does it? Liston is not the same as Foreman and Frazier is not the same as Marciano. Moreover, Patterson is not the same as Marciano at all, so comparing what happened to Patterson is of next to no value. They are all quite different fighters. I am surprised that somebody who has been called a "master" would be oblivious to something so obvious.

Fighters were able to land on Liston plenty and fighters with less of a punch were able to "deck" him. Moreover, Marciano consistently bated fighters with longer reaches into his fight and almost always ended up knocking them out.

I think the style match up is fine. So, you see, I am telling you that the style match up favored Marciano. I am giving you my opinion and nothing else....did it convince you?

[jas80s]

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As for the rest, I think I understand your perspective. Marciano feasted on has beens and nobodies and he offered little other than guts. So, clearly you don't regard him as much of a fighter which makes your assessment of this fight totally understandable. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect it. I don't agree and I don't figure we're going to turn each other around, so I will just say, well argued.

With all due respect here I think you are missing the point somehow jas80s.

Liston was KO'd once legitimately, and as stated that was when he could have been anything from 43 - 50, because no one knew his age. Liston wasn't the sharpest pencil in the box, and it is possible if he had have been IQ tested he might recorded one of the lowest scores ever.

He was humiliated by Clay in the first fight, and whether we believe in the shoulder injury of not, one thing is certain he was totally confused by Clay's speed, movement, and evasiveness, and IMO was looking for a way out.

Similarly in the Ali fight, he went down from a quick punch, but was too thick to listen to who was doing the counting, and got up too late. Admittedly Walcott's ineptness didn't help matters, but there you go.

However the the point is Marciano was NEVER going to blind a prime Liston with speed, movement, or science, so the educated consensus is Sonny bludgeons him, before he gets bludgeoned himself. The assets Liston possessed to do the bludgeoning have been well and truly documented, but the 17" in wingspan, and 20+lbs in weight advantages coupled with the piston like jab, and powerful hooks and uppercuts are worth remembering.

Just because Ali beat him in a certain way doesn't mean that that is the ONLY way that he could be beaten. It gets back to the same point, you don't see that Marciano has the ability to win. Fair enough, I disagree because I think he was better than you are giving him credit for.

Marciano was constantly underestimated by bigger men who found out quickly that he was not so easy to hit and was consistently able to get into range and land very heavy punches. And you can mitigate that by slamming his record, but that is simply conjecture and opinion.

I understand your general take, Liston had reasons why he lost and reasons I suppose why he didn't beat stronger opponents. And conversely, Marciano had reasons why he won, namely that his opponents were old, small, or not very good. But those simply underscore your basic premise, Liston was great and Marciano was not good. But, in the end, that is simply your opinion, and I have heard you, thanks. I just wanted to share mine.

[Kalan]

So What Jas80s?

Frazier was an even better puncher than Marciano and Foreman was stopped by light hitter Ali and nearly stopped by feather hitter Young... But they boxed him out... They had excellent footwork, timing, and accuracy... They pinked George with jabs and timed him with perfect right crosses... 'So why is it that Frazier couldn't make Foreman blink but ripped Ali with left hooks and knocked him flat on his back??? it's styles buddy .... Styles make fights.

Frazier beat opponents down in battles of attrition like Marciano... He beat better opponents and would be a huge favorite to beat Marciano... In the 60's Ring Magazine put out a splashy cover article: "Frazier's better than Rocky." When Frazier fought ATG Light Heavyweight Bob Foster (188 to Frazier's 209) he crushed him flat so easily it was ridiculous.. Rocky was hardly bigger than ATG Light Heavyweights and had to hit them a zillion times to get them out.

So did it ever occur you you that Frazier could bob and weave and absorb Ali's punches (Ali was 6'3" X 215 pounds for their FOTC), walk through them and load and throw as he pleased??? How is Ali going to box comfortably from the outside, nailing a prime aged (27) Frazier with masterful jabs and straight rights when Smokin' is dead in his nose hole??? Impossible dude... But with Foreman Joe was facing a much physically stronger specimen, who was only 2 pounds heavier than Ali but hard as a rock... His wrists, hands, arms, shoulders and back were those of a more powerful man....almost Liston-like... A tempered steel 217 and twice as strong as Ali... A puncher who could set and deal with frightening power against any unfortunate short-stuff who was fool enough to invade his wheelhouse... Frazier-Foreman was the 2nd biggest mismatch in History where a respected World Champion was the mismatched party.

You say you're on board with styles but it doesn't sound like you are...

Liston crushed any puncher like Patterson who tried to get inside his 81" reach... Now Patterson could also jab and move like he did with Chuvalo and Bonavena... But Liston jabbed him in the chest and nearly poleaxed him... Liston had a better jab than Foreman, and would have beaten him at his '50's best... Patterson lacked the range to work Liston from the outside... When Floyd tried to move in he was met with thunderous uppercuts and hooks and was knocked bowlegged... It was the worst mismatch in History where a respected World Champion was the mismatched party.

OK, your opinion is that the styles favor Liston. I don't see it that way. Do you really think you are going to turn me around with your opinion of how a fight that never took place would go?

I can think of two guys who gave away reach and got inside on Liston and stopped him, so the notion that it never happened is false. And Frazier-Foreman has nothing to do with this does it? Liston is not the same as Foreman and Frazier is not the same as Marciano. Moreover, Patterson is not the same as Marciano at all, so comparing what happened to Patterson is of next to no value. They are all quite different fighters. I am surprised that somebody who has been called a "master" would be oblivious to something so obvious.

Fighters were able to land on Liston plenty and fighters with less of a punch were able to "deck" him. Moreover, Marciano consistently bated fighters with longer reaches into his fight and almost always ended up knocking them out.

I think the style match up is fine. So, you see, I am telling you that the style match up favored Marciano. I am giving you my opinion and nothing else....did it convince you?

Liston might have been 50 years old when he fought Leotis Martin.... Liston lost to Marty Marshall when Sonny had 7 fights and Marshall had 25 fights.... It was an unwarranted SD but Liston laughed at Marshall's funny antics and got hit with his mouth wide open - which broke his jaw... a few months later when his jaw healed, Liston dominated the much more experienced Marshall knocked him down 4 times and stopped him... Their 1st fight was a fluke.

So I throw out the Martin and Marshall fights... The first Ali fight was dead even on the cards when Liston was forced out by injury.... He had 3 rounds of Fighting in the previous 3 years anyway so I thought he might be in real trouble because of ring rust... But had Liston not been injured he might have won that fight.

In the Ali rematch Ali should have have been DQ'd for refusing to go to a neutral corner... Anybody else would have been DQ'd because the action was so flagrant... Liston easily could have gone undefeated and Joe Louis called him "The Greatest Heavyweight Champion ever."

Marciano never fought a good prime Heavyweight... The biggest guy he fought in a Title Fight was fat Don Cockell at 205 with 20 pounds of fat on him..... Cockell was previously knocked out by Middleweight Randy Turpin -- and he was also previously knocked out by inept Light Heavyweight Jimmy Slade, who Patterson make a mockery out of.