Hagler vs. Golovkin (GGG)

[BoxBuzz]

I'm old as dirt....as many of you know......Archie Moore is my favorite fighter...because his story is rich with ups and downs.....victories and defeats.....and ASSUMPTIONS about both that lend to some interesting "legacy" type of innuendos (both positive and negative) I don't think he can be defined by his 3 losses to Charles......each of those fights were 50/50 and they all went against him.....which to some means he was far inferior to Charles. I suggest caution on such assumptions.


I also have carefully watched this sport evolve.......in ways that do not get the respect from the more "sentimental" contributors.

I think we need to be careful in both directions regarding assumptions. Here's some concerns....and some counterpoints.

*>>>> We have weight classes for a reason, because a perfectly constructed and in shape human, is likely to dominate a smaller version of himself.

The outliers are: A: Skill set, B: Mental Toughness, E.G. Fight Savvy, psyche impact on your opponent and ring generalship) C: Sheer Luck (a very big deal when projectiles are hurled in your direction at high speed).

Here are my self confessed personal fighter bias'es........

I like Ali's story....so much so I may let it cloud my judgment so some degree, but I strive not to overcompensate for this by allowing someone to run away with overstating his limitations.

I like Moore's story in the same way.

I dislike Carnera's story, and have lost trust in his "wins" because of the tom foolery that DOCUMENTEDLY and CLEARLY impacted his career.....did he transcend this meddling? Did he gain skills through that ambiguity, and actually thrive, endure and EARN his championship? I have my doubts.....fortunately many others provide a good counterpoint to my thoughts.


I've see a lot of fights and fighters....of these Monzon impressed me as a surreal human. A psycho of a nature that made me believe he fought for the pure enjoyment of beating on another, And wasn't as interested at ending a fight as the nature of the game might make one assume. I've suspected he could have had a higher KO rate, had he been more merciful. Steely cold and non-compassionate........sort of a Charles Manson type. I think that gave him an odd advantage and makes his ability greater than the sum of his size, skillset, and ring generalship "parts".

Maybe Valero enters into this equation.....but I did not see the demonstrated skill-set to place him quite in this category, he did not seem to be a truly legendary fighting machine. There have been a lot of psycho's that could not blend their other qualities into legendary pugilistic status. It takes a psychotic spin AND genius to meld into that transcendent state. And it does NOT require a "psycho aspect" to be the best of the best......But it does require genius.

So I don't always take size and skill-set and even educated ring generalship as the final determinant to ring efficacy. There is something about humanity that requires a different sort of "analysis" beyond purely objective. This game is ALWAYS a SUBJECTIVE guessing game. Though the objective will help you play the odds in a very helpful way.

I believe Aaron Pryor had one of the most mystical runs of luck, in the ring, in his management decisions, timing and just "being there" (See the movie) that I have ever witnessed. Which is why I often have balked at singing his praises. I also was a local fan at the time.....and celebrated most if not all of his early wins.

Don't be too sentimental when imagining that Hagler would always beat GGG......I think they are pretty evenly matched myself.

And don't imagine that just the "evolution" of the sport, gives GGG any big advantage...... With these two, it might be a throw of the dice. I actually ever so slightly would favor GGG. But now that GGG has sort of had his "Leonard moment" (An important fight that he feels he won, and was robbed) It will be interesting to see how he integrates this into his matrix. Hagler was deflated.....and wisely chose to step away....or maybe it was just that the focus of his redemption was not willing to re-engage. But he was done.

Not sure how this will affect GGG....if he comes back and wins big.......The Hagler folks may want to reconsider their position.

If a newly re-energized Canelo rides the euphoria of his incredible good fortune at being given a gift, and manages to parlay that into a win over GGG.....the Hagler folks will stiffen their resolve and say "I told you so".

The next chapter may clarify this debate.

[jamamb]

think gggs story is only down from here. on the slide and gonna lose if he fights canelo again.

[SenorPipino]

The Golovkin I've seen in recent fights, going back to Brook, wouldn't survive with Hagler.

Marvin was a true force, a true rock.

If Golovkin was wary of mixing it up with Canelo---a newborn at middleweight---what could he possible do against Hagler.?Throw some jabs and try to outbox him?

That wouldn't work. Ask Hearns.

And there's no chance Golovkin would attempt to fight inside with Hagler. Golovkin only ventures in close when he can outmuscle someone. He avoided that type of fight against Jacobs and Canelo.

Hagler would bust up Golovkin badly if he attempted to get close.

I remember that Canelo almost took Golovkin's head off in the 10th round.

Hagler, born a middleweight, wouldn't have waited that long against the easy to hit Golovkin.

Hagler by convincing stoppage in 6.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

If Golovkin was wary of mixing it up with Canelo---a newborn at middleweight---what could he possible do against Hagler.?Throw some jabs and try to outbox him?

That wouldn't work. Ask Hearns.

Hagler, born a middleweight, wouldn't have waited that long against the easy to hit Golovkin.

--- See all these years haven't been kind to you, so I'll just point out that Marv whom I adore, never fought at lightheavy for a damn good reason, the current size of Canelo with Jacobs being even bigger.

Marv would be a lifetime jr mid if he fought today, and smallish at that. Gennedy busted up Brook real sweet and may have ruined his career. The notion that Marv, as stellar as he was in the day could just walk through middles today don't hold any more water than your yellow stained wetted shorts are able. Put down the bag of glue and grab a clue. It'd be a damned fine fight, but only if Marv was willing to move up a division.

[Kalan]

Hagler never fought anyone like Triple-G... And he gets the shitt knocked out of him because he was wide open... Even Tommy Hearns hit Hagler with full blooded shots... Tommy just couldn't get Middleweight power on Hagler or Barkley.

Golovkin out-jabs everybody... Even the much taller and bigger Daniel Jacobs, who has an excellent jab, but was out-jabbed by a substantial margin by Triple-G.. Golovkin is more efficient and effective with his jab and any of his fellow World Champions.. What makes his jab so excellent are his feet, timing, sense of range, smoothness, and accuracy.

Then you have the spectacle of 2nd rate boxer, 154-pounder Mugabi pounding on a 31-year-old Hagler – and convincing Ray Leonard to zoom out of retirement because he knew he had Hagler’s number – and Leonard whipping sustained combinations into Hagler’s immobile face in the final 30 seconds of many late rounds, assuring his victory.

Then you have short, pudgy, 5’7” and half-trained Duran – who fought as a Lightweight or much lighter for over 60 fights, and who was knocked flat by Hearns in a hopeless fight at 154 – getting right leads and counters on Hagler at 160.

Golovkin was bigger, taller, stronger, tougher, punched harder, jabbed and boxed better, and had quicker feet than Hagler in his prime.. He would knock Hell out of Hagler after badly outboxing him.

[Kalan]

Golovkin is 5' 10.5" .... Plus he has the best jab in the game and is one of the best punchers ever... Unlike Hagler, Golovkin has never lost or been knocked down or even staggered by a punch.

Hagler lost 3 times to opponents he was highly favored to beat... One of those was to a rusted out Welter named Ray, who was coming off of a 3-year-layoff - and abandoned the Middleweight Title soon after winning it from Hagler.

You see, Leonard's claim to retire was a subterfuge… The division was stacked with big, tall, brutally powerful Middleweights who were great boxers and dynamite hitters... Therefore, both Hagler and Leonard headed for retirement at an early age when there were still millions of dollars to be made with their rematch etc.

But Leonard cleverly returned with a fight against unknown Light Heavyweight Donny Lalonde who he induced to boil down to 168.. He ingeniously got the WBC to approve the fight as being for 2 different World Titles in 2 different weight divisions – the lighter of which he wouldn’t have to defend against mandatories and could defend it at 160 against whoever he pleased. Pretty damned slick. You have to admire Leonard's business acumen – something Mayweather picked up on.

[jas80s]

Golovkin is 5' 10.5" .... Plus he has the best jab in the game and is one of the best punchers ever... Unlike Hagler, Golovkin has never lost or been knocked down or even staggered by a punch.

Hagler lost 3 times to opponents he was highly favored to beat... One of those was to a rusted out Welter named Ray, who was coming off of a 3-year-layoff - and abandoned the Middleweight Title soon after winning it from Hagler.

You see, Leonard's claim to retire was a subterfuge… The division was stacked with big, tall, brutally powerful Middleweights who were great boxers and dynamite hitters... Therefore, both Hagler and Leonard headed for retirement at an early age when there were still millions of dollars to be made with their rematch etc.

But Leonard cleverly returned with a fight against unknown Light Heavyweight Donny Lalonde who he induced to boil down to 168.. He ingeniously got the WBC to approve the fight as being for 2 different World Titles in 2 different weight divisions – the lighter of which he wouldn’t have to defend against mandatories and could defend it at 160 against whoever he pleased. Pretty damned slick. You have to admire Leonard's business acumen – something Mayweather picked up on.

Precisely why it's so difficult to compare active fighters to retired ones. Let's see how Golovkin does in the last fight of his career. Or even how he does in the last few years of his career. Then, we can make a more accurate assessment. You are right, he hasn't lost...but, it's not over. Personally, I won't see him that differently even if he does lose a fight or two late in his career, why should I? Fighters get old, it's not always just about stats. Boxing is disturbingly nuanced, it's about who you fought, and when, and a myriad other things....it's annoying sometimes.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Precisely why it's so difficult to compare active fighters to retired ones. Let's see how Golovkin does in the last fight of his career. Or even how he does in the last few years of his career. Then, we can make a more accurate assessment. You are right, he hasn't lost...but, it's not over. Personally, I won't see him that differently even if he does lose a fight or two late in his career, why should I? Fighters get old, it's not always just about stats. Boxing is disturbingly nuanced, it's about who you fought, and when, and a myriad other things....it's annoying sometimes.

- You have a much better take than the usual derelicts using this forum for their personal potty, but boxing can still be broken down to a degree, just never perfectly because of differences of eras.

This era being one of the worst because of wholesale corruption that also reflects the degree of world corruption within the western world. Golovkin is currently 35 years soon to be 36 next year. Marv fought his last fight just before turning 33, and I don't blame him a bit for retiring since the only fight he wanted was theSRL rematch. Marv come up the hard way, but could be Golovkin came up harder as an Eastern Europeon where he was on the shelf for a year or two trying to escape his promoter for greener American pastures. Marv has more pro fights, but Golovkin many more ama fights and rounds sparring.

But the facts are Marv never had to fight guys as big as Canelo, Golovkin, Jacobs, ect. This ain't yer daddy's middle division, and the fact is here and there Hagler struggled with losses and other tough fights like Mugabi or Duran, little guys compared to today. Nothing wrong with a little 160 lb Duran on his best night, but the notion that Marv by default beats a guy better than any Marv fought is infantile. Anybody claiming to know Marv beats Golovkin ain't playing with a full deck, not because their punch drunk, but because from the general natures of these besotted bummers as expressed in posts past demonstrate their glue or crack damaged derangement.

[Ambling Alp II]

Golovkin is 5' 10.5" .... Plus he has the best jab in the game and is one of the best punchers ever... Unlike Hagler, Golovkin has never lost or been knocked down or even staggered by a punch.

Hagler lost 3 times to opponents he was highly favored to beat... One of those was to a rusted out Welter named Ray, who was coming off of a 3-year-layoff - and abandoned the Middleweight Title soon after winning it from Hagler.

You see, Leonard's claim to retire was a subterfuge… The division was stacked with big, tall, brutally powerful Middleweights who were great boxers and dynamite hitters... Therefore, both Hagler and Leonard headed for retirement at an early age when there were still millions of dollars to be made with their rematch etc.

But Leonard cleverly returned with a fight against unknown Light Heavyweight Donny Lalonde who he induced to boil down to 168.. He ingeniously got the WBC to approve the fight as being for 2 different World Titles in 2 different weight divisions – the lighter of which he wouldn’t have to defend against mandatories and could defend it at 160 against whoever he pleased. Pretty damned slick. You have to admire Leonard's business acumen – something Mayweather picked up on.

Precisely why it's so difficult to compare active fighters to retired ones. Let's see how Golovkin does in the last fight of his career. Or even how he does in the last few years of his career. Then, we can make a more accurate assessment. You are right, he hasn't lost...but, it's not over. Personally, I won't see him that differently even if he does lose a fight or two late in his career, why should I? Fighters get old, it's not always just about stats. Boxing is disturbingly nuanced, it's about who you fought, and when, and a myriad other things....it's annoying sometimes.

You make good points about boxing being nuanced. You can't just go by stats. The stage of a fighter's career (and his opponents) need to be taken into consideration.
They both were similar in that they fought the best around, but their competition was not that particularly impressive. Overall, Hagler's victims as better than Golvokin's, though Golvolkin would have beaten Hamsho, Sibson etc anyway. Hagler had ran out of opponents that anyone cared about at the time he took the Leonard fight.
Having said all that, Hagler was a better all around fighter and would have beaten Golovkin.

[Kalan]

I don't see how you can say Hagler was a better all-around fighter.... He didn't have a better jab, stronger power shots, or a better defense... He lost to a Welterweight who was coming off a 3-year-layoff with no tune-up fights at 32.

Remember that Sugar Ray Leonard was younger than Gennady Golovkin and also had fewer victories than Golovkin when Ray faced China-chinned Terry Norris and got hammered with 2 knockdowns and thoroughly outboxed all the way -- yet Ray ripped combinations through Hagler's leaky defense and thumped him with sustained flurries to the face...

[BoxBuzz]

I honestly don't see a crazy opinion in this group. Funny how small differences in outlook can cause some of us to judge others as inept.

I'd listen to Freddie Roache's opinion if he chimed in....and if he heavily favored Marvin, I'd go back and look at what I must have missed.....I do think he's a good assessor.

In fact.....seems like a good thread subject.

[Kalan]

Ray ripped nothing, preferring to impress his tame judge Jose Guerra with pitty patty shots and thumped him with sustained flurries to the arms and gloves

HA!!! ... Pitty pats to arms and gloves which rocked Hagler's head and broke his nose - ending his career and impressing the judges that Leonard outboxed and outsmarted the bigger, stronger man coming off a 3-year-layoff with no tuneups... Time for Hagler to cut and run... The division had MIke McCallum, Michael Nunn, and Julian Jackson coming up.

[jas80s]

Precisely why it's so difficult to compare active fighters to retired ones. Let's see how Golovkin does in the last fight of his career. Or even how he does in the last few years of his career. Then, we can make a more accurate assessment. You are right, he hasn't lost...but, it's not over. Personally, I won't see him that differently even if he does lose a fight or two late in his career, why should I? Fighters get old, it's not always just about stats. Boxing is disturbingly nuanced, it's about who you fought, and when, and a myriad other things....it's annoying sometimes.

- You have a much better take than the usual derelicts using this forum for their personal potty, but boxing can still be broken down to a degree, just never perfectly because of differences of eras.

This era being one of the worst because of wholesale corruption that also reflects the degree of world corruption within the western world. Golovkin is currently 35 years soon to be 36 next year. Marv fought his last fight just before turning 33, and I don't blame him a bit for retiring since the only fight he wanted was theSRL rematch. Marv come up the hard way, but could be Golovkin came up harder as an Eastern Europeon where he was on the shelf for a year or two trying to escape his promoter for greener American pastures. Marv has more pro fights, but Golovkin many more ama fights and rounds sparring.

But the facts are Marv never had to fight guys as big as Canelo, Golovkin, Jacobs, ect. This ain't yer daddy's middle division, and the fact is here and there Hagler struggled with losses and other tough fights like Mugabi or Duran, little guys compared to today. Nothing wrong with a little 160 lb Duran on his best night, but the notion that Marv by default beats a guy better than any Marv fought is infantile. Anybody claiming to know Marv beats Golovkin ain't playing with a full deck, not because their punch drunk, but because from the general natures of these besotted bummers as expressed in posts past demonstrate their glue or crack damaged derangement.

I would agree that anybody that claims to "know" what would happen in a fantasy match up is pretty much a joke. It's one thing to have an opinion, but to act as those there is no way it could be wrong is actually the hallmark of having no idea what you are talking about. The people who come at it from that point of view might get people to respond, but nobody respects their opinion or thinks they know what they are talking about.

Jacobs is a huge middle, but I think Hagler fought guys as big as GGG and Canelo. One aspect of this fight that intrigues me is Hagler's ability to fight orthodox or as a a southpaw. It gives him some options to work on decreasing the effectiveness of the Golovkin jab and to draw GGG into the fight he wants. This lead me to lean slightly towards Hagler, but it's not like I couldn't see GGG winning, and I am quite sure he would a portion of the time. Does anyone honestly think one of these guys would beat the other 100 out of 100 times??

Anyway, my first thought was that Marvin would want to make this fight into trench warfare and that GGG would probably oblige. I have a hard time envisioning Hagler losing in a war, it just seemed like he loved a good high contact fight so much that he almost GAINED strength from it. To me, this is one of those fights that I would absolutely love to see. I think they would bring out the best in each other.

[Kalan]

That "report" is just another biased piece of BS from Leonard haters and Hagler lovers...

Go to 13:39 of this video and watch the first 2 rounds...which Leonard won easily setting the tone for the fight... Leonard throws and lands a lot of big, hard, loaded punches in the first 2 rounds especially right hands -- and then taunts Hagler by mugging at him after the 2nd round... Everything was going his way... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7BtibY7cns

The first big right from Leonard lands at 15:33 with many to follow... Pitty pat my ass... Hag felt that to his booties... Gil Clancy was admonishing Marv for fighting a stupid fight... "Hagler can't win this fighting in an orthodox stance."

[Kalan]

Anybody who thinks Hagler beat Leonard is a very slow, biased, and stodgy thinker ... and they need new glasses.

And who GAF what clueless moron McIlvanney and his pudsucker Old-N-Moldie think?

Go to http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Marvi ... ay_Leonard and "Media Scorcards"

Scroll down ... and If you have brains enough to tie your own shoes you'll find the following:

Media Scorecards:
Dave Anderson of the New York Times: 114-114
Associated Press: 117-112 Hagler
Baltimore Sun: 7-5 in rounds Leonard
Al Bernstein of ESPN: 115-113 Hagler
Dave Bontempo of ESPN: 114-114
Boston Globe: 117-111 Leonard
Boston Herald 116-113 Leonard
Chicago Sun-Times: 115-114 Hagler
Chicago Tribune: 7-5 in rounds Hagler
Nigel Collins of The Ring: 115-113 Leonard
Howard Cosell: 117-112 Leonard
Houston Chronicle: 115-114 Leonard
Michael Katz: 117-112 Leonard
Harold Lederman of HBO: 115-113 Leonard
Phill Marder of The Ring: 114-114
Larry Merchant of HBO: 114-114
New York Daily News: 117-111 Leonard
New York Post: 114-114
Newsday: 115-114 Hagler
Philadelphia Daily News: 116-112 Leonard
Oakland Tribune: 117-112 Leonard
Jeff Ryan of KO Magazine: 118-111 Leonard
San Jose Mercury-News: 116-115 Hagler
United Press International: 116-112 Leonard
Washington Post: 114-114

Only 6 of 25 media observers scored it for Hagler -- a massive favorite -- 13 (MOST observers) scored it for Leonard...

As for Gil Clancy's remark "Is [Hagler} ever missing...Leonard isn't doing anything to make him miss, he's just missing!"

If you're a World Champion professional boxer who's throwing punches with bad intentions in a high profile fight -- and you're missing -- your opponent IS making you miss... If you land those shots it's money in your pocket... Hagler's timing was for shitt.. Rusted out Welterweight Leonard (who never boxed Middleweight before) boxed his ass off...

[Ned Merrill]

At his very best, Hagler was a switch-hitting counter-puncher who knew how to use the rounds to stack up points while disassembling iron-tough foes in a grittier era. The only weakness I noted in Marvin appeared in late 1983 with Duran, who I submit, like Ray Leonard after him, managed to get somewhat into Marv's head.

We don't know how GGG would fare in an era NOT of fixed weigh-in times (yeah, that is what it amounts to), against a rounded confident and composed technician who at his best was a machine. I can envision GGG rocking Hagler to his socks, then realizing, that his tool box is too shallow as Marv adjusted, round by round, switched stances and went to work. It would be competitive, and I suspect GGG would take the first 3rd of the match, but by the 5th the tide would turn and it would come down to how much conditioning and mental grit GGG would have as he is increasingly tom-tom'ed by "lefty and righty".

[Kalan]

At his very best, Hagler was a switch-hitting counter-puncher who knew how to use the rounds to stack up points while disassembling iron-tough foes in a grittier era. The only weakness I noted in Marvin appeared in late 1983 with Duran, who I submit, like Ray Leonard after him, managed to get somewhat into Marv's head.

We don't know how GGG would fare in an era NOT of fixed weigh-in times (yeah, that is what it amounts to), against a rounded confident and composed technician who at his best was a machine. I can envision GGG rocking Hagler to his socks, then realizing, that his tool box is too shallow as Marv adjusted, round by round, switched stances and went to work. It would be competitive, and I suspect GGG would take the first 3rd of the match, but by the 5th the tide would turn and it would come down to how much conditioning and mental grit GGG would have as he is increasingly tom-tom'ed by "lefty and righty".

Lefty and Righty didn't work well vs a Welterweight who was coming off a 3-year-layoff... Hagler got beat... Hag had 3 losses and Golovkin has none... Plus, Hagler never met a great natural Middleweight and was done when he was 32.

If Hagler fought until he was 36 or 38, as Triple-G likely will, he would have run into some ATG Middleweights who'd have been better tests for him than swingers like Mugabi and Roldan -- who got knocked out 10 times between them...

Leonard out-smarted Hagler, but wanted NOTHING to do with ATG Middleweights: Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, or James Toney when they came up... Leonard ducked around and escaped to 154 - where he was thoroughly dominated and mopped up by Terry Norris .... a guy who also blasted out the crude John Mugabi like he was a 5th rate fighter.

[NateJR]

There are a handful of fighters who campaigned at 160 that I would favor to beat GGG. Better fighters than both Jacobs and Canelo who I felt matched GGG. You could make a argument that both them fought to a draw against GGG and even giving Jaconbs the win wouldn't be crazy.

Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr., Marvin Hagler, James Toney, Ray Robinson, Carlos Monzon.. Just to name a few fighters who would give as much and more than Alvarez or Jacobs have to offer and people saying GGG is the best Middleweight in history? Lmao.

[Ned Merrill]

At his very best, Hagler was a switch-hitting counter-puncher who knew how to use the rounds to stack up points while disassembling iron-tough foes in a grittier era. The only weakness I noted in Marvin appeared in late 1983 with Duran, who I submit, like Ray Leonard after him, managed to get somewhat into Marv's head.

We don't know how GGG would fare in an era NOT of fixed weigh-in times (yeah, that is what it amounts to), against a rounded confident and composed technician who at his best was a machine. I can envision GGG rocking Hagler to his socks, then realizing, that his tool box is too shallow as Marv adjusted, round by round, switched stances and went to work. It would be competitive, and I suspect GGG would take the first 3rd of the match, but by the 5th the tide would turn and it would come down to how much conditioning and mental grit GGG would have as he is increasingly tom-tom'ed by "lefty and righty".

Lefty and Righty didn't work well vs a Welterweight who was coming off a 3-year-layoff... Hagler got beat... Hag had 3 losses and Golovkin has none... Plus, Hagler never met a great natural Middleweight and was done when he was 32.

If Hagler fought until he was 36 or 38, as Triple-G likely will, he would have run into some ATG Middleweights who'd have been better tests for him than swingers like Mugabi and Roldan -- who got knocked out 10 times between them...

Leonard out-smarted Hagler, but wanted NOTHING to do with ATG Middleweights: Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, or James Toney when they came up... Leonard ducked around and escaped to 154 - where he was thoroughly dominated and mopped up by Terry Norris .... a guy who also blasted out the crude John Mugabi like he was a 5th rate fighter.

No, "Lefty and Righty" didn't work with Leonard, but I'm not discussing Leonard here, or a Hagler a quart low and coming off of "let go" and 13 months on the shelf, I'm supposing how a match with GGG would go, with Marv hungry, focused and at his very best.

I am an unabashed fan of GGG, and have been for 7 years. I think he is underrated to a degree and at the same time, the extreme occurs with others. I'm NOT concerned with Marv's early schooling and losses. Equally so, while I look at GGG's early schooling and perfect ascension, I do understand the difference in eras and take that streak with a pinch of salt.

I also understand that in the Leonard match, Ray had moved into Marv's head and effectively rearranged ALL of the furniture in the months before the contest, as evidenced by Hagler's willingness to sell out certain points re the match, and by his insistence to try to box with Ray in those key early rounds. Marv was dancing to the organ grinder's tune. But further to that end, on April 6th 1987, Marv was in no way the same animal that he had been 1980-1982. He was more the stalker than the hungry, calculating counter-puncher who knew how to follow a road map and work a foe into folly.

I submit that GGG has had his Ray Leonard moment, and against a poor man's facsimile of Leonard, but against a fighter not nearly the fluid great ring general and technician that Ray was. And having said that, he may have indeed deserved the win.

Perhaps the real question is this, when was GGG at his absolute best? He seems to have ventured some beyond that point, perhaps by a couple of years.

I do believe GGG would have been very competitive with Hagler, especially early. I just have no reference point of note to know how our Alfred E, Newman clone would do, should he find himself the target and falling behind late in a contest. The Alvarez bout gives us a clue, but how would he have done with someone like Hagler, who had a hell of a grill, a complicated, fluid style, and a monster's resolve?

[Kalan]

No, "Lefty and Righty" didn't work with Leonard, but I'm not discussing Leonard here, or a Hagler a quart low and coming off of "let go" and 13 months on the shelf, I'm supposing how a match with GGG would go, with Marv hungry, focused and at his very best.

I am an unabashed fan of GGG, and have been for 7 years. I think he is underrated to a degree and at the same time, the extreme occurs with others. I'm NOT concerned with Marv's early schooling and losses. Equally so, while I look at GGG's early schooling and perfect ascension, I do understand the difference in eras and take that streak with a pinch of salt.

I also understand that in the Leonard match, Ray had moved into Marv's head and effectively rearranged ALL of the furniture in the months before the contest, as evidenced by Hagler's willingness to sell out certain points re the match, and by his insistence to try to box with Ray in those key early rounds. Marv was dancing to the organ grinder's tune. But further to that end, on April 6th 1987, Marv was in no way the same animal that he had been 1980-1982. He was more the stalker than the hungry, calculating counter-puncher who knew how to follow a road map and work a foe into folly.

I submit that GGG has had his Ray Leonard moment, and against a poor man's facsimile of Leonard, but against a fighter not nearly the fluid great ring general and technician that Ray was. And having said that, he may have indeed deserved the win.

Perhaps the real question is this, when was GGG at his absolute best? He seems to have ventured some beyond that point, perhaps by a couple of years.

I do believe GGG would have been very competitive with Hagler, especially early. I just have no reference point of note to know how our Alfred E, Newman clone would do, should he find himself the target and falling behind late in a contest. The Alvarez bout gives us a clue, but how would he have done with someone like Hagler, who had a hell of a grill, a complicated, fluid style, and a monster's resolve?

Monster's resolve??? You’ve gotta be kidding right??? ... You say you’re a GGG fan and you call him an Afred E Newman CLONE??? That’s a staple putdown of Triple-G HATERS dude... That’s your true colors.

There IS a difference in eras... Hagler ruled the weakest Middleweight era EVER!!! and I say that as Hagler’s biggest fan.. As SOON as great big, tall, powerful, slick, highly skilled and mentally sharp Middleweights came along (Mike McCallum and Michael Nunn) Hagler FO’d... Leonard didn’t retire, but sidestepped around the Middleweight Division for the next few years like a magically adroit Roger the Dodger.. Ray was better at ducking fights and fighting the right sucker at the right time than Floyd.

Leonard pretended to retire. And for his next fight ducked the Middleweight Division altogether. He faced unknown terrible boxer Donny Lalonde at a weight of his own choosing...bribing Lalonde with millions to come down to 168, thereby boiling 7 pounds off him. SRL also bribed the WBC to recognize the farce for 2 Divisional Titles in one (1) fight. Terribly funny because Andre Ward didn’t pick up Chad Dawson’s 175lb Title – but SRL was damned clever from a business perspective. You have to admire that.

Lalonde’s crude punches floored the hittable Leonard, but the drained Lalonde soon melted like a pat of butter on a stack of hot cakes. The corrupt WBC allowed Leonard to defend his 168 Title weighing 160 against whoever he chose. Safe to say Ray wasn’t going to fight McCallum or Nunn if his life depended on it. When promoters ramped up the pressure Ray escaped to 154 and Norris.

Now back to my hero Hagler ... Leonard didn’t rearrange Marv’s furniture... He rearranged his face with blistering combinations and loaded punches.. He knew Hagler had nothing from watching the super crude Mugabi light Hagler up.. This was nothing new.. Inept Middleweights landed shots on Marvin’s face going way back.. If Hearns had a Middleweight's power, chin, or a good defense he would have knocked the snot out of Hagler. Leonard could defend himself better than Tommy - but he’d be helpless against a great Middleweight of with major size and strength advantages.. Remember, Hagler was a slender little dude for a Middleweight.. Nunn, Toney, Golovkin or Alvarez would have battered Leonard helpless far worse than Terry Norris did.

And oh BTW.... Golovkin-Alvarez gives us NO clue how Golovkin would react to falling behind... Anybody who thinks Alvarez won that fight is blind as a bat, biased as Oscar De La Hoya, or dumb as a doorpost.

[Ned Merrill]

No, "Lefty and Righty" didn't work with Leonard, but I'm not discussing Leonard here, or a Hagler a quart low and coming off of "let go" and 13 months on the shelf, I'm supposing how a match with GGG would go, with Marv hungry, focused and at his very best.

I am an unabashed fan of GGG, and have been for 7 years. I think he is underrated to a degree and at the same time, the extreme occurs with others. I'm NOT concerned with Marv's early schooling and losses. Equally so, while I look at GGG's early schooling and perfect ascension, I do understand the difference in eras and take that streak with a pinch of salt.

I also understand that in the Leonard match, Ray had moved into Marv's head and effectively rearranged ALL of the furniture in the months before the contest, as evidenced by Hagler's willingness to sell out certain points re the match, and by his insistence to try to box with Ray in those key early rounds. Marv was dancing to the organ grinder's tune. But further to that end, on April 6th 1987, Marv was in no way the same animal that he had been 1980-1982. He was more the stalker than the hungry, calculating counter-puncher who knew how to follow a road map and work a foe into folly.

I submit that GGG has had his Ray Leonard moment, and against a poor man's facsimile of Leonard, but against a fighter not nearly the fluid great ring general and technician that Ray was. And having said that, he may have indeed deserved the win.

Perhaps the real question is this, when was GGG at his absolute best? He seems to have ventured some beyond that point, perhaps by a couple of years.

I do believe GGG would have been very competitive with Hagler, especially early. I just have no reference point of note to know how our Alfred E, Newman clone would do, should he find himself the target and falling behind late in a contest. The Alvarez bout gives us a clue, but how would he have done with someone like Hagler, who had a hell of a grill, a complicated, fluid style, and a monster's resolve?

Monster's resolve??? You’ve gotta be kidding right??? ... You say you’re a GGG fan and you call him an Afred E Newman CLONE??? That’s a staple putdown of Triple-G HATERS dude... That’s your true colors.

There IS a difference in eras... Hagler ruled the weakest Middleweight era EVER!!! and I say that as Hagler’s biggest fan.. As SOON as great big, tall, powerful, slick, highly skilled and mentally sharp Middleweights came along (Mike McCallum and Michael Nunn) Hagler FO’d... Leonard didn’t retire, but sidestepped around the Middleweight Division for the next few years like a magically adroit Roger the Dodger.. Ray was better at ducking fights and fighting the right sucker at the right time than Floyd.

Leonard pretended to retire. And for his next fight ducked the Middleweight Division altogether. He faced unknown terrible boxer Donny Lalonde at a weight of his own choosing...bribing Lalonde with millions to come down to 168, thereby boiling 7 pounds off him. SRL also bribed the WBC to recognize the farce for 2 Divisional Titles in one (1) fight. Terribly funny because Andre Ward didn’t pick up Chad Dawson’s 175lb Title – but SRL was damned clever from a business perspective. You have to admire that.

Lalonde’s crude punches floored the hittable Leonard, but the drained Lalonde soon melted like a pat of butter on a stack of hot cakes. The corrupt WBC allowed Leonard to defend his 168 Title weighing 160 against whoever he chose. Safe to say Ray wasn’t going to fight McCallum or Nunn if his life depended on it. When promoters ramped up the pressure Ray escaped to 154 and Norris.

Now back to my hero Hagler ... Leonard didn’t rearrange Marv’s furniture... He rearranged his face with blistering combinations and loaded punches.. He knew Hagler had nothing from watching the super crude Mugabi light Hagler up.. This was nothing new.. Inept Middleweights landed shots on Marvin’s face going way back.. If Hearns had a Middleweight's power, chin, or a good defense he would have knocked the snot out of Hagler. Leonard could defend himself better than Tommy - but he’d be helpless against a great Middleweight of with major size and strength advantages.. Remember, Hagler was a slender little dude for a Middleweight.. Nunn, Toney, Golovkin or Alvarez would have battered Leonard helpless far worse than Terry Norris did.

And oh BTW.... Golovkin-Alvarez gives us NO clue how Golovkin would react to falling behind... Anybody who thinks Alvarez won that fight is blind as a bat, biased as Oscar De La Hoya, or dumb as a doorpost.

Before we go any further, I think you would be well served to properly read into my comments with a touch more critical thinking. GGG has an Alfred E. Newman resemblance. He looks more than a tad like that character, but such is where any resemblance ends. YES, I am a GGG fan, yet you've FAILED to read into that or the remark, and what was delivered, by me, before or after it That's on you. Forgive me for being too subtle. That's on me. ;)

Thank you for enlightening me about what Nunn, Toney, GGG or Alvarez would have done to Leonard. I've spent many years wondering EXACTLY that point. Now I know. ;)

Incredible. Golovkin-Alvarez gave you and "others" no clue on how GGG would react to falling behind. It did me.

Am I blind as a bat?

Am I as biased on Oscar?

Am I as dumb as a doorpost?

Be careful in your answers. The clues are there to be reread, provided they are read with a critical and discerning eye.

[jbizzle20]

Prime Hagler couldn't be stopped. I know GGG has great power but Hearns hit Hagler flush and broke his own hand without moving Hagler an inch. Mugabi had immense power and stamina but Mugabi threw the kitchen sink at him and still failed. Hagler would eventually cut the ring down to a phone booth and overwhelm GGG, who can be dropped. I think GGG is a legend but Hagler was a freak that the division will likely never see again.

[Kalan]

Remember, Hagler was a slender little dude for a Middleweight..

This cretinous filth wants to refer to Hagler as being a " slender, little dude "

Maybe for a skinny little monkey turd like you he's a monster... I'm a big, tall Heavyweight... For me Marv's a slender little dude... He got whipped by a rusted out Welterweight who was coming off a 3-year-layoff....not a great effort... A small Middleweight, he stayed at 160 his whole career because he was slender and didn't put on weight... Never fought a Middleweight the size of James Toney, Roy Jones, or other Middleweights who fought decent sized Heavyweights and fought for Heavyweight Titles...

Mayweather is a slender little dude too... For you he's some kind of a monster because he could step on a little mouse like you... It all depends on your perspective... For Wilt Chamberlain most Heavyweights were little fellas.