Transformational Fighters

[slappy]

Weird topic but this was on my mind. I was thinking about fighters whose styles changed the way other boxers fought. This is not the same as greatness. For example, Sugar Ray Leonard perfected the art of boxing. But he didn't really change the sport in the sense that he developed a "new style". For example:

Lennox Lewis was a truly transformational fighter (through you could credit Manny Steward here). He was the first of the era of big HWs and others like Wlad emulated everything he did. While the new era (Wilder and Joshua) are not really following his template (jab from a distance, slow the pace, drop big punches when the opportunities present themselves) they are probably taking unnecessary risks but not doing so.

Gene Tunney is another one. A Sweet Science guy who showed the world that good boxers could beat the swarming punchers of the era.

Floyd Mayweather is someone who every fighter should study. A former reflex fighter who completely adapted his style to his own fading gifts by mastering how to pace a fight, layup on ropes, roll the shoulder, etc. Of course not everyone can do what he did. He also made in-fight adjustments that are so subtle. But he also recognized that he couldn't keep slipping punches in the middle of the ring the way he had in his 20s. Something RJJ failed to do.

Are there any transformational guys who come to mind?

[Ruthless-RKO]

Wladimir Klitschko would have to be another.. Again because of Steward. He still had that fire, but became very much defensive.. and it paid off.

[Boxing Writer]

Weird topic but this was on my mind. I was thinking about fighters whose styles changed the way other boxers fought. This is not the same as greatness. For example, Sugar Ray Leonard perfected the art of boxing. But he didn't really change the sport in the sense that he developed a "new style". For example:

Lennox Lewis was a truly transformational fighter (through you could credit Manny Steward here). He was the first of the era of big HWs and others like Wlad emulated everything he did. While the new era (Wilder and Joshua) are not really following his template (jab from a distance, slow the pace, drop big punches when the opportunities present themselves) they are probably taking unnecessary risks but not doing so.

Gene Tunney is another one. A Sweet Science guy who showed the world that good boxers could beat the swarming punchers of the era.

Floyd Mayweather is someone who every fighter should study. A former reflex fighter who completely adapted his style to his own fading gifts by mastering how to pace a fight, layup on ropes, roll the shoulder, etc. Of course not everyone can do what he did. He also made in-fight adjustments that are so subtle. But he also recognized that he couldn't keep slipping punches in the middle of the ring the way he had in his 20s. Something RJJ failed to do.

Are there any transformational guys who come to mind?

I actually think that Wilder tries to emulate Lewis (and Wlad) to certain extent, but he doesn't have their fundamentals and their patience. Joshua, of course, has different style. But as for being transformational? It's hard to say. Because big guys like Tyrell Biggs tried to box the same way - jab from a distance, slow the pace and so on. Lewis and Wlad after him were just much better in everything than Biggs. Lewis literally in everything and Wlad in everything with the exception of his inside game (unless you count clinches as the part of inside game). So they have achieved much, much more than he did.

[Kalan]

Duran.

The guy perfected the art of being right in the other guys face, and still make them hit next to nothing, by slipping, blocking, or rolling with the punches. His defence was hugely under rated.

Cue Kolon to spend the next week trying to convince anyone stupid enough to believe him Duran was a crap inside fighter, with no defense at all.

FO Old-n-Moldie... I always said Duran was the greatest Lightweight of all time... He was an excellent all-around boxer... You're the hateful stupid ass who thinks Mike Tyson is the most overrated piece of shitt ever and Americans suck ass.

[Kalan]

There are very few transformational fighters.

Tommy Ryan was one.... Jack Johnson was another.... Gene Tunney tried to perfect every skill....

Willie Pep out-boxed taller men with longer reaches by the use of footwork, feints, timing, and leaping off his feet with some shots.... However the best Pep was during his first 110 fights and and there's very few of those available.

Salvador Sanchez was the rare super smooth boxer who wore you out with constant pressure.... He be on you even in the 15th round and drive like Hell to the final bell... He could box extremely well from the outside, but also finished you with a devastating inside game -- as he demonstrated with the undefeated, shorter and stockier Wilfredo Gomez.

Probably the biggest innovator has been Vasyl Lomachenko... He's so effective with studying his opponents every move and feint, and then setting them up with his own unique footwork and feints -- that he gains unheard of angles of attack even on elite boxers... Other boxers study his fights seeking clues to how he gets opponents turned and sets them up.... HIs sequence of combinations has never been duplicated.

Anthony Joshua had a short amateur career, but got to the top with lightning speed... Similarly with the pro game... He won a World Heavyweight Title in super dominant fashion when he had 15 fights... Joshua tries to do everything... He studied Klitschko's jab and Mayweather's right counters... He cuts off the ring with some of his own designs... He baits opponents by sticking his tongue out and talking to them like Leonard and Ali... He throws single shots and combinations... He works inside and outside and up and down...

AJ constantly experiments with different trainers and coaches who specialize in strength, conditioning, flexibility, balance, and speed... He'll bring in a dozen or more sparring partners... As he increases his net worth he invests even more in facilities, trainers, and coaches.

[slappy]

There are very few transformational fighters.

Tommy Ryan was one.... Jack Johnson was another.... Gene Tunney tried to perfect every skill....

Willie Pep out-boxed taller men with longer reaches by the use of footwork, feints, timing, and leaping off his feet with some shots.... However the best Pep was during his first 110 fights and and there's very few of those available.

Salvador Sanchez was the rare super smooth boxer who wore you out with constant pressure.... He be on you even in the 15th round and drive like Hell to the final bell... He could box extremely well from the outside, but also finished you with a devastating inside game -- as he demonstrated with the undefeated, shorter and stockier Wilfredo Gomez.

Probably the biggest innovator has been Vasyl Lomachenko... He's so effective with studying his opponents every move and feint, and then setting them up with his own unique footwork and feints -- that he gains unheard of angles of attack even on elite boxers... Other boxers study his fights seeking clues to how he gets opponents turned and sets them up.... HIs sequence of combinations has never been duplicated.

Anthony Joshua had a short amateur career, but got to the top with lightning speed... Similarly with the pro game... He won a World Heavyweight Title in super dominant fashion when he had 15 fights... Joshua tries to do everything... He studied Klitschko's jab and Mayweather's right counters... He cuts off the ring with some of his own designs... He baits opponents by sticking his tongue out and talking to them like Leonard and b Ali... He throws single shots and combinations... He works inside and outside and up and down...

AJ constantly experiments with different trainers and coaches who specialize in strength, conditioning, flexibility, balance, and speed... He'll bring in a dozen or more sparring partners... As he increases his net worth he invests even more in facilities, trainers, and coaches.

Jack Johnson is definitely one of the innovators! One the greatest defensive fighters ever

[Kalan]

He was.... I was going to mention him.... He would block or parry a punch and nail you with the same hand from the same side... because that hand wasn't back in guard position for defense... He also took a lot of strength off his punches just to make contact as he chattered away with ringsiders... Then he'd hit you with one big shot... He hated to waste punches and had a high accuracy rate....which tends to make some people think you can land at will.

[BitPlayer]

I misunderstood remove this

[littlepug]

Ali ? he helped pave the way for hands down reflex based boxing

[Kalan]

Ali ? he helped pave the way for hands down reflex based boxing

That wasn't transformational.... Tunney was a master at fighting with his hands down and could rip your body out using a very low hand position.... Ali's "German Tank" and "Rop-a-Dope" were both "Hiding behind your gloves" defenses that some thought were innovative.. In fact, Ali took a lot of punishment hiding behind his gloves.... He did it to wear opponents down and tire them out.... He was a great absorber -- but for somebody who's chin wasn't that great it wouldn't be as effective... I never saw too many boxers employ those tactics cuz it shortens your career.

A novice boxer could do worse than emulate Harold Johnson for a style that can handle anyone... He was known for having somewhat of a weak chin but took very few punches... He had a very basic style - good, solid, comfortable stance, knees with the right bend, weight distributed correctly, shoulders, torso, and hand position correct - ready to punch hard with the least effort inside or outside working up and down, and setting everything up with a tireless jab that he could nail anybody with... His fight with Doug Jones is a classic, but he complained after the fight of being very weak.

He believed in doing roadwork at daybreak. He followed that with push-ups, pull-ups, and sit-ups to build arm and torso strength, then plenty of bacon and eggs or steak and eggs with buckwheat pancakes. When you ask people what they eat for breakfast it seems everyone did it a little differently. Some believe in not eating that much at night so they sleep better and in fueling up like crazy in the morning.

[BitPlayer]

Jack Johnson is definitely one of the innovators! One the greatest defensive fighters ever

I'm not so sure he was, if anything a lot of his grappling was pretty old school, just really good at it. He was taught a lot by Choyenski.

[BitPlayer]

Jem Mace was not only very skilled, but himself taught Bob Fitzsimmons and Peter Jackson.

I think I remember hearing Richard Humphrey's influenced the stance of a lot of later bareknuckle fighters (think the classic bareknuckle stance)

Dutch Sam invented the uppercut

[littlepug]

Ali ? he helped pave the way for hands down reflex based boxing

That wasn't transformational.... Tunney was a master at fighting with his hands down and could rip your body out using a very low hand position.... Ali's "German Tank" and "Rop-a-Dope" were both "Hiding behind your gloves" defenses that some thought were innovative.. In fact, Ali took a lot of punishment hiding behind his gloves.... He did it to wear opponents down and tire them out.... He was a great absorber -- but for somebody who's chin wasn't that great it wouldn't be as effective... I never saw too many boxers employ those tactics cuz it shortens your career.

A novice boxer could do worse than emulate Harold Johnson for a style that can handle anyone... He was known for having somewhat of a weak chin but took very few punches... He had a very basic style - good, solid, comfortable stance, knees with the right bend, weight distributed correctly, shoulders, torso, and hand position correct - ready to punch hard with the least effort inside or outside working up and down, and setting everything up with a tireless jab that he could nail anybody with... His fight with Doug Jones is a classic, but he complained after the fight of being very weak.

He believed in doing roadwork at daybreak. He followed that with push-ups, pull-ups, and sit-ups to build arm and torso strength, then plenty of bacon and eggs or steak and eggs with buckwheat pancakes. When you ask people what they eat for breakfast it seems everyone did it a little differently. Some believe in not eating that much at night so they sleep better and in fueling up like crazy in the morning.

I disagree, from what ive seen of Tunney he was nothing like Ali, Ali influenced generations of fighters with his unique style of beating people on the back foot, his balance was that good he could sway away from a punch then plant his feet to counter almost as one movement, its a style thats been copied ever since in one form or another

[Tomasino]

Rocky Marciano. He was seen as crude and small at the start of his career and became one of the greatest and most underrated champions in history. By the time he fought for the title he had developed a style which seen him always in position to counter and he took a lot more steam off punches than it seemed. His block and counter punch style was very effective against multiple styles and his power was incredible for his size. Beating Ezzard Charles twice is some going.

[Caractacus]

Did any metinon of course "Gentleman Jim " Corbett ?

(That's what you call from "the root to the fruit".
when it comes to latter day boxers.

[Kalan]

Ali ? he helped pave the way for hands down reflex based boxing

That wasn't transformational.... Tunney was a master at fighting with his hands down and could rip your body out using a very low hand position.... Ali's "German Tank" and "Rop-a-Dope" were both "Hiding behind your gloves" defenses that some thought were innovative.. In fact, Ali took a lot of punishment hiding behind his gloves.... He did it to wear opponents down and tire them out.... He was a great absorber -- but for somebody who's chin wasn't that great it wouldn't be as effective... I never saw too many boxers employ those tactics cuz it shortens your career.

A novice boxer could do worse than emulate Harold Johnson for a style that can handle anyone... He was known for having somewhat of a weak chin but took very few punches... He had a very basic style - good, solid, comfortable stance, knees with the right bend, weight distributed correctly, shoulders, torso, and hand position correct - ready to punch hard with the least effort inside or outside working up and down, and setting everything up with a tireless jab that he could nail anybody with... His fight with Doug Jones is a classic, but he complained after the fight of being very weak.

He believed in doing roadwork at daybreak. He followed that with push-ups, pull-ups, and sit-ups to build arm and torso strength, then plenty of bacon and eggs or steak and eggs with buckwheat pancakes. When you ask people what they eat for breakfast it seems everyone did it a little differently. Some believe in not eating that much at night so they sleep better and in fueling up like crazy in the morning.

I disagree, from what ive seen of Tunney he was nothing like Ali, Ali influenced generations of fighters with his unique style of beating people on the back foot, his balance was that good he could sway away from a punch then plant his feet to counter almost as one movement, its a style thats been copied ever since in one form or another

Nothing new there... Dancing around to showboat has been done forever... Ali just did it less efficiently than many others and took too many hits if he fought somebody who was any good and he ended up on the ropes.... If you're talking about shoe shining with your feet or shuffling your feet around....all that is showmanship many fighters have done... All it does is dance your feet around while you stand in the same place...

Marty Marshall was a mover in the 50's who would do Sugar Ray Leonard stuff like winding up with the right and jabbing with the left... Anybody who's any good will hit you instead of looking at your feet or your faking hand... All fighters slip punches and counter. Trying to do it flashier, with your hands down and wasting motion with your feet is inefficient and generally turns off the crowd. Unless your showmanship is really exceptional you come off as a clown....but if you’re fighting a hapless wreck like Cleveland Williams was after he got shot in the stomach you can get away with it.