Liston vs. Ali II

[RandomPoster]

I am confused, Ali was standing over top of Liston the whole time and running around him in a threatening manner. I thought the count did not start until after you went to a neutral corner and if you foolishly left your corner, it started over again. If you don't like it, get to a neutral corner and stay there. Otherwise, don't complain when your opponent gets extra time.

[Kalan]

I am confused, Ali was standing over top of Liston the whole time and running around him in a threatening manner. I thought the count did not start until after you went to a neutral corner and if you foolishly left your corner, it started over again. If you don't like it, get to a neutral corner and stay there. Otherwise, don't complain when your opponent gets extra time.

Right!!! ... The count is suspended if you DON'T go to a neutral corner... The referee was so busy trying to get Ali to go to a neutral corner that Liston got NO count from the referee... And the referee is the only official who can count you OUT!!! .... If the timekeeper counted you out Buster Douglas and Gene Tunney would have another LOSS on their records.

You're not the only person confused by Ali-Liston II.... Millions were confused - including Joe Walcott.. the time keeper.. Nat Fleischer.. and every boxing commissioner who was present and all those who eventually ruled on that fight.

Some of them were not only confused about the rules -- but were completely oblivious to the rules.

They covered their asses by ruling that Liston "faked" the knockdown... His license to box was revoked in all 50 states.

It's kind of odd why ANYONE would throw a fight by faking a knockdown -- but then get up and resume fighting at a time when Ali, Liston, and Walcott ALL thought the fight was STILL ON!!! .... In fact most everybody assumed the fight was still on until Walcott had a discussion at ringside with Nat Fleischer - who was responsible for calling a halt to the fight.

In addition to Walcott, who had no reason to listen to Nat Fleischer -- who WASN'T a boxing commissioner or official.

[APerno]

I am confused, Ali was standing over top of Liston the whole time and running around him in a threatening manner. I thought the count did not start until after you went to a neutral corner and if you foolishly left your corner, it started over again. If you don't like it, get to a neutral corner and stay there. Otherwise, don't complain when your opponent gets extra time.

Right!!! ... The count is suspended if you DON'T go to a neutral corner... The referee was so busy trying to get Ali to go to a neutral corner that Liston got NO count from the referee... And the referee is the only official who can count you OUT!!! .... If the timekeeper counted you out Buster Douglas and Gene Tunney would have another LOSS on their records.

You're not the only person confused by Ali-Liston II.... Millions were confused - including Joe Walcott.. the time keeper.. Nat Fleischer.. and every boxing commissioner who was present and all those who eventually ruled on that fight.

Some of them were not only confused about the rules -- but were completely oblivious to the rules.

They covered their asses by ruling that Liston "faked" the knockdown... His license to box was revoked in all 50 states.

It's kind of odd why ANYONE would throw a fight by faking a knockdown -- but then get up and resume fighting at a time when Ali, Liston, and Walcott ALL thought the fight was STILL ON!!! .... In fact most everybody assumed the fight was still on until Walcott had a discussion at ringside with Nat Fleischer - who was responsible for calling a halt to the fight.

In addition to Walcott, who had no reason to listen to Nat Fleischer -- who WASN'T a boxing commissioner or official.

OK what if . . . ?

the ref picks up the timekeeper's count at three, at seven the opponent leaves the neutral corner, and the ref, having to deal with the opponent abandons the count at seven, the timekeeper then reaches ten. The fallen fighter does not rise remaining on the floor in a semiconscious state. When the ref finally returns 8 seconds later a total of 15 seconds have elapsed and the fallen fighter is still down. The ref picks up his own count at seven and the fallen fighter gets up at 9 (now 17).

We now are about to let a fighter we know has been KOed (ten-counted and must have suffered a concussion,) continue fighting.

Me thinks there are always going to be counting problems.

Allowing a fighter to be saved by the bell, between rounds, smacks of the same dangerous possibility; that's why you can only be saved by the bell in the last round. Being saved by the bell between rounds and having your seconds drag your half-conscious ass back to the stool and use the one minute to get you ready for the next round can be a very bad thing for your brain.

[RandomPoster]

I am confused, Ali was standing over top of Liston the whole time and running around him in a threatening manner. I thought the count did not start until after you went to a neutral corner and if you foolishly left your corner, it started over again. If you don't like it, get to a neutral corner and stay there. Otherwise, don't complain when your opponent gets extra time.

Right!!! ... The count is suspended if you DON'T go to a neutral corner... The referee was so busy trying to get Ali to go to a neutral corner that Liston got NO count from the referee... And the referee is the only official who can count you OUT!!! .... If the timekeeper counted you out Buster Douglas and Gene Tunney would have another LOSS on their records.

You're not the only person confused by Ali-Liston II.... Millions were confused - including Joe Walcott.. the time keeper.. Nat Fleischer.. and every boxing commissioner who was present and all those who eventually ruled on that fight.

Some of them were not only confused about the rules -- but were completely oblivious to the rules.

They covered their asses by ruling that Liston "faked" the knockdown... His license to box was revoked in all 50 states.

It's kind of odd why ANYONE would throw a fight by faking a knockdown -- but then get up and resume fighting at a time when Ali, Liston, and Walcott ALL thought the fight was STILL ON!!! .... In fact most everybody assumed the fight was still on until Walcott had a discussion at ringside with Nat Fleischer - who was responsible for calling a halt to the fight.

In addition to Walcott, who had no reason to listen to Nat Fleischer -- who WASN'T a boxing commissioner or official.

OK what if . . . ?

the ref picks up the timekeeper's count at three, at seven the opponent leaves the neutral corner, and the ref, having to deal with the opponent abandons the count at seven, the timekeeper then reaches ten. The fallen fighter does not rise remaining on the floor in a semiconscious state. When the ref finally returns 8 seconds later a total of 15 seconds have elapsed and the fallen fighter is still down. The ref picks up his own count at seven and the fallen fighter gets up at 9 (now 17).

We now are about to let a fighter we know has been KOed (ten-counted and must have suffered a concussion,) continue fighting.

Me thinks there are always going to be counting problems.

Allowing a fighter to be saved by the bell, between rounds, smacks of the same dangerous possibility; that's why you can only be saved by the bell in the last round. Being saved by the bell between rounds and having your seconds drag your half-conscious ass back to the stool and use the one minute to get you ready for the next round can be a very bad thing for your brain.

LOL at that tiny little "anchor punch" causing permanent damage. As far as the safety of the boxer is concerned, that has never been given as a reason. They have specifically stated that Liston being down for over 10 seconds is the reason they stopped the match. If I knock a guy down and I could have gone to a neutral corner and let him get counted out to 10, except I instead run around the ring like a retard and continually stand over him so he can't get up without getting punched in the face when he's halfway up, I have only myself to blame if he gets extra time to beat the count. Perhaps standing over your opponent until the count of nine and then leaping back to your corner for one last second to get the 10 count should become a strategy.

[APerno]

Right!!! ... The count is suspended if you DON'T go to a neutral corner... The referee was so busy trying to get Ali to go to a neutral corner that Liston got NO count from the referee... And the referee is the only official who can count you OUT!!! .... If the timekeeper counted you out Buster Douglas and Gene Tunney would have another LOSS on their records.

You're not the only person confused by Ali-Liston II.... Millions were confused - including Joe Walcott.. the time keeper.. Nat Fleischer.. and every boxing commissioner who was present and all those who eventually ruled on that fight.

Some of them were not only confused about the rules -- but were completely oblivious to the rules.

They covered their asses by ruling that Liston "faked" the knockdown... His license to box was revoked in all 50 states.

It's kind of odd why ANYONE would throw a fight by faking a knockdown -- but then get up and resume fighting at a time when Ali, Liston, and Walcott ALL thought the fight was STILL ON!!! .... In fact most everybody assumed the fight was still on until Walcott had a discussion at ringside with Nat Fleischer - who was responsible for calling a halt to the fight.

In addition to Walcott, who had no reason to listen to Nat Fleischer -- who WASN'T a boxing commissioner or official.

OK what if . . . ?

the ref picks up the timekeeper's count at three, at seven the opponent leaves the neutral corner, and the ref, having to deal with the opponent abandons the count at seven, the timekeeper then reaches ten. The fallen fighter does not rise remaining on the floor in a semiconscious state. When the ref finally returns 8 seconds later a total of 15 seconds have elapsed and the fallen fighter is still down. The ref picks up his own count at seven and the fallen fighter gets up at 9 (now 17).

We now are about to let a fighter we know has been KOed (ten-counted and must have suffered a concussion,) continue fighting.

Me thinks there are always going to be counting problems.

Allowing a fighter to be saved by the bell, between rounds, smacks of the same dangerous possibility; that's why you can only be saved by the bell in the last round. Being saved by the bell between rounds and having your seconds drag your half-conscious ass back to the stool and use the one minute to get you ready for the next round can be a very bad thing for your brain.

LOL at that tiny little "anchor punch" causing permanent damage. As far as the safety of the boxer is concerned, that has never been given as a reason. They have specifically stated that Liston being down for over 10 seconds is the reason they stopped the match. If I knock a guy down and I could have gone to a neutral corner and let him get counted out to 10, except I instead run around the ring like a retard and continually stand over him so he can't get up without getting punched in the face when he's halfway up, I have only myself to blame if he gets extra time to beat the count. Perhaps standing over your opponent until the count of nine and then leaping back to your corner for one last second to get the 10 count should become a strategy.

Agree completely, on all counts. I was just screwing with Kalan, it is a pet complaint topic of his. He is always on about how only the ref and never the timekeeper can count you out, so I created and unsafe hypothetical scenario where a KOed fighter could end up continuing. No relevance to Liston's situation intended.

No doubt much more was going on that night in Lewiston ; and agreed, the fight should not have been stopped.

[Kalan]

I am confused, Ali was standing over top of Liston the whole time and running around him in a threatening manner. I thought the count did not start until after you went to a neutral corner and if you foolishly left your corner, it started over again. If you don't like it, get to a neutral corner and stay there. Otherwise, don't complain when your opponent gets extra time.

Right!!! ... The count is suspended if you DON'T go to a neutral corner... The referee was so busy trying to get Ali to go to a neutral corner that Liston got NO count from the referee... And the referee is the only official who can count you OUT!!! .... If the timekeeper counted you out Buster Douglas and Gene Tunney would have another LOSS on their records.

You're not the only person confused by Ali-Liston II.... Millions were confused - including Joe Walcott.. the time keeper.. Nat Fleischer.. and every boxing commissioner who was present and all those who eventually ruled on that fight.

Some of them were not only confused about the rules -- but were completely oblivious to the rules.

They covered their asses by ruling that Liston "faked" the knockdown... His license to box was revoked in all 50 states.

It's kind of odd why ANYONE would throw a fight by faking a knockdown -- but then get up and resume fighting at a time when Ali, Liston, and Walcott ALL thought the fight was STILL ON!!! .... In fact most everybody assumed the fight was still on until Walcott had a discussion at ringside with Nat Fleischer - who was responsible for calling a halt to the fight.

In addition to Walcott, who had no reason to listen to Nat Fleischer -- who WASN'T a boxing commissioner or official.

OK what if . . . ?

the ref picks up the timekeeper's count at three, at seven the opponent leaves the neutral corner, and the ref, having to deal with the opponent abandons the count at seven, the timekeeper then reaches ten. The fallen fighter does not rise remaining on the floor in a semiconscious state. When the ref finally returns 8 seconds later a total of 15 seconds have elapsed and the fallen fighter is still down. The ref picks up his own count at seven and the fallen fighter gets up at 9 (now 17).

We now are about to let a fighter we know has been KOed (ten-counted and must have suffered a concussion,) continue fighting.

Me thinks there are always going to be counting problems.

Allowing a fighter to be saved by the bell, between rounds, smacks of the same dangerous possibility; that's why you can only be saved by the bell in the last round. Being saved by the bell between rounds and having your seconds drag your half-conscious ass back to the stool and use the one minute to get you ready for the next round can be a very bad thing for your brain

Well think about that for a second... Does that have ANYTHING TO DO with Ali vs Liston 2??? .... NO it doesn't...

That argument is a non-starter... You could jump up at 1 and the referee STILL has to judge if you're fit to continue... A referee's judgement that you're NOT fit to continue has nothing whatever to do with being knocked down... If you've never been knocked down but are taking an unnecessary beating you're not fit to continue and a good referee will stop it.

Liston was obviously fine without a mark on him... He was fresh and vigorous and easily evaded ALL of Ali's swarming follow shots that he ducked and dodged quite easily looking to land a KO shot on Ali... The referee needed to judge Liston's condition to continue - because under the rules he WAS NOT counted out and NEVER GOT a count from the referee...

And there AREN'T ALWAYS going to be counting problems APerno... That was a KeyStone Kops episode with ALL the officials having their heads up their asses... You have NEVER seen a boxer exhibit the kind of behavior Ali exhibited and get off clean... What frustrated me---even as a teenager---was most reporters and talking heads denouncing Liston... WHY??? Did he break any rules??? You think I'm pissed off now about it now??? .... I drove over 100 miles to watch that crappy fight... Both fighters were in excellent condition for a long fight... There were a lot of pissed off people... I thought Ali was going to be disqualified because his behavior was so unprecedented...

When in your LIFE did you see a fighter refuse a referee's orders to go to a neutral corner for the full count???

[APerno]

Right!!! ... The count is suspended if you DON'T go to a neutral corner... The referee was so busy trying to get Ali to go to a neutral corner that Liston got NO count from the referee... And the referee is the only official who can count you OUT!!! .... If the timekeeper counted you out Buster Douglas and Gene Tunney would have another LOSS on their records.

You're not the only person confused by Ali-Liston II.... Millions were confused - including Joe Walcott.. the time keeper.. Nat Fleischer.. and every boxing commissioner who was present and all those who eventually ruled on that fight.

Some of them were not only confused about the rules -- but were completely oblivious to the rules.

They covered their asses by ruling that Liston "faked" the knockdown... His license to box was revoked in all 50 states.

It's kind of odd why ANYONE would throw a fight by faking a knockdown -- but then get up and resume fighting at a time when Ali, Liston, and Walcott ALL thought the fight was STILL ON!!! .... In fact most everybody assumed the fight was still on until Walcott had a discussion at ringside with Nat Fleischer - who was responsible for calling a halt to the fight.

In addition to Walcott, who had no reason to listen to Nat Fleischer -- who WASN'T a boxing commissioner or official.

OK what if . . . ?

the ref picks up the timekeeper's count at three, at seven the opponent leaves the neutral corner, and the ref, having to deal with the opponent abandons the count at seven, the timekeeper then reaches ten. The fallen fighter does not rise remaining on the floor in a semiconscious state. When the ref finally returns 8 seconds later a total of 15 seconds have elapsed and the fallen fighter is still down. The ref picks up his own count at seven and the fallen fighter gets up at 9 (now 17).

We now are about to let a fighter we know has been KOed (ten-counted and must have suffered a concussion,) continue fighting.

Me thinks there are always going to be counting problems.

Allowing a fighter to be saved by the bell, between rounds, smacks of the same dangerous possibility; that's why you can only be saved by the bell in the last round. Being saved by the bell between rounds and having your seconds drag your half-conscious ass back to the stool and use the one minute to get you ready for the next round can be a very bad thing for your brain

Well think about that for a second... Does that have ANYTHING TO DO with Ali vs Liston 2??? .... NO it doesn't...

That argument is a non-starter... You could jump up at 1 and the referee STILL has to judge if you're fit to continue... A referee's judgement that you're NOT fit to continue has nothing whatever to do with being knocked down... If you've never been knocked down but are taking an unnecessary beating you're not fit to continue and a good referee will stop it.

Liston was obviously fine without a mark on him... He was fresh and vigorous and easily evaded ALL of Ali's swarming follow shots that he ducked and dodged quite easily looking to land a KO shot on Ali... The referee needed to judge Liston's condition to continue - because under the rules he WAS NOT counted out and NEVER GOT a count from the referee...

And there AREN'T ALWAYS going to be counting problems APerno... That was a KeyStone Kops episode with ALL the officials having their heads up their asses... You have NEVER seen a boxer exhibit the kind of behavior Ali exhibited and get off clean... What frustrated me---even as a teenager---was most reporters and talking heads denouncing Liston... WHY??? Did he break any rules??? You think I'm pissed off now about it now??? .... I drove over 100 miles to watch that crappy fight... Both fighters were in excellent condition for a long fight... There were a lot of pissed off people... I thought Ali was going to be disqualified because his behavior was so unprecedented...

When in your LIFE did you see a fighter refuse a referee's orders to go to a neutral corner for the full count???

I did think for a second and yes it has nothing to do with Ali-Liston II it was about breaking your balls.

You tend to speak in statements with hard lines drawn; to say that ONLY the referee can count you out just isn't going to work, the anomalies you call Keystone Cop moments will appear.

It is not a non-starter because in my scenario the fallen fighter was hurt but with the extended time, gained back his balance and composure and therefore the fight continued, continued with a fighter who had just been knocked out.

Unprecedented? How does Dempsey fit into this unprecedented picture of Ali's actions?

Subsequently what about Leonard (SRL)? He use to walk about the ring with his hands over his head but refs let him get away with it, and I am sure there are a few more examples.

Yes there will always be Keystone Cops incidents so when I say 'there will always be counting problems/disputes' those are the ones I am talking about.

And yes, Liston didn't have a mark on him, I don't disagree about the Ali-Liston II fight - I take issue with your statement that only the referee can 'count you out. It doesn't always work and the game needs an alternative.

BTW - Happy New Year! Hope the family is well.

[RandomPoster]

"Unprecedented? How does Dempsey fit into this unprecedented picture of Ali's actions?"

The rules were different throughout most of Dempsey's career. That is exactly why Tunney was given extra time to get up against him. Dempsey, having boxed most of his career under a different rule set, did not immediately go back to a neutral corner. The referee correctly stopped the count until he had. Even then, Dempsey did not refuse to go to a neutral corner. He did so when instructed and the count started late, resulting in the "long count".

[APerno]

"Unprecedented? How does Dempsey fit into this unprecedented picture of Ali's actions?"

The rules were different throughout most of Dempsey's career. That is exactly why Tunney was given extra time to get up against him. Dempsey, having boxed most of his career under a different rule set, did not immediately go back to a neutral corner. The referee correctly stopped the count until he had. Even then, Dempsey did not refuse to go to a neutral corner. He did so when instructed and the count started late, resulting in the "long count".

Again right - my point was that fighters don't always go to a neutral corner when they are suppose to; Ali's behavior in Lewiston was odd, but not unique. That was the point I was making, nothing to do with Barry's count.

BTW the neutral corner rule was in effect through much of Dempsey's championship run, he just ignored it; it was, and I kid you not in the rules for the Dempsey-Firpo fight, but obviously wasn't enforced. In '26 Tunney had made a very big deal about the rule being enforced, he had been ringside for Firpo and knew first hand that referees' couldn't control Dempsey. But the rule had been around several years before it came into play in '27.

Also Dempsey was at least trying, Ali was acting like a child. Dempsey was so confused that when Barry motioned to him Dempsey tried to move further into the 'nearest neutral corner' but Barry wouldn't buy it and had to turn away from the count and lead Dempsey to the 'furthest neutral corner.'

But again, my point was not the count, but that fighters don't cooperate more often that Kalan is willing to admit.

[SenorPipino]

It was hard to get JC Chavez to stay in the neutral corner after he decked Taylor with seconds remaining.

During Steele's standing 8 count, Chavez came half way across the ring, ready to pounce if the fight resumed.

If Steele had been aware of Chavez' flagrant disregard for the rules, he probably would have turned, ordered the Mexican back to a neutral corner and the bell would have rang.

And considering the scorecards, boxing history would have changed.

[Kalan]

You tend to speak in statements with hard lines drawn; to say that ONLY the referee can count you out just isn't going to work, the anomalies you call Keystone Cop moments will appear.

It is not a non-starter because in my scenario the fallen fighter was hurt but with the extended time, gained back his balance and composure and therefore the fight continued, continued with a fighter who had just been knocked out.

Unprecedented? How does Dempsey fit into this unprecedented picture of Ali's actions?

Subsequently what about Leonard (SRL)? He use to walk about the ring with his hands over his head but refs let him get away with it, and I am sure there are a few more examples

Dempsey was only 4 seconds late in complying with the neutral corner rule... Ali NEVER complied .... THAT'S what I meant by "unprecedented behavior".... And in this case NONE of the officials or commissioners seemed to know the rule.

As for what some air-headed referee let Ray Leonard do... I never saw SRL break the rules so flagrantly.

In your other far fetched scenario, a completely knocked out fighter miraculously revives in the few seconds a count is suspended because his absent-minded opponent was late getting to a neutral corner.... Never happened.... And if it ever DID happen and the knocked out fighter ended up winning -- who's to blame???

And Tunney appeared momentarily dazed, but hardly knocked unconscious... Dempsey's failure to comply immediately with a new rule he wasn't familiar with may have cost him the fight--but that is conjecture... But who would you blame for that??? Dempsey or Tunney??? The same way with your hypothetical case... How often does a stupid penalty cost a Football or Basketball team the game??? It's not the fault of the team who complied with the rules is it???

I never draw ANY hard lines.... The rules draw lines bud... The referee counts you out unless he has a heart attack, is shot dead, or struck by lightning during the count.... The count is SUSPENDED if you refuse to go to a neutral corner... In NO circumstance is the referee allowed to learn from a screaming spectator---who is NOT AN OFFICIAL---that the timekeeper counted you out while the referee was busy trying to push a defiant boxer to a neutral corner....and then go back to the fight (Walcott forget to call time when he wondered off to talk to the screaming spectator) halt the action -- and raise Ali's hand -- for no other reason than a wrong-headed, pro-Ali, anti-Liston, sputtering spectator, ordered him to.

THAT is KEYSTONE KOPS BULLCARP!!!! ....

So my cast iron balls remain intact... Yours have been smacked up your ying yang

[APerno]

You tend to speak in statements with hard lines drawn; to say that ONLY the referee can count you out just isn't going to work, the anomalies you call Keystone Cop moments will appear.

It is not a non-starter because in my scenario the fallen fighter was hurt but with the extended time, gained back his balance and composure and therefore the fight continued, continued with a fighter who had just been knocked out.

Unprecedented? How does Dempsey fit into this unprecedented picture of Ali's actions?

Subsequently what about Leonard (SRL)? He use to walk about the ring with his hands over his head but refs let him get away with it, and I am sure there are a few more examples

Dempsey was only 4 seconds late in complying with the neutral corner rule... Ali NEVER complied .... THAT'S what I meant by "unprecedented behavior".... And in this case NONE of the officials or commissioners seemed to know the rule.

As for what some air-headed referee let Ray Leonard do... I never saw SRL break the rules so flagrantly.

In your other far fetched scenario, a completely knocked out fighter miraculously revives in the few seconds a count is suspended because his absent-minded opponent was late getting to a neutral corner.... Never happened.

And Tunney appeared momentarily dazed, but hardly knocked unconscious... Dempsey's failure to comply immediately with a new rule he wasn't familiar with may have cost him the fight--but that is conjecture... But who would you blame for that??? Dempsey or Tunney??? The same way with your hypothetical case... How often does a stupid penalty cost a Football or Basketball team the game??? It's not the fault of the team who complied with the rules is it???

I never draw ANY hard lines.... The rules draw lines bud... The referee counts you out unless he has a heart attack, is shot dead, or struck by lightning during the count.... The count is SUSPENDED if you refuse to go to a neutral corner... In NO circumstance is the referee allowed to learn from a screaming spectator---who is NOT AN OFFICIAL---that the timekeeper counted you out... and then go back to the fight (Walcott forget to call time when he wondered off to talk to the screaming spectator) halt the action -- and raise Ali's hand -- for no other reason than a wrong-headed, pro-Ali, anti-Liston, sputtering spectator, ordered him to.

THAT is KEYSTONE KOPS BULLCARP!!!! ....

So my cast iron balls remain intact... Yours have been smacked up your ying yang

I don't get a happy new year?

[APerno]

I never draw ANY hard lines.... The rules draw lines bud... The referee counts you out unless he has a heart attack, is shot dead, or struck by lightning during the count....

[Kalan]

Happy New Year APerno.... But you're wrong on this one.