is "quitting" the same as "losing"?

[Guelwaar]

First of all douglas didn't beat tyson...douglas was technically KO'd. so technically, he lost the fight. however, because boxing is a shoddily-run sport, douglas was allowed to continue despite being ko'd and came back in the next round to stop a poorly conditioned tyson.

in my opinion that is a bit of an urban
legend. watch here side by side. the
time is roughly the same, but buster
is able to compete, while mike cannot
even put a mouthpiece in.


round eight buster is dominant, the
commentators cannot believe their
eyes, then mike - from the ropes -
lands an upper cut, buster goes down,
and almost immediately hits the canvas
with his fist, obviously angry about himself,

waits for the nine, gets up and the round
is over. with mike staggering back to his
corner.

next round tyson comes in fast, but douglas
stands his ground and dominates the round,
with mike taking bombs, leaving the round
hurt with one eye totally closed.

one round later tyson is almost static, clearly
hurt, then he's knocked down and even needs
to grab the arm of the ref to get balance while
getting up. in the live comments nobody even
raises even a hint that anything was unfair, neither
that buster got up, nor that mike was counted
out. the biggest upset ever and no one said
"premature stoppage", "long count" or anything
like it.

get over it, mike beating buster is an urban myth,
nothing more.

it's not an urban myth...and to prove it, all you have to do is count the seconds it takes for buster to get up...i counted 13 seconds...many others count 12 seconds. pick up the count at the 4 second mark...and you see that douglas doesnt get to his feet until the count the video is at the 16 second mark. this is a well-documented fact that buster got a long count. yes, tyson was clearly ko'd...but the point is, buster got ko'd FIRST.

[Guelwaar]

Everybody gets the point you are trying to make.
The problem is you simply do not have a valid point.
Boxers only quit when they have an injury or when they are being outclassed.

It happens all the time at the club fighter level...and it's even happened at the championship level. the most recent ones that come to mind are lomachenko-walters and loma-rigo (although rigo claims he had an injury)...how many times have you seen fighters in the ring who simply refuse to engage? or give only a minimal effort?...that's a form of quitting as well.

[jewboypgh]

Quitters like that Jamaican bum Walters should be banned

[man]

it's not an urban myth...and to prove it, all you have to do is count the seconds it takes for buster to get up...i counted 13 seconds...many others count 12 seconds. pick up the count at the 4 second mark...and you see that douglas doesnt get to his feet until the count the video is at the 16 second mark. this is a well-documented fact that buster got a long count. yes, tyson was clearly ko'd...but the point is, buster got ko'd FIRST.

you are wrong on two levels:

1. regarding the rules
buster was up at nine counted by the
ref, which is the only reference point
he has to follow, since it is the ref who
is counting him, not anyone else.

2. regarding real boxing:
buster went down, angry with himself,
busting his fist in the canvas after three
or so. which clear as daylight points to
him being fully aware and capable of
moving. which as well means that he
only stayed down until nine, because
he is a seasoned pro, using every sec.

there is absolutely NO disputing this. in
neither legal neor real boxing sense was
buster douglas koed by mike tyson.

and unless you claim that clip i posted
was doctored, their counts were equal
in length. biggest myth of the all.

[Tony1244]

1. If you try to count 10 against a stop watch, most people will count fast or slow by a few seconds. Its hard to count 10 with perfect precision.

2. As man said, the boxer is only responsible for beating the ref's count.

3. Even with a stop watch, there is a lot of noise and confusion, its hard to be perfect

4. Boxing history has a lot of questionable counts starting with the most famous Tunney-Dempsey 2 "the long count."
Chuvalo-Quarry and Ali-Foreman also had very questionable counts, perhaps not coincidentally with the same referee Zack Clayton.

[Perseus]

Everybody gets the point you are trying to make.
The problem is you simply do not have a valid point.
Boxers only quit when they have an injury or when they are being outclassed.

It happens all the time at the club fighter level...and it's even happened at the championship level. the most recent ones that come to mind are lomachenko-walters and loma-rigo (although rigo claims he had an injury)...how many times have you seen fighters in the ring who simply refuse to engage? or give only a minimal effort?...that's a form of quitting as well.

In your world those two were NOT getting outclassed?

Ok, you're right.
Loma should get no credit for those wins..........................he didn't beat them, they quit

[Ilya Muromets]

is "quitting" the same as "losing"?


Y'know, you could have saved the trouble of this whole big thread by just looking those two words up in the online dictionary!

[Guelwaar]

Everybody gets the point you are trying to make.
The problem is you simply do not have a valid point.
Boxers only quit when they have an injury or when they are being outclassed.

It happens all the time at the club fighter level...and it's even happened at the championship level. the most recent ones that come to mind are lomachenko-walters and loma-rigo (although rigo claims he had an injury)...how many times have you seen fighters in the ring who simply refuse to engage? or give only a minimal effort?...that's a form of quitting as well.

In your world those two were NOT getting outclassed?

Ok, you're right.
Loma should get no credit for those wins..........................he didn't beat them, they quit

"getting outclassed"....clearly you still don't understand the point of this thread.

[Guelwaar]

it's not an urban myth...and to prove it, all you have to do is count the seconds it takes for buster to get up...i counted 13 seconds...many others count 12 seconds. pick up the count at the 4 second mark...and you see that douglas doesnt get to his feet until the count the video is at the 16 second mark. this is a well-documented fact that buster got a long count. yes, tyson was clearly ko'd...but the point is, buster got ko'd FIRST.

you are wrong on two levels:

1. regarding the rules
buster was up at nine counted by the
ref, which is the only reference point
he has to follow, since it is the ref who
is counting him, not anyone else.

2. regarding real boxing:
buster went down, angry with himself,
busting his fist in the canvas after three
or so. which clear as daylight points to
him being fully aware and capable of
moving. which as well means that he
only stayed down until nine, because
he is a seasoned pro, using every sec.

there is absolutely NO disputing this. in
neither legal neor real boxing sense was
buster douglas koed by mike tyson.

and unless you claim that clip i posted
was doctored, their counts were equal
in length. biggest myth of the all.

so, you admit that buster was actually lying on the canvas for more than 10 seconds....which technically amounts to a KO loss. Good. so long as we have no disagreement there....after all the evidence is right before your eyes.

now, the second thing was, the officials, including the timekeeper and the ref both admitted they gave douglas a long count...so, that's TWO officials who are the closest to the action who admit that douglas was, in fact, ko'd and tyson should have gotten the win.

what i'm saying is it really doesn't matter what you think was going on in buster's head or how hurt you think he was or wasn't. that's completely immaterial to the facts of what happened and it's not what determined the outcome of this fight....it was sheer negligence and incompetence.

the problem was, tyson and king were not well-liked by the boxing commissions and even though WBA, WBC and IBF all saw that it was in fact an estimated FOURTEEN SECONDS that douglas was on the deck, they were only too happy to look past the incontrovertible evidence and rule against the hated duo of tyson and king....boxing politics and all that nonsense instead of just doing their damn job.

however, the fact remains, that it's NOT tyson's responsibility to officiate....its not his fault the ref screwed up....so, if the ref made an error, as is often the case in boxing, the commission owed it to the fighter to look at the evidence and rule in a fair, objective way consistent with the regulations that govern the sport. the fact they chose not to, only demonstrates that boxing is a raggedy sport run by unprincipled people who don't give a sh*t.

but that's the way it was ruled....so, that's what is in the record books...i'm just saying the the REALITY of what happened is not what is recorded in history.

[man]

so, you admit that buster was actually lying on the canvas for more than 10 seconds....which technically amounts to a KO loss. Good. so long as we have no disagreement there....after all the evidence is right before your eyes.

now, the second thing was, the officials, including the timekeeper and the ref both admitted they gave douglas a long count...so, that's TWO officials who are the closest to the action who admit that douglas was, in fact, ko'd and tyson should have gotten the win.

what i'm saying is it really doesn't matter what you think was going on in buster's head or how hurt you think he was or wasn't. that's completely immaterial to the facts of what happened and it's not what determined the outcome of this fight....it was sheer negligence and incompetence.

"technically" the count of the ref is what
"amounts for a KO loss", not beating ten
seconds. refs have been counting not precisely
ten seconds in millions of fights. tyson was treated
the exact same way as his opponent in this fight.
buster was clear, mike was not.

for any reasonable, unbiased person, these are
undeniable facts. but your opinion does not seem
to be bothered by any of these arguments, so i
propose we leave it like that.

[Guelwaar]

so, you admit that buster was actually lying on the canvas for more than 10 seconds....which technically amounts to a KO loss. Good. so long as we have no disagreement there....after all the evidence is right before your eyes.

now, the second thing was, the officials, including the timekeeper and the ref both admitted they gave douglas a long count...so, that's TWO officials who are the closest to the action who admit that douglas was, in fact, ko'd and tyson should have gotten the win.

what i'm saying is it really doesn't matter what you think was going on in buster's head or how hurt you think he was or wasn't. that's completely immaterial to the facts of what happened and it's not what determined the outcome of this fight....it was sheer negligence and incompetence.

"technically" not beating the count of the ref
"amounts for a KO loss", not beating ten
seconds. refs have been counting not precisely
ten seconds in millions of fights. tyson was treated
the exact same way as his opponent in this fight.
buster was clear, mike was not.

for any reasonable, unbiased person, these are
undeniable facts. but your opinion does not seem
to be bothered by any of these arguments, so i
propose we leave it like that.

So, you're saying "it's OK if buster got a long count because it happens all the time in boxing." Based on that argument, we might as well throw away the rule book...I mean, according to you, if i'm a ref and i favor a certain fighter, i can give him THIRTY seconds to recover from a knockdown if i count slow enough and in your view, that's perfectly fine.

There's reasons why dempsey-tunney was controversial and why tyson-douglas was controversial...it's because fighters careers get hurt. there's a lot at stake. a ref who takes FOURTEEN seconds to count to NINE is clearly incompetent. That's why they have a TIMEKEEPER....the timekeeper keeps count and the ref is there to give the fighter the count so the fighter knows what's going on at that particular moment. So, in this case, BOTH the ref and the timekeeper admitted they gave buster a long count. Why should Tyson suffer for their incompetence?

at the very least, the commissions could have called it a technical draw or no-contest. Assuming the commission agreed with you that buster didn't look hurt and that he was giving himself til the count of 9 to get to his feet so he had more time to recover, the commission should have weighed that against the fact that buster was on the deck for somewhere between 12 and 14 seconds which technically constitutes a KO....if they couldn't come to a satisfactory adjudication, they should have declared the fight a no-contest or no-decision or something that didn't penalize either fighter...but to take the title from tyson when the rules are based on technicalities and technically buster was KO'd, was a miscarriage of justice plain and simple.

but like i said, the fight goes down as a win for buster, and it was many years ago...so, no point in debating it further. the thing about the way the commission handled this situation, though, is one of the many things that show how dysfunctional a sport boxing is, and explains why boxing in america has been losing fans by the droves for many years...believe me, controversies like douglas-tyson leave a bitter taste with viewers because of the inherent unfairness and bias...it paints boxing as a low-class, crappy sport...i tell people how much i enjoy boxing and many times they'll say they can't figure out what the hell is going on in the sport and it's too corrupt.

[man]

So, you're saying "it's OK if buster got a long count because it happens all the time in boxing."

i believe neither event deserves the
attention it got and certainly neither
is proof of how corrupt boxing is.

boxing referees are humans and once
they picked the count from the time
keeper their own speed is what ... counts.
it is outright ridiculous to assume that
they count perfect ten seconds and
everything else is a big foul.

and especially in these two cases
where the knocked down boxer is
clear and easily beats the count of the
ref i really don't see the big thing. buster
douglas didn't win because of the ref,
but because he was the better man
that night. tunney won because he
knew how to box a puncher.

[SenorPipino]

It's an unwritten rule that a 10 count in no way has to equal 10 seconds.

It might be 8 seconds. It might be 14 seconds.

Douglas only listened to the refs count. That was his only gauge.

Revisionists here have no clue as to whether Douglas could have risen earlier if the referee gave a quicker count.

Buster listened to the ref and he rose before the count of 10, whether that 10 count was 10 seconds or longer.

That's all he was required to do.

If the ref didn't reach 10, how in the world did Douglas get KO'd?

It doesn't make sense.

[Guelwaar]

It's an unwritten rule that a 10 count in no way has to equal 10 seconds.

It might be 8 seconds. It might be 14 seconds.

Douglas only listened to the refs count. That was his only gauge.

Revisionists here have no clue as to whether Douglas could have risen earlier if the referee gave a quicker count.

Buster listened to the ref and he rose before the count of 10, whether that 10 count was 10 seconds or longer.

That's all he was required to do.

If the ref didn't reach 10, how in the world did Douglas get KO'd?

It doesn't make sense.

what doesn't make sense is to have rules if you're not even interested in enforcing them...boxing has rules and the intention should always be to enforce them to the letter, or else all you have is an illegitimate sport....in this case, the problem of estimating the count which may be an over or under-estimate due to human error is easily solved by two things: first, the presence of a timekeeper at ringside. the timekeeper is the one who actually gives the count because he has a watch which is counting down each second as precisely as clockwork...the ref takes his cue from the timekeeper and simply gives the count to the fighter.

the second thing is the ref himself: this is why experienced refs are brought in to title fights because they're seasoned professionals who understand to take the cue from the timekeeper...and an experienced ref is less likely to lose the count or be confused by the excitement around him.

in this case, both the timekeeper and the ref failed....they both even admitted that they failed. in that case, the commission should say "the ref and timekeeper failed to do their jobs right, therefore the commission must review and make sure justice is done." at that point they have all the evidence they need to make the right decision...and the decision they should have arrived at, given the data they have, is that douglas was on the deck for more than 10 seconds which constitutes a KO loss...simple logic.

if you're gonna say "why should buster suffer because the ref didn't do his job?" same should apply to tyson...the commission should have/could have simply then declared the fight a NC. that would have voided the result and they could hold a rematch and determine the outcome on different occasion.

[SenorPipino]

Cutting to the chase, I'll say it again.

A 10 count isn't the same as 10 seconds.

A fighter simply follows the referee's count. He doesn't worry about whether 10 seconds have passed or not.

[jamamb]

One of the worst quits I've ever seen was when Vitali Klitschko quit like a dog against Chris Byrd.

VK was comfortably ahead on points (88-83, 89-82, 88-83) when he quit after the 9th round. Byrd had stepped into this fight as a late replacement and only had 7-10 days to prepare. He also accepted the fight in VK's adopted homeland, Germany. A non-puncher with a career KO rate of less than 50%, Byrd presented little threat to the iron-chinned VK for the remaining 9 minutes of the fight but VK downed tools and quit anyway.

Now, to us mere mortals, a torn rotator cuff would certainly derail us from an athletic event but in the hurt business, many fighters have continued fighting with this injury and worse. Modern examples of fighters continuing with shoulder injuries include Manny Pacquiao, Danny Williams and Bernard Hopkins, not to mention the countless boxers who have fought on with broken hands, jaws and noses.

Larry Merchant's famous quote of "Vitali Klitschko has no balls" and his nickname Vitali Quitschko will remain on his legacy forever and are part of the reason that VK will only ever be remembered in boxing history as a second tier heavyweight. That plus the fact that he got badly cut and stopped in his only fight against an elite heavyweight, Lennox Lewis.

agree it was a big quit but youre totally wrong about the legacy. hes one of the most overrated fighters in years and just got first ballot voted into the hall of fame ffs. i mean ppl talk him up like a top 10 atg heavyweight just for winning some rounds vs lewis. he also got hyped up as somehow being the 'real' winner of that fight and it was depicted like lennox ran from the rematch

the bird fights forgotten by most and not his legacy at all, though it may rightfully be to you. hes generally held in high praise for winning some rounds vs lewis and feather fisting a bunch of cans into submission.

very very overrated fighter.

[jamamb]

i dont think to most the bryd fight is really considered much though. so many ppl totally ignore it or act like it doesnt matter because he was way ahead and wouldve anyway, or because he showed heart vs lewis, in a fight where apparently he was the 'real' winner

[littlepug]

First of all douglas didn't beat tyson...douglas was technically KO'd. so technically, he lost the fight. however, because boxing is a shoddily-run sport, douglas was allowed to continue despite being ko'd and came back in the next round to stop a poorly conditioned tyson.

in my opinion that is a bit of an urban
legend. watch here side by side. the
time is roughly the same, but buster
is able to compete, while mike cannot
even put a mouthpiece in.


round eight buster is dominant, the
commentators cannot believe their
eyes, then mike - from the ropes -
lands an upper cut, buster goes down,
and almost immediately hits the canvas
with his fist, obviously angry about himself,

waits for the nine, gets up and the round
is over. with mike staggering back to his
corner.

next round tyson comes in fast, but douglas
stands his ground and dominates the round,
with mike taking bombs, leaving the round
hurt with one eye totally closed.

one round later tyson is almost static, clearly
hurt, then he's knocked down and even needs
to grab the arm of the ref to get balance while
getting up. in the live comments nobody even
raises even a hint that anything was unfair, neither
that buster got up, nor that mike was counted
out. the biggest upset ever and no one said
"premature stoppage", "long count" or anything
like it.

get over it, mike beating buster is an urban myth,
nothing more.

it's not an urban myth...and to prove it, all you have to do is count the seconds it takes for buster to get up...i counted 13 seconds...many others count 12 seconds. pick up the count at the 4 second mark...and you see that douglas doesnt get to his feet until the count the video is at the 16 second mark. this is a well-documented fact that buster got a long count. yes, tyson was clearly ko'd...but the point is, buster got ko'd FIRST.

Its a count of ten from the ref that the boxer has to beat, not a clock counting ten seconds, how many refs can actually count out 10 seconds bang on with everything else going on around them ? Buster was following the count from the ref and he just beat it.

[Kalan]

One of the worst quits I've ever seen was when Vitali Klitschko quit like a dog against Chris Byrd.

VK was comfortably ahead on points (88-83, 89-82, 88-83) when he quit after the 9th round. Byrd had stepped into this fight as a late replacement and only had 7-10 days to prepare. He also accepted the fight in VK's adopted homeland, Germany. A non-puncher with a career KO rate of less than 50%, Byrd presented little threat to the iron-chinned VK for the remaining 9 minutes of the fight but VK downed tools and quit anyway.

Now, to us mere mortals, a torn rotator cuff would certainly derail us from an athletic event but in the hurt business, many fighters have continued fighting with this injury and worse. Modern examples of fighters continuing with shoulder injuries include Manny Pacquiao, Danny Williams and Bernard Hopkins, not to mention the countless boxers who have fought on with broken hands, jaws and noses.

Larry Merchant's famous quote of "Vitali Klitschko has no balls" and his nickname Vitali Quitschko will remain on his legacy forever and are part of the reason that VK will only ever be remembered in boxing history as a second tier heavyweight. That plus the fact that he got badly cut and stopped in his only fight against an elite heavyweight, Lennox Lewis.

Vitali Klitschko opponents and results

Corrie Sanders... 39-2... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round stoppage
Herbie Hide... 31-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... KO 2
Sam Peter... 30-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round stoppage at age 37 after 4-year layoff
Tomasz Adamak... 44-1... 2-Division World Champion and never stopped before. KO 10 at age 40
Juan Carlos Gomez... 44-1... Former World Cruiserweight Champion. KO 9
Odlanier Solis...17-0 undefeated Olympic Gold Medal winner. 1st round KO
Manuel Charr... 21-0 undefeated top ranked contender. Stoppage on cut in 4 rounds
Kevin Johnson... 22-0-1 undefeated top ranked contender. Swept every round on 2 cards
Chris Arreola... 27-0 undefeated top ranked contender. 10 round stoppage
Kirk Johnson... 34-1-1... Only previous loss was a ticky-tac DQ… 2 round KO
Timo Hoffman... 22-0... Bigger and taller than Vitali... Swept every round in 2 cards
Ed Mahone... 21-0-2... Undefeated contender... KO 3
Shannon Briggs, 51-5-1... 2-time Heavyweight Champion. Swept every round of UD
Chris Byrd, 30-1... Winning easily on all scorecards when forced to retire due to a completely severed rotator cuff assembly. He entered the ring with a slight tear, thinking he could fight through it, but it soon got a lot worse and eventually severed Vitali retired after the 9th.
Lennox Lewis, 40-2-1... VK was winning on all scorecards when it was stopped on cuts on his left eyelid caused by foul blows... If they went to the scorecards Vitali wins Unanimous TD 6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

The above video shows a very clear view of one of the many fouls Lewis committed versus Vitali Klitschko.... You do NOT aim with your thumb, flip down in a slapping motion with your forearm, and twist and rotate your wrist on contact - unless you're throwing a thumb strike... You throw a straight right behind the shoulder.

The above video also clearly shows Lewis grabbing Vitali's head illegally and rubbing his head and hair into the wound.

[jamamb]

vitali was a trash man who took out a bunch of garbage

[Guelwaar]

in my opinion that is a bit of an urban
legend. watch here side by side. the
time is roughly the same, but buster
is able to compete, while mike cannot
even put a mouthpiece in.


round eight buster is dominant, the
commentators cannot believe their
eyes, then mike - from the ropes -
lands an upper cut, buster goes down,
and almost immediately hits the canvas
with his fist, obviously angry about himself,

waits for the nine, gets up and the round
is over. with mike staggering back to his
corner.

next round tyson comes in fast, but douglas
stands his ground and dominates the round,
with mike taking bombs, leaving the round
hurt with one eye totally closed.

one round later tyson is almost static, clearly
hurt, then he's knocked down and even needs
to grab the arm of the ref to get balance while
getting up. in the live comments nobody even
raises even a hint that anything was unfair, neither
that buster got up, nor that mike was counted
out. the biggest upset ever and no one said
"premature stoppage", "long count" or anything
like it.

get over it, mike beating buster is an urban myth,
nothing more.

it's not an urban myth...and to prove it, all you have to do is count the seconds it takes for buster to get up...i counted 13 seconds...many others count 12 seconds. pick up the count at the 4 second mark...and you see that douglas doesnt get to his feet until the count the video is at the 16 second mark. this is a well-documented fact that buster got a long count. yes, tyson was clearly ko'd...but the point is, buster got ko'd FIRST.

Its a count of ten from the ref that the boxer has to beat, not a clock counting ten seconds, how many refs can actually count out 10 seconds bang on with everything else going on around them ? Buster was following the count from the ref and he just beat it.

sure....and it's OK in your book if it takes the ref 20 seconds to count ten, right?....because how can we expect them to keep the correct count with everything going on around them, even with a time-keeper to prompt them and with years of experience refereeing hw title fights which is part of the reason they were selected to referee the fight instead of joe blow, right?...sure, you have no problem with that until it goes against a fighter you root for.

[Guelwaar]

Cutting to the chase, I'll say it again.

A 10 count isn't the same as 10 seconds.

i don't think you get the concept of a "timekeeper."

[littlepug]

it's not an urban myth...and to prove it, all you have to do is count the seconds it takes for buster to get up...i counted 13 seconds...many others count 12 seconds. pick up the count at the 4 second mark...and you see that douglas doesnt get to his feet until the count the video is at the 16 second mark. this is a well-documented fact that buster got a long count. yes, tyson was clearly ko'd...but the point is, buster got ko'd FIRST.

Its a count of ten from the ref that the boxer has to beat, not a clock counting ten seconds, how many refs can actually count out 10 seconds bang on with everything else going on around them ? Buster was following the count from the ref and he just beat it.

sure....and it's OK in your book if it takes the ref 20 seconds to count ten, right?....because how can we expect them to keep the correct count with everything going on around them, even with a time-keeper to prompt them and with years of experience refereeing hw title fights which is part of the reason they were selected to referee the fight instead of joe blow, right?...sure, you have no problem with that until it goes against a fighter you root for.

Ive no problem with it mate, no ref will count out ten seconds bang on even with a timekeepers help, theres simply too much going on, ive understood this from day one and am fine with it, if it goes against a guy that i like then so be it, boxing is sometimes unfair just like life.

[man]

Now, to us mere mortals, a torn rotator cuff would certainly derail us from an athletic event but in the hurt business, many fighters have continued fighting with this injury and worse.

i find it outright disgusting if fans
sit on their couch and demand a
fighter to continue although he is
injured.

just ... disgusting.

[man]

what doesn't make sense is to have rules if you're not even interested in enforcing them...boxing has rules and the intention should always be to enforce them ...

boxing has rules and they were
followed to the letter in this bout.

there is one problematic count
in heavy weight title fights and
that was foreman being ruled a
KO in zaire, despite him beating
the count at the very end of the
round.