Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Jan 2018, 22:18
You really want to play the size game?
Louis KO 1 vs Abe Simon. Simon was 6'4 250
Louis KO 1 vs Buddy Baer. Baer was 6'6 255
Louis TKO 6 Primo Carnera. Carnera was 6'6 260.
Louis was stopped once in his prime. His chin was every bit as good as Tyson's. He would be landing on Louis as often as Holyfield and Douglas did but with more power. His defense was much better than Douglas and Holyfield.
In their primes a good little fighter beats a bad big fighter more often than not. Those three wouldn't have lasted a round with Tyson. Louis' chin wasn't as good as Tyson, Tyson wasn't dropped by little guys like Louis was.
Conn was said to weigh 169lb when he fought Louis and he was ahead after 12 rounds. Can you imagine someone weighing 169lbs lasting 12 seconds with Tyson, let alone 12 rounds. Lets be realistic here.
Controversial wrote: ↑06 Jan 2018, 09:06
How would the 169lb Conn do against a 220lb Tyson?
Going by how good he looked early on vs Louis, he’d last into the mid -late rounds vs Tyson, making him look a bit clumsy in the process. Tyson would get to him eventually. Conn fought out of his skin against Louis.
golden oldie wrote: ↑06 Jan 2018, 08:58
1. Did Ruiz outweigh Jones by 30 + lbs, yes or no?
2. Did Jones win on points?
3. Was Ruiz able to hit Jones on the chin, and knock him spark out?
4. Did Louis outweigh Conn by 26 lbs?
5. Was Louis able to hit Conn and knock him spark out?
6. Did Louis IN FACT hit Conn on the chin and knock him spark out?
There are always exceptions. Ruiz wasn't a great fighter to start with, he was no Tyson. He started off weighing 184lb, he wasn't a big HW and was only really effective against guys who stood and traded with him. RJJ was onto a winner fighting him, he certainly didn't stick around to fight any other HWs. Pretty much like Foreman who refused to fight Lewis and Bellew who has said he wants no part of AJ as he is too big, they pick and choose the easiest fights for them.
Controversial wrote: ↑06 Jan 2018, 09:06
How would the 169lb Conn do against a 220lb Tyson?
Going by how good he looked early on vs Louis, he’d last into the mid -late rounds vs Tyson, making him look a bit clumsy in the process. Tyson would get to him eventually. Conn fought out of his skin against Louis.
A fighter who started as a lightweight, with no punch, weighing 12 stone takes a prime 220lb Tyson 6+ rounds. Wow I've really heard it all now.
Controversial wrote: ↑06 Jan 2018, 09:06
How would the 169lb Conn do against a 220lb Tyson?
Going by how good he looked early on vs Louis, he’d last into the mid -late rounds vs Tyson, making him look a bit clumsy in the process. Tyson would get to him eventually. Conn fought out of his skin against Louis.
A fighter who started as a lightweight, with no punch, weighing 12 stone takes a prime 220lb Tyson 6+ rounds. Wow I've really heard it all now.
Going by how good he looked early on vs Louis, he’d last into the mid -late rounds vs Tyson, making him look a bit clumsy in the process. Tyson would get to him eventually. Conn fought out of his skin against Louis.
A fighter who started as a lightweight, with no punch, weighing 12 stone takes a prime 220lb Tyson 6+ rounds. Wow I've really heard it all now.
How did he manage it vs a 200lb Louis?
Styles makes fights. Tyson would walk through him, he wouldn't have the power to hurt him or the physical strength to tie him up or manhandle him. The first big punch Tyson hits him with it would all be over.
MrGuy wrote: ↑06 Jan 2018, 00:33
Tyson was bigger hitter and faster. Only advantage? We aren't playing the if he was born today game. Tyson hits him once and his goes flying across the pond.
If you believe Tyson hit harder or faster that Joe Louis you must live in a cuckoo clock. And as for accuracy tyson could only dream of being as good as Joe. Perhaps you can help out the other fantasist ( Kolon ) and show us a clip of Louis throwing a punch and missing so badly he falls on his hands and knees like the other idiot did against a plum like Stewart. Just as well it was only him and not Joe Louis in the other corner.
Oh I forgot, according to you fanboys Tyson's prime ended when he got trashed by Douglas. LMFAO.
We know Ruiz wasn't a great fighter, but what he weighed as a 20 year old has no bearing on what he weighed 11 years later. From 96 onwards he never weighed less than 220.
The point was Ruiz lacked the ability to hit Jones and knock him spark out, Joe Louis would have KO'd Jones as easily as he KO'd Conn, because he was one of the best, if not the best punchers ever.
It is both moronic and childish to claim in order to be a worthy winner a fighter has to be ahead on all cards when he stops the other guy, or score a complete shutout if it goes the distance, as some Tyson fanboys on here are claiming. Do we claim his win over Botha doesn't really count because he was behind on all the cards when he sparked the guy in the 5th?
Of course not because to do so would be fukking stupid. Just it is stupid to claim Louis was " lucky " to knock Conn the fuk out.
I never said Louis was lucky, it was a sign of the times that HWs in that era fought small guys. Louis was a great fighter, no doubt, but it shouldn't be forgotten he built his record against many small guys. It was common for LHWs to fight HWs, often they didn't even bother bulking up because there was no CW division and you were a HW over 175lb. Can you imagine a 169lb fighter challenging AJ, maybe Billy Joe Saunders? It just wouldn't happen because times have moved on. Love him or hate him Tyson was a fantastic puncher, he was two handed, fast and had KO power in either fist. Guys like Conn and Louis couldn't take that kinda power, they were just too small.
Styles makes fights. Tyson would walk through him, he wouldn't have the power to hurt him or the physical strength to tie him up or manhandle him. The first big punch Tyson hits him with it would all be over.
Do you mean like it was all over when Joe hit him with the first big punch? Funnily enough he also KO'd another guy who started out at S / Middle in Walcott.
Louis had a great record because he fought guys like Conn, blown up LHWs. His power doesn't compare to Tyson. More accurate yes, more powerful no. If he had Tysons power he would've flattened Conn.
Of all the great heavyweight boxers that could beat the great as Mike Tyson in his prime would be in my book:
Evander Holyfield...He just had the way to beat him. He knew how to beat him. The question is, would Evander beat him when he was in his prime before the Michael Spinks fight and with trainer Kevin Rooney?
Muhammad Ali: Ali's speed, especially in circa 1965-67 probably would give Iron Mike too much fits. Tyson would probably be frustrated by The Greatest's speed. Tyson got a better chance with the Ali post the Fight of the Century. And still, I give Ali the advantage. Ali of the Rumble in the Jungle fight also beats Tyson in my view. I think Ali's pscycological approach would be key.
Joe Frazier: It would be a toss up. We all know who got more heart, will and determination. We all know who was more relentless as the fight progresses. Tyson only advantage over Smokin' Joe would be punching power. In which he gotta tag Frazier early. If not, it would be all over. Frazier had better inside fighting skills. And if it were the Frazier of TFOC with Ali, forget it! Tyson doesn't beat that guy.
George Foreman: Another toss up. If they fight 10 times, in my book, they split it 5-5. Just because Big George destroyed Smokin' Joe Frazier twice does not mean he would do the same with Tyson. Plus, in my view, Frazier WAS DONE after the first Ali fight. Foreman could be easy to hit. Tyson's speed could find his jaw easier than anybody. Foreman edges Tyson in height, reach, strength, and maybe punching power. Tyson edges Foreman in speed and accuracy. Speed kills.
Larry Holmes: Holmes' jab was the best jab in the history of the heavyweights. His ring IQ was not only heavyweights', but pound per pound boxing's best. He will move from side to side, give Tyson angles, and not be a clean target to hit. They fight 10 times, Holmes wins 9-1. Why? Because Holmes was way smarter than Iron Mike.
Buster Douglas: If he trains the same way he did in that historical upset, he just doesn't beat Tyson alone, but any other heavyweight in history. He had the classic tools for a heavyweight: He was big, strong inside, good jab, speed, great weight range (230-235lbs), height and reach. He was the complete package if he trained properly. If not trained properly, he was lazy and fat, with no ambition to fight. In the night with Tyson, who beats him? Maybe the Ali of the 60s? Holmes of the 80s? Smokin'Joe of FOTC? It gotta be somebody special. It definitely won't be The real Deal, Iron Mike, Riddick Bowe, Lennox Lewis nor Joe Louis. They got lots of deficiencies to beat that guy in Tokyo at his complete best.
Riddick Bowe: I think he got the tools to beat Mike Tyson, especially on the inside game. He could take Iron Mike's best shots, fighting toe to toe with him and he will not go down. He was 6'5" and about 240lbs at his very best. The Bowe that beat the great Evander Holyfield in the first fight, was terrific. I have never seen a BIG HEAVYWEIGHT of that size be that good, especially on the inside. He took Holyfield's best shots and gave Holyfield some tremendous uppercuts. I don't think that Tyson could take those shots. Not for too long. This guy beats Tyson 10 out of 10 times. That if, if, A BIG IF, Bowe comes prepared like he did with Holyfield the first time.
Controversial wrote: ↑06 Jan 2018, 12:43
I never said Louis was lucky, it was a sign of the times that HWs in that era fought small guys. Louis was a great fighter, no doubt, but it shouldn't be forgotten he built his record against many small guys. It was common for LHWs to fight HWs, often they didn't even bother bulking up because there was no CW division and you were a HW over 175lb. Can you imagine a 169lb fighter challenging AJ, maybe Billy Joe Saunders? It just wouldn't happen because times have moved on. Love him or hate him Tyson was a fantastic puncher, he was two handed, fast and had KO power in either fist. Guys like Conn and Louis couldn't take that kinda power, they were just too small.
That simply doesn't make sense. Louis was taller than Tyson, with a bigger wingspan. The pro Tyson argument is he was too big and powerful for Louis in his prime. According to his fanboys his prime was up to and including Spinks. His weight then was 215 - 220. Louis' prime was from 1937, until 1948, his average weight then was 200 - 205. Thats far from an insurmountable problem. Louis was without doubt a faster, two handed and more importantly accurate combination puncher than Tyson. It is not what tyson would be doing to Joe Louis that is the issue here, rather it is what Joe would be doing to him.
Tyson has antecedents for capitulating mentally under pressure, Louis doesn't.
No its not insurmountable but Louis' power is mainly based on its affect on smaller guys. Tysons power is mainly based on the affects of hitting bigger guys. If they swapped opponents. and Louis fought Tysons opponents and vice versa. I'd fancy Tyson to fair better. Could you seriously see someone like the 5'7" 200lb Tony Musto going 9 rounds with Tyson? Or a 169lb Conn going 13 rounds with Tyson? These were in Louis' peak years. I'm not taking anything away from Louis either, he was great but it needs to be put in context. If Louis was such a devastating puncher he shouldn't have struggled to put some of these little guys away a lot quicker than he did.
golden oldie wrote: ↑06 Jan 2018, 00:03
Unless you are either retarded or Murican, or both, the answer to the above will be YES. So what the fuk is your point about weight differences?
Weight isn't as important for heavyweights once you get to a certain point genius. 210-220 pounders have routinely beat fighters that far outweigh them over the years. The other weight classes its far more important. Would you put the best welters in a tournament against the best light heavies? Of course not because they would get crushed. Conn was far to light to fight Louis and almost beat him. Thats the point. He wasn't a heavyweight then or now.
Again I have less than zero interest in your opinions, just the facts.
1. Did Ruiz outweigh Jones by 30 + lbs, yes or no?
2. Did Jones win on points?
3. Was Ruiz able to hit Jones on the chin, and knock him spark out?
4. Did Louis outweigh Conn by 26 lbs?
5. Was Louis able to hit Conn and knock him spark out?
6. Did Louis IN FACT hit Conn on the chin and knock him spark out?
As stated your opinions mean less than nothing as far as I am concerned, but the above 6 questions shouldn't be too difficult even for you to answer.
Did you miss the part where Jones actually made the heavyweight limit for his run, and Conn didnt? Or perhaps the part where a small heavyweight is capable of beating a larger one? Nobody ever said a smaller heavyweight could never beat a larger one.
Styles makes fights. Tyson would walk through him, he wouldn't have the power to hurt him or the physical strength to tie him up or manhandle him. The first big punch Tyson hits him with it would all be over.
Do you mean like it was all over when Joe hit him with the first big punch? Funnily enough he also KO'd another guy who started out at S / Middle in Walcott.
Didn't Walcott outweigh him on fight night? Ramble on about Ruiz. Jones gained significant weight for him. Conn didn't gain an ounce for Louis.
Again I have less than zero interest in your opinions, just the facts.
1. Did Ruiz outweigh Jones by 30 + lbs, yes or no?
2. Did Jones win on points?
3. Was Ruiz able to hit Jones on the chin, and knock him spark out?
4. Did Louis outweigh Conn by 26 lbs?
5. Was Louis able to hit Conn and knock him spark out?
6. Did Louis IN FACT hit Conn on the chin and knock him spark out?
As stated your opinions mean less than nothing as far as I am concerned, but the above 6 questions shouldn't be too difficult even for you to answer.
Did you miss the part where Jones actually made the heavyweight limit for his run, and Conn didnt? Or perhaps the part where a small heavyweight is capable of beating a larger one? Nobody ever said a smaller heavyweight could never beat a larger one.
The questions obviously were too difficult for you I see. I have about as much interest in when the Cruiserweight limit went up from 190 to 200, as I have in your opinions. Suffice to say Jones weighed in at 193, which was 33 lbs less than Ruiz. Unlike Ruiz Louis has the power, and skills in abundance to KO Jones, and with that shite chin, probably a lot quicker than he KO'd Billy Conn, seeing as Joe was in fact the first and ONLY guy to knock Conn out, despite plenty of other Heavyweights trying their luck.
Did you miss the point that many smaller heavyweights have beaten larger ones? Conn wasn't. Outside of Louis his fights with 200 pound guys, were against bums. Important for you to make this out to be something it isn't. Because taken as is, Louis couldn't compete in the modern era. Jones was 25 pounds of solid muscle heavier fighting a bum, while Conn was fighting the best heavyweight of his time.
golden oldie wrote: ↑06 Jan 2018, 13:54
You really don't want to go down the road of how Louis got on against significantly bigger, heavier guys, compared to Tyson. He gets Ruddock, Lewis, Williams, McBride, and Douglas all stopped him, not to mention the lighter Holyfield.
Louis on the other hand stopped Carnera, Galento, Baer, and Simon all of whom were far heavier than him, at least 30 lbs in fact.
Ruddock never stopped Tyson, Tyson beat him twice. in fact I'd like to see what some of those punches from Ruddock would've done to Louis.
Williams and McBride can be discounted, just as Louis losing to Marciano, neither were anywhere near their best. Carnera, Galento and Simon were not in the same league as Lewis or Holyfield, not by a million miles.
golden oldie wrote: ↑06 Jan 2018, 13:54
You really don't want to go down the road of how Louis got on against significantly bigger, heavier guys, compared to Tyson. He gets Ruddock, Lewis, Williams, McBride, and Douglas all stopped him, not to mention the lighter Holyfield.
Louis on the other hand stopped Carnera, Galento, Baer, and Simon all of whom were far heavier than him, at least 30 lbs in fact.
Ruddock never stopped Tyson, Tyson beat him twice. in fact I'd like to see what some of those punches from Ruddock would've done to Louis.
Williams and McBride can be discounted, just as Louis losing to Marciano, neither were anywhere near their best. Carnera, Galento and Simon were not in the same league as Lewis or Holyfield, not by a million miles.
Some have the steroid version of Mike Spinks as Tyson’s Best win.
MrGuy wrote: ↑06 Jan 2018, 14:24
Louis couldn't compete in the modern era. Jones was 25 pounds of solid muscle heavier fighting a bum, while Conn was fighting the best heavyweight of his time
The above is true.... Louis probably wouldn't try for the Lineal Heavyweight Title today..... He would be matched with Oleksandr Usyk.... Conn fared well v Louis because of the lack of competition -- Louis wasn't ready for a good fast boxer.... Most Heavyweights of Louis's era were cloddish.... Louis sometimes fought 6 or 7 "Bum of the Month" types a year.
There were 3 main reasons for this:
1. Competition was severely limited worldwide. The United States dominated Professional Boxing with very few international Heavyweights of any stature or ability arriving until well after 1990....
2. the world population was a 4th of what it is today in the 1930's -- so talent was scarce -- even if Boxing's popularity had exploded worldwide like it has since 1990 when the Iron Curtain fell.... That opened the gates for Boxing to develop as a professional sport in Eastern Europe... Plus the United Kingdom has developed more great Heavyweights since 1990 (World Champions: Lewis, Haye, and Joshua) than they developed during the first 90 years of the 20th Century.
3. The Color Line was seldom broken.... Major professional sports leagues effectively banned black men.... Louis was the first black man to get a Heavyweight Title shot in decades.... Black Heavyweight Challengers were as rare as hens' teeth in Louis's prime. The opportunity wasn't there for them.... Mike Tyson fought 16 Heavyweight Championship Fights -- all 16 of those opponents were black men.... Prior to serving in World War 2, a prime Louis fought 22 Heavyweight Championship Fights.... 21 of those opponents were white men.... The lone black man was sick 180-pound Light Heavyweight, John Henry Lewis, fighting the last fight of his life. He could no longer pass the medical tests for Boxing so he retired.
golden oldie wrote: ↑06 Jan 2018, 13:54
You really don't want to go down the road of how Louis got on against significantly bigger, heavier guys, compared to Tyson. He gets Ruddock, Lewis, Williams, McBride, and Douglas all stopped him, not to mention the lighter Holyfield.
Louis on the other hand stopped Carnera, Galento, Baer, and Simon all of whom were far heavier than him, at least 30 lbs in fact.
Ruddock never stopped Tyson, Tyson beat him twice. in fact I'd like to see what some of those punches from Ruddock would've done to Louis.
Williams and McBride can be discounted, just as Louis losing to Marciano, neither were anywhere near their best. Carnera, Galento and Simon were not in the same league as Lewis or Holyfield, not by a million miles.
Some have the steroid version of Mike Spinks as Tyson’s Best win.
And look how he crushed him, and to think some experts were tipping Spinks to win
Controversial wrote: ↑06 Jan 2018, 12:43
I never said Louis was lucky, it was a sign of the times that HWs in that era fought small guys. Louis was a great fighter, no doubt, but it shouldn't be forgotten he built his record against many small guys. It was common for LHWs to fight HWs, often they didn't even bother bulking up because there was no CW division and you were a HW over 175lb. Can you imagine a 169lb fighter challenging AJ, maybe Billy Joe Saunders? It just wouldn't happen because times have moved on. Love him or hate him Tyson was a fantastic puncher, he was two handed, fast and had KO power in either fist. Guys like Conn and Louis couldn't take that kinda power, they were just too small.
That simply doesn't make sense. Louis was taller than Tyson, with a bigger wingspan. The pro Tyson argument is he was too big and powerful for Louis in his prime. According to his fanboys his prime was up to and including Spinks. His weight then was 215 - 220. Louis' prime was from 1937, until 1948, his average weight then was 200 - 205. Thats far from an insurmountable problem. Louis was without doubt a faster, two handed and more importantly accurate combination puncher than Tyson. It is not what tyson would be doing to Joe Louis that is the issue here, rather it is what Joe would be doing to him.
Tyson has antecedents for capitulating mentally under pressure, Louis doesn't.
He was taller and had longer arms. Who cares. Tyson looked huge compared to the man. Its called muscle. Outside of Ali in terms of hand speed, Tyson is regarded as having perhaps the fastest hands for a big man. . The power on Tysons part isnt even close.
Controversial wrote: ↑06 Jan 2018, 12:43
I never said Louis was lucky, it was a sign of the times that HWs in that era fought small guys. Louis was a great fighter, no doubt, but it shouldn't be forgotten he built his record against many small guys. It was common for LHWs to fight HWs, often they didn't even bother bulking up because there was no CW division and you were a HW over 175lb. Can you imagine a 169lb fighter challenging AJ, maybe Billy Joe Saunders? It just wouldn't happen because times have moved on. Love him or hate him Tyson was a fantastic puncher, he was two handed, fast and had KO power in either fist. Guys like Conn and Louis couldn't take that kinda power, they were just too small.
That simply doesn't make sense. Louis was taller than Tyson, with a bigger wingspan. The pro Tyson argument is he was too big and powerful for Louis in his prime. According to his fanboys his prime was up to and including Spinks. His weight then was 215 - 220. Louis' prime was from 1937, until 1948, his average weight then was 200 - 205. Thats far from an insurmountable problem. Louis was without doubt a faster, two handed and more importantly accurate combination puncher than Tyson. It is not what tyson would be doing to Joe Louis that is the issue here, rather it is what Joe would be doing to him.
Tyson has antecedents for capitulating mentally under pressure, Louis doesn't.
He was taller and had longer arms. Who cares. Tyson looked huge compared to the man. Its called muscle. Outside of Ali in terms of hand speed, Tyson is regarded as having perhaps the fastest hands for a big man. . The power on Tysons part isnt even close.
Joe Louis was a murderous puncher himself. And he was basically the same size as Evander Holyfileld who beat up Tyson really bad. Like Holyfield, he could punch in great combinations. Holyfield, of course, had better chin, but Louis definitely hit harder and was a bit faster than Evander.
That simply doesn't make sense. Louis was taller than Tyson, with a bigger wingspan. The pro Tyson argument is he was too big and powerful for Louis in his prime. According to his fanboys his prime was up to and including Spinks. His weight then was 215 - 220. Louis' prime was from 1937, until 1948, his average weight then was 200 - 205. Thats far from an insurmountable problem. Louis was without doubt a faster, two handed and more importantly accurate combination puncher than Tyson. It is not what tyson would be doing to Joe Louis that is the issue here, rather it is what Joe would be doing to him.
Tyson has antecedents for capitulating mentally under pressure, Louis doesn't.
He was taller and had longer arms. Who cares. Tyson looked huge compared to the man. Its called muscle. Outside of Ali in terms of hand speed, Tyson is regarded as having perhaps the fastest hands for a big man. . The power on Tysons part isnt even close.
Joe Louis was a murderous puncher himself. And he was basically the same size as Evander Holyfileld who beat up Tyson really bad. Like Holyfield, he could punch in great combinations. Holyfield, of course, had better chin, but Louis definitely hit harder and was a bit faster than Evander.
He wasn't even close to Holyfields size. The scale says 10 pounds seperated them. Might as well have been 100. Louis looked like a stick compared to Holyfield Questionable he hit harder. Holyfield wasn't trying to knock out 180 pounders.
He was taller and had longer arms. Who cares. Tyson looked huge compared to the man. Its called muscle. Outside of Ali in terms of hand speed, Tyson is regarded as having perhaps the fastest hands for a big man. . The power on Tysons part isnt even close.
Joe Louis was a murderous puncher himself. And he was basically the same size as Evander Holyfileld who beat up Tyson really bad. Like Holyfield, he could punch in great combinations. Holyfield, of course, had better chin, but Louis definitely hit harder and was a bit faster than Evander.
He wasn't even close to Holyfields size. The scale says 10 pounds seperated them. Might as well have been 100. Louis looked like a stick compared to Holyfield Questionable he hit harder. Holyfield wasn't trying to knock out 180 pounders.
Carnera, Buddy Baer, Simon were huge 250-260 lbs guys. And Louis KO'ed them easily
