Lennox Lewis: Is He in the Great Larry Holmes' Class?

[Boxing Writer]

Lewis is easily in Larry's class. In fact I think he's a greater fighter. Holmes is somewhat overated on these forums these days. His best wins? Well Cooney, a young witherspoon, erm an old Norton erm. there's not a lot really. He certainly beat some crummy fighters as champion and lost to Spinks and Tyson. Don't get me wrong I grew up watching holmes and saw all his fights, a great heavy for sure.

Lewis - well you've got holyfield, Tyson, Vlad K, Mercer, Mcall, Tua, he killed Ruddock who really gave tyson all he could handle. Lewis defo in holmes class and i reckon had a much stronger qoo

Holmes beat better, younger, fresher, more active version of Mercer way more decesively than Lewis did. And he did it at advanced age (42) when Mercer was 30, while Lewis at 30 went life and death with 36 y.o. Mercer. Holmes, when he was 45 y.o., also arguably beat Oliver McCall (I scored thier fight 114-114), who knocked out Lewis in two rounds in his previous fight. I also think that Witherspoon would KTFO guys like Ruddock and Briggs and outbox Tua. I think Witherspoon and Norton would beat anybody in Lewis' resume with the exception of Holyfield (I'd still favour both of them slightly against that version of Holyfield) and Vitali (I'd slightly favour Vitali against both of them).

[Kalan]

It ain't that I don't like Lennox Lewis. He just simply was not a great fighter like people want him to be. He was a good champion. But, he lacked that great win to categorize him as a great fighter.

You can't compare him to the career of the great Pascual Perez. Perez had much more fights and was a consistent winner in his weight class. He had 92 professional boxing matches. For a fighter, that is a lot of fights. He was champion in all levels of competition. And he started at 26. I imagine if he would have start in 1948 instead of 1952? He would have had much more fights fighting at that rate. Perez had 11 interrupted title defenses. His first defeat was at age 33 after more than 52 bouts.

Elmersalsa you're unconscionable.... Does it bother you that more than HALF of Perez's opponents never won a fight???

Only Jimmy Wilde can be compared to Pascual Perez when it comes to record padding and cherry-picked opponents

[Ned Merrill]

For me Lenny and Larry are both top-ten all-time great heavyweight kings. I suppose it comes down to preference as to where exactly in that top-ten (should you agree) you rank them. I personally go back and forth where I place them in that top-ten, especially when I try to measure their respective impacts on history.

Their careers speak to different ebb and flow. One had a slow and at-times, near invisible build towards contention, with a limited and less than storied amateur campaign. Holmes operated in the shadows of two ring giants, his climb often complicated by his promoter or marred by the outside interests and perception of the boxing media of the time. The other, Lewis, highlighted by an Olympic gold medal win over an American, was carefully followed and celebrated, if even begrudgingly, by the boxing media of the time. The pedigree was there and in time obvious, even if sometimes the performances were a little uneven, but the built-in story line, lay in the hope the man Lewis had beaten for Olympic glory, himself a very talented and high profile fighter, was ascending the rankings, showing impressive form.

To some extent, both Larry and Lenny wore the Black Hat. Larry for whipping remnants of Ali, Lenny for stopping Riddick Bowe for the gold medal. Both did it in front of the whole world.

Their styles, strengths and ring attributes aside (and they both possessed such in spades), their personalities and charisma (or lack thereof) aside, history suggests points that, depending on your preferred flavor, affect their standing within the hallowed halls of that ATG top-ten.

Both picked-up the WBC title based on a linear champ letting it go. "Letting it go" means a few different things, so it comes down to how you wanna stir the Kool-Aid. "Linear" can often be a bitch for some fans, but not all, as not all fans toe the line of idolatry.

Holmes won the WBC title from a guy like Lewis, in that it was an awarded or bestowed by a sanctioning body, to or upon a fighter/contender. Lewis was awarded the title for his thrashing of Razor Ruddock, but me thinks really, for his work back in 1988 at the Olympics, after Bowe opted to back-out on his face-to-face promise to whip Lewis, in the moments after defeating Holyfield for the World heavyweight title. This is conjecture on my part, but history suggests strongly that a garbage can got in the way of Riddick making good on his promise, and as such, Lenny got the green strap, even as Bowe held the linear title along with WBA/IBF plastic.

History and perception of it, often hint at different paths. History tells us Holmes became the "heavyweight champion" in June 1978. A critical review of that using the old school Ring Magazine approach (pre-revamp) suggests that in fact, Holmes became the linear World heavyweight champ in October 1980. Whatever. What isn't up for debate is that Holmes was terrific and mostly dominant. In the moments where he seemed to skid or appear less than perfect (Weaver, Shavers, Snipes, Spoon, Williams), he demonstrated that rare and glorious championship quality of finding a way to win and preserve his standing. Those moments hinted to us his true worth; how special the man actually was. Those moments of extreme duress gave us clues, if even in reverse, of his greatness.

In time, Father Time seemed to catch-up with Holmes, as did his poor relationship with the media, and its preoccupation with forming perception and denigrating a great whose only true sins were an acid tongue and having sent the ghost of great Ali into retirement. It didn't help that Holmes was open about his ambition to making the most money for the least amount of risk, circa 1985, as he closed-in on Marciano's 49-0 record, but the choice of a skinny light heavyweight champion as his step towards eclipsing that mark didn't sit well with many while threatening titlists such as WBC champ Pinklon Thomas loomed in the background.

History shows us that ring history was indeed made, as the first light heavyweight in history managed to upend a reigning World heavyweight king. I believe 13 men failed to do what Spinks did that fateful Fall night in 1985. Indeed, it was a September to Remember. Holmes never again managed to regain a major world title or the World heavyweight title, despite opportunities the next few years and into the next decade. But, a great fighter he was.

As for Lewis, he was awarded the WBC title in his first go-round before losing it off of a single punch to the underrated Oliver McCall. It matters not that I believe to this day, the ref was less than stellar in that fight. McCall flattened Lenny. Such is a matter of historical fact, with no blur or controversy.

Post-McCall, a re-tooled Lewis made strides whipping top-flight opposition and major world titlists. The real question is, when did the Steward-improved Lewis actually clinch the World heavyweight title? A review of his record indicates he won the vacant WBC title in his colourful rematch with the aforementioned McCall in February 1997, but using that old pre-revamped Ring Magazine standard of “the man who beat the man, who beat the man”, Lewis actually became linear World heavyweight king in March 1998, when he knocked-out Shannon Briggs. After that he successfully unified some plastic when he defeated Evander Holyfield in their rematch. In April 2001 he was stopped again off of a single punch, this time by the talented and underrated top-ten contender Hasim Rahman. Later that same year Lewis regained the linear World heavyweight title (and all the plastic that sometimes goes with it) when he knocked-out Rahman in their much anticipated rematch. In subsequent matches, Lewis fought high-profile bouts with former World heavyweight champion Mike Tyson and future champion (a topic deserving of its own debate) Vitali Klitschko. History suggests Lewis was a three-time heavyweight champion. Pre-revamp Ring Magazine suggests Lewis was in fact a two-time heavyweight champion. In either regard, Lennox Lewis walked away as champion.

From a historical perspective, the career arc of Lewis appears to hold more colour and perhaps merit, than does that of Holmes. But first glance fails to reveal the key details of era, career backing and exposure, and its affect on momentum and opportunity. It also doesn't offer insight into the schooling of Holmes, and his work with all-time greats Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier, behind the curtain. I submit that what Holmes failed to learn as an amateur, he learned with the schooling he received as an up-and-coming young heavyweight; learning his trade in the dark shadows of dank and forgotten gyms, against men of the varying high calibre and a few of the highest pedigree.

Consider the initial career losses of both men. Many point to Holmes having lost, if only by inches, to a natural light heavyweight, or to many fans, “the guy that lost in 91 seconds to Tyson”. But the reality is that Holmes was days away from turning 36 years-old. Previous ring greats such as Joe Louis, Sonny Liston, Ali and Frazier were but mere shadows of their former selves by that age. Also consider that Spinks was an all-time great at light heavyweight, not to mention a former Olympic medallist. Such pedigree should not be so easily dismissed.

Lewis' first loss was to an underrated talent with an unremarkable record, who I contend was a remarkable physical freak, with the ability to learn and up his game when it counted most. His second career loss came years later. Aging and of highly suspect conditioning, a less-than-focused Lewis walked into the heavy and well-timed punch of a talented top contender, the sort of fighter who, when on his game, could have given a good account of himself with most any heavyweight champion in history. In the rematch, Lewis demonstrated his pedigree (and at the other end of it, the lack of focus and preparation he had going into the 1st match) and obliterated Rahman in a manner that had been expected the first time. This was done at the age of 36, similar to Holmes, but remarkably, with an explosive sharpness and athleticism Holmes seemed to lack at that point. Ring mileage may have played a part for Holmes, but again one might think that having suffered two one-punch stoppage losses would have had a negative impact on the odometer (and maybe it did) on Lennox, but the fact remains Lewis turned back the clock at an age in a way no other heavyweight king before him ever did. After that, Lewis defeated arguably two all-time greats in Mike Tyson and the elder Klitschko brother.

I personally have a hard time ranking these two, relative to each other, in my ever-changing all-time top-ten. I'm sure there are a few of you who see it from a different, and perhaps more clear perspective, and I look forward to your feedback.

[ewenhay]

For me Lenny and Larry are both top-ten all-time great heavyweight kings. I suppose it comes down to preference as to where exactly in that top-ten (should you agree) you rank them. I personally go back and forth where I place them in that top-ten, especially when I try to measure their respective impacts on history.

Their careers speak to different ebb and flow. One had a slow and at-times, near invisible build towards contention, with a limited and less than storied amateur campaign. Holmes operated in the shadows of two ring giants, his climb often complicated by his promoter or marred by the outside interests and perception of the boxing media of the time. The other, Lewis, highlighted by an Olympic gold medal win over an American, was carefully followed and celebrated, if even begrudgingly, by the boxing media of the time. The pedigree was there and in time obvious, even if sometimes the performances were a little uneven, but the built-in story line, lay in the hope the man Lewis had beaten for Olympic glory, himself a very talented and high profile fighter, was ascending the rankings, showing impressive form.

To some extent, both Larry and Lenny wore the Black Hat. Larry for whipping remnants of Ali, Lenny for stopping Riddick Bowe for the gold medal. Both did it in front of the whole world.

Their styles, strengths and ring attributes aside (and they both possessed such in spades), their personalities and charisma (or lack thereof) aside, history suggests points that, depending on your preferred flavor, affect their standing within the hallowed halls of that ATG top-ten.

Both picked-up the WBC title based on a linear champ letting it go. "Letting it go" means a few different things, so it comes down to how you wanna stir the Kool-Aid. "Linear" can often be a bitch for some fans, but not all, as not all fans toe the line of idolatry.

Holmes won the WBC title from a guy like Lewis, in that it was an awarded or bestowed by a sanctioning body, to or upon a fighter/contender. Lewis was awarded the title for his thrashing of Razor Ruddock, but me thinks really, for his work back in 1988 at the Olympics, after Bowe opted to back-out on his face-to-face promise to whip Lewis, in the moments after defeating Holyfield for the World heavyweight title. This is conjecture on my part, but history suggests strongly that a garbage can got in the way of Riddick making good on his promise, and as such, Lenny got the green strap, even as Bowe held the linear title along with WBA/IBF plastic.

History and perception of it, often hint at different paths. History tells us Holmes became the "heavyweight champion" in June 1978. A critical review of that using the old school Ring Magazine approach (pre-revamp) suggests that in fact, Holmes became the linear World heavyweight champ in October 1980. Whatever. What isn't up for debate is that Holmes was terrific and mostly dominant. In the moments where he seemed to skid or appear less than perfect (Weaver, Shavers, Snipes, Spoon, Williams), he demonstrated that rare and glorious championship quality of finding a way to win and preserve his standing. Those moments hinted to us his true worth; how special the man actually was. Those moments of extreme duress gave us clues, if even in reverse, of his greatness.

In time, Father Time seemed to catch-up with Holmes, as did his poor relationship with the media, and its preoccupation with forming perception and denigrating a great whose only true sins were an acid tongue and having sent the ghost of great Ali into retirement. It didn't help that Holmes was open about his ambition to making the most money for the least amount of risk, circa 1985, as he closed-in on Marciano's 49-0 record, but the choice of a skinny light heavyweight champion as his step towards eclipsing that mark didn't sit well with many while threatening titlists such as WBC champ Pinklon Thomas loomed in the background.

History shows us that ring history was indeed made, as the first light heavyweight in history managed to upend a reigning World heavyweight king. I believe 13 men failed to do what Spinks did that fateful Fall night in 1985. Indeed, it was a September to Remember. Holmes never again managed to regain a major world title or the World heavyweight title, despite opportunities the next few years and into the next decade. But, a great fighter he was.

As for Lewis, he was awarded the WBC title in his first go-round before losing it off of a single punch to the underrated Oliver McCall. It matters not that I believe to this day, the ref was less than stellar in that fight. McCall flattened Lenny. Such is a matter of historical fact, with no blur or controversy.

Post-McCall, a re-tooled Lewis made strides whipping top-flight opposition and major world titlists. The real question is, when did the Steward-improved Lewis actually clinch the World heavyweight title? A review of his record indicates he won the vacant WBC title in his colourful rematch with the aforementioned McCall in February 1997, but using that old pre-revamped Ring Magazine standard of “the man who beat the man, who beat the man”, Lewis actually became linear World heavyweight king in March 1998, when he knocked-out Shannon Briggs. After that he successfully unified some plastic when he defeated Evander Holyfield in their rematch. In April 2001 he was stopped again off of a single punch, this time by the talented and underrated top-ten contender Hasim Rahman. Later that same year Lewis regained the linear World heavyweight title (and all the plastic that sometimes goes with it) when he knocked-out Rahman in their much anticipated rematch. In subsequent matches, Lewis fought high-profile bouts with former World heavyweight champion Mike Tyson and future champion (a topic deserving of its own debate) Vitali Klitschko. History suggests Lewis was a three-time heavyweight champion. Pre-revamp Ring Magazine suggests Lewis was in fact a two-time heavyweight champion. In either regard, Lennox Lewis walked away as champion.

From a historical perspective, the career arc of Lewis appears to hold more colour and perhaps merit, than does that of Holmes. But first glance fails to reveal the key details of era, career backing and exposure, and its affect on momentum and opportunity. It also doesn't offer insight into the schooling of Holmes, and his work with all-time greats Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier, behind the curtain. I submit that what Holmes failed to learn as an amateur, he learned with the schooling he received as an up-and-coming young heavyweight; learning his trade in the dark shadows of dank and forgotten gyms, against men of the varying high calibre and a few of the highest pedigree.

Consider the initial career losses of both men. Many point to Holmes having lost, if only by inches, to a natural light heavyweight, or to many fans, “the guy that lost in 91 seconds to Tyson”. But the reality is that Holmes was days away from turning 36 years-old. Previous ring greats such as Joe Louis, Sonny Liston, Ali and Frazier were but mere shadows of their former selves by that age. Also consider that Spinks was an all-time great at light heavyweight, not to mention a former Olympic medallist. Such pedigree should not be so easily dismissed.

Lewis' first loss was to an underrated talent with an unremarkable record, who I contend was a remarkable physical freak, with the ability to learn and up his game when it counted most. His second career loss came years later. Aging and of highly suspect conditioning, a less-than-focused Lewis walked into the heavy and well-timed punch of a talented top contender, the sort of fighter who, when on his game, could have given a good account of himself with most any heavyweight champion in history. In the rematch, Lewis demonstrated his pedigree (and at the other end of it, the lack of focus and preparation he had going into the 1st match) and obliterated Rahman in a manner that had been expected the first time. This was done at the age of 36, similar to Holmes, but remarkably, with an explosive sharpness and athleticism Holmes seemed to lack at that point. Ring mileage may have played a part for Holmes, but again one might think that having suffered two one-punch stoppage losses would have had a negative impact on the odometer (and maybe it did) on Lennox, but the fact remains Lewis turned back the clock at an age in a way no other heavyweight king before him ever did. After that, Lewis defeated arguably two all-time greats in Mike Tyson and the elder Klitschko brother.

I personally have a hard time ranking these two, relative to each other, in my ever-changing all-time top-ten. I'm sure there are a few of you who see it from a different, and perhaps more clear perspective, and I look forward to your feedback.

I think that's an absolutely superb post. I agree completely that both were great heavyweights and deserve much respect. I don't think there's a lot between them personally , I could easily see them sharing some wins against each other in a series of fights prime v prime.

[Kalan]

History tells us Holmes became the "heavyweight champion" in June 1978. A critical review of that using the old school Ring Magazine approach (pre-revamp) suggests that in fact, Holmes became the linear World heavyweight champ in October 1980 ...... I look forward to your feedback

My feedback is this -- you need to lose the word "linear" when talking about "lineal" World Champions.

Larry Holmes was the TRUE Heavyweight Champion of the World when he beat Ken Norton.... In cherry picking Leon Spinks, Ali ignored the fact that Holmes even existed.... Spinks was stripped of the Title and Holmes rightfully ascended the throne.... But Ali continued to ignore Holmes existence with the Spinks rematch and didn't deserve to be Champion.

The ONLY reason Ali fought Holmes in 1980 is he was desperate for money.... Ali knew he'd make a mountain of money fighting the very strongly established Heavyweight Champion, Holmes... Ali was NOT the Lineal Champ at that point... On the day you announce your retirement from Boxing there is NO champion... Your successor is the man who wins the box-off.... You're no longer fighting deserving challengers.... You abandoned the Title... You're a former champion.

Were Ali as well set with his investments and net worth in 1980 -- as Lewis and the Klitschko Bros are today -- Ali never would have dreamed of embarrassing himself against Larry Holmes... We would have missed that shameful spectacle... The idea that Holmes could "win" anything by beating the hapless Ali is ludicrous... Holmes retained the same status he enjoyed since beating Ken Norton for the title stripped from Spinks.

I also like the way you refer to Michael Spinks as an "Olympic Medalist" .... He was an "Olympic Gold Medalist."

You blame the referee for stopping Lewis-McCall 1, when Lewis was stumbling around and leaned bodily on the referee... Had McCall landed another bomb on a hurt Lewis it would have moved his odometer like crazy... Great stoppage.

Lewis didn't turn back the clock in Rahman 2... He was still very good and simply fought to his potential... Foreman turned back the clock against Moorer and Holmes turned back the clock versus Mercer.... Since Ray Mercer was a Heavyweight Champion on the 2 previous nights he fought -- knocking out both Francesco Damiani and Tommy Morrison, and NOBODY had beaten him in the interim -- I find it strange that Holmes was screwed out of Title recognition.... He also had the better of Oliver McCall and should have been Heavyweight Championship at 45.

[Ned Merrill]

For me Lenny and Larry are both top-ten all-time great heavyweight kings. I suppose it comes down to preference as to where exactly in that top-ten (should you agree) you rank them. I personally go back and forth where I place them in that top-ten, especially when I try to measure their respective impacts on history.

Their careers speak to different ebb and flow. One had a slow and at-times, near invisible build towards contention, with a limited and less than storied amateur campaign. Holmes operated in the shadows of two ring giants, his climb often complicated by his promoter or marred by the outside interests and perception of the boxing media of the time. The other, Lewis, highlighted by an Olympic gold medal win over an American, was carefully followed and celebrated, if even begrudgingly, by the boxing media of the time. The pedigree was there and in time obvious, even if sometimes the performances were a little uneven, but the built-in story line, lay in the hope the man Lewis had beaten for Olympic glory, himself a very talented and high profile fighter, was ascending the rankings, showing impressive form.

To some extent, both Larry and Lenny wore the Black Hat. Larry for whipping remnants of Ali, Lenny for stopping Riddick Bowe for the gold medal. Both did it in front of the whole world.

Their styles, strengths and ring attributes aside (and they both possessed such in spades), their personalities and charisma (or lack thereof) aside, history suggests points that, depending on your preferred flavor, affect their standing within the hallowed halls of that ATG top-ten.

Both picked-up the WBC title based on a linear champ letting it go. "Letting it go" means a few different things, so it comes down to how you wanna stir the Kool-Aid. "Linear" can often be a bitch for some fans, but not all, as not all fans toe the line of idolatry.

Holmes won the WBC title from a guy like Lewis, in that it was an awarded or bestowed by a sanctioning body, to or upon a fighter/contender. Lewis was awarded the title for his thrashing of Razor Ruddock, but me thinks really, for his work back in 1988 at the Olympics, after Bowe opted to back-out on his face-to-face promise to whip Lewis, in the moments after defeating Holyfield for the World heavyweight title. This is conjecture on my part, but history suggests strongly that a garbage can got in the way of Riddick making good on his promise, and as such, Lenny got the green strap, even as Bowe held the linear title along with WBA/IBF plastic.

History and perception of it, often hint at different paths. History tells us Holmes became the "heavyweight champion" in June 1978. A critical review of that using the old school Ring Magazine approach (pre-revamp) suggests that in fact, Holmes became the linear World heavyweight champ in October 1980. Whatever. What isn't up for debate is that Holmes was terrific and mostly dominant. In the moments where he seemed to skid or appear less than perfect (Weaver, Shavers, Snipes, Spoon, Williams), he demonstrated that rare and glorious championship quality of finding a way to win and preserve his standing. Those moments hinted to us his true worth; how special the man actually was. Those moments of extreme duress gave us clues, if even in reverse, of his greatness.

In time, Father Time seemed to catch-up with Holmes, as did his poor relationship with the media, and its preoccupation with forming perception and denigrating a great whose only true sins were an acid tongue and having sent the ghost of great Ali into retirement. It didn't help that Holmes was open about his ambition to making the most money for the least amount of risk, circa 1985, as he closed-in on Marciano's 49-0 record, but the choice of a skinny light heavyweight champion as his step towards eclipsing that mark didn't sit well with many while threatening titlists such as WBC champ Pinklon Thomas loomed in the background.

History shows us that ring history was indeed made, as the first light heavyweight in history managed to upend a reigning World heavyweight king. I believe 13 men failed to do what Spinks did that fateful Fall night in 1985. Indeed, it was a September to Remember. Holmes never again managed to regain a major world title or the World heavyweight title, despite opportunities the next few years and into the next decade. But, a great fighter he was.

As for Lewis, he was awarded the WBC title in his first go-round before losing it off of a single punch to the underrated Oliver McCall. It matters not that I believe to this day, the ref was less than stellar in that fight. McCall flattened Lenny. Such is a matter of historical fact, with no blur or controversy.

Post-McCall, a re-tooled Lewis made strides whipping top-flight opposition and major world titlists. The real question is, when did the Steward-improved Lewis actually clinch the World heavyweight title? A review of his record indicates he won the vacant WBC title in his colourful rematch with the aforementioned McCall in February 1997, but using that old pre-revamped Ring Magazine standard of “the man who beat the man, who beat the man”, Lewis actually became linear World heavyweight king in March 1998, when he knocked-out Shannon Briggs. After that he successfully unified some plastic when he defeated Evander Holyfield in their rematch. In April 2001 he was stopped again off of a single punch, this time by the talented and underrated top-ten contender Hasim Rahman. Later that same year Lewis regained the linear World heavyweight title (and all the plastic that sometimes goes with it) when he knocked-out Rahman in their much anticipated rematch. In subsequent matches, Lewis fought high-profile bouts with former World heavyweight champion Mike Tyson and future champion (a topic deserving of its own debate) Vitali Klitschko. History suggests Lewis was a three-time heavyweight champion. Pre-revamp Ring Magazine suggests Lewis was in fact a two-time heavyweight champion. In either regard, Lennox Lewis walked away as champion.

From a historical perspective, the career arc of Lewis appears to hold more colour and perhaps merit, than does that of Holmes. But first glance fails to reveal the key details of era, career backing and exposure, and its affect on momentum and opportunity. It also doesn't offer insight into the schooling of Holmes, and his work with all-time greats Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier, behind the curtain. I submit that what Holmes failed to learn as an amateur, he learned with the schooling he received as an up-and-coming young heavyweight; learning his trade in the dark shadows of dank and forgotten gyms, against men of the varying high calibre and a few of the highest pedigree.

Consider the initial career losses of both men. Many point to Holmes having lost, if only by inches, to a natural light heavyweight, or to many fans, “the guy that lost in 91 seconds to Tyson”. But the reality is that Holmes was days away from turning 36 years-old. Previous ring greats such as Joe Louis, Sonny Liston, Ali and Frazier were but mere shadows of their former selves by that age. Also consider that Spinks was an all-time great at light heavyweight, not to mention a former Olympic medallist. Such pedigree should not be so easily dismissed.

Lewis' first loss was to an underrated talent with an unremarkable record, who I contend was a remarkable physical freak, with the ability to learn and up his game when it counted most. His second career loss came years later. Aging and of highly suspect conditioning, a less-than-focused Lewis walked into the heavy and well-timed punch of a talented top contender, the sort of fighter who, when on his game, could have given a good account of himself with most any heavyweight champion in history. In the rematch, Lewis demonstrated his pedigree (and at the other end of it, the lack of focus and preparation he had going into the 1st match) and obliterated Rahman in a manner that had been expected the first time. This was done at the age of 36, similar to Holmes, but remarkably, with an explosive sharpness and athleticism Holmes seemed to lack at that point. Ring mileage may have played a part for Holmes, but again one might think that having suffered two one-punch stoppage losses would have had a negative impact on the odometer (and maybe it did) on Lennox, but the fact remains Lewis turned back the clock at an age in a way no other heavyweight king before him ever did. After that, Lewis defeated arguably two all-time greats in Mike Tyson and the elder Klitschko brother.

I personally have a hard time ranking these two, relative to each other, in my ever-changing all-time top-ten. I'm sure there are a few of you who see it from a different, and perhaps more clear perspective, and I look forward to your feedback.

I think that's an absolutely superb post. I agree completely that both were great heavyweights and deserve much respect. I don't think there's a lot between them personally , I could easily see them sharing some wins against each other in a series of fights prime v prime.

Thank you. I agree its a hard call between Holmes/Lewis and in a fantasy realm they could easily be 1-1 in 2 meetings. Great fighters, both of them.

[MrGuy]

He has the right to demand what he likes, the same as every other fighter. The sticking point is whether or not they get it?

Conversely anyone with a brain knows that offering a guy 3 million out of a 32 million pot, especially when that guy has already stopped your boy ( albeit in the Olympic final ) is blatantly ducking him. That desultory offer was the cowardly Bowe, and his even more cowardly managers way of avoiding Lewis at all costs.

Again I have zero interest in either your opinions or excuses. The FACTS are Lewis stopped Bowe in the second round when the met in the Olympic final. The other FACT is Bowe signed up four a 4 man tournament which included Ruddock, Holyfield, and Lewis with the 2 winners of the first round meeting for the WBC strap.

The gutless Bowe reneged on the deal, end of story.

He has the right to name his price. Not have over 3 million offered, turn it down, then scream his opponent is afraid. No tournament deal or low price when he refused to fight Tyson for 13 million.

1. He has every right to turn down a desultory offer and even more right to shout his opponent is afraid, especially as the FACTS spoke for themselves. The gutless Bowe did indeed drop the belt and fought the thrice already KO'd Dokes instead.

2. Lewis turned down Kings offer because he rightly considered him to ba a parasitical maggot. and simply wasn't interested in letting the scum have promotional options on future fights. Again Lewis was proven to be right because everyone with a brain knows King ripped off EVERY fighter he ever promoted. He could well have offered 130 million, never mind 13. It makes no difference when the lowlife piece of shite has no intention of paying it.

King wasn't the be all end all of boxing. He didn't have to agree to let him promote other fights. The sanctioning bodies aren't clean, but even they wouldn't let King get a mega fight like that torpedoed. Excuses.

[MrGuy]

You seem to have a knack for talking shite. The PROMOTOR offers a fighter a DEAL. In Kings case the DEAL meant an offer of money ( usually higher than other promotor's ) plus him having SOLE / SHARED promotional rights on a certain number of your future fights. If you are unaware of this well known fact, perhaps you should consider leaving boxing sites alone, and look for one that specialises in yoghurt knitting.

As stated Lewis considered King to be less than pig shite, and totally refused any deals that took the advantages away from himself.

That you don't like the idea of Lewis NOT getting ripped off by electric head like your little sex beast hero is neither here nor there, fact remains Lennox was far too clever for the likes of King.

Sorry genius King couldn't have demanded the top contender give him promotional rights. What is it? Promotional rights or not enough money? He ducked them plain and simple.

[MrGuy]

You seem to have a knack for talking shite. The PROMOTOR offers a fighter a DEAL. In Kings case the DEAL meant an offer of money ( usually higher than other promotor's ) plus him having SOLE / SHARED promotional rights on a certain number of your future fights. If you are unaware of this well known fact, perhaps you should consider leaving boxing sites alone, and look for one that specialises in yoghurt knitting.

As stated Lewis considered King to be less than pig shite, and totally refused any deals that took the advantages away from himself.

That you don't like the idea of Lewis NOT getting ripped off by electric head like your little sex beast hero is neither here nor there, fact remains Lennox was far too clever for the likes of King.

Sorry genius King couldn't have demanded the top contender give him promotional rights. What is it? Promotional rights or not enough money? He ducked them plain and simple.

Were you born thick or is it a life times achievement? Of course a promoter can offer a contender a title shot with the proviso if he wins he wants future promotional rights.

So remind us once again smart guy. Who gave Lewis 4 million dollars so that his boy didn't have to fight him, and therefore who ducked who? Your scabby opinion is of no consequence here, whereas the record of said 4 million dollar payment from King to Lewis speaks volumes.

He can make that offer. You cant force the top contender to give you future rights, or deny a shot. Actually Lewis was offered 13 million, and turned down the offer. Ridiculous. The Holyfield fight came up. Realizing he wouldnt sign, and more money could be made from Holyfield, he was offered that money to step aside. It speaks volumes Lewis turned down 13 million to fight him.

[Boxing Writer]

This article says Lewis wanted $15 million for the fight against Tyson, but Don King said Mike would rather vacate title than pay Lewis more than $10 million - http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1996 ... wis-claims

However, in this case why just don't wait for a purse bid? Tyson would get 75% and Lewis - 25%. I don't think it would be as profitable as a fight against Holyfield was, where Tyson made $30 million and Evander got $11 million. I think $36 million would be more than enough to win a purse bid for Tyson - Lewis in 1996. In this case Tyson would get $27 million, and Lewis would get $9 million. King didn't need to pay Lewis $15 million if he could easily win a purse bid and pay him $9 million. OK, lets say King was afraid that Main Event would outbid him, so he would overpay for this fight and put a bid as high as $40 million. But even in this case he would need to pay Lewis $10 million only.

So I think their decision was dictated by different factors:

1) King didn't want to overpay for the dangerous fight
2) King thought Holyfield would be less risky opponent that would bring more money to the table. Everobody thought Holyfeld was a shot fighter after his fight against Czyz.

As for Lewis taking $4 million, I think it was a right decision. Any person in the world would agree to get $4 million FOR FREE. He didn't need to do anything for it. Had he turned down King's offer, Tyson could vacate title anyway and Lewis wouldn't get his money at all. Only complete idiot would say 'no' to the offer like that. Most of fighters don't make $4 million for their whole carreers, and he was offered to get them for free. He didn't even need to train a single second to get them.

[MrGuy]

Let me try to put it another simpler way, so that even Mr Guy MIGHT understand it.

THE ONLY DEALINGS LENNOX LEWIS HAD WITH THE VERMINOUS, LOWLIFE SUBHUMAN DON KING WAS THROUGH LITIGATION. THE SUPERIOR SPECIMEN OF HUMANITY MET KING ONLY ONCE, AND DISMISSED HIM AS LESS THAN A SPARRING PARTNER. A COMPLETE NONENTITY.

You know King couldn't have demanded options on future fights for the top ranked contender. So its money and options. Priceless.

[MrGuy]

Only you seem either more naive, or stupid than it is possible to be.

You seem to have trouble comprehending Lewis ducked them. What was he going to do? Never fight anyone assiciated with King? Had no problem fighting Rahman. Believe what you want. The top contender couldnt be forced to have future fights to get a shot. That 3 million he turned down for Bowe, later turned to 11 million. Still turned him down.

[Counter-puncher]

in terms of their status with regards to promoters, and determination to go their own way and not get ripped off, Lewis and Holmes make a good comparison.

[Counter-puncher]

both still got all their marbles and money, and King hardly made a penny off either (Holmes did do one or two fights with Kin I think?), good to see

[Tomasino]

both still got all their marbles and money, and King hardly made a penny off either (Holmes did do one or two fights with Kin I think?), good to see

Holmes did a few fights with King, including Tyson. Always hated him. In his way up King blackballed Larry, labelling him a dog.

No End is bad enough for the likes of King.

[elmersalsa]

It ain't that I don't like Lennox Lewis. He just simply was not a great fighter like people want him to be. He was a good champion. But, he lacked that great win to categorize him as a great fighter.

You can't compare him to the career of the great Pascual Perez. Perez had much more fights and was a consistent winner in his weight class. He had 92 professional boxing matches. For a fighter, that is a lot of fights. He was champion in all levels of competition. And he started at 26. I imagine if he would have start in 1948 instead of 1952? He would have had much more fights fighting at that rate. Perez had 11 interrupted title defenses. His first defeat was at age 33 after more than 52 bouts.

Elmersalsa you're unconscionable.... Does it bother you that more than HALF of Perez's opponents never won a fight???

Only Jimmy Wilde can be compared to Pascual Perez when it comes to record padding and cherry-picked opponents

You gotta study the history of boxing. Find out why the great Jimmy Wilde and Pascual Perez we're so great at flyweight.

[MrGuy]

Only you seem either more naive, or stupid than it is possible to be.

You seem to have trouble comprehending Lewis ducked them. What was he going to do? Never fight anyone assiciated with King? Had no problem fighting Rahman. Believe what you want. The top contender couldnt be forced to have future fights to get a shot. That 3 million he turned down for Bowe, later turned to 11 million. Still turned him down.

You are like kolon, each post gets more stupid. Rahman was NOT a King fighter until AFTER he took Lewis's title. Hence Lewis suing to get the rematch clause in the ORIGINAL contract invoked. This cos the verminous King tried to look for another opponent for his new performing monkey, because he was never going to be Lennox's organ grinder.

You obviously know nothing about Lewis, but you mouth off about him none the less. Like the scumbag King,,,Newman was also considered by Lewis and his people as being about as trustworthy as an alley cat, after the first ridiculous offer of 3 million compared to Bowe's 29 million. Instead of slagging off Lewis why don't you give me an example of either Newman or Kings trustworthiness.

You can't because BOTH are lowlife rip off merchants who leeched of dimwitted Murican fighters. There is a reason Lewis is a multi millionaire today, whilst Bowe, and Tyson haven't got the proverbial pot to piss in, and you slagging off Lewis for refusing to do business with scum like that says a lot more about you, than it does about him.

Are you even aware that upon his decision to turn pro after Seoul in 1988 Murican promoters were queing up to sign Lewis. Try using that grey matter between your ears to work out why he told them ALL to go fuk themselves and went to England.

Better yet give me an example other than Holmes ( who was also considered to be something of a renegade, and a nightmare by promoters ) of another Heavyweight who is as wealthy as Lewis since Patterson's day. I don't give a shite about what they supposedly EARNED, I am only interested in what they RECEIVED.

But Lewis fought him again after he became a King fighter. So now Newman ripped off everyone also? Most pro athletes are morons that end up broke regardless. Lewis who fought a collection of tomato cans, then beat Ruddock, was supposed to get a shot why? One good win? He should've been thankful for that 3 million offer that went up to 11 million.

[Ned Merrill]

The Witherspoon story says it for me. I might not have the figures correct, but they are not too far off the mark to explain the gist of it. The purse was a million ( I think ) and when Tim went to Kings office to collect the check it was for less than 50 grand, accompanied by a dirty great invoice listing all the so called " expenses "

And people want to criticise Lewis for having far too much intelligence to get involved with a maggot like that.

When I spent time interviewing Spoon seven years ago, he was quite clear with me about something I never expected to find out, despite following the 80's heavyweight division very closely. He told me he was absolutely stunned that King had ripped him off, and hurt that somebody he considered a close friend had conned him. "I know that he liked me. I couldn't believe it."

Even all of those years later, there seemed to be a tweak of disappointment and hurt in his voice when recounting those days, a lifetime ago, with King.

[MrGuy]

You are like kolon, each post gets more stupid. Rahman was NOT a King fighter until AFTER he took Lewis's title. Hence Lewis suing to get the rematch clause in the ORIGINAL contract invoked. This cos the verminous King tried to look for another opponent for his new performing monkey, because he was never going to be Lennox's organ grinder.

You obviously know nothing about Lewis, but you mouth off about him none the less. Like the scumbag King,,,Newman was also considered by Lewis and his people as being about as trustworthy as an alley cat, after the first ridiculous offer of 3 million compared to Bowe's 29 million. Instead of slagging off Lewis why don't you give me an example of either Newman or Kings trustworthiness.

You can't because BOTH are lowlife rip off merchants who leeched of dimwitted Murican fighters. There is a reason Lewis is a multi millionaire today, whilst Bowe, and Tyson haven't got the proverbial pot to piss in, and you slagging off Lewis for refusing to do business with scum like that says a lot more about you, than it does about him.

Are you even aware that upon his decision to turn pro after Seoul in 1988 Murican promoters were queing up to sign Lewis. Try using that grey matter between your ears to work out why he told them ALL to go fuk themselves and went to England.

Better yet give me an example other than Holmes ( who was also considered to be something of a renegade, and a nightmare by promoters ) of another Heavyweight who is as wealthy as Lewis since Patterson's day. I don't give a shite about what they supposedly EARNED, I am only interested in what they RECEIVED.

But Lewis fought him again after he became a King fighter. So now Newman ripped off everyone also? Most pro athletes are morons that end up broke regardless. Lewis who fought a collection of tomato cans, then beat Ruddock, was supposed to get a shot why? One good win? He should've been thankful for that 3 million offer that went up to 11 million.

So it isn't an act, you actually are simple. Lewis had a " rematch clause " in the event he lost to Rahman. He sued to get the clause invoked. The fact that Rahman had changed manager / promoter in the meantime was neither here nor there. Despite the worst intentions of the subhum Murican filth named King, he regained his title.

Yes you have managed to get one thing right, that other lowlife Murican filth named Newman did rip everyone off, or are you actually stupid enough to believe Bowe ate his way into poverty on burgers?

You see athletes broke in all sports. No guarantee Newman ripped him off. He fought McCall, Akinwande, and Tucker. All were King fighters going into those fights. Rahman going with King didn't keep him from fighting him again. Wasn't afraid to get ripped off then though. Of course Tucker was shot, Akinwande was nobody, and McCall was looked upon merely as ok. Funny the easy fights he wasn't concerned about getting ripped off in. It was "Muricans" that left him splattered on the canvas.

[MrGuy]

So it isn't an act, you actually are simple. Lewis had a " rematch clause " in the event he lost to Rahman. He sued to get the clause invoked. The fact that Rahman had changed manager / promoter in the meantime was neither here nor there. Despite the worst intentions of the subhum Murican filth named King, he regained his title.

Yes you have managed to get one thing right, that other lowlife Murican filth named Newman did rip everyone off, or are you actually stupid enough to believe Bowe ate his way into poverty on burgers?

You see athletes broke in all sports. No guarantee Newman ripped him off. He fought McCall, Akinwande, and Tucker. All were King fighters going into those fights. Rahman going with King didn't keep him from fighting him again. Wasn't afraid to get ripped off then though. Of course Tucker was shot, Akinwande was nobody, and McCall was looked upon merely as ok. Funny the easy fights he wasn't concerned about getting ripped off in. It was "Muricans" that left him splattered on the canvas.

Try looking up LION PROMOTIONS sh,it for brains, and the date the company was started. Lewis fought Tucker because the cowardly Murican vermin Bowe dumped his belt in the bin. Far from being shot Tucker was at the top of his game, and Lewis was the first man EVER to drop him on his ass. Akinwande was a CHALLENGER for Lennox's belt, and therefore King was in no position to dictate terms to Lewis. McCall and Lewis " fought " for the VACANT title the second time the two bob Murican moron cracked up, the first time Lewis was the champion, therefore the lowlife Murican scum King had no shout regarding what Lewis could or couldn't do.

But do keep trying, because it is funny ridiculing your stupid arguments.

Lewis dropped a cooked Tucker. He fought Tucker because he turned down an 11 million check for Bowe. Try again.

[MrGuy]

Try looking up LION PROMOTIONS sh,it for brains, and the date the company was started. Lewis fought Tucker because the cowardly Murican vermin Bowe dumped his belt in the bin. Far from being shot Tucker was at the top of his game, and Lewis was the first man EVER to drop him on his ass. Akinwande was a CHALLENGER for Lennox's belt, and therefore King was in no position to dictate terms to Lewis. McCall and Lewis " fought " for the VACANT title the second time the two bob Murican moron cracked up, the first time Lewis was the champion, therefore the lowlife Murican scum King had no shout regarding what Lewis could or couldn't do.

But do keep trying, because it is funny ridiculing your stupid arguments.

Lewis dropped a cooked Tucker. He fought Tucker because he turned down an 11 million check for Bowe. Try again.

I can't decide whether you are merely stupid or like the verminous Muricans King, and Newman a professional liar?

October 92 Lewis beats Ruddock, November 92 Bowe beats Holyfield. This is supposed to set up Bowe / Lewis. The subhuman Newman offers Lewis 3 mill, against 29 for Bowe. NOTHING ABOUT 11 MILLION AT ALL. But hey don't let that stop you because lying is second nature to Muricans.

Seeing as Lewis is a human being and not a Murican lowlife he tells Newman to shove it,. thus giving the gutless Bowe a reason to hide from Lewis.

May 93 Lewis beats a PRIME Tucker becoming the first guy ever to drop him.

Keep making up your little stories though.

Since Lewis had beat tomato cans, he shouldn't have been in any tournament fighting Ruddock. Prime Tucker? The guy who was in the 13th year of his career, and had taken over two years off, was in his prime? I understand your angst with all the Murican talk. I guess if the only champ at heavy this side of the pond produced was a chinny guy from Jamaica, I'd be upset also.

[ewenhay]

Lewis dropped a cooked Tucker. He fought Tucker because he turned down an 11 million check for Bowe. Try again.

I can't decide whether you are merely stupid or like the verminous Muricans King, and Newman a professional liar?

October 92 Lewis beats Ruddock, November 92 Bowe beats Holyfield. This is supposed to set up Bowe / Lewis. The subhuman Newman offers Lewis 3 mill, against 29 for Bowe. NOTHING ABOUT 11 MILLION AT ALL. But hey don't let that stop you because lying is second nature to Muricans.

Seeing as Lewis is a human being and not a Murican lowlife he tells Newman to shove it,. thus giving the gutless Bowe a reason to hide from Lewis.

May 93 Lewis beats a PRIME Tucker becoming the first guy ever to drop him.

Keep making up your little stories though.

Since Lewis had beat tomato cans, he shouldn't have been in any tournament fighting Ruddock. Prime Tucker? The guy who was in the 13th year of his career, and had taken over two years off, was in his prime? I understand your angst with all the Murican talk. I guess if the only champ at heavy this side of the pond produced was a chinny from Jamaica, I'd be upset also.

He was an Olympic gold medalist and a ranked heavyweight. Why did he not have any right to fight Ruddock? He stepped up in class and took the guy out therefore fully justifying the match up.

I don't understand why Lewis divides opinion so much. He was in the elite group of his era and was generally a fairly personable guy who tried to plough a furrow without getting into bed with Don King who is generally regarded as a scumbag.. Is it because he beat Holyfield?

[MrGuy]

I can't decide whether you are merely stupid or like the verminous Muricans King, and Newman a professional liar?

October 92 Lewis beats Ruddock, November 92 Bowe beats Holyfield. This is supposed to set up Bowe / Lewis. The subhuman Newman offers Lewis 3 mill, against 29 for Bowe. NOTHING ABOUT 11 MILLION AT ALL. But hey don't let that stop you because lying is second nature to Muricans.

Seeing as Lewis is a human being and not a Murican lowlife he tells Newman to shove it,. thus giving the gutless Bowe a reason to hide from Lewis.

May 93 Lewis beats a PRIME Tucker becoming the first guy ever to drop him.

Keep making up your little stories though.

Since Lewis had beat tomato cans, he shouldn't have been in any tournament fighting Ruddock. Prime Tucker? The guy who was in the 13th year of his career, and had taken over two years off, was in his prime? I understand your angst with all the Murican talk. I guess if the only champ at heavy this side of the pond produced was a chinny from Jamaica, I'd be upset also.

He was an Olympic gold medalist and a ranked heavyweight. Why did he not have any right to fight Ruddock? He stepped up in class and took the guy out therefore fully justifying the match up.

I don't understand why Lewis divides opinion so much. He was in the elite group of his era and was generally a fairly personable guy who tried to plough a furrow without getting into bed with Don King who is generally regarded as a scumbag.. Is it because he beat Holyfield?

Didn't say he didn't have the right to fight Ruddock. Olympic medals count for zilch in the pros. Just saying tomato cans plus one good win shouldn't mean you're up for the title. He got thrown into that tournament without beating anyone. I dont know. I think its because Steward ruined his style.

[Boxing Writer]

Since Lewis had beat tomato cans, he shouldn't have been in any tournament fighting Ruddock. Prime Tucker? The guy who was in the 13th year of his career, and had taken over two years off, was in his prime? I understand your angst with all the Murican talk. I guess if the only champ at heavy this side of the pond produced was a chinny from Jamaica, I'd be upset also.

He was an Olympic gold medalist and a ranked heavyweight. Why did he not have any right to fight Ruddock? He stepped up in class and took the guy out therefore fully justifying the match up.

I don't understand why Lewis divides opinion so much. He was in the elite group of his era and was generally a fairly personable guy who tried to plough a furrow without getting into bed with Don King who is generally regarded as a scumbag.. Is it because he beat Holyfield?

Didn't say he didn't have the right to fight Ruddock. Olympic medals count for zilch in the pros. Just saying tomato cans plus one good win shouldn't mean you're up for the title. He got thrown into that tournament without beating anyone. I dont know. I think its because Steward ruined his style.

Steward made him less exciting but way more effective. I don't think that older version of Lewis could be outboxed by Frank Bruno or would waste 8 rounds to KO glass-jawed Phil Jackson. I think that 'less exciting' older version of Lewis would stop Bruno in 5-6 rounds while winning all of them and would KO Phil Jackson in 2-3 rounds at most. I'm sure Lewis wouldn't last that long with his more exciting but way more reckless and vulnerable pre-Steward style.

[MrGuy]

Didn't say he didn't have the right to fight Ruddock.

Yes you did.

Olympic medals count for zilch in the pros

.

Then why the fuk do you septic tanks make such a big deal of Ali and Foreman winning them when it suits your agenda's?

And EXACTLY what did the sex beast feed on? And which exactly was his good win? 38 year old Holmes, maybe the Light Heavy Stinks?



You are right!!!!!

You don't know, yet it doesn't stop you opening your big mouth.

Tucker fought primarily tomato cans then. Far from his prime. I could care less about medals. How does winning gold entitle you to a shot at the title? He had the right to fight Ruddock. Not the right to have one great win after fighting tomato cans, then get a title shot. What exactly was your guys big win? A totally shot Holyfield? Or perhaps his draw/win over Mercer. Or perhaps Ruddock, who says he was done after the beatings Tyson laid on him.