Muhammad Ali, a different?

[Kalan]

I think that you're jiving when you said that you saw the Tony Zale vs Rocky Graziano I and II fights on film on a movie theater. You said that you were about 6 or 7 years old then. Well, you must be 77 or 78 now, right? Or you're just bullshiting us here?

I saw them in the early 50's long after they were fought. All 3 were dramatic fights and helped draw fans to theaters. I'm not as old as 77 or 78, but I saw a lot of legendary fighters in theaters and on live TV. My dad was a big fan and we'd talk boxing all the time and go to fights.

[elmersalsa]

I think that you're jiving when you said that you saw the Tony Zale vs Rocky Graziano I and II fights on film on a movie theater. You said that you were about 6 or 7 years old then. Well, you must be 77 or 78 now, right? Or you're just bullshiting us here?

I saw them in the early 50's long after they were fought. All 3 were dramatic fights and helped draw fans to theaters. I'm not as old as 77 or 78, but I saw a lot of legendary fighters in theaters and on live TV. My dad was a big fan and we'd talk boxing all the time and go to fights.

Then, why the boxing video tape collectors can't find The first two Zale vs Graziano fights?

[Kalan]

Important fights films have been: lost, destroyed by fire, or sat carelessly in storage and deteriorated beyond the point where they could be restored.

Not only important boxing matches, but movies, documentaries, interviews, and important historical footage has often been lost forever. It doesn't happen as much anymore, because film, recordings. and storage methods have greatly improved over the decades.

[gilgamesh]

Or you could just admit that you're lying because everyone already knows it.

[Kalan]

You're the liar. You claimed to be one of the top Boxing experts in the world -- and everyone knows that's a lie.

[gilgamesh]

Good comeback

[Kalan]

Because it's true

[MrGuy]

He would have been dominant in the 50's because he would have trash-talked his way into a title shot by early 1954 with an easy win over Marciano... He could have easily beaten Patterson -- and probably could have avoided Liston until he was an old man like Patterson did.

A younger, fresher Frazier beats him in the late 1960's... He hit the 70's at the right age as he was maturing physically and mentally and was tougher... He never had a great defense such as Holmes, Tunney, or Johnson -- they never got ripped with left hooks... A younger Ali may not have survived the 70's. Bad decades for Ali would have been the 1910's, Johnson... 1920's, Dempsey... 1930's Louis... 1980's Holmes and Tyson... 1990's Lewis and Tyson... 2000's Lewis and Klitschko's... Worst decade is the 2010's Klitschko's and Joshua. He would have gotten murdered.

I respect your opinion. But Joshua is nowhere near the level of the others, so why mention him? 90s Tyson was shot.. The only way either Klitschko or Joshua beats him, is if they play jab and grab. Or get to lay on him. Wlad was ko'd by three mediocre heavyweights. Vitali while very good, was horribly overrated for doing well against a past it Lewis. He didnt look all that great beating mediocre heavyweights. The division has took a nosedive since these guys have gotten so big.

[Ned Merrill]

Whitherspoon was good...DAMNED good.. If he kept improving at the rate he did up to the point he fought Holmes he would have taken over Boxing.

And as far as Ali is concerned...there're many excuses out there for his bad showings... Didn't getting punched a lot have anything to do with his problems?

I'm glad to see that finally, somebody else agrees with my feeling that Witherspoon was far better than is generally remembered. Properly focused and in condition, he could have done it.

[Ned Merrill]

He would have been dominant in the 50's because he would have trash-talked his way into a title shot by early 1954 with an easy win over Marciano... He could have easily beaten Patterson -- and probably could have avoided Liston until he was an old man like Patterson did.

A younger, fresher Frazier beats him in the late 1960's... He hit the 70's at the right age as he was maturing physically and mentally and was tougher... He never had a great defense such as Holmes, Tunney, or Johnson -- they never got ripped with left hooks... A younger Ali may not have survived the 70's. Bad decades for Ali would have been the 1910's, Johnson... 1920's, Dempsey... 1930's Louis... 1980's Holmes and Tyson... 1990's Lewis and Tyson... 2000's Lewis and Klitschko's... Worst decade is the 2010's Klitschko's and Joshua. He would have gotten murdered.

I respect your opinion. But Joshua is nowhere near the level of the others, so why mention him? 90s Tyson was shot.. The only way either Klitschko or Joshua beats him, is if they play jab and grab. Or get to lay on him. Wlad was ko'd by three mediocre heavyweights. Vitali while very good, was horribly overrated for doing well against a past it Lewis. He didnt look all that great beating mediocre heavyweights. The division has took a nosedive since these guys have gotten so big.

I do see Ali having difficulty with Wlad, based on Klitschko's ability to control range and distance. I believe that the Ali of 64-67 was arguably the best heavyweight champion we have seen to date, but I also think there are a handful of fighters, a few of them from the last 20 years, who would have pressed him heavily or made it damn hard to look as good as he looked back then.

[Nile4000]

Whitherspoon was good...DAMNED good.. If he kept improving at the rate he did up to the point he fought Holmes he would have taken over Boxing.

And as far as Ali is concerned...there're many excuses out there for his bad showings... Didn't getting punched a lot have anything to do with his problems?

I'm glad to see that finally, somebody else agrees with my feeling that Witherspoon was far better than is generally remembered. Properly focused and in condition, he could have done it.

I think Tim could have been a truly exceptional fighter. Though I wonder how he would have done against Tyson and Dokes.

[Kalan]

That's the fundamental flaw in all Kalan's Ali related arguments. He always measures Ali at his worst against every other fighter at their best

Ali was at his worst losing to Little Joe Frazier??? ... He was 29 yrs old... China Chinned Norton??? ... He was only 31.

Holmes put a whipping on Ray Mercer at 42.... Most had him beating Oliver McCall at 45... Nobody needs to haul out crying towels and make excuses for Larry out-scoring a man who stopped Lennox Lewis in his previous fight.

I'm not saying Ali wasn't good or quick... But he was very flawed....and wide open for jabs and left hooks.

[MrGuy]

He would have been dominant in the 50's because he would have trash-talked his way into a title shot by early 1954 with an easy win over Marciano... He could have easily beaten Patterson -- and probably could have avoided Liston until he was an old man like Patterson did.

A younger, fresher Frazier beats him in the late 1960's... He hit the 70's at the right age as he was maturing physically and mentally and was tougher... He never had a great defense such as Holmes, Tunney, or Johnson -- they never got ripped with left hooks... A younger Ali may not have survived the 70's. Bad decades for Ali would have been the 1910's, Johnson... 1920's, Dempsey... 1930's Louis... 1980's Holmes and Tyson... 1990's Lewis and Tyson... 2000's Lewis and Klitschko's... Worst decade is the 2010's Klitschko's and Joshua. He would have gotten murdered.

I respect your opinion. But Joshua is nowhere near the level of the others, so why mention him? 90s Tyson was shot.. The only way either Klitschko or Joshua beats him, is if they play jab and grab. Or get to lay on him. Wlad was ko'd by three mediocre heavyweights. Vitali while very good, was horribly overrated for doing well against a past it Lewis. He didnt look all that great beating mediocre heavyweights. The division has took a nosedive since these guys have gotten so big.

I do see Ali having difficulty with Wlad, based on Klitschko's ability to control range and distance. I believe that the Ali of 64-67 was arguably the best heavyweight champion we have seen to date, but I also think there are a handful of fighters, a few of them from the last 20 years, who would have pressed him heavily or made it damn hard to look as good as he looked back then.

He certainly wasn't untouchable. But the only way I see any of newer guys giving him much trouble, is if they were allowed to jab and grab. Wlad if allowed to do so, would give him trouble. Real fighting. Not so much.

[Kalan]

I love diversity of opinion. And Kalan....you put the "D" in Diversity.

However....I believe that one should shoot for A's or at least B's.

You put the "F" in Farthead... And you get another "F" for having nothing but Flatulent between your ears.

[Kalan]

I respect your opinion. But Joshua is nowhere near the level of the others, so why mention him? 90s Tyson was shot.. The only way either Klitschko or Joshua beats him, is if they play jab and grab. Or get to lay on him. Wlad was ko'd by three mediocre heavyweights. Vitali while very good, was horribly overrated for doing well against a past it Lewis. He didnt look all that great beating mediocre heavyweights. The division has took a nosedive since these guys have gotten so big.

I do see Ali having difficulty with Wlad, based on Klitschko's ability to control range and distance. I believe that the Ali of 64-67 was arguably the best heavyweight champion we have seen to date, but I also think there are a handful of fighters, a few of them from the last 20 years, who would have pressed him heavily or made it damn hard to look as good as he looked back then.

He certainly wasn't untouchable. But the only way I see any of newer guys giving him much trouble, is if they were allowed to jab and grab. Wlad if allowed to do so, would give him trouble. Real fighting. Not so much

Ali was a bigger jabber and grabber than Klitschko was....see Ali-Frazier 2.... Ali set a World Record for grabbing and wrestling in the 1st round of his Foreman fight.... 99% of fighters would have points deducted for that display....

I see Wladimir easily out jabbing and out hooking Ali with his massive size, strength, and punching power advantages.

Remember, Wladimir didn't just have the jab and right hand... Wladimir also had an extremely efficient stance, feinting, and brilliant footwork after he was coached by Emmanuel Steward for 2 or 3 years... He kept getting better... Wlad hooked Chambers, Austin, and Pulev out cold... Ali was wide open for left hooks and got tagged with a bunch of them -- so I don't see him getting away from Wladimir's swift, skillful and accurate ones...

I particularly like the way Wlad clocked Ray Austin in 2 rounds - using only footwork, feinting and the left hand he put him out cold with a series of quick left hooks... boom, boom, boom, boom -- gone.

[MrGuy]

I do see Ali having difficulty with Wlad, based on Klitschko's ability to control range and distance. I believe that the Ali of 64-67 was arguably the best heavyweight champion we have seen to date, but I also think there are a handful of fighters, a few of them from the last 20 years, who would have pressed him heavily or made it damn hard to look as good as he looked back then.

He certainly wasn't untouchable. But the only way I see any of newer guys giving him much trouble, is if they were allowed to jab and grab. Wlad if allowed to do so, would give him trouble. Real fighting. Not so much

Ali was a bigger jabber and grabber than Klitschko was....see Ali-Frazier 2.... Ali set a World Record for grabbing and wrestling in the 1st round of his Foreman fight.... 99% of fighters would have points deducted for that display....

I see Wladimir easily out jabbing and out hooking Ali with his massive size, strength, and punching power advantages.

Remember, Wladimir didn't just have the jab and right hand... Wladimir also had an extremely efficient stance, feinting, and brilliant footwork after he was coached by Emmanuel Steward for 2 or 3 years... He kept getting better... Wlad hooked Chambers, Austin, and Pulev out cold... Ali was wide open for left hooks and got tagged with a bunch of them -- so I don't see him getting away from Wladimir's swift, skillful and accurate ones...

I particularly like the way Wlad clocked Ray Austin in 2 rounds - using only footwork, feinting and the left hand he put him out cold with a series of quick left hooks... boom, boom, boom, boom -- gone.

Old Ali is different. Young Ali didnt hang all over fighters. Frazier 2 isn't most of his comeback fights. Something he used in some fights as he got older. Not every fight. He also didnt clinch and force his weight down on an opponent. Set a record? They didn't update, because Wlad would hold it now. Foreman wasn't Wlads weight, but looked it. Old Ali stopped him. Ali didnt get ko'd by nondescript fighters. He easily outpoints or tko's him.

[Kalan]

Old Ali is different. Young Ali didnt hang all over fighters. Frazier 2 isn't most of his comeback fights ..... Set a record? They didn't update, because Wlad would hold it now ..... Foreman wasn't Wlads weight, but looked it.

I hate to say it, but all that is actually utter nonsense...

A young Ali hung all over George Chuvalo when he was 24.....grabbing and holding him repeatedly all night..... Chuvalo was a super slow and hittable guy who took the fight on a couple weeks notice... But he landed a lot of good shots on Ali.... Ali grabbed Chuvalo and was getting pounded to the short ribs because Chuvalo had an arm free to punch---so the referee physically broke the fighters when Chuvalo had an arm free to punch giving the advantage to the fouling Ali, and those are legal punches Chuvalo was scoring with... The referee repeatedly told Chuvalo to stop punching and physically broke the fighters so Ali could reset from the outside again and stop getting hit... That was real nice.

And Ali DID set the holding World Record for a Heavyweight Championship Fight in the first round of his Foreman fight.... He grabbed Foreman 20 times and Wladimir Klitschko never approached that World Record... Ali was also allowed to wrestle and shove Foreman's head down leaning his weight on him.

And Foreman was 217 at his best condition ever when he blitzed Frazier in 2 rounds... Foreman looked the weight... He certainly didn't look anything like 6'7" X 245 like Wadimir Klitschko... He didn't start camp at 280 for Frazier... He came down from a slim 230 because he was fighting regularly as they started negotiations with Frazier...

Foreman was extremely lean, ripped, and powerful for Frazier 1... His balance and reactions looked tremendous... Had he kept to that weight and training regimen he would have done better.....and if he had the patience, pace, cool and ring smarts he developed in his 40's as a fat boy, he would have done even better yet... George took 10 prime years off in the middle of his career - so noobody knows how good he could have gotten if he put it all together.

As for Wladimir... Nobody ever came close to outjabbing Wladimir for about 12 years after Steward got him - until he faced the unreal height and range of young Fury when he was 39.... There's an age where you can't do it anymore---but even wide open, head first Norton out-jabbed and out hooked Ali when Ali was only 31.... It would be a battle of left hands and prime Wladimir had the better stance, footwork, range, power, ability to slip punches and variety of jabs and hooks... Some fights, like the Ray Austin fight, he barely even took a punch.

[MrGuy]

Old Ali is different. Young Ali didnt hang all over fighters. Frazier 2 isn't most of his comeback fights ..... Set a record? They didn't update, because Wlad would hold it now ..... Foreman wasn't Wlads weight, but looked it.

I hate to say it, but all that is actually utter nonsense...

A young Ali hung all over George Chuvalo when he was 24.....grabbing and holding him repeatedly all night..... Chuvalo was a super slow and hittable guy who took the fight on a couple weeks notice... But he landed a lot of good shots on Ali.... Ali grabbed Chuvalo and was getting pounded to the short ribs because Chuvalo had an arm free to punch---so the referee physically broke the fighters when Chuvalo had an arm free to punch giving the advantage to the fouling Ali, and those are legal punches Chuvalo was scoring with... The referee repeatedly told Chuvalo to stop punching and physically broke the fighters so Ali could reset from the outside again and stop getting hit... That was real nice.

And Ali DID set the holding World Record for a Heavyweight Championship Fight in the first round of his Foreman fight.... He grabbed Foreman 20 times and Wladimir Klitschko never approached that World Record... Ali was also allowed to wrestle and shove Foreman's head down leaning his weight on him.

And Foreman was 217 at his best condition ever when he blitzed Frazier in 2 rounds... Foreman looked the weight... He certainly didn't look anything like 6'7" X 245 like Wadimir Klitschko... He didn't start camp at 280 for Frazier... He came down from a slim 230 because he was fighting regularly as they started negotiations with Frazier...

Foreman was extremely lean, ripped, and powerful for Frazier 1... His balance and reactions looked tremendous... Had he kept to that weight and training regimen he would have done better.....and if he had the patience, pace, cool and ring smarts he developed in his 40's as a fat boy, he would have done even better yet... George took 10 prime years off in the middle of his career - so noobody knows how good he could have gotten if he put it all together.

As for Wladimir... Nobody ever came close to outjabbing Wladimir for about 12 years after Steward got him - until he faced the unreal height and range of young Fury when he was 39.... There's an age where you can't do it anymore---but even wide open, head first Norton out-jabbed and out hooked Ali when Ali was only 31.... It would be a battle of left hands and prime Wladimir had the better stance, footwork, range, power, ability to slip punches and variety of jabs and hooks... Some fights, like the Ray Austin fight, he barely even took a punch.

Foreman obviously never was as tall. Build wise he looked as big. You can handpick performances from young or old Ali. Dont take it literally. Its known Wlad was the king of jab and grab. Wlad had more power and reach. To say he had had better footwork and could slip punches better is priceless. If he got beat by the guys he did, no way he beats Ali.

[Kalan]

Old Ali is different. Young Ali didnt hang all over fighters. Frazier 2 isn't most of his comeback fights ..... Set a record? They didn't update, because Wlad would hold it now ..... Foreman wasn't Wlads weight, but looked it.

I hate to say it, but all that is actually utter nonsense...

A young Ali hung all over George Chuvalo when he was 24.....grabbing and holding him repeatedly all night..... Chuvalo was a super slow and hittable guy who took the fight on a couple weeks notice... But he landed a lot of good shots on Ali.... Ali grabbed Chuvalo and was getting pounded to the short ribs because Chuvalo had an arm free to punch---so the referee physically broke the fighters when Chuvalo had an arm free to punch giving the advantage to the fouling Ali, and those are legal punches Chuvalo was scoring with... The referee repeatedly told Chuvalo to stop punching and physically broke the fighters so Ali could reset from the outside again and stop getting hit... That was real nice.

And Ali DID set the holding World Record for a Heavyweight Championship Fight in the first round of his Foreman fight.... He grabbed Foreman 20 times and Wladimir Klitschko never approached that World Record... Ali was also allowed to wrestle and shove Foreman's head down leaning his weight on him.

And Foreman was 217 at his best condition ever when he blitzed Frazier in 2 rounds... Foreman looked the weight... He certainly didn't look anything like 6'7" X 245 like Wadimir Klitschko... He didn't start camp at 280 for Frazier... He came down from a slim 230 because he was fighting regularly as they started negotiations with Frazier...

Foreman was extremely lean, ripped, and powerful for Frazier 1... His balance and reactions looked tremendous... Had he kept to that weight and training regimen he would have done better.....and if he had the patience, pace, cool and ring smarts he developed in his 40's as a fat boy, he would have done even better yet... George took 10 prime years off in the middle of his career - so noobody knows how good he could have gotten if he put it all together.

As for Wladimir... Nobody ever came close to outjabbing Wladimir for about 12 years after Steward got him - until he faced the unreal height and range of young Fury when he was 39.... There's an age where you can't do it anymore---but even wide open, head first Norton out-jabbed and out hooked Ali when Ali was only 31.... It would be a battle of left hands and prime Wladimir had the better stance, footwork, range, power, ability to slip punches and variety of jabs and hooks... Some fights, like the Ray Austin fight, he barely even took a punch.

Foreman obviously never was as tall. Build wise he looked as big. You can handpick performances from young or old Ali. Dont take it literally. Its known Wlad was the king of jab and grab. Wlad had more power and reach. To say he had had better footwork and could slip punches better is priceless. If he got beat by the guys he did, no way he beats Ali

Foreman didn't look as big... But he certainly looked bigger and taller than Frazier .... who hooked the Hell out of Ali .... who was a bigger king of jab and grab than Wlad ever was when he fought anybody who was the least threat.

Ali also got beaten by pathetic Leon Spinks, who had 7 fights and never beat another top fighter other than Ali... Even the super awkward and wide open punching bag, Coetzee, flattened Spinks in a 1 round job... You're the guy who's cherry picking 3 fights Wladimir had pre-Steward....a time when Wlad still had massive flaws in his stance, footwork, and jab... Wladimir worked extremely hard with master trainer Steward to pick up his skills and shed his flaws... He did!

Where Wladimir was much better at 35 than 25, the deeply flawed Ali never got any better... He never overcame his penchant for getting hit with jabs and left hooks... He never overcame his habit of leaning straight back from looping, blooping punches, such as the one that shattered his jaw... He never corrected his stance or learned to slip punches well... Unfortunately this was not good for Ali's long term health...

Joshua is already a far better boxer than Ali ever was... He slips and ducks shots with much greater ease and expertise and is never forced to lay on the ropes and hide behind his gloves... AJ also has a much better inside game and body attack (Ali had none) and will be probably be far better at 35 than he is at 28 - since his work ethic is astounding.

[MrGuy]

I hate to say it, but all that is actually utter nonsense...

A young Ali hung all over George Chuvalo when he was 24.....grabbing and holding him repeatedly all night..... Chuvalo was a super slow and hittable guy who took the fight on a couple weeks notice... But he landed a lot of good shots on Ali.... Ali grabbed Chuvalo and was getting pounded to the short ribs because Chuvalo had an arm free to punch---so the referee physically broke the fighters when Chuvalo had an arm free to punch giving the advantage to the fouling Ali, and those are legal punches Chuvalo was scoring with... The referee repeatedly told Chuvalo to stop punching and physically broke the fighters so Ali could reset from the outside again and stop getting hit... That was real nice.

And Ali DID set the holding World Record for a Heavyweight Championship Fight in the first round of his Foreman fight.... He grabbed Foreman 20 times and Wladimir Klitschko never approached that World Record... Ali was also allowed to wrestle and shove Foreman's head down leaning his weight on him.

And Foreman was 217 at his best condition ever when he blitzed Frazier in 2 rounds... Foreman looked the weight... He certainly didn't look anything like 6'7" X 245 like Wadimir Klitschko... He didn't start camp at 280 for Frazier... He came down from a slim 230 because he was fighting regularly as they started negotiations with Frazier...

Foreman was extremely lean, ripped, and powerful for Frazier 1... His balance and reactions looked tremendous... Had he kept to that weight and training regimen he would have done better.....and if he had the patience, pace, cool and ring smarts he developed in his 40's as a fat boy, he would have done even better yet... George took 10 prime years off in the middle of his career - so noobody knows how good he could have gotten if he put it all together.

As for Wladimir... Nobody ever came close to outjabbing Wladimir for about 12 years after Steward got him - until he faced the unreal height and range of young Fury when he was 39.... There's an age where you can't do it anymore---but even wide open, head first Norton out-jabbed and out hooked Ali when Ali was only 31.... It would be a battle of left hands and prime Wladimir had the better stance, footwork, range, power, ability to slip punches and variety of jabs and hooks... Some fights, like the Ray Austin fight, he barely even took a punch.

Foreman obviously never was as tall. Build wise he looked as big. You can handpick performances from young or old Ali. Dont take it literally. Its known Wlad was the king of jab and grab. Wlad had more power and reach. To say he had had better footwork and could slip punches better is priceless. If he got beat by the guys he did, no way he beats Ali

Foreman didn't look as big... But he certainly looked bigger and taller than Frazier .... who hooked the Hell out of Ali .... who was a bigger king of jab and grab than Wlad ever was when he fought anybody who was the least threat.

Ali also got beaten by pathetic Leon Spinks, who had 7 fights and never beat another top fighter other than Ali... Even the super awkward and wide open punching bag, Coetzee, flattened Spinks in a 1 round job... You're the guy who's cherry picking 3 fights Wladimir had pre-Steward....a time when Wlad still had massive flaws in his stance, footwork, and jab... Wladimir worked extremely hard with master trainer Steward to pick up his skills and shed his flaws... He did!

Where Wladimir was much better at 35 than 25, the deeply flawed Ali never got any better... He never overcame his penchant for getting hit with jabs and left hooks... He never overcame his habit of leaning straight back from looping, blooping punches, such as the one that shattered his jaw... He never corrected his stance or learned to slip punches well... Unfortunately this was not good for Ali's long term health...

Joshua is already a far better boxer than Ali ever was... He slips and ducks shots with much greater ease and expertise and is never forced to lay on the ropes and hide behind his gloves... AJ also has a much better inside game and body attack (Ali had none) and will be probably be far better at 35 than he is at 28 - since his work ethic is astounding.

Foreman lookef bigger than Wlad. Ali lost to Spinks almost two decades into his career. Wlad didn't get better. He just held more. With Wlad its not cherry picking. He didn't get beat. He got starched by guys he should've ran through. Joshua isn't in Ali's class as a boxer.

[Kalan]

That's all biased nonsense from a big Ali fan.

Ali was super easy to hit with left hooks and Joshua isn't... AJ easily slipped and ducked follow up left hooks from Wlad that would have ripped Ali's head off.... Ali grabbed 3 X more than Wlad... Joshua hardly grabs at all... He didn't even grab after he was floored... He defended himself very well... Ali deteriorated rapidly from the many head shots he took. You'll never see that happening to Joshua if he fights another 15 years... He already has Holmes like skills with only 20 fights.

[MrGuy]

That's all biased nonsense from a big Ali fan.

Ali was super easy to hit with left hooks and Joshua isn't... AJ easily slipped and ducked follow up left hooks from Wlad that would have ripped Ali's head off.... Ali grabbed 3 X more than Wlad... Joshua hardly grabs at all... He didn't even grab after he was floored... He defended himself very well... Ali deteriorated rapidly from the many head shots he took. You'll never see that happening to Joshua if he fights another 15 years... He already has Holmes like skills with only 20 fights.

Ali wasn't easy to hit with anything until he got suspended. Wlad isn't the puncher Foreman was. Biased fan? You know nothing of my opinion from Ali. He wasn't perfect. But to claim Joshua is a better boxer is laughable. Joshua will never suffer the punishment because he wont have a two decade career. Ali clinching as an old fighter is different than his prime. Many of his so callled clinches were grabbing his opponents neck and shoulder, leaving his body exposed to be hit. Different than tying an opponent up to where they cant punch at all. You said 35 year old Wlad was better than he was when younger. Why did clinch and ride Povetkin at least 135 times?

[Kalan]

That's all biased nonsense from a big Ali fan.

Ali was super easy to hit with left hooks and Joshua isn't... AJ easily slipped and ducked follow up left hooks from Wlad that would have ripped Ali's head off.... Ali grabbed 3 X more than Wlad... Joshua hardly grabs at all... He didn't even grab after he was floored... He defended himself very well... Ali deteriorated rapidly from the many head shots he took. You'll never see that happening to Joshua if he fights another 15 years... He already has Holmes like skills with only 20 fights.

Ali wasn't easy to hit with anything until he got suspended. Wlad isn't the puncher Foreman was. Biased fan? You know nothing of my opinion from Ali. He wasn't perfect. But to claim Joshua is a better boxer is laughable. Joshua will never suffer the punishment because he wont have a two decade career. Ali clinching as an old fighter is different than his prime. Many of his so callled clinches were grabbing his opponents neck and shoulder, leaving his body exposed to be hit. Different than tying an opponent up to where they cant punch at all. You said 35 year old Wlad was better than he was when younger. Why did clinch and ride Povetkin at least 135 times?

Klitscko was 37... Povetkin was younger that's why he tied him up, but it wasn't close to 135 times... Wlad wanted to stop Povetkin's inside game.... Klitschko was point deducted, but he had so many points it didn't matter... Ali clinched more in Frazier-Ali 2 to stop Frazier and Ali got away with it... Before he got suspended Ali was decked by Banks and Cooper so he was hittable his whole career. Even Chuvalo hit Ali with a lot of clean punches, but Chuvalo would never lay a glove on Joshua and be taken out quickly...

Wlad hit harder than Foreman.... He fought much bigger and stronger men and flattened them.. He crushed men like Kubrat Pulev and Tony Thompson... Foreman couldn't even get little Jimmy Young out, who had been knocked out before... Joshua or Wladimir would flatten that little guy... Foreman coudn't get Lou Saverese out - a chinny guy if there ever was one... Foreman couldn't get Crawford Grimsley down or out... The next guy who fought Grimsley iced him in 3 seconds.

[MrGuy]

That's all biased nonsense from a big Ali fan.

Ali was super easy to hit with left hooks and Joshua isn't... AJ easily slipped and ducked follow up left hooks from Wlad that would have ripped Ali's head off.... Ali grabbed 3 X more than Wlad... Joshua hardly grabs at all... He didn't even grab after he was floored... He defended himself very well... Ali deteriorated rapidly from the many head shots he took. You'll never see that happening to Joshua if he fights another 15 years... He already has Holmes like skills with only 20 fights.

Ali wasn't easy to hit with anything until he got suspended. Wlad isn't the puncher Foreman was. Biased fan? You know nothing of my opinion from Ali. He wasn't perfect. But to claim Joshua is a better boxer is laughable. Joshua will never suffer the punishment because he wont have a two decade career. Ali clinching as an old fighter is different than his prime. Many of his so callled clinches were grabbing his opponents neck and shoulder, leaving his body exposed to be hit. Different than tying an opponent up to where they cant punch at all. You said 35 year old Wlad was better than he was when younger. Why did clinch and ride Povetkin at least 135 times?

Klitscko was 37... Povetkin was younger that's why he tied him up, but it wasn't close to 135 times... Wlad wanted to stop Povetkin's inside game.... Klitschko was point deducted, but he had so many points it didn't matter... Ali clinched more in Frazier-Ali 2 to stop Frazier and Ali got away with it... Before he got suspended Ali was decked by Banks and Cooper so he was hittable his whole career. Even Chuvalo hit Ali with a lot of clean punches, but Chuvalo would never lay a glove on Joshua and be taken out quickly...

Wlad hit harder than Foreman.... He fought much bigger and stronger men and flattened them.. He crushed men like Kubrat Pulev and Tony Thompson... Foreman couldn't even get little Jimmy Young out, who had been knocked out before... Joshua or Wladimir would flatten that little guy... Foreman coudn't get Lou Saverese out - a chinny guy if there ever was one... Foreman couldn't get Crawford Grimsley down or out... The next guy who fought Grimsley iced him in 3 seconds.

You're right. It was probably more than that. He got decked early in his career so he was hittable his whole career? Doesn't work that way. Ali received very little punishment before his suspension. Wlad hit hard. Just not as hard as Foreman. Foreman vs Grimsley was old Foreman. His opponents were bigger just not better. Foreman doesn't get taken out by Sanders, Brewster, and Purrity. Young did get ko'd in his prime. By a guy named Earnie Shavers. Young beat Foreman and Lyle. Lost and had a draw with Shavers. Lost close to Ali and Norton. Wlad fought nobody in those guys class. A new heavy thats never beat anyone like Joshua, you need to quit hyping up.

[Kalan]

You're right. It was probably more than that. He got decked early in his career so he was hittable his whole career? Doesn't work that way. Ali received very little punishment before his suspension. Wlad hit hard. Just not as hard as Foreman. Foreman vs Grimsley was old Foreman. His opponents were bigger just not better. Foreman doesn't get taken out by Sanders, Brewster, and Purrity. Young did get ko'd in his prime. By a guy named Earnie Shavers. Young beat Foreman and Lyle. Lost and had a draw with Shavers. Lost close to Ali and Norton. Wlad fought nobody in those guys class. A new heavy thats never beat anyone like Joshua, you need to quit hyping up

It was a lot less than 135 and you know it... Ali grabbed and held more times in the Frazier rematch.

And stop hyping up feather hitting Jimmy Young!!!! Young boxed the ass off Foreman but LOST 3 out of his next 4 fights including 2 losses to neophyte Ossie Ocasio... ALL Young had to do was beat greenie Cruiserweight Ossie Ocasio (10 wins) once in 2 tries to get a Title Fight with Heavyweight Champion Larry Holmes - and he fell through his ass both times...

They were billed as an elimination fights so they had no choice but to match Holmes with Ocasio… Holmes out-punched Ocasio 5 to 1, knocked him down with jabs, and knocked him out almost as easily as he vanquished Marvis Frazier – after Marvis beat up pathetic punching bag Joe Bugner, who was more hittable than Chuvalo.

Povetkin was far above the powerless, pitiful, and hittable Young... Povetkin had a stellar amateur career, won the Olympic Heavyweight Championship Gold Medal, out-boxed Chris Byrd and Eddie Chambers when he had only a few pro fights... knocked out top contender Carlos Takam, and took out super tough top contender Mike Perez in the 1st round... Povetkin is almost 39 and he’s only lost 1 fight to ATG Wladimir Klitschko... You simply hate Eastern Europeans,. You give them no credit whatever.

Wladimir was a great athlete ... but not a natural boxer with inbred fistic instincts like Vitali... WK needed a great trainer like Emmanuel Stewart to be any good. Wlad won the Olympic Heavyweight Championship on sheer size, strength, and punching power. He had no stance, jab, footwork, or timing until many years later when he got with Steward.

He turned pro at 20 and fought Puritty at 22.. He had the flu and weighed in really light at 224.. He was outweighed by 25 pounds.. He never weighed within 10 pounds of that light weight afterwards so he didn’t catch the technical problems he had. He thought it was the weight and lack of strength because he was winning every round on points til he gassed out. The Sanders fight there were no such excuses like that, because he couldn’t stop the left hand bombs... Sanders found a huge hole in his defense.

Wladimir knew he had serious problems and called Emmanuel Steward... In 3 years he was a completely retooled Heavyweight and held the Heavyweight Championship for going on 11 years, beating more southpaws than any other Heavyweight Champion... Steward pulled his stance in, brought his head back, dropped his guard down appropriately, sharpened his sloppy footwork, closed holes in his defense, and perfected his jab, straight right, and left hook.

Steward was not an infighting specialist, or a body attack guy. But he was the best ever with tall rangy boxers who had good speed and smarts. Manny had them tie up opponents on the inside because he knew most referees would say “Stop punching. Break” and physically break you so that you can reset from the outside... Grabbing and wrestling isn’t Marquis of Queensberry but everyone gets away with it... I would tell refs “Half our game is infighting. Tell that MFer to let go when he grabs and stop breaking them. Call time and take points for holding if he doesn’t let go on command.” Some refs listen, but most don’t. You can bitch your ass off and it’s like talking to a wall.