Wilfred Benitez

[Kilsby]

Ok, this man is the youngest EVER world champion across all the weight divisions.

His record has stood since 1976 when Benitez won the WBA world light welterweight title aged just 17 years 5 months & 23 days.

My question is - why has nobody beaten this record? And no smart ass comments like "its hard - that's why!"

There's plenty of additional titles around nowadays so where are the young bucks vying for a place in the record books?

[Kilsby]

Surely it would be a marketing mans dream?

The big TV companies are going to want to televise potential history being made aren't they?

And if you win - surely you have a PPV superstar with marketability on Oscar De La Hoya levels / big contracts etc

Worth a gamble don't you think?

[stujones]

Lack of man strength in most 17 year olds will be the first issue. The second issue, if there is a talent out there that could challenge it - then any decent promoter is going to think of the bigger picture and not risk it. Look how successful Alvarez is, imagine if he lost at 17..... remember Francisco Bojado - geered to be a star, geered to go for the record (or to go close to it) - never the same after he tasted defeat.

[paddy chavez]

What age can you turn pro at ? It was 17 in the UK I know some Mexicans started younger but not at top level ,I guess benitez was just a freak now fighters wait till they are 30 before a title fight.

[bennie]

Ok, this man is the youngest EVER world champion across all the weight divisions.

His record has stood since 1976 when Benitez won the WBA world light welterweight title aged just 17 years 5 months & 23 days.

My question is - why has nobody beaten this record? And no smart ass comments like "its hard - that's why!"

There's plenty of additional titles around nowadays so where is the young bucks vying for a place in the record books?

Wilfred Benitez was a natural, a genius, a freak. He was born to box because his dad, Gregorio, was one of the best trainers in the sport, schooling Esteban de Jesus, the first man to beat Roberto Duran, and Alfredo Escalera among many others. Wilfred also went on to beat Duran but because he dazzled in his teens and his early 20s, he was past his best by the time he was 24 and sadly went on and on until he fell into the abyss.

[PredatorHayds]

He’d have to come from a country without a top level amateur system.

The main country’s pay the fighters well, have top level training facilities and usually stick around for either a 2-4 year cycle.

Can only see it in the UK if a promoter offers stupid amounts of cash to get a youngster away from Team GB (Like FW with Dubois).

In all likelihood if it does happen again it will be a Mexico/Pan Am country or a Filipino/Thai at a lower weight.

[Kilsby]

Lack of man strength in most 17 year olds will be the first issue. The second issue, if there is a talent out there that could challenge it - then any decent promoter is going to think of the bigger picture and not risk it. Look how successful Alvarez is, imagine if he lost at 17..... remember Francisco Bojado - geered to be a star, geered to go for the record (or to go close to it) - never the same after he tasted defeat.

fair enough Stu - but do you really think lack of man strength is an issue? After all strength doesn't win fights, that's why its called boxing. You don't have to be bigger or stronger than the man you are facing, you just need more skills or guile.

[stujones]

Ok, this man is the youngest EVER world champion across all the weight divisions.

His record has stood since 1976 when Benitez won the WBA world light welterweight title aged just 17 years 5 months & 23 days.

My question is - why has nobody beaten this record? And no smart ass comments like "its hard - that's why!"

There's plenty of additional titles around nowadays so where is the young bucks vying for a place in the record books?

Wilfred Benitez was a natural, a genius, a freak. He was born to box because his dad, Gregorio, was one of the best trainers in the sport, schooling Esteban de Jesus, the first man to beat Roberto Duran, and Alfredo Escalera among many others. Wilfred also went on to beat Duran but because he dazzled in his teens and his early 20s, he was past his best by the time he was 24 and sadly went on and on until he fell into the abyss.

He must be in terrible health now, its been years (Decades) since he has required 24 hour nurising home care. He is clearly still a fighter now, poor man.

[stujones]

Lack of man strength in most 17 year olds will be the first issue. The second issue, if there is a talent out there that could challenge it - then any decent promoter is going to think of the bigger picture and not risk it. Look how successful Alvarez is, imagine if he lost at 17..... remember Francisco Bojado - geered to be a star, geered to go for the record (or to go close to it) - never the same after he tasted defeat.

fair enough Stu - but do you really think lack of man strength is an issue? After all strength doesn't win fights, that's why its called boxing. You don't have to be bigger or stronger than the man you are facing, you just need more skills or guile.

Yes I do, a 16 year old with all the skills in the world will feel the punches / weight / strength of a 25 year old more so than a fellow 25 year old. Yes - might have all the skill in the world to avoid this disadvantage, but again natural "man" stamina also kicks in later... that's why we don't get 16 year old Marathon champions.

Alaverex is probably the most "man like" teenager I have seen boxing (Mike Tyson aside) and he wasn't ready at 17.

[Kilsby]

Lack of man strength in most 17 year olds will be the first issue. The second issue, if there is a talent out there that could challenge it - then any decent promoter is going to think of the bigger picture and not risk it. Look how successful Alvarez is, imagine if he lost at 17..... remember Francisco Bojado - geered to be a star, geered to go for the record (or to go close to it) - never the same after he tasted defeat.

fair enough Stu - but do you really think lack of man strength is an issue? After all strength doesn't win fights, that's why its called boxing. You don't have to be bigger or stronger than the man you are facing, you just need more skills or guile.

Yes I do, a 16 year old with all the skills in the world will feel the punches / weight / strength of a 25 year old more so than a fellow 25 year old. Yes - might have all the skill in the world to avoid this disadvantage, but again natural "man" stamina also kicks in later... that's why we don't get 16 year old Marathon champions.

Alaverex is probably the most "man like" teenager I have seen boxing (Mike Tyson aside) and he wasn't ready at 17.

You don't get 16 year old marathon champions because they haven't had long enough to train to be as elite as the other athletes that are competing because they have been in education 24/7.

Nothing to do with their lung capacity or not having their "man strength" they just haven't put the hours in practicing.

[Kilsby]

Stujones,

I completely agree with your reasoning for the second part of your answer thought. Risking the fighters reputation or confidence is a valid reason. I just don't agree with your man strength argument. I think it's rubbish (no offense intended)

No man on earth can argue that Anthony Joshua isn't physically stronger than a prime Ali was - but he wouldn't beat him in a boxing match.

I could also list a dozen opponents who were physically stronger than Floyd Mayweather and would beat him in a wrestling match but they all lost to him in the ring.

Marvin Hagler was no doubt stronger than SRL and Frank Bruno probably stronger than anyone he ever fought but it doesn't win fights.

So for me, man strength is not the reason.

[stujones]

Kilsby,

Biologically our lungs do not fully develop until towards the later stages of puberty, 17 is still adolescent for many, there is usually still some growth / development to go - including our lungs. But okay, even if the reason why there has been no Marathon champion at 17 is because of lack of practice / running - why cannot this be applied to boxing.... going 36 minutes is bloody hard. Doesn't come with a 6 week training session.

In terms of Man strength, you've given some examples of "more technical / smaller" boxers vs Stronger / Slower boxers - but you are talking about it in absolute terms. Leonard would have had an easier time with a 17 year old Hagler than he did with a 30 something Hagler.... likewise I am pretty confident Hagler of 1987 would have masacared Leonard of 1974. Indeed Leonard of 1979 (23 years old) got out strengthed and out fought by a smaller, older, Duran. Would that have happened in 1984/1985 etc - no way.

Ali for me is the classic example, would Ali who got floored by Cooper survived against Frazier in 1971 or Foreman 1974. He was much faster when he fought Cooper, but for me Frazier of 71 and Foreman of 1974 would have destroyed him. Similarly would the Ali who withstood and outlasted Foreman ever been floored against Cooper? Be saying Prime for Prime Ali is better than Joshua, but Joshua is stronger is defeating the object - 17 isn't the prime of life, that's the whole point. Ali of Cleverland Williams would have wiped the floor with Joshua - would Ali of the Olympics 1960 vs Joshua of 2017?

There will always be genetic freaks who might have given it a run - Tyson being the prime example, but again he was a heck of a lot better in 1986 than he was in Olympic qualifying. Floyd might have also given it a run because, for similar reasons as Wilfred Benetiz, he was boxing from the cradle with one of the best coaches around ROGER Mayweather. But even Floyd wouldn't have had the problems Castillo gave him in his absolute pomp.

I don't want to bring myself into it, but from my limited amateur boxing experience I can vouch for it. Hardest I have ever been hit was sparring my old man as a teenager. Hardest in a fight was as a 17 year old vs a 19 year old. When I fought guys of the same age - no bother.... when I made a "comeback" post Uni (no fights but sparring) I was toying with similar weight guys who were my age or a bit younger - I was 24.... I was making so many mistakes cos I could walk through them and I used to take the piss out of them (I was a nob) - believe me it was 100% sparring also with small gloves and they wanted to knock me out.

[Kilsby]

While I agree 17 isn't anyone's prime. And 99% of the time, anyone's 25 year old version of themselves will beat a 17 year old version of themselves, it wasn't exactly the point I was trying to convey.

My point was, that why can't a 17 year old beat a 25 year old. The 17 year olds ability at that point in time may easily outstrip the 25 year olds ability at 25.

The man strength you talk about wouldn't come into it. I was trying to say you don't have to be strong to pick your way to a points decision over a physical beast do you?

[Kilsby]

So again, the question I was asking in the opening post was why has nobody (or not many) attempted it?

It's a long record to still be standing from the mid 70s!

Your second point you mentioned - was I accept, very valid.

[stujones]

While I agree 17 isn't anyone's prime. And 99% of the time, anyone's 25 year old version of themselves will beat a 17 year old version of themselves, it wasn't exactly the point I was trying to convey.

My point was, that why can't a 17 year old beat a 25 year old. The 17 year olds ability at that point in time may easily outstrip the 25 year olds ability at 25.

The man strength you talk about wouldn't come into it. I was trying to say you don't have to be strong to pick your way to a points decision over a physical beast do you?

Yes, but you have to have great stamina if you know you are going to do without the pop in your punches and the ability to absorb the shots not being quite a good and as I said, you have to be a real over developed freak to be able to do 12 rounds comfortably. Possibly yes, unlikely incredibly likely. In addition to the physical side of things, there is also the consentration side of things.

Another example, Naseem - now here was an early developer.... Outstrengthed the super strong Steve Robinson at 21/22 years of age - KO power in either hand at this age. Whilst many (including me) felt he could (and perhaps should have) been a two weight champion before fighting Robinson..... I don't think he would have won any World title until around the point of the Miceli fight in 1994 (and certainly he was ready when he beat Belcastro). He was still 19/20. At 17, he was not the 1 punch KO artist and easier to hit than that year or so later. It would have come too soon for him in 1992/1993.

[Kilsby]

The instant noteriarty it would bring in the boxing community, coupled with the internet age and potential wealth and the additional titles on offer today, then I'm surprised many more haven't took a shot at entering the history books.

You don't have to dethrone the perceived hardest champion do you?

[stujones]

So again, the question I was asking in the opening post was why has nobody (or not many) attempted it?

It's a long record to still be standing from the mid 70s!

Your second point you mentioned - was I accept, very valid.

To answer it bluntly - there has been nobody ready enough...... tell me a fighter who you have seen at 17 and you've thought "yes their ready for a title fight now". I've listed quite a few of the more well known early developers - they weren't ready at 17.

Marco Antonio Barrera turned pro at something 15 and is possibly the closest - he was domestic pro champ at around that age - but he was physically developing, as soon he was ready to step up in class, he had to move up in weight. He "ran out of time" to do it a Flyweight. I don't think he would have been ready anyway - he didn't have things all his own way at domestic championship level.... again it was more 19/20 when he was ready.

It takes amazing fortune and everything to challenge it. How many countries don't allow boxers to turn pro at 16/18. Then they've got to almost stop growing at 15/16 so they can build up the rankings in one weight division, and they've got to be as good as world class fighters at their prime, when not at their prime themselves.

Perhaps Mayweather might have been, but he was already two old when he turned pro..... he's the only fighter who I think might have won a world title in his debut (whose not in his late 20 with 200 odd semi pro fights).

[Taansend]

Nice thread.

So many reasons. "Man strength" is one of the reasons. Not the only reason but to discount it is daft.

But Benitez was a one off. He had 11 fights before he was 16 & headlined a show at the Felt Forum 4 days after his 16th birthday.

He was 23-0 before he reached 17.

As someone mentioned fighters who show early promise (early teens) are well looked after & have no need to turn pro at 15.

Many countries won't allow you to turn pro until 16 or 18.

I think the current youngest champ is Devid Benavidez who turned pro at 16 & won a title at 20.

How many in history have won a title before they were 20? I'd be shock if it was more than 5 although now I've said that it will probably be about 20

[ShadrachSimmo]

Lack of man strength in most 17 year olds will be the first issue. The second issue, if there is a talent out there that could challenge it - then any decent promoter is going to think of the bigger picture and not risk it. Look how successful Alvarez is, imagine if he lost at 17..... remember Francisco Bojado - geered to be a star, geered to go for the record (or to go close to it) - never the same after he tasted defeat.

Sums it up really. Boxing is primarily a business now. What Benitez done will never be topped. Any talented kids out there will be brought along slowly with money taking precedence over titles/success etc.

[stujones]

The instant noteriarty it would bring in the boxing community, coupled with the internet age and potential wealth and the additional titles on offer today, then I'm surprised many more haven't took a shot at entering the history books.

You don't have to dethrone the perceived hardest champion do you?

No but Heavyweight devision aside currently, most of the big 4 (or 5 if you count WBA ordinary) aren't bad. Yes perhaps 17 year old Mike Tyson could KO Manuel Charr - but the fighters who were champion when Tyson was 17 were a lot better than Charr - Larry Holmes, Greg Page etc.

Perhaps you can get a promoter to "create" a belt, like that journeyman did the Mickey Mouse title about 15 years ago.... but will that even bring noterity - it will just be considered a joke.

[Kilsby]

So again, the question I was asking in the opening post was why has nobody (or not many) attempted it?

It's a long record to still be standing from the mid 70s!

Your second point you mentioned - was I accept, very valid.

To answer it bluntly - there has been nobody ready enough...... tell me a fighter who you have seen at 17 and you've thought "yes their ready for a title fight now". I've listed quite a few of the more well known early developers - they weren't ready at 17.

Marco Antonio Barrera turned pro at something 15 and is possibly the closest - he was domestic pro champ at around that age - but he was physically developing, as soon he was ready to step up in class, he had to move up in weight. He "ran out of time" to do it a Flyweight. I don't think he would have been ready anyway - he didn't have things all his own way at domestic championship level.... again it was more 19/20 when he was ready.

It takes amazing fortune and everything to challenge it. How many countries don't allow boxers to turn pro at 16/18. Then they've got to almost stop growing at 15/16 so they can build up the rankings in one weight division, and they've got to be as good as world class fighters at their prime, when not at their prime themselves.

Perhaps Mayweather might have been, but he was already two old when he turned pro..... he's the only fighter who I think might have won a world title in his debut (whose not in his late 20 with 200 odd semi pro fights).

A good hypothesis and interesting conversation....

But could a renowned puncher like Gerald McClellan or Julian Jackson at 17 not have had a shot at one of the title holders? Especially if one was deemed chinny at the time? A 50/50 or you or me scenario at worst, no?

Or Roy Jones... Surely he was quick enough in his youth not to get dragged into a war/battle?

[Kilsby]

The instant noteriarty it would bring in the boxing community, coupled with the internet age and potential wealth and the additional titles on offer today, then I'm surprised many more haven't took a shot at entering the history books.

You don't have to dethrone the perceived hardest champion do you?

No but Heavyweight devision aside currently, most of the big 4 (or 5 if you count WBA ordinary) aren't bad. Yes perhaps 17 year old Mike Tyson could KO Manuel Charr - but the fighters who were champion when Tyson was 17 were a lot better than Charr - Larry Holmes, Greg Page etc.

Perhaps you can get a promoter to "create" a belt, like that journeyman did the Mickey Mouse title about 15 years ago.... but will that even bring noterity - it will just be considered a joke.

I've recently heard Mike Tyson say in an interview he believed he was physically ready to beat Holmes at just 16

[Boxing Prospect]

Nice thread.

So many reasons. "Man strength" is one of the reasons. Not the only reason but to discount it is daft.

But Benitez was a one off. He had 11 fights before he was 16 & headlined a show at the Felt Forum 4 days after his 16th birthday.

He was 23-0 before he reached 17.

As someone mentioned fighters who show early promise (early teens) are well looked after & have no need to turn pro at 15.

Many countries won't allow you to turn pro until 16 or 18.

I think the current youngest champ is Devid Benavidez who turned pro at 16 & won a title at 20.

How many in history have won a title before they were 20? I'd be shock if it was more than 5 although now I've said that it will probably be about 20

At least 5-

Benitez 17
H.Ioka 18
Tanaka 19
Al McCoy 19
Netrnoi Sor Vorasingh 19

[Taansend]

Nice thread.

So many reasons. "Man strength" is one of the reasons. Not the only reason but to discount it is daft.

But Benitez was a one off. He had 11 fights before he was 16 & headlined a show at the Felt Forum 4 days after his 16th birthday.

He was 23-0 before he reached 17.

As someone mentioned fighters who show early promise (early teens) are well looked after & have no need to turn pro at 15.

Many countries won't allow you to turn pro until 16 or 18.

I think the current youngest champ is Devid Benavidez who turned pro at 16 & won a title at 20.

How many in history have won a title before they were 20? I'd be shock if it was more than 5 although now I've said that it will probably be about 20

At least 5-

Benitez 17
H.Ioka 18
Tanaka 19
Al McCoy 19
Netrnoi Sor Vorasingh 19

Thanks

[Kilsby]

Nice thread.

So many reasons. "Man strength" is one of the reasons. Not the only reason but to discount it is daft.

But Benitez was a one off. He had 11 fights before he was 16 & headlined a show at the Felt Forum 4 days after his 16th birthday.

He was 23-0 before he reached 17.

As someone mentioned fighters who show early promise (early teens) are well looked after & have no need to turn pro at 15.

Many countries won't allow you to turn pro until 16 or 18.

I think the current youngest champ is Devid Benavidez who turned pro at 16 & won a title at 20.

How many in history have won a title before they were 20? I'd be shock if it was more than 5 although now I've said that it will probably be about 20

At least 5-

Benitez 17
H.Ioka 18
Tanaka 19
Al McCoy 19
Netrnoi Sor Vorasingh 19

Thanks

Think we could have another thread here - world champions under 20!