Wilfred Benitez

[stujones]

So again, the question I was asking in the opening post was why has nobody (or not many) attempted it?

It's a long record to still be standing from the mid 70s!

Your second point you mentioned - was I accept, very valid.

To answer it bluntly - there has been nobody ready enough...... tell me a fighter who you have seen at 17 and you've thought "yes their ready for a title fight now". I've listed quite a few of the more well known early developers - they weren't ready at 17.

Marco Antonio Barrera turned pro at something 15 and is possibly the closest - he was domestic pro champ at around that age - but he was physically developing, as soon he was ready to step up in class, he had to move up in weight. He "ran out of time" to do it a Flyweight. I don't think he would have been ready anyway - he didn't have things all his own way at domestic championship level.... again it was more 19/20 when he was ready.

It takes amazing fortune and everything to challenge it. How many countries don't allow boxers to turn pro at 16/18. Then they've got to almost stop growing at 15/16 so they can build up the rankings in one weight division, and they've got to be as good as world class fighters at their prime, when not at their prime themselves.

Perhaps Mayweather might have been, but he was already two old when he turned pro..... he's the only fighter who I think might have won a world title in his debut (whose not in his late 20 with 200 odd semi pro fights).

A good hypothesis and interesting conversation....

But could a renowned puncher like Gerald McClellan or Julian Jackson at 17 not have had a shot at one of the title holders? Especially if one was deemed chinny at the time? A 50/50 or you or me scenario at worst, no?

Or Roy Jones... Surely he was quick enough in his youth not to get dragged into a war/battle?

Scenario 1 - hypothetically perhaps but I was say its a slim chance because I don't think they would have had the same power at 17 - and again, if there is a well known chinny champion, then he aint going to be champion for long and its likely another guy would get to him first.

Scenario 2 - possibly more likely, although I never saw Roy in his youth.... Perhaps Roy of the 1988 Olympics might have beaten Liam Smith when he was champion (sorry to Liam but I would say he was the worst big 4 world champion at or around that weight devision) - however, I think it would be 50/50 and that was 20 year old Roy. I could still see something like Otis Grant old manning Ryan Rhodes in a Liam 2015 vs Roy 1988 fight and that is not Roy 1984/1985. Again if a champion is so poor that people think a 17 year old can beat him, aint going to be champion for long.

[stujones]

The instant noteriarty it would bring in the boxing community, coupled with the internet age and potential wealth and the additional titles on offer today, then I'm surprised many more haven't took a shot at entering the history books.

You don't have to dethrone the perceived hardest champion do you?

No but Heavyweight devision aside currently, most of the big 4 (or 5 if you count WBA ordinary) aren't bad. Yes perhaps 17 year old Mike Tyson could KO Manuel Charr - but the fighters who were champion when Tyson was 17 were a lot better than Charr - Larry Holmes, Greg Page etc.

Perhaps you can get a promoter to "create" a belt, like that journeyman did the Mickey Mouse title about 15 years ago.... but will that even bring noterity - it will just be considered a joke.

I've recently heard Mike Tyson say in an interview he believed he was physically ready to beat Holmes at just 16

To be fair, I wouldn't have put anything past Tyson - but he was a freak.... not just a strong teen but had his full man strength at 20 years of age (and a bit younger). Tyson might have been the one, but it is ifs, buts and maybes.

[Taansend]

At least 5-

Benitez 17
H.Ioka 18
Tanaka 19
Al McCoy 19
Netrnoi Sor Vorasingh 19

Thanks

Think we could have another thread here - world champions under 20!

I'd love to know the answer.

[handsofstone]

Ive seen a lot of Benitez fights, the ones with Leonard, Duran, Hearns, Cervantes, Palomino, Hope and Moore off the top of my head, an absolute master technician

The fight against Antonio Cervantes when he became champ at 17 is incredible, highly recommended for anyone who hasn't seen it yet, Cervantes had been a long reigning champ and the way Benitez dealt with him was sublime, beautiful jab, easily avoiding Cervantes big right hands and comfortably dealing with anything he brought with ease

Really mature performance for one so young

[stujones]

A pet hate of mine is Benitez is never part of the fab four...wish he would have got that adulation. He scores as many wins against fab four fighters as Duran.

[Espada]

Also remember that Benitez won the world title from Cervantes a genuine world champion (HOF) who had already made 9 defences of the title and then won it back after Benitez had vacated it,

He then went up in weight and beat Palomino who was the genuine best of the division at the time, and Wilfred handled him with ease.

He then Went up and beat Maurice Hope and became the youngest 3 weight world champ ever at the age of 22

This is the time when it was hard to win one title, never mind the hundreds that are on offer now.

This would never be done at that level again IMO

[handsofstone]

Also remember that Benitez won the world title from Cervantes a genuine world champion (HOF) who had already made 9 defences of the title and then won it back after Benitez had vacated it,

He then went up in weight and beat Palomino who was the genuine best of the division at the time, and Wilfred handled him with ease.

He then Went up and beat Maurice Hope and became the youngest 3 weight world champ ever at the age of 22

This is the time when it was hard to win one title, never mind the hundreds that are on offer now.

This would never be done at that level again IMO

Benitez absolutely schooled both Cervantes and Palomino but had to settle for SDs

[skanksta]

Lack of man strength in most 17 year olds will be the first issue. The second issue, if there is a talent out there that could challenge it - then any decent promoter is going to think of the bigger picture and not risk it. Look how successful Alvarez is, imagine if he lost at 17..... remember Francisco Bojado - geered to be a star, geered to go for the record (or to go close to it) - never the same after he tasted defeat.

fair enough Stu - but do you really think lack of man strength is an issue? After all strength doesn't win fights, that's why its called boxing. You don't have to be bigger or stronger than the man you are facing, you just need more skills or guile.

It's just a very rare athlete that is able to produce their peak performance before they're 20 years old. Wayne Rooney, MIke Tyson, Boris Becker stand out because they're so unusual. Maybe about 1% of people would beat they're 25-35 year old self @ 17 !

[bennie]

Benitez was actually a bit 'chinny' but is defence was so incredible that only a handful of fighters were able to expose that chin, such as Bruce Curry and Tommy Hearns. He also hit much harder than people give him credit for, particularly once he moved up from light-welterweight. He rocked Leonard and Duran and his breakdown of Maurice Hope is an exercise in brutality.

[Tomasino]

While I agree 17 isn't anyone's prime. And 99% of the time, anyone's 25 year old version of themselves will beat a 17 year old version of themselves, it wasn't exactly the point I was trying to convey.

My point was, that why can't a 17 year old beat a 25 year old. The 17 year olds ability at that point in time may easily outstrip the 25 year olds ability at 25.

The man strength you talk about wouldn't come into it. I was trying to say you don't have to be strong to pick your way to a points decision over a physical beast do you?

Of course you do. You are answering your own question really. The reason it’s not been done again is that it’s very difficult for a 17 year old to compete with a man. Like Stu I have limited amateur experience and can vouch for the ‘man against boy’ thing.

We’re you the 10000 hours practice guy? Apologies if not...

[tobyh5]

A pet hate of mine is Benitez is never part of the fab four...wish he would have got that adulation. He scores as many wins against fab four fighters as Duran.

I know what you mean, but the Fab Four all fought each other and apart from Hagler, they fought each other more than once.

[stujones]

A pet hate of mine is Benitez is never part of the fab four...wish he would have got that adulation. He scores as many wins against fab four fighters as Duran.

I know what you mean, but the Fab Four all fought each other and apart from Hagler, they fought each other more than once.

I know what you are saying, but just when they did that "Champions Forever" thing which was around the same time they had fighters there that never fought each other - but it was promoted in a way that they did all fight each other.

[tobyh5]

A pet hate of mine is Benitez is never part of the fab four...wish he would have got that adulation. He scores as many wins against fab four fighters as Duran.

I know what you mean, but the Fab Four all fought each other and apart from Hagler, they fought each other more than once.

I know what you are saying, but just when they did that "Champions Forever" thing which was around the same time they had fighters there that never fought each other - but it was promoted in a way that they did all fight each other.

Yeah great point, few gaps there with Holmes only fighting two of them and Frazier and Norton never clashing (was that due to a friendship or as both trained by Futch?)

[orbtastic]

Both, I believe.

I've seen it many times over the years, it always seemed like an Ali love-in to me, he's literally at the centre of it. Foreman is wonderfully disarming in it.

[banjo]

Great fighter even though he was known for not taking his training seriously.

[stujones]

I know what you mean, but the Fab Four all fought each other and apart from Hagler, they fought each other more than once.

I know what you are saying, but just when they did that "Champions Forever" thing which was around the same time they had fighters there that never fought each other - but it was promoted in a way that they did all fight each other.

Yeah great point, few gaps there with Holmes only fighting two of them and Frazier and Norton never clashing (was that due to a friendship or as both trained by Futch?)

Yeah, I just felt it would have been nice to have included Benetez, because he was the champion who the first of the Fab 4 beat and he continued and held his own against all of them (bar Hagler).... and really he had less defeats against them than Duran and he didn't suffer a 2nd round blow out against Hearns. I think you can make a legitimate case for Benetez being a better Light Middle than Duran.

[Kilsby]

While I agree 17 isn't anyone's prime. And 99% of the time, anyone's 25 year old version of themselves will beat a 17 year old version of themselves, it wasn't exactly the point I was trying to convey.

My point was, that why can't a 17 year old beat a 25 year old. The 17 year olds ability at that point in time may easily outstrip the 25 year olds ability at 25.

The man strength you talk about wouldn't come into it. I was trying to say you don't have to be strong to pick your way to a points decision over a physical beast do you?

Of course you do. You are answering your own question really. The reason it’s not been done again is that it’s very difficult for a 17 year old to compete with a man. Like Stu I have limited amateur experience and can vouch for the ‘man against boy’ thing.


We’re you the 10000 hours practice guy? Apologies if not...

I'm not the 10,000 hour person as I've never read the book.

But I do indeed think practice is more relevant than a so called 'talent'

[mickey1975]

Benitez was a freak. And Tyson. My boy had never lost a round in the schoolboys, fought for a challenge belt against a Super League player who was 25 (he was 18), no head guard, etc. Schooled him first two rounds. Third, he was done. He wasn't even getting caught, just the presence of a big strong man walking you down, laying on you, old manning you. He still scraped through but was done after! Learned loads that night.

[banjo]

I've said this before but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if guys like Benitez and Tyson turned out to be slightly older than their reported age, you know like those African footballers who turn out to be 10 years older than they are.

[stujones]

I've said this before but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if guys like Benitez and Tyson turned out to be slightly older than their reported age, you know like those African footballers who turn out to be 10 years older than they are.

Very feasible - both burned out at very young ages.

[tobyh5]

I've said this before but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if guys like Benitez and Tyson turned out to be slightly older than their reported age, you know like those African footballers who turn out to be 10 years older than they are.

Benitez maybe, Tyson no. His age is pretty much verified via siblings ages (and his age difference to them), his school records and which academic year he was in, records shown and verified in his court appearances and prison sentences as well as acknowledged age when he was sent to the reform school etc.

[stujones]

I've said this before but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if guys like Benitez and Tyson turned out to be slightly older than their reported age, you know like those African footballers who turn out to be 10 years older than they are.

Benitez maybe, Tyson no. His age is pretty much verified via siblings ages (and his age difference to them), his school records and which academic year he was in, records shown and verified in his court appearances and prison sentences as well as acknowledged age when he was sent to the reform school etc.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but all of this could be altered - wasn't there a case of this school Basketball player, who studied in School - was claiming to be 16 when he was actually in his 30's. So his academic year and his real age were WAY off. It is on youtube somewhere - it is embarrasing how he was never checked - he had a massive beard and was claiming to be 15 years of age.

When it comes to Benitez, he certainly looked a lot older than Leonard facially when they fought, not 2 years younger.

[tobyh5]

I've said this before but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if guys like Benitez and Tyson turned out to be slightly older than their reported age, you know like those African footballers who turn out to be 10 years older than they are.

Benitez maybe, Tyson no. His age is pretty much verified via siblings ages (and his age difference to them), his school records and which academic year he was in, records shown and verified in his court appearances and prison sentences as well as acknowledged age when he was sent to the reform school etc.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but all of this could be altered - wasn't there a case of this school Basketball player, who studied in School - was claiming to be 16 when he was actually in his 30's. So his academic year and his real age were WAY off. It is on youtube somewhere - it is embarrasing how he was never checked - he had a massive beard and was claiming to be 15 years of age.

When it comes to Benitez, he certainly looked a lot older than Leonard facially when they fought, not 2 years younger.

He could be older but I lean towards not, like I say, the siblings ages are part of the picture. Denise was his older sister, that is known, and she died in 1990 when she was 24 and when he was 23. If his age is wrong, suddenly he is an older brother, not a younger one and it is documented in all manner of reports and things that he was the baby of the family

[mickey1975]

I got told Whartons age was lied about on here.... I've just been to his 50th he's keeping up a good story!

[Cent0089]

you must earn title shot by beating some decent oponents. It is hard for a person who just turned pro. Even boxers with losing records can be experienced fighters, dangerous for such a young kid. And there is other task - you must beat world champion. And despite so many belts, world champs are elite athletes and beating them is almost impossible for 16 or 17 years old kids IMO