Holyfield (1988) vs. Usyk (2018) at CW ?

[SenorPipino]

Why do people insist on placing a current fighter who is still developing in a fantasy March up with an atg????
This frustrates the crap out of me.
Let's let his career play out a bit before we get into atg discussions

But it's fair game under current standards.

You say that Usyk is still developing and that's true.

But once he wins a world title--an accomplishment supposedly representative of achieving boxing's pinnacle---then he's open for comparison.

It's unfortunate that in this era so many fighters are able to snag championship belts with practically nothing more than novice professional experience.

Usyk has just 14 pro fights and wins a world title in only his 10th bout.

In the not too long ago past, that was practically unheard of. Today it's an all too common occurrence.

But you can't have it both ways. If you're going to strap on a world title belt, a fighters' deficiencies can't be casually dismissed or ignored simply because he's "inexperienced" or "hasn't developed."

No matter how few fights you have, if you're thrust on to the world title stage and you're talented enough to win one, then there's no reason to eschew comparisons to any champion who came before.

Yes yes we all know that you need to beat the mandatory 15 taxi drivers before you can call yourself a true pro and start to aim for the title

Many of the eastern european boxers go pro later than many of the americans do. They are more experienced and can jump right in the top mix when they do go for the pro ranks. Nothing wrong with that

They're more experienced at the amateur level.

Professional boxing can be a different ball of wax.

Just ask Lomachenko who discovered how deep the water was at the professional level when he spent 12 rounds being roughed up by the veteran Salido.

It was quite a shocking baptism into the professional ranks for Lomachenko. He discovered that genteel amateur boxing doesn't fully prepare you for the rough and tumble world of the professionals.

But what he rudely learned in that post graduate defeat that night, has undoubtedly served Lomachenko well for the future.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Holyfield was special.

- Yeah, special shortbus dumb and couldn't box a lick as he showed against Qawi and Bowe, Ruiz, Sherman Williams, well, maybe dumber the more apt description.

Keep the candles burning long enough, and maybe you sillys can come up with a stock journeyman cruiser he could beat.

Yeah, but you're a Holyfield hater from was waaaaaay back.

What's the matter? Did he once ignore your begging, whiney request for an autograph when you were just a wee lad still wetting your jammies?

- Sounds like you have recent first hand experience in being a wetting wee-wee lad.

For the umpteenth time for the record, I loved fighters like Ali, Leonard, Lewis, ect, and Field when he was still Holyfield and not a roided buttinsky robot. All but Lewis turned out to be a fraud, and Lewis sold his soul to DKing to exit boxing like a lamb, not a lion.

You're welcome to show me the Field match where he exhibits sublime the boxing skills you wee-wee lads claim for him. Sure, for a few journeymen, but not even that once the PEDs were no longer effective when all he could do was brawl with no power for his life and hope his chin held out. Sorta like you wishing on one hand and spitting on the other to see which hand holds the truth.

[DrDuke]

It is early to compare, today's Usyk is not completed yet.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Holyfield was clearly the greatest cruiserweight that ever lived - you could argue that Marciano was also, given he consistently weighed less than the current cruiser limit, and the old one in fact.

At cruiserweight Holyfield was a demolition machine he was impossible to hurt, and possessed incredible stamina and output.

Anybody who thinks Holyfield couldn't box is an idiot - he could - but he enjoyed going into the trenches, even with much bigger men, because he knew he was tougher than the other guy.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- So tough and superior boxing he had to be admitted the hospital after stumpy Qawi beat him a fresh leaking one and almost died.

So tough and superior boxing he had to retire after Moorer whooped claiming a hard heart. Then he came back so shot the NY commish revoked his license to box resulting in Don King passing him around like a whore to the Russians for peanut purses.

So tough and superior boxing that he still had the last core of his idolaters on this board claiming the Klitschkos were ducking him when he didn't even have a license to box and couldn't even out box a 40 year old journeyman Sherman Williams and needed referee intervention to save him from a KO loss.

Yeah, I know, it's all Hello Kitty soft lads in Candyland where Field was tougher than than that preWW1 used tire laying in their field of dreams and boxed better than Sugar Ray Robinson, Joe Gans and Benny Leonard combined.

[ValMar]

- So tough and superior boxing he had to be admitted the hospital after stumpy Qawi beat him a fresh leaking one and almost died.

So tough and superior boxing he had to retire after Moorer whooped claiming a hard heart. Then he came back so shot the NY commish revoked his license to box resulting in Don King passing him around like a whore to the Russians for peanut purses.

So tough and superior boxing that he still had the last core of his idolaters on this board claiming the Klitschkos were ducking him when he didn't even have a license to box and couldn't even out box a 40 year old journeyman Sherman Williams and needed referee intervention to save him from a KO loss.

Yeah, I know, it's all Hello Kitty soft lads in Candyland where Field was tougher than than that preWW1 used tire laying in their field of dreams and boxed better than Sugar Ray Robinson, Joe Gans and Benny Leonard combined.

Hatred, pure hatred.

[candyslim]

Well judging from opinions on here, Usyk would have no chance, in fact I'd agree with the consensus, but it's not a fair comparison because we know what Holyfield could do against much bigger elite fighters - with Usyk there's only the Joyce fight with which to compare him against a behemoth, and at that time he hadn't even turned pro. He made a damned fine start though.

To make it fair you would need to compare Usyk of today with Holyfield as a cruiserweight shortly before he moved up to heavyweight, and this is also skewed because you cannot expunge your memory of his accomplishments at heavyweight, without some serious brain surgery ... which seems a bit drastic and unnecessary even for some of you lot

I think Usyk is awesome. He'll stand right in front of you and defy you to hit him. If you're as good as Briedis, you'll manage it sometimes, but you'll be made to miss a lot. Asked to choose, I'd pick Holy too but then I'm no better at unlearning what I know than you are.

When he hangs 'em up then we can make a fairer assessment.

[SenorPipino]

I don't just make a decision based on Holyfield's accomplishments as a heavyweight.

I don't think Usyk has encountered any cruiserweight who was remotely as formidable as the highly regarded Dwight Qawi was in their first 1986 bout.

Nicknamed the Camden Buzzsaw, the champion Qawi lived up to his name that afternoon, throwing more than 1,000 punches in a tremendous 15 round bout.

What was impressive was that Holyfield, who had some question marks regarding his stamina early in his career, went toe to toe with the Buzzsaw and actually outworked him, throwing nearly 1300 punches.

Amazing for a cruiserweight.

You just can't compare anyone Usyk has faced to Qawi, the 2-time conqueror of Saad Muhammad and touted prison inmate James Scott. He also KOd ex light heavyweight king Mike Rossman.

But Holyfield was more than Qawi's equal in that scintillating war. In only his 12th professional fight, he stamped himself as one of boxing's outstanding warriors and an entrant in the P4P derby.
.

[IKSRTFO]

Well judging from opinions on here, Usyk would have no chance, in fact I'd agree with the consensus, but it's not a fair comparison because we know what Holyfield could do against much bigger elite fighters - with Usyk there's only the Joyce fight with which to compare him against a behemoth, and at that time he hadn't even turned pro. He made a damned fine start though.

To make it fair you would need to compare Usyk of today with Holyfield as a cruiserweight shortly before he moved up to heavyweight, and this is also skewed because you cannot expunge your memory of his accomplishments at heavyweight, without some serious brain surgery ... which seems a bit drastic and unnecessary even for some of you lot

I think Usyk is awesome. He'll stand right in front of you and defy you to hit him. If you're as good as Briedis, you'll manage it sometimes, but you'll be made to miss a lot. Asked to choose, I'd pick Holy too but then I'm no better at unlearning what I know than you are.

When he hangs 'em up then we can make a fairer assessment.

Because those people are judging Usyk off "the eye test" and not off what he's done which his career just got started. If we're simply going by eye tests, then Ryan Garcia would beat Diego Corrales.

[jamamb]

Well judging from opinions on here, Usyk would have no chance, in fact I'd agree with the consensus, but it's not a fair comparison because we know what Holyfield could do against much bigger elite fighters - with Usyk there's only the Joyce fight with which to compare him against a behemoth, and at that time he hadn't even turned pro. He made a damned fine start though.

To make it fair you would need to compare Usyk of today with Holyfield as a cruiserweight shortly before he moved up to heavyweight, and this is also skewed because you cannot expunge your memory of his accomplishments at heavyweight, without some serious brain surgery ... which seems a bit drastic and unnecessary even for some of you lot

I think Usyk is awesome. He'll stand right in front of you and defy you to hit him. If you're as good as Briedis, you'll manage it sometimes, but you'll be made to miss a lot. Asked to choose, I'd pick Holy too but then I'm no better at unlearning what I know than you are.

When he hangs 'em up then we can make a fairer assessment.

Because those people are judging Usyk off "the eye test" and not off what he's done which his career just got started. If we're simply going by eye tests, then Ryan Garcia would beat Diego Corrales.

usyks actually done quite a bit, you cant go by number of fights when someones been moved at such a fast pace, and holy didnt have many more fights than him at cw anyway. usyks already beaten arguably 2 top 3 opponents and others in the top 10. on record he already belongs in historical cw discussions when you look at what else the others in it did at the weight

a guy like ryan garcias just been moved at the typical prospect, can crushing rate and thats a vastly bigger gap between what hes done and what atgs of his weight have done

in fact, its just as much the eye test and not the resume test at cruiser which tells me holy was simply on another level to anyone else who fought there. the man was an A in pretty much every area

[Ilya Muromets]

Boxing is much tougher and competitive now than it was then. It is much more of a real international sport now than it was then. Holyfield only faced two Russian or eastern Europeans in his whole career, Valuev and Sultan Ibragamov, and they both beat him. Usyk would too.

[candyslim]

I don't just make a decision based on Holyfield's accomplishments as a heavyweight.

I don't think Usyk has encountered any cruiserweight who was remotely as formidable as the highly regarded Dwight Qawi was in their first 1986 bout.

Nicknamed the Camden Buzzsaw, the champion Qawi lived up to his name that afternoon, throwing more than 1,000 punches in a tremendous 15 round bout.

What was impressive was that Holyfield, who had some question marks regarding his stamina early in his career, went toe to toe with the Buzzsaw and actually outworked him, throwing nearly 1300 punches.

Amazing for a cruiserweight.

You just can't compare anyone Usyk has faced to Qawi, the 2-time conqueror of Saad Muhammad and touted prison inmate James Scott. He also KOd ex light heavyweight king Mike Rossman.

But Holyfield was more than Qawi's equal in that scintillating war. In only his 12th professional fight, he stamped himself as one of boxing's outstanding warriors and an entrant in the P4P derby.
.

Yes SP That was a special era you've taken me back to, I remember when they were Dwight Braxton, Matt Franklin, and Eddie Gregory . James Scott bringing world class boxing to the Rahway prison ffs, amazing stuff.

The point of my post was not to decry Holyfield's achievements in any way, as I hoped I'd made clear - I followed his career since he was robbed at the Olympics, I'd not heard of him before those games. He is without doubt one of my all-time favourite heavyweight champs never mind cruiserweight.

At cruiserweight he hasn't really had anyone to challenge his status (sorry David but you don't come close). Usyk is just starting out. His accomplishments are a way short of Evander's to date even at cruiserweight but he's working on it. I expect him to overcome Gassiev (or Dorticos but I would think Gassiev). Winning this tournament is pretty good when the division is regarded as one of the strongest around and his career is only in its infancy.

I'm just saying it's not a fair comparison to make at this time.

[ValMar]

I have not any dilemma considering CW all time list .

1. Holyfield
2. Haye
3. Usyk

I suppose Usyk might be No. 2 soon, if he is able to become the winner of WBSS..

[jamamb]

usyk and haye have similar quality cw records but haye did look beastly at times at cw and obviously had a much bigger punch. i think if usyk wins the tournament hell have better names on his cruiser record, and then even more so if he beats lebedev after, but on ability haye may well have been better

briedis
glowacki
huck
mchunu
hunter

mormeck
maccrinelli
fragomeni
gurov
rossitto?

[ValMar]

usyk and haye have similar quality cw records but haye did look beastly at times at cw and obviously had a much bigger punch. i think if usyk wins the tournament hell have better names on his cruiser record, and then even more so if he beats lebedev after, but on ability haye may well have been better

briedis
glowacki
huck
mchunu
hunter

mormeck
maccrinelli
fragomeni
gurov
rossitto?

I think Usyk has much more heart and a little bit better stamina than Haye. Haye is the stronger one, no doubts....
Considering the better names at CW Record, I would vote for even, just now.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Well judging from opinions on here, Usyk would have no chance, in fact I'd agree with the consensus, but it's not a fair comparison because we know what Holyfield could do against much bigger elite fighters -

- Usyk is 14-0 and would have to finish out at 12-10-2 to match Field against much bigger, elite fighters.

If you nitwits would stop spamming the forum with your gushing schoolboy love of Field, you wouldn't have to endure his obvious deficiencies that anyone can see. He didn't enter the heavy division for those obvious deficiencies in the beginning, and going life and death against a shot Dokes who was one punched into oblivion by Coetzee is the poster bout for those limitations.

I'm still waiting for you nellies to cite the one bout against a halfway elite opponent where Field showed he had boxing skills more than a club fighter on the juice. Gonna put out Vinny Maddalone as a poor man's elite where Field showed he could box some against a face first club fighter.

And for a little perspective since you expert wannabes want to cite legacy, Bob Fitzsimmons has legacy out the Kazoo and P4P well over these two and a better fighter than the lot of them combined, but he wouldn't stand a chance against either. Hope the majority of you don't drive or vote or have kids since your judgments are pathetically flawed and would be a menace to society at large.

[Best Coast]

Holyfield was special.

- Yeah, special shortbus dumb and couldn't box a lick as he showed against Qawi and Bowe, Ruiz, Sherman Williams, well, maybe dumber the more apt description.

Keep the candles burning long enough, and maybe you sillys can come up with a stock journeyman cruiser he could beat.

You apparently graduated from the short bus to the clown car!!

Holy was a natural cruiser who would have held the world CW title for a decade or longer if he hadnt moved up against natural super HWs like Bowe and Lewis. By the time Evander fought Ruiz he was totally shot and pushing 40.

[Best Coast]

I don't just make a decision based on Holyfield's accomplishments as a heavyweight.

I don't think Usyk has encountered any cruiserweight who was remotely as formidable as the highly regarded Dwight Qawi was in their first 1986 bout.

Nicknamed the Camden Buzzsaw, the champion Qawi lived up to his name that afternoon, throwing more than 1,000 punches in a tremendous 15 round bout.

What was impressive was that Holyfield, who had some question marks regarding his stamina early in his career, went toe to toe with the Buzzsaw and actually outworked him, throwing nearly 1300 punches.

Amazing for a cruiserweight.

You just can't compare anyone Usyk has faced to Qawi, the 2-time conqueror of Saad Muhammad and touted prison inmate James Scott. He also KOd ex light heavyweight king Mike Rossman.

But Holyfield was more than Qawi's equal in that scintillating war. In only his 12th professional fight, he stamped himself as one of boxing's outstanding warriors and an entrant in the P4P derby.

Excellent points...not only was Qawi a formidable Hall-of-Famer himself, he twice DESTROYED a legit HOFer in Saad!!

Holyfield KO10 Usyk (Evander up 8-2 at time of stoppage)

[jamesmcdonnell]

Holyfield was special.

- Yeah, special shortbus dumb and couldn't box a lick as he showed against Qawi and Bowe, Ruiz, Sherman Williams, well, maybe dumber the more apt description.

Keep the candles burning long enough, and maybe you sillys can come up with a stock journeyman cruiser he could beat.

You apparently graduated from the short bus to the clown car!!

Holy was a natural cruiser who would have held the world CW title for a decade or longer if he hadnt moved up against natural super HWs like Bowe and Lewis. By the time Evander fought Ruiz he was totally shot and pushing 40.

That's the thing, even a shot Holyfield was tough as nails.

Holyfield could have ruled cruiser for as long as he saw fit, but he wanted the heavyweight title. Usky has done nothing to suggest so far he would have had his beating. Even past his peak, Holyfield gave a prime Lewis a lot of trouble in both fights.

[Boxing Writer]

- Yeah, special shortbus dumb and couldn't box a lick as he showed against Qawi and Bowe, Ruiz, Sherman Williams, well, maybe dumber the more apt description.

Keep the candles burning long enough, and maybe you sillys can come up with a stock journeyman cruiser he could beat.

You apparently graduated from the short bus to the clown car!!

Holy was a natural cruiser who would have held the world CW title for a decade or longer if he hadnt moved up against natural super HWs like Bowe and Lewis. By the time Evander fought Ruiz he was totally shot and pushing 40.

That's the thing, even a shot Holyfield was tough as nails.

Holyfield could have ruled cruiser for as long as he saw fit, but he wanted the heavyweight title. Usky has done nothing to suggest so far he would have had his beating. Even past his peak, Holyfield gave a prime Lewis a lot of trouble in both fights.

Yes, and prime Lewis was one of the best heavyweights ever H2H having great size, power, skills, good speed (for such a huge guy) and a great trainer.

[candyslim]

Well judging from opinions on here, Usyk would have no chance, in fact I'd agree with the consensus, but it's not a fair comparison because we know what Holyfield could do against much bigger elite fighters -

- Usyk is 14-0 and would have to finish out at 12-10-2 to match Field against much bigger, elite fighters.

If you nitwits would stop spamming the forum with your gushing schoolboy love of Field, you wouldn't have to endure his obvious deficiencies that anyone can see. He didn't enter the heavy division for those obvious deficiencies in the beginning, and going life and death against a shot Dokes who was one punched into oblivion by Coetzee is the poster bout for those limitations.

I'm still waiting for you nellies to cite the one bout against a halfway elite opponent where Field showed he had boxing skills more than a club fighter on the juice. Gonna put out Vinny Maddalone as a poor man's elite where Field showed he could box some against a face first club fighter.

And for a little perspective since you expert wannabes want to cite legacy, Bob Fitzsimmons has legacy out the Kazoo and P4P well over these two and a better fighter than the lot of them combined, but he wouldn't stand a chance against either. Hope the majority of you don't drive or vote or have kids since your judgments are pathetically flawed and would be a menace to society at large.

Wow. So I'm spamming the forum with my gushing schoolboy love for Holyfield ??? I thought I was defending Usyk on the basis his career has a long way to go - did you even bother to read the post?

Don't bother to answer that, I don't really care. So much hatred for such a tough, courageous and skilled fighter. I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond, you're clearly not to be reasoned with - not on this subject anyway. The word "troll" springs to mind.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Well judging from opinions on here, Usyk would have no chance, in fact I'd agree with the consensus, but it's not a fair comparison because we know what Holyfield could do against much bigger elite fighters -

- Usyk is 14-0 and would have to finish out at 12-10-2 to match Field against much bigger, elite fighters.

If you nitwits would stop spamming the forum with your gushing schoolboy love of Field, you wouldn't have to endure his obvious deficiencies that anyone can see. He didn't enter the heavy division for those obvious deficiencies in the beginning, and going life and death against a shot Dokes who was one punched into oblivion by Coetzee is the poster bout for those limitations.

I'm still waiting for you nellies to cite the one bout against a halfway elite opponent where Field showed he had boxing skills more than a club fighter on the juice. Gonna put out Vinny Maddalone as a poor man's elite where Field showed he could box some against a face first club fighter.

And for a little perspective since you expert wannabes want to cite legacy, Bob Fitzsimmons has legacy out the Kazoo and P4P well over these two and a better fighter than the lot of them combined, but he wouldn't stand a chance against either. Hope the majority of you don't drive or vote or have kids since your judgments are pathetically flawed and would be a menace to society at large.

Wow. So I'm spamming the forum with my gushing schoolboy love for Holyfield ??? I thought I was defending Usyk on the basis his career has a long way to go - did you even bother to read the post?

Don't bother to answer that, I don't really care. So much hatred for such a tough, courageous and skilled fighter. I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond, you're clearly not to be reasoned with - not on this subject anyway. The word "troll" springs to mind.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious trolling, not sure why I bothered to respond.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Wow. So I'm spamming the forum with my gushing schoolboy love for Holyfield ??? I thought I was defending Usyk on the basis his career has a long way to go - did you even bother to read the post?

Don't bother to answer that, I don't really care. So much hatred for such a tough, courageous and skilled fighter. I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond, you're clearly not to be reasoned with - not on this subject anyway. The word "troll" springs to mind.

- CandyBonBons at 16 posts per week, and JimDandy at 38 posts a week mostly in weak supporting content compared to my 3 posts a week backed up in facts,

After Mike Spinks booted Qawi out of the LH division, he goes 22-9, 2-3 in blown up title fights, and he's supposed to be prime 16 lbs and more over his best weight? Before Spinks beat him he at least racked up 4-0 title streak in his natural division.

Saad was even worse, taking horrific beatings while racking up a 9-0 title record. Anyone could see his next bout during that streak could be a banana peel, and once Qawi got to him he's 0-1 in title fights with a 8-12-1 record. At least he's much better HOF quality than Qawi who board genii rate highly for beating Saad at the end of his prime? I like both just fine as come to fight fighters, but they weren't prime for Field any more than post prison Tyson on experimental psycho meds was prime for Field. This thread was intended for the little board glee club to blubber over the disrespectful Field who continues to disgrace himself by passing off as a promoter. Clearly he's got financial backing by suits who prop him up like he was propped in the last half of his heavy career who are using his name to exploit poor and vulnerable fighters like some promoters have always done.

Still in waiting for his sublime masterclass of boxing over a prime contender where Field didn't have to lead with his face or his thick noggin.

Don't be shy now...snickers

[ValMar]

Wow. So I'm spamming the forum with my gushing schoolboy love for Holyfield ??? I thought I was defending Usyk on the basis his career has a long way to go - did you even bother to read the post?

Don't bother to answer that, I don't really care. So much hatred for such a tough, courageous and skilled fighter. I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond, you're clearly not to be reasoned with - not on this subject anyway. The word "troll" springs to mind.

- CandyBonBons at 16 posts per week, and JimDandy at 38 posts a week mostly in weak supporting content compared to my 3 posts a week backed up in facts,

After Mike Spinks booted Qawi out of the LH division, he goes 22-9, 2-3 in blown up title fights, and he's supposed to be prime 16 lbs and more over his best weight? Before Spinks beat him he at least racked up 4-0 title streak in his natural division.

Saad was even worse, taking horrific beatings while racking up a 9-0 title record. Anyone could see his next bout during that streak could be a banana peel, and once Qawi got to him he's 0-1 in title fights with a 8-12-1 record. At least he's much better HOF quality than Qawi who board genii rate highly for beating Saad at the end of his prime? I like both just fine as come to fight fighters, but they weren't prime for Field any more than post prison Tyson on experimental psycho meds was prime for Field. This thread was intended for the little board glee club to blubber over the disrespectful Field who continues to disgrace himself by passing off as a promoter. Clearly he's got financial backing by suits who prop him up like he was propped in the last half of his heavy career who are using his name to exploit poor and vulnerable fighters like some promoters have always done.

Still in waiting for his sublime masterclass of boxing over a prime contender where Field didn't have to lead with his face or his thick noggin.

Don't be shy now...snickers

I hope you are kidding. If not..............

[Best Coast]

You apparently graduated from the short bus to the clown car!!

Holy was a natural cruiser who would have held the world CW title for a decade or longer if he hadnt moved up against natural super HWs like Bowe and Lewis. By the time Evander fought Ruiz he was totally shot and pushing 40.

That's the thing, even a shot Holyfield was tough as nails.

Holyfield could have ruled cruiser for as long as he saw fit, but he wanted the heavyweight title. Usky has done nothing to suggest so far he would have had his beating. Even past his peak, Holyfield gave a prime Lewis a lot of trouble in both fights.

Yes, and prime Lewis was one of the best heavyweights ever H2H having great size, power, skills, good speed (for such a huge guy) and a great trainer.

If Usyk dominates cruiser like Holyfield did and then goes H2H with the modern-day equivalents of Bowe (1 win in 3), Lewis (1-0-1) and Tyson (2-0) THEN we can have a serious discussion about Holy vs Usyk!!

Until then this speculation amounts to nothing more than fantasy boxing.