How much does a fighter actually improve after turning pro?

[Controversial]

Sometimes people get fixated on experience but does it actually make a huge difference? There a lots of examples of fairly inexperienced pros being very successful, and doing this against far more seasoned pros than themselves. So from turning pro do you really improve that much or is it more that your fitness gets better and ring IQ improves but your actually ability stays pretty much the same? Lets face it most fighters style doesn't change from their 1st fight until their last. If you stuck Mike Tyson in with Berbick in his debut would the result have been any different?

[gilgamesh]

Depends on the fighter I figure. How much work are they putting in in the gym? How much are they working on developing new techniques?

There are also certain opponents you can be matched again that'll teach you a few things the hard way. Like for instance some guys will learn how to defend left hooks a little better after fighting that guy that hit them with several left hooks...some guys just remain vulnerable to left hooks even afterward.

There's no one answer to this really. Just depends on the fighter.

I don't know that the extremely decorated amateurs improve a whole lot because they're already pretty damn developed by the time they turn pro, but guys with limited amateur experience surely get better as they face better opposition, and are forced to raise their game to be able to compete.

[Controversial]

Depends on the fighter I figure. How much work are they putting in in the gym? How much are they working on developing new techniques?

There are also certain opponents you can be matched again that'll teach you a few things the hard way. Like for instance some guys will learn how to defend left hooks a little better after fighting that guy that hit them with several left hooks...some guys just remain vulnerable to left hooks even afterward.

There's no one answer to this really. Just depends on the fighter.

I don't know that the extremely decorated amateurs improve a whole lot because they're already pretty damn developed by the time they turn pro, but guys with limited amateur experience surely get better as they face better opposition, and are forced to raise their game to be able to compete.

Yes it depends, just kind of interesting how much the average pro improves. We have all seen those journeymen with 100+ fights that still can't beat anyone. They know all the tricks in the book but technically have never really got any better. Then you have guys like Lomachenko who are world betters from the get go. Granted he was a great amateur but not all great amateurs make good pros and some great pros had average amateur careers.

I think a lot is down to dedication, desire and how much guys can train and what access they have to decent coaches etc.. If you are working a full time job and boxing on the side you can never really focus on the sport, then others like AJ has access to all the best equipment, medical staff, coaches and has all the time in the world to train, rest and prepare.

[gilgamesh]

Depends on the fighter I figure. How much work are they putting in in the gym? How much are they working on developing new techniques?

There are also certain opponents you can be matched again that'll teach you a few things the hard way. Like for instance some guys will learn how to defend left hooks a little better after fighting that guy that hit them with several left hooks...some guys just remain vulnerable to left hooks even afterward.

There's no one answer to this really. Just depends on the fighter.

I don't know that the extremely decorated amateurs improve a whole lot because they're already pretty damn developed by the time they turn pro, but guys with limited amateur experience surely get better as they face better opposition, and are forced to raise their game to be able to compete.

Yes it depends, just kind of interesting how much the average pro improves. We have all seen those journeymen with 100+ fights that still can't beat anyone. They know all the tricks in the book but technically have never really got any better. Then you have guys like Lomachenko who are world betters from the get go. Granted he was a great amateur but not all great amateurs make good pros and some great pros had average amateur careers.

I think a lot is down to dedication, desire and how much guys can train and what access they have to decent coaches etc.. If you are working a full time job and boxing on the side you can never really focus on the sport, then others like AJ has access to all the best equipment, medical staff, coaches and has all the time in the world to train, rest and prepare.

I imagine the only thing Loma had left to learn upon turning pro was some of the more physical elements of the Pro game (which he got a good lesson in against Salido) and how to handle a 12 round pace (which he also learned against Salido)...other than that he had nearly 400 Amateur fights, and was a 2x Gold Medalist. I doubt there was too many improvements to his technical skill needed.

[Controversial]

Depends on the fighter I figure. How much work are they putting in in the gym? How much are they working on developing new techniques?

There are also certain opponents you can be matched again that'll teach you a few things the hard way. Like for instance some guys will learn how to defend left hooks a little better after fighting that guy that hit them with several left hooks...some guys just remain vulnerable to left hooks even afterward.

There's no one answer to this really. Just depends on the fighter.

I don't know that the extremely decorated amateurs improve a whole lot because they're already pretty damn developed by the time they turn pro, but guys with limited amateur experience surely get better as they face better opposition, and are forced to raise their game to be able to compete.

Yes it depends, just kind of interesting how much the average pro improves. We have all seen those journeymen with 100+ fights that still can't beat anyone. They know all the tricks in the book but technically have never really got any better. Then you have guys like Lomachenko who are world betters from the get go. Granted he was a great amateur but not all great amateurs make good pros and some great pros had average amateur careers.

I think a lot is down to dedication, desire and how much guys can train and what access they have to decent coaches etc.. If you are working a full time job and boxing on the side you can never really focus on the sport, then others like AJ has access to all the best equipment, medical staff, coaches and has all the time in the world to train, rest and prepare.

I imagine the only thing Loma had left to learn upon turning pro was some of the more physical elements of the Pro game (which he got a good lesson in against Salido) and how to handle a 12 round pace (which he also learned against Salido)...other than that he had nearly 400 Amateur fights, and was a 2x Gold Medalist. I doubt there was too many improvements to his technical skill needed.

Yes thats what I find interesting because you often hear people say not to rush a fighter but fighters like Tim Witherspoon gave Holmes a tough fight and he only had 15 pro fights at that stage, most against nobodies. So the reality is some guys are good enough very quick into their career to compete at a world level. I doubt Tyson or AJ learnt much blowing all those guys away in 1-2 rounds so as you say all they really needed to add was how to pace themselves.

[gilgamesh]

Yes thats what I find interesting because you often hear people say not to rush a fighter but fighters like Tim Witherspoon gave Holmes a tough fight and he only had 15 pro fights at that stage, most against nobodies. So the reality is some guys are good enough very quick into their career to compete at a world level. I doubt Tyson or AJ learnt much blowing all those guys away in 1-2 rounds so as you say all they really needed to add was how to pace themselves.

Indeed. In fact for both Wilder and AJ...Wilder in particular I remember I kept saying for a long time (before he ever won a title at least) that if I were his manager I'd match him against a guy like Dominick Guinn. I think that's what guys like that need. You know damn well the guy can punch. What he needs is to be in there with a guy that can take his shot, and go rounds. There's always at least a few of those ultra durable guys hanging around in the Heavyweight division, and guys like Guinn I imagine would be who you'd wanna match your guy with early because Guinn is tough as all hell, and never got stopped as far as I know, but mostly kept his hands to himself in his fights also. So he's a durable yet safe opponent...perfect for the guy that just needs the experience of going rounds.

Wilder and AJ have already moved beyond this level now obviously, but I definitely would've matched Wilder against a guy like that prior to his title fight.

I guess they just wanted to keep him having a 100% KO ratio instead.

[BitPlayer]

I think a big factor is how young they start. No doubt someone like Canelo has. improved a lot

[Controversial]

I think a big fighter is how young they someone. No doubt someone like Canelo has.

Sorry I haven't a clue what your saying?

[BitPlayer]

I think a big fighter is how young they someone. No doubt someone like Canelo has.

Sorry I haven't a clue what your saying?

I fixed it now. No idea what happened there.

[Ambling Alp II]

If a fighter has a good trainer and wants it bad enough he can improve quite a bit. Even fighters who turned out great were seldom anywhere near that level right off the bat.

There are occasional cases of someone like Tim Witherspoon fighting a high level early on. However, that is the exception to the rule.
Davey Moore (the jr middleweight, not the featherweight) was like that as well. However, both regressed and were not better when they should have been in their primes.
Usually, it is best to start your career against nobodies, and gradually go up against better and better opponents. Then after 4 or 5 years go after the best.

[Tomasino]

I’ve known several excellent amateurs who struggled to make it as pros. It’s not just the extra rounds, it’s all the shite mixed up in the game that makes it difficult. Tony Jeffries is an easy example. Did it all as an Am but absolutely hated the pro game, due to the shady sleazy going’s on. I don’t think becoming a piece of meat to be traded suits a lot of folk. Only the well backed up or seriously tough and single minded fighters go all the way as professionals.

[IKSRTFO]

Sometimes people get fixated on experience but does it actually make a huge difference? There a lots of examples of fairly inexperienced pros being very successful, and doing this against far more seasoned pros than themselves. So from turning pro do you really improve that much or is it more that your fitness gets better and ring IQ improves but your actually ability stays pretty much the same? Lets face it most fighters style doesn't change from their 1st fight until their last. If you stuck Mike Tyson in with Berbick in his debut would the result have been any different?

It makes a huge difference. Just ask Hopkins, Winky Wright, or Marvin Hagler. They improved vastly in their career.

[littlepug]

I’ve known several excellent amateurs who struggled to make it as pros. It’s not just the extra rounds, it’s all the shite mixed up in the game that makes it difficult. Tony Jeffries is an easy example. Did it all as an Am but absolutely hated the pro game, due to the shady sleazy going’s on. I don’t think becoming a piece of meat to be traded suits a lot of folk. Only the well backed up or seriously tough and single minded fighters go all the way as professionals.

Bang on mate, its a lonely game sometimes, the fun and games in the arms are long gone and its all serious graft all of a sudden, you never seem to be able to get the truth out of anyone in the pros when it comes to money/weight/opponents so end up not trusting anyone, its a lot to take on on top of everything else

[Tomasino]

I’ve known several excellent amateurs who struggled to make it as pros. It’s not just the extra rounds, it’s all the shite mixed up in the game that makes it difficult. Tony Jeffries is an easy example. Did it all as an Am but absolutely hated the pro game, due to the shady sleazy going’s on. I don’t think becoming a piece of meat to be traded suits a lot of folk. Only the well backed up or seriously tough and single minded fighters go all the way as professionals.

Bang on mate, its a lonely game sometimes, the fun and games in the arms are long gone and its all serious graft all of a sudden, you never seem to be able to get the truth out of anyone in the pros when it comes to money/weight/opponents so end up not trusting anyone, its a lot to take on on top of everything else

You’ll know as well as anyone mate. One of my best pals was Scotland’s Top welter for years and loved his AM career. He made a lot more money and was training and competing all over the world. Then he turned over and the gangster/bully promoters are the boss, the fights are in leisure centres and your robbed blind by anyone you might trust. That’s the pro game.

[littlepug]

I’ve known several excellent amateurs who struggled to make it as pros. It’s not just the extra rounds, it’s all the shite mixed up in the game that makes it difficult. Tony Jeffries is an easy example. Did it all as an Am but absolutely hated the pro game, due to the shady sleazy going’s on. I don’t think becoming a piece of meat to be traded suits a lot of folk. Only the well backed up or seriously tough and single minded fighters go all the way as professionals.

Bang on mate, its a lonely game sometimes, the fun and games in the arms are long gone and its all serious graft all of a sudden, you never seem to be able to get the truth out of anyone in the pros when it comes to money/weight/opponents so end up not trusting anyone, its a lot to take on on top of everything else

You’ll know as well as anyone mate. One of my best pals was Scotland’s Top welter for years and loved his AM career. He made a lot more money and was training and competing all over the world. Then he turned over and the gangster/bully promoters are the boss, the fights are in leisure centres and your robbed blind by anyone you might trust. That’s the pro game.

I imagine we've lost a lot of good fighters over the years that have just packed it in, look at Kevin Satchell, you soon get tired of getting punched in the head all the time for little reward

[Controversial]

I’ve known several excellent amateurs who struggled to make it as pros. It’s not just the extra rounds, it’s all the shite mixed up in the game that makes it difficult. Tony Jeffries is an easy example. Did it all as an Am but absolutely hated the pro game, due to the shady sleazy going’s on. I don’t think becoming a piece of meat to be traded suits a lot of folk. Only the well backed up or seriously tough and single minded fighters go all the way as professionals.

Tony was unbeaten and quit due to injury, he didn't walk away for any other reason did he?

[littlepug]

I’ve known several excellent amateurs who struggled to make it as pros. It’s not just the extra rounds, it’s all the shite mixed up in the game that makes it difficult. Tony Jeffries is an easy example. Did it all as an Am but absolutely hated the pro game, due to the shady sleazy going’s on. I don’t think becoming a piece of meat to be traded suits a lot of folk. Only the well backed up or seriously tough and single minded fighters go all the way as professionals.

Tony was unbeaten and quit due to injury, he didn't walk away for any other reason did he?

He has openly stated how he wasnt enjoying the pros

[Controversial]

I’ve known several excellent amateurs who struggled to make it as pros. It’s not just the extra rounds, it’s all the shite mixed up in the game that makes it difficult. Tony Jeffries is an easy example. Did it all as an Am but absolutely hated the pro game, due to the shady sleazy going’s on. I don’t think becoming a piece of meat to be traded suits a lot of folk. Only the well backed up or seriously tough and single minded fighters go all the way as professionals.

Tony was unbeaten and quit due to injury, he didn't walk away for any other reason did he?

He has openly stated how he wasnt enjoying the pros

Yeah I read the interview about Team GB having the best of everything and it being a shock to be system turning pro as he had to do and pay for everything himself. That is a huge problem for most guys and often why many quit, underperform or get taken advantage of. I was just pointing out that it was an injury that forced his hand to quit, not because he hated being a pro as that post suggested he quit for other reasons.

[Crease]

How much does a fighter actually improve after turning pro?

The first thing I would say on this topic is that there is an obvious difference between a fighter who is trying to improve and a fighter who is constantly training and working hard.

It is often assumed and confused that because a fighter might remain active and more-or-less lives in his boxing gym that he is "trying to improve" but there's times when that's not necessarily true. It is very common that fighters (especially those who are moderately successful) often train to keep their weight down and keep their bodies in the apex of fitness. But yet, tactically and technically they prefer to use combinations and movements that have already worked for them in fights. They rely on their own tried and tested methods.

For a fighter to "try to improve" they have to step outside their comfort zone and take the risk of trying new things, trying new combinations, head movements, foot movements, etc...

It's a very hard thing, that's way you don't see fighters coming in fighting completely different from what they've done before. You could call it "style" - everyone has their own way of doing things.

But when a fighter is improving, it can actually be quite hard to see it - because it's all about small gains here and small gains there. Then with enough of these minor improvements, it could make a major impact during a tough night for the fighter.

It's just the classic example of a guy walking in off the street into a boxing gym for the first time. You're not going to be a Muhammad Ali after 1 hour in there. It really just doesn't work that way.

[Tomasino]

Tony was unbeaten and quit due to injury, he didn't walk away for any other reason did he?

He has openly stated how he wasnt enjoying the pros

Yeah I read the interview about Team GB having the best of everything and it being a shock to be system turning pro as he had to do and pay for everything himself. That is a huge problem for most guys and often why many quit, underperform or get taken advantage of. I was just pointing out that it was an injury that forced his hand to quit, not because he hated being a pro as that post suggested he quit for other reasons.

Ive had quite a few conversations with him. He quit because he was used and abused and hated his promoter and the whole corrupt set up, like I said in my post. Hes a very sound and open guy. Tony is much happier and more successful now away from the pros. tbh you come accross quite naive on this subject. Littlepug is an ex pro himself and knows the ins and outs.

[Controversial]

He has openly stated how he wasnt enjoying the pros

Yeah I read the interview about Team GB having the best of everything and it being a shock to be system turning pro as he had to do and pay for everything himself. That is a huge problem for most guys and often why many quit, underperform or get taken advantage of. I was just pointing out that it was an injury that forced his hand to quit, not because he hated being a pro as that post suggested he quit for other reasons.

Ive had quite a few conversations with him. He quit because he was used and abused and hated his promoter and the whole corrupt set up, like I said in my post. Hes a very sound and open guy. Tony is much happier and more successful now away from the pros. tbh you come accross quite naive on this subject. Littlepug is an ex pro himself and knows the ins and outs.

Thats fair enough, all I am repeating is the interview on youtube of him saying he quit because his hand was injured and he was upset about it. I know the sport is corrupt and fighters are taken advantage of, its as old as the hills, so I'm sure he found it hard as most fighters do. If he has said privately he quit because he was used and abused then most people aren't going to be aware of that.

[Tomasino]

Yeah I read the interview about Team GB having the best of everything and it being a shock to be system turning pro as he had to do and pay for everything himself. That is a huge problem for most guys and often why many quit, underperform or get taken advantage of. I was just pointing out that it was an injury that forced his hand to quit, not because he hated being a pro as that post suggested he quit for other reasons.

Ive had quite a few conversations with him. He quit because he was used and abused and hated his promoter and the whole corrupt set up, like I said in my post. Hes a very sound and open guy. Tony is much happier and more successful now away from the pros. tbh you come accross quite naive on this subject. Littlepug is an ex pro himself and knows the ins and outs.

Thats fair enough, all I am repeating is the interview on youtube of him saying he quit because his hand was injured and he was upset about it. I know the sport is corrupt and fighters are taken advantage of, its as old as the hills, so I'm sure he found it hard as most fighters do. If he has said privately he quit because he was used and abused then most people aren't going to be aware of that.

I’d say that huge ‘improvement’ is possible from the AMA to the pros if your well looked after and have a great trainer. I feel the great trainers are dying out but surely new guys will come along soon. Loma was lucky he was trained relentlessly by his father, who seems a maverick. But if your a good am, with a good training set up, you can easily go backwards in the pros if your trainer/manager/promoter set up isn’t right.

[HomicideHenry]

I don't think you ever really stop learning, and growing more wise through experience. So, in a sense, you are always improving, even if the body starts winding down.