Joe Calzaghe - Question Mark

[banjo]

It's an opportunity missed there, Pavlik at the time was hot news and Calzaghe would have beaten him handily.

[Counter-puncher]

It's an opportunity missed there, Pavlik at the time was hot news and Calzaghe would have beaten him handily.

[TheLeprechaun]

It's an opportunity missed there, Pavlik at the time was hot news and Calzaghe would have beaten him handily.

Pavlik was a hard hitter and I don't think it was a straight forward win for Calzaghe. Yes Hopkins beat Pavlik but he did it with an entirely different style than Calzaghe would have used. Martinez also was a backfoot fighter. Calzaghe would have been getting in Pavliks grill and that seems like the kind of thing you don't want to do with someone who hit like Pavlik did at the time. Pavlik is also the kind of guy who would have finished him if he got him hurt

[Boxerbeetle]

Calzaghe would have totally dominated Pavlik, it would have been similar to the Lacy fight. Pavlik was far too slow, basic & open. I genuinely don’t remember anyone saying otherwise at the time, pretty sure no-one was really calling for it.

[banjo]

Pavlik was nowhere near as good as he was made out to be at that time, the biggest wins on his record are the two Taylor fights and Taylor himself had a lot of flaws, the rest of his record was worse than Joes.

[stujones]

Calzaghe would have totally dominated Pavlik, it would have been similar to the Lacy fight. Pavlik was far too slow, basic & open. I genuinely don’t remember anyone saying otherwise at the time, pretty sure no-one was really calling for it.

It was only the power thing that Pavlik had going for him to make it interesting.

[Coco]

Pavlik was hugely touted at the time, destroyed JC's gym mate Gary Lockett and would have been seen as a real test.
Instead JC went for the seemingly easier options of Hopkins and Jones to finish off his career.
History shows us that Pavlik was probably well overrated, also suffering from drink problems and actually the Welshmans win over the Executionaer was the best result of his career and makes his legacy hold up well.

[lillywhite14]

Joe got there, sort of, eventually.

Without Ricky Hatton I think Calzaghe would never have sought the bigger fights. He inspired him a little bit I think

[dirk2686]

Calzaghe would have totally dominated Pavlik, it would have been similar to the Lacy fight. Pavlik was far too slow, basic & open. I genuinely don’t remember anyone saying otherwise at the time, pretty sure no-one was really calling for it.

Not disputing Joe would probably have schooled him but Pavlik was a massive name at the time. The win over Miranda was his big step up and he battered him. To then get off the deck to beat Taylor, then beat him again, made him a serious contender. You have to remember Taylor was unbeaten at the time and Pavlik went from a guy who'd not really beaten anyone of note to a guy with three very good wins. He was also a massive favourite to beat Hopkins.

There was loads of interest in it at the time and absolutely no interest in the Jones fight. Calzaghe summed up in one fight for me; spent so long supposedly chasing the names and when he could have had one (and his CV needed them badly) he took a route so easy he himself had said his opponent was shot.

[dirk2686]

Joe got there, sort of, eventually.

Without Ricky Hatton I think Calzaghe would never have sought the bigger fights. He inspired him a little bit I think

The issue for me was that Calzaghe had spent ages looking to get recognition and when he finally got it after Lacy he fought Bika and Manfredo in fights nobody was bothered about at all. Everyone knew he didn't have long left and they were wasted fights.

[East End]

I have no idea why so many fight fans have such negative views on Joe. It was something he had to endure throughout his top level career. He beat Eubank emphatically; folk said Eubank had been out two years and was rusty. He totally schools Lacy, who the boxing world had been lauding as the most exciting talent the sport had seen since Tyson, suddenly those same pundits started saying that Lacy had been massively overrated. Hopkins employs every dirty trick in the book and Joe still outpoints him comfortably: the neg-heads all dismiss Hopkins as an old man and refuse to readdress the matter when B-Hop goes on to beat several high level fighters over the subsequent five years. As for Joe's victory over Kessler when the Dane was at his absolute peak... Well all the haters conveniently just forget about that one .
In my mind, there is no question mark. British boxers of the past 40 years - Calzaghe, P4P, number 1

[Boxerbeetle]

Calzaghe would have totally dominated Pavlik, it would have been similar to the Lacy fight. Pavlik was far too slow, basic & open. I genuinely don’t remember anyone saying otherwise at the time, pretty sure no-one was really calling for it.

Not disputing Joe would probably have schooled him but Pavlik was a massive name at the time. The win over Miranda was his big step up and he battered him. To then get off the deck to beat Taylor, then beat him again, made him a serious contender. You have to remember Taylor was unbeaten at the time and Pavlik went from a guy who'd not really beaten anyone of note to a guy with three very good wins. He was also a massive favourite to beat Hopkins.

There was loads of interest in it at the time and absolutely no interest in the Jones fight. Calzaghe summed up in one fight for me; spent so long supposedly chasing the names and when he could have had one (and his CV needed them badly) he took a route so easy he himself had said his opponent was shot.

Clearly we have different recollections of the chain of events - I honestly don’t remember any real calls for Calzaghe to fight Pavlik. Pavlik never even fought above MW as far as I recall, and Calzaghe had long signaled his intention to move up to LHW for a few fights before retiring. There were far more calls for Calzaghe to fight Dawson than Pavlik imo.

[lillywhite14]

Joe got there, sort of, eventually.

Without Ricky Hatton I think Calzaghe would never have sought the bigger fights. He inspired him a little bit I think

The issue for me was that Calzaghe had spent ages looking to get recognition and when he finally got it after Lacy he fought Bika and Manfredo in fights nobody was bothered about at all. Everyone knew he didn't have long left and they were wasted fights.

The Manfredo fight was terrible. Bika and Salem were boring names but wasn’t one of them mandatory at the time and both actually asked Joe a few questions.

[lillywhite14]

I have no idea why so many fight fans have such negative views on Joe. It was something he had to endure throughout his top level career. He beat Eubank emphatically; folk said Eubank had been out two years and was rusty. He totally schools Lacy, who the boxing world had been lauding as the most exciting talent the sport had seen since Tyson, suddenly those same pundits started saying that Lacy had been massively overrated. Hopkins employs every dirty trick in the book and Joe still outpoints him comfortably: the neg-heads all dismiss Hopkins as an old man and refuse to readdress the matter when B-Hop goes on to beat several high level fighters over the subsequent five years. As for Joe's victory over Kessler when the Dane was at his absolute peak... Well all the haters conveniently just forget about that one .
In my mind, there is no question mark. British boxers of the past 40 years - Calzaghe, P4P, number 1

I don’t think many genuine fans have that negative a view of Joe. My gripe with him was he spent too long fighting people he was light years ahead of, at home, in mundane defences of his title. His talent needed to be tested against the elite but he seemed comfortable to sit at home beating level B and C fighters.

Kessler was a great win, although closer than the official cards and there was room for a rematch there. Joe admitted he wasn’t keen on a rematch. He definitely won the fight though of course.

Hopkins another great win, looking back especially. Not sure he won comfortably and plenty think he didn’t actually win at all though. Hopkins always made it difficult of course, so many tricks, Joe didn’t land many shots that night.
Reid deserted a rematch too, Joe was a little lucky that night ( although had flu apparently )

The Lacy win was his breakout victory. Spanked him like a ginger step child!

It’s a shame he didn’t come along a few years earlier or later. Having a couple of fellow British world champs might have made him make his move earlier than he did. I’ve always said Froch’s win record is actually better than Joe’s but Joe would have beat him and of course, he never lost which helps his legacy.

[East End]

I have no idea why so many fight fans have such negative views on Joe. It was something he had to endure throughout his top level career. He beat Eubank emphatically; folk said Eubank had been out two years and was rusty. He totally schools Lacy, who the boxing world had been lauding as the most exciting talent the sport had seen since Tyson, suddenly those same pundits started saying that Lacy had been massively overrated. Hopkins employs every dirty trick in the book and Joe still outpoints him comfortably: the neg-heads all dismiss Hopkins as an old man and refuse to readdress the matter when B-Hop goes on to beat several high level fighters over the subsequent five years. As for Joe's victory over Kessler when the Dane was at his absolute peak... Well all the haters conveniently just forget about that one .
In my mind, there is no question mark. British boxers of the past 40 years - Calzaghe, P4P, number 1

I don’t think many genuine fans have that negative a view of Joe. My gripe with him was he spent too long fighting people he was light years ahead of, at home, in mundane defences of his title. His talent needed to be tested against the elite but he seemed comfortable to sit at home beating level B and C fighters.

Kessler was a great win, although closer than the official cards and there was room for a rematch there. Joe admitted he wasn’t keen on a rematch. He definitely won the fight though of course.

Hopkins another great win, looking back especially. Not sure he won comfortably and plenty think he didn’t actually win at all though. Hopkins always made it difficult of course, so many tricks, Joe didn’t land many shots that night.
Reid deserted a rematch too, Joe was a little lucky that night ( although had flu apparently )

The Lacy win was his breakout victory. Spanked him like a ginger step child!

It’s a shame he didn’t come along a few years earlier or later. Having a couple of fellow British world champs might have made him make his move earlier than he did. I’ve always said Froch’s win record is actually better than Joe’s but Joe would have beat him and of course, he never lost which helps his legacy.

I did post on another thread that I wish Calzaghe had fought Roy Jones around the turn of the century (about a decade earlier than it finally did happen when RJJ was way past his best). I think the two of them would have brought out the best in one another and both of them would probably be afforded far more positive career retrospectives now, regardless of who had won. I also never fully understood why Steve Collins chose to retire rather than fight Joe. Had Calzaghe won that, nobody could reasonably have made the sort of excuses for Collins that they did for Eubank.

[lurkyshaka]

I also never fully understood why Steve Collins chose to retire rather than fight Joe. Had Calzaghe won that, nobody could reasonably have made the sort of excuses for Collins that they did for Eubank.

Collins retired to avoid Calzaghe because he knew that Calzaghe would have leathered him. It doesn't reflect well on Collins the way he avoided Calzaghe.

There was talk of how Collins had fainted during sparring or something along those lines and that was why he retired so suddenly....but I think that's a poor excuse because he's taken part in white collar type fights since and of course has been calling for fights against the likes of Jones and now Benn for years. He didn't retire because of a health issue...he retired because Calzaghe was his mandatory and he just didn't fancy it.

And on that score got to give Eubank credit for stepping in when he was well aware of the challenge he was up against.

[East End]

I also never fully understood why Steve Collins chose to retire rather than fight Joe. Had Calzaghe won that, nobody could reasonably have made the sort of excuses for Collins that they did for Eubank.

Collins retired to avoid Calzaghe because he knew that Calzaghe would have leathered him. It doesn't reflect well on Collins the way he avoided Calzaghe.

There was talk of how Collins had fainted during sparring or something along those lines and that was why he retired so suddenly....but I think that's a poor excuse because he's taken part in white collar type fights since and of course has been calling for fights against the likes of Jones and now Benn for years. He didn't retire because of a health issue...he retired because Calzaghe was his mandatory and he just didn't fancy it.

And on that score got to give Eubank credit for stepping in when he was well aware of the challenge he was up against.

Totally agree. I will also never forget the TV cam following Eubank back to the changing room after the fight and just how magnanimous he was towards Calzaghe. 'No wonder Steve Collins didn't want to box him. What a fighter!'. Such a pleasant change from the whining and feeble excuses we have become all to used to hearing from beaten sports people. Chris Snr got a lot of bad press but that night he showed himself to be both a noble warrior and a true gent.

[Coco]

Eubank showed his mettle against Benn and Watson, then we had years of terrible performances, who remembers the likes of Schommer and Amazal(sp).
We saw glimpses of his worth against Rochianno and Wharton, but we saw his true worth against Calzaghe and Thompson.
Tough, tough man

[lurkyshaka]

I also never fully understood why Steve Collins chose to retire rather than fight Joe. Had Calzaghe won that, nobody could reasonably have made the sort of excuses for Collins that they did for Eubank.

Collins retired to avoid Calzaghe because he knew that Calzaghe would have leathered him. It doesn't reflect well on Collins the way he avoided Calzaghe.

There was talk of how Collins had fainted during sparring or something along those lines and that was why he retired so suddenly....but I think that's a poor excuse because he's taken part in white collar type fights since and of course has been calling for fights against the likes of Jones and now Benn for years. He didn't retire because of a health issue...he retired because Calzaghe was his mandatory and he just didn't fancy it.

And on that score got to give Eubank credit for stepping in when he was well aware of the challenge he was up against.

Totally agree. I will also never forget the TV cam following Eubank back to the changing room after the fight and just how magnanimous he was towards Calzaghe. 'No wonder Steve Collins didn't want to box him. What a fighter!'. Such a pleasant change from the whining and feeble excuses we have become all to used to hearing from beaten sports people. Chris Snr got a lot of bad press but that night he showed himself to be both a noble warrior and a true gent.

Yeah Eubank has almost become sort of looked at comical now, and I'm sure he is a nightmare to deal with in terms of negotiating etc. But for all his shortcomings, he was a quality fighter and a true warrior. He took his losses like a man and never shirked the punishment or took the easy way out of a fight he wasn't doing well in.

[Controversial]

I don’t think many genuine fans have that negative a view of Joe. My gripe with him was he spent too long fighting people he was light years ahead of, at home, in mundane defences of his title. His talent needed to be tested against the elite but he seemed comfortable to sit at home beating level B and C fighters.

Kessler was a great win, although closer than the official cards and there was room for a rematch there. Joe admitted he wasn’t keen on a rematch. He definitely won the fight though of course.

Hopkins another great win, looking back especially. Not sure he won comfortably and plenty think he didn’t actually win at all though. Hopkins always made it difficult of course, so many tricks, Joe didn’t land many shots that night.
Reid deserted a rematch too, Joe was a little lucky that night ( although had flu apparently )

The Lacy win was his breakout victory. Spanked him like a ginger step child!

It’s a shame he didn’t come along a few years earlier or later. Having a couple of fellow British world champs might have made him make his move earlier than he did. I’ve always said Froch’s win record is actually better than Joe’s but Joe would have beat him and of course, he never lost which helps his legacy.

i agree with this. Not enough big fights, he was a great fighter but just wished he tested himself more. It would of been great if his hands weren't so brittle too, he became a bit of a slapper (fnarr fnarr) in the later years.

[polecateddy]

It would have been interesting if Steve Collins had remained motivated for one last big fight. Instead Calzaghe faced a weight drained Chris Eubank and although he dominated - and showed real power to floor Eubank twice pre-hand troubles - he was flagging a bit by the end. He perhaps wore himself out trying to be the first to stop Eubank, and mentally found the 12 round distance tough that first time around. I'm sure Collins' would have come second best in most exchanges, but it would have been perhaps an even more exhausting first world championship effort than the Eubank fight.

...and as a further aside, as he stepped up to fight Calzaghe, Eubank never got to debut at light-heavyweight against Mark Prince. That was an interesting match up - perhaps a war where Eubank might have needed his killer instinct back to win in the late rounds.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I also never fully understood why Steve Collins chose to retire rather than fight Joe. Had Calzaghe won that, nobody could reasonably have made the sort of excuses for Collins that they did for Eubank.

Collins retired to avoid Calzaghe because he knew that Calzaghe would have leathered him. It doesn't reflect well on Collins the way he avoided Calzaghe.

There was talk of how Collins had fainted during sparring or something along those lines and that was why he retired so suddenly....but I think that's a poor excuse because he's taken part in white collar type fights since and of course has been calling for fights against the likes of Jones and now Benn for years. He didn't retire because of a health issue...he retired because Calzaghe was his mandatory and he just didn't fancy it.

And on that score got to give Eubank credit for stepping in when he was well aware of the challenge he was up against.

Totally agree. I will also never forget the TV cam following Eubank back to the changing room after the fight and just how magnanimous he was towards Calzaghe. 'No wonder Steve Collins didn't want to box him. What a fighter!'. Such a pleasant change from the whining and feeble excuses we have become all to used to hearing from beaten sports people. Chris Snr got a lot of bad press but that night he showed himself to be both a noble warrior and a true gent.

Beyond all the bombast and posturing there is something rather dignified and decent about Eubank.

[lurkyshaka]

Collins retired to avoid Calzaghe because he knew that Calzaghe would have leathered him. It doesn't reflect well on Collins the way he avoided Calzaghe.

There was talk of how Collins had fainted during sparring or something along those lines and that was why he retired so suddenly....but I think that's a poor excuse because he's taken part in white collar type fights since and of course has been calling for fights against the likes of Jones and now Benn for years. He didn't retire because of a health issue...he retired because Calzaghe was his mandatory and he just didn't fancy it.

And on that score got to give Eubank credit for stepping in when he was well aware of the challenge he was up against.

Totally agree. I will also never forget the TV cam following Eubank back to the changing room after the fight and just how magnanimous he was towards Calzaghe. 'No wonder Steve Collins didn't want to box him. What a fighter!'. Such a pleasant change from the whining and feeble excuses we have become all to used to hearing from beaten sports people. Chris Snr got a lot of bad press but that night he showed himself to be both a noble warrior and a true gent.

Beyond all the bombast and posturing there is something rather dignified and decent about Eubank.

There is certainly substance beyond the persona. He goes about things a strange way at times, but he does have his own brand of integrity that deserves respect.

[TheLeprechaun]

Collins retired to avoid Calzaghe because he knew that Calzaghe would have leathered him. It doesn't reflect well on Collins the way he avoided Calzaghe.

There was talk of how Collins had fainted during sparring or something along those lines and that was why he retired so suddenly....but I think that's a poor excuse because he's taken part in white collar type fights since and of course has been calling for fights against the likes of Jones and now Benn for years. He didn't retire because of a health issue...he retired because Calzaghe was his mandatory and he just didn't fancy it.

And on that score got to give Eubank credit for stepping in when he was well aware of the challenge he was up against.

Totally agree. I will also never forget the TV cam following Eubank back to the changing room after the fight and just how magnanimous he was towards Calzaghe. 'No wonder Steve Collins didn't want to box him. What a fighter!'. Such a pleasant change from the whining and feeble excuses we have become all to used to hearing from beaten sports people. Chris Snr got a lot of bad press but that night he showed himself to be both a noble warrior and a true gent.

Yeah Eubank has almost become sort of looked at comical now, and I'm sure he is a nightmare to deal with in terms of negotiating etc. But for all his shortcomings, he was a quality fighter and a true warrior. He took his losses like a man and never shirked the punishment or took the easy way out of a fight he wasn't doing well in.

He caught Calzage with a peach of a right hand with about 5 seconds left which wobbled him badly and calzaghe was happy to hear the final bell.

[Finn]

You know what's better than 'would have retired Kelly Pavlik?'

Retiring Kelly Pavlik.

Did Pavlik even ever fight at supermiddle?

Calzaghe could have fought Pavlik instead of a shot Jones jnr but bottled it.

But then bhop beat pavlik so that win imo strengthened calzaghes legacy. Personally I don’t think he challenged himself enough but I have no real doubt that at super middle (not light heavy) he was in the top 3 all time super middles along side Toney and RJJ.