George Chuvalo Vs Jim Jeffries

[BitPlayer]

Jim Jeffries was easily the best of his era, though the fact he ducked Jack Johnson, does put an asterisk beside his name. As for Sam Langford, he was versed enough in the anti-negro prejudice of the day to avoid any notion of challenging the Great White Hope. Prior to that, he was barely a middleweight himself.

Johnson had done nothing to earn a shot by by the time Jeffries retired, half a year before not getting the decision in a 20 round fight with Marvin Hart, and 3 years after getting knocked out by Joe Choyenski, and Langford was 140Ibs, he had no interest in fighting Jeffries.

I'm not saying there were no black challengers that he should have given a shot, but honestly I don't know of any.

[Cap]

I was once an unabashed admirer of the "Stone Age" heavyweights, my view based solely on the opinions of guys like Nat Fleischer, Herb Goldman, etc. Then in fairly recent times I began really digging into old newspaper accounts to examine the truth behind the myths. Once you get past Jeffries, you're left with very little depth in the dreadnought class. Fitzsimmons, one of the greatest middleweights of the first half of the last hundred years, was likely second only to Jeff, but it was a distant second, as he proved in two attempts to beat the "California Giant". Corbett was well past his glory days and was seen by contemporaries as a blowhard more suited to the stage. He got his first shot at Jeff based more on nostalgia and his connection to the "Great John L Sullivan" than anything he actually accomplished after losing to Fitz. Then you have little Tom Sharkey whose reputation I've already documented. If he fought in any other era he would've been suspended twenty times by state athletic commissions and disqualified a dozen times.

After that group likely comes Kid McCoy and Joe Choynski, who by today's standards, would be at most super middleweights. McCoy lost to Sharkey but whipped Ruhlin easily despite giving away twenty or thirty pounds. Choynski also lost to the crude sailor but he made Ruhlin look foolish in their only meeting even though he only had the use of his left hand for four of the six rounds. One report said,"...Ruhlin had Joe in dangerous places two or three times, but he was too slow and stupid to take advantage of the chances he had..."

So then you have guys like Peter Maher, Gus Ruhlin, Kid Carter, Steve O'Donnell, Fred Russell, Ed Dunkhorst, Yank Kenny, Stockings Conroy, and Mexican Pete Everett. Maher, only around 175, was probably the best of this group.

Looking at this entire generation of fighters, only three or four (Fitz, McCoy, Choynski, etc.) could have really competed in a post-Jeffries era boxing ring. The rest were just too slow or crude or dim.

[Kalan]

The way Cap describes what Chuvalo would do to the top Heavyweights of Jeffries era sounds more like he's talking about Sonny Liston.

Watching the Mathis-Chuvalo fight it's amazing how slow and hittable Chuvalo was... Ellis, Corletti, and McMurtry ranged from 188 to 191 in weight, but they were athletically too quick for Chuvalo. They dodged his punches and hit him, which is what boxing is all about. Liston would have murdered those guys like he did Patterson. Liston was a great athlete and that is 50% of being a championship caliber boxer. Patterson just waited for Chuvalo to swing and popped him between his punches. Patterson was much faster as Chuvalo, but wasn't faster than Liston, who quickly destroyed him twice.

Jeffries was a great athlete too... That's why he was able to dodge punches and land them against experienced top Heavyweights of his day when he was a raw greenhorn.. Jeffries stopped Hank Griffin when he had 4 rounds of experience according to Boxrec.. That single fight more than quadrupled the rounds of experience Jeff had. The idea that anybody in his right mind would match Jeffries like that is astounding in its self. By the time he had 12 fights Jeffries shared the ring with Joe Choynski, Joe Goddard, Peter Jackson, Pete Everett, and Tom Sharkey -- highly experienced veterans who had well over 200 fights between them.. You wouldn't think he'd go undefeated through that.. I agree that Everett's impressive record to that point was pure fluff.. but you wouldn't put a green kid in with hardened campaigners if you didn't have massive confidence in his ability.

In his 23rd and last fight before his 6 year retirement from the ring -- prior to fighting a peak Jack Johnson, Jeffries took on Jack Munroe and looked in peak form.. He floored and hurt Munroe early in the 1st round with a left hook, and finished him off in the 2nd round... That was the only stoppage loss of Munroe's 18 fight career... A year later Munroe fought Jack Johnson who then had 35 fights.. He easily survived 6 and lost a newspaper decision.

[Ambling Alp II]

I was once an unabashed admirer of the "Stone Age" heavyweights, my view based solely on the opinions of guys like Nat Fleischer, Herb Goldman, etc. Then in fairly recent times I began really digging into old newspaper accounts to examine the truth behind the myths. Once you get past Jeffries, you're left with very little depth in the dreadnought class. Fitzsimmons, one of the greatest middleweights of the first half of the last hundred years, was likely second only to Jeff, but it was a distant second, as he proved in two attempts to beat the "California Giant". Corbett was well past his glory days and was seen by contemporaries as a blowhard more suited to the stage. He got his first shot at Jeff based more on nostalgia and his connection to the "Great John L Sullivan" than anything he actually accomplished after losing to Fitz. Then you have little Tom Sharkey whose reputation I've already documented. If he fought in any other era he would've been suspended twenty times by state athletic commissions and disqualified a dozen times.

After that group likely comes Kid McCoy and Joe Choynski, who by today's standards, would be at most super middleweights. McCoy lost to Sharkey but whipped Ruhlin easily despite giving away twenty or thirty pounds. Choynski also lost to the crude sailor but he made Ruhlin look foolish in their only meeting even though he only had the use of his left hand for four of the six rounds. One report said,"...Ruhlin had Joe in dangerous places two or three times, but he was too slow and stupid to take advantage of the chances he had..."

So then you have guys like Peter Maher, Gus Ruhlin, Kid Carter, Steve O'Donnell, Fred Russell, Ed Dunkhorst, Yank Kenny, Stockings Conroy, and Mexican Pete Everett. Maher, only around 175, was probably the best of this group.

Looking at this entire generation of fighters, only three or four (Fitz, McCoy, Choynski, etc.) could have really competed in a post-Jeffries era boxing ring. The rest were just too slow or crude or dim.

I think you are underrating Ruhlin. He was better than the guys you lumped in him in with. He beat Maher and Dunkhorst. He beat Sharkey 2 out of three.
In Jeffries era, I would rate them something like this:
1. Fitz
2. Corbett
3. Sharkey
4. Choynski
5. Ruhlin
6. Maher
You could throw McCoy in there as well.

From all accounts I have ever read about the first Corbett-Jeffries fight; Corbett fought at a very high level.
Then there is a gap, and then some of the fighters you mentioned.

That's not bad. They sort of beat each other; i.e. McCoy beat Ruhlin who beat Sharkey who beat McCoy. They all had their ups and downs; but clearly were good fighters.

No, it was as good as Chuvalo's era. I don't think anyone thinks that. However, Chuvalo did just lose to people like Ali, Patterson, Frazier, and foreman. Jeffries probably loses those fights too. If those were his only losses, then I think you could make a case for him.
However, you ignoring all the losses to fighters to medicore fighters who were not better than the top guys of Jeffries era.
Cap, Are you ever going to address this point which people have pointed out or are you going to keep running your monologue?

[BitPlayer]

Ruhlin KOed Tom Sharkey and beat Choyenski too. He could be very good, but he was a bit inconsistant.

Maher was a lot better than he is giving credit for too, a long successful career, he was certainly a class above Dunkhorst who he battered twice, had both wins and losses wagainst Ruhlin and Choyenski, beat an albeit aging Frank Slavin.

As for them being slow, they fought much longer, often attritional fights, of course they fought slow, they still would if we had the same rules.

[pound per pound]

Neither Corbett nor Jackson were noted as heavy handed, hence their going 61 rounds, at which point the bored officials stopped it and called it a draw. In no universe could Corbett break Jackson's ribs. He had enough trouble stopping middleweights like Mitchell and McCoy and a 170 pound Choynski, and a decrepit, alcohol soaked fat-man in Sullivan. It was only his defensive skills that held off Jeffries as long as they did, that and instructions from Jeff's chief second Billy Delaney who had devised a plan to wear the aging Corbett out.

Fitzsimmons rarely weighed more than 165-170 when campaigning with heavyweights. He was a world-beater at middleweight because of his freakish body. No middleweight stood a chance against a guy with the upper-body of a heavyweight. Even amongst the big boys he was probably second only to Jeffries, who was a giant compared to the average heavy. Except for Dunkhorst, who was just fat, and clumsy Fred Russell who was just large, most "heavies" were in the 170 to 190 pound range. They consistently lost to middleweights when they chanced going against them.

As for the mythic pro-debut against Hank Griffin, there is no mention of it in the accounts of the day. It only cropped up in later years as part of his legend. When he fought Griffin again later in his career, no newspapers made any mention of an earlier encounter.

Jim Jeffries was easily the best of his era, though the fact he ducked Jack Johnson, does put an asterisk beside his name. As for Sam Langford, he was versed enough in the anti-negro prejudice of the day to avoid any notion of challenging the Great White Hope. Prior to that, he was barely a middleweight himself.

No. Jeffries was a bear of a man in an era of midgets. He likely didn't punch any harder than Chuvalo or Quarry or Mike Dejohn. He didn't have to. Those same gents would have waded through the weight class of the 1890s like juggernauts. No five or six punches a round pacing themselves. They would have destroyed the competition in short order.

Capo,

Hank Griffin himself mentioned he was KO'd by Jeffries during the lead up to Jeffries vs. Johnson coverage. Griffin defeated Jack Johnson in 1901 when he was past his best so he must have been something in his prime when Jeffries beat in in the 1890's.

I don't think Chuvalo hit as hard as Sharkey or Fitzsimmons.

Jeffries should win here, as he was bigger, faster, hit harder, was more athletic.

[prewarboxing]

Jeffries may have been a giant in an era of midgets, but, never forget... He challenged Corbett, Fitzsimmons and Sharkey to fight him all on the same night one after the other, and all three refused to do so. He already done the same feat in England against their top three men and he knocked those guys out.

That'd be like Joshua, fighting Haye, Bellew and Ward all in the same night and flattening them inside of three rounds.

When did Jeffries beat the three leading British heavyweights and who were they?Dates please.