Rocky Marciano, a different?

[NYDominican]

Throughout Rocky Marciano's professional boxing career, Rocky dominated over his opponents? However? --------

1. Had Marciano fought anywhere's from 1900 till 1946, do you think that Rocky would have been as dominant? If not, what particular decade from 1900 till 1946 do you think that Marciano would not have been as dominant?



2. Had Rocky fought anywhere's from 1956 till now, do you think that Marciano would have been as dominant? If not, which particular decade from 1956 till now do you think that Rocky would not have been as dominant?



Please explain.

[HomicideHenry]

From the turn of the 20th century to the 1970s I think Marciano could have become the Heavyweight champion at any time. From the 1980s onward he'd of been on the fringe as a Heavyweight, but he'd of possibly been the most dominate cruiserweight of all time.

[DrDuke]

Had Marciano fought anywhere's from 1900 till 1946, do you think that Rocky would have been as dominant? If not, what particular decade from 1900 till 1946 do you think that Marciano would not have been as dominant?

He would have been a top contender in any era of that period.

Had Rocky fought anywhere's from 1956 till now, do you think that Marciano would have been as dominant? If not, which particular decade from 1956 till now do you think that Rocky would not have been as dominant?

After his actual time both boxing skillset and heavyweight sizes had grown. He could have managed to deal with Patterson and Liston, but after those guys there was a kinda upgrade to another level.

[Kalan]

After his actual time both boxing skillset and heavyweight sizes had grown. He could have managed to deal with Patterson and Liston, but after those guys there was a kinda upgrade to another level.

Patterson??? ... It's just barely possible... If you compare their fights with Archie Moore, Patterson did a lot better... Archie didn't have a ghost of a chance against the blazing fast 21-year-old who Rocky predicted would beat him... A lot of Patterson's gloves would be in Marciano's face.... They were the same size, but Patterson was faster and more skilled.

LISTON??? ... If you have an extremely smart trainer there are certain fights you never do... All Cus D'Amato ever talked about is Liston's criminal history and what a disgrace it would be if he ever got a Title Fight... It was the same story from Cus for years and years... If Pete Rademacher of Tom McNeeley had the same criminal history as Sonny, I don't think it would have meant a damned thing to Cus... Patterson vs Liston was the last thing on Earth D'Amato wanted to see.

Charlie Goldman was as smart as D'Amato... When Nino Valdes beat Ezzard Charles and became the #1 contender for a while he kept saying Valdes would stink the house out and it wouldn't be a good fight... When Bob Baker beat Valdez in an Title Elimination Fight, he said "They're both so bad they eliminated each other." They weren't very good Heavyweights, but they were about 210 pounds.. It was no secret that Goldman didn't like matching Rocky with big guys because he was a come forward guy who bulled in on top of you and overpowered you.. Patterson was short and also came straight at you for the most part swinging hard as a MFer and with tremendous speed... You just don't send somebody like that into a wheelhouse of destruction.

It's a lot like Frazier vs Foreman... Smokin' Joe bulled everybody around the ring... 99% of the time, with the Heavyweights of Frazier's day, he could do that... Joe forced you backwards and put his head on you, smashing you with hooks, uppercuts, and short straight stuff... You obvious beat Foreman by boxing him NOT by bulling him around and outslugging him... Smokin' was no fancy boxer with a rangy jab and masterful footwork... It wasn't going to work with Foreman.

Did Foreman have anything in common with Liston??? ... Size.. Strength.. Brutal power in both hands.. Arms the size of tree trunks.. George scared the living crap out of head first swingers like Norton and Frazier... They would never admit it in a million years, but they never felt comfortable in there with George for a second. They might as well try to piss into a hurricane force wind as try to beat Foreman...

Patterson was obviously extremely uncomfortable whenever he was in the vicinity of Sonny Liston... Marciano would have the same feeling, believe me... He knew he'd be a shitt sandwich if he ever fought Sonny... But he would find a way out of the fight... He would take a page from Floyd Mayweather... Rocky was smarter than Patterson about who he fought.

[bwu]

I still rate Marciano very highly, but time marches on. Before his era, Marciano could've been a champion in any period.

After his era? Fights were stopped a lot sooner. Marciano, with his cuts, split nose and swelled eyes would have had a much tougher go. If he scales the mountain, it's not for long and he certainly wouldn't be undefeated.

[DrDuke]

After his actual time both boxing skillset and heavyweight sizes had grown. He could have managed to deal with Patterson and Liston, but after those guys there was a kinda upgrade to another level.

Patterson??? ... It's just barely possible... If you compare their fights with Archie Moore, Patterson did a lot better... Archie didn't have a ghost of a chance against the blazing fast 21-year-old who Rocky predicted would beat him... A lot of Patterson's gloves would be in Marciano's face.... They were the same size, but Patterson was faster and more skilled.

LISTON??? ... If you have an extremely smart trainer there are certain fights you never do... All Cus D'Amato ever talked about is Liston's criminal history and what a disgrace it would be if he ever got a Title Fight... It was the same story from Cus for years and years... If Pete Rademacher of Tom McNeeley had the same criminal history as Sonny, I don't think it would have meant a damned thing to Cus... Patterson vs Liston was the last thing on Earth D'Amato wanted to see.

Charlie Goldman was as smart as D'Amato... When Nino Valdes beat Ezzard Charles and became the #1 contender for a while he kept saying Valdes would stink the house out and it wouldn't be a good fight... When Bob Baker beat Valdez in an Title Elimination Fight, he said "They're both so bad they eliminated each other." They weren't very good Heavyweights, but they were about 210 pounds.. It was no secret that Goldman didn't like matching Rocky with big guys because he was a come forward guy who bulled in on top of you and overpowered you.. Patterson was short and also came straight at you for the most part swinging hard as a MFer and with tremendous speed... You just don't send somebody like that into a wheelhouse of destruction.

It's a lot like Frazier vs Foreman... Smokin' Joe bulled everybody around the ring... 99% of the time, with the Heavyweights of Frazier's day, he could do that... Joe forced you backwards and put his head on you, smashing you with hooks, uppercuts, and short straight stuff... You obvious beat Foreman by boxing him NOT by bulling him around and outslugging him... Smokin' was no fancy boxer with a rangy jab and masterful footwork... It wasn't going to work with Foreman.

Did Foreman have anything in common with Liston??? ... Size.. Strength.. Brutal power in both hands.. Arms the size of tree trunks.. George scared the living crap out of head first swingers like Norton and Frazier... They would never admit it in a million years, but they never felt comfortable in there with George for a second. They might as well try to piss into a hurricane force wind as try to beat Foreman...

Patterson was obviously extremely uncomfortable whenever he was in the vicinity of Sonny Liston... Marciano would have the same feeling, believe me... He knew he'd be a shitt sandwich if he ever fought Sonny... But he would find a way out of the fight... He would take a page from Floyd Mayweather... Rocky was smarter than Patterson about who he fought.

Patterson was faster and more skilled indeed. However, Marciano could knock him out after he had lost every opportunity to take a decision. Like in a Walcott fight. Patterson's ability to take a punch was not the best, while Rocky could punch and he could punch really hard. The fight against Liston could have been more troublesome.

[Kalan]

Patterson was faster and more skilled indeed. However, Marciano could knock him out after he had lost every opportunity to take a decision. Like in a Walcott fight. Patterson's ability to take a punch was not the best, while Rocky could punch and he could punch really hard. The fight against Liston could have been more troublesome.

Patterson got through fights with Jerry Quarry, George Chuvalo, Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, Eddie Machen, Henry Cooper, Hurricane Jackson, Archie Moore, and 2 fights with Ingemar Johansson without getting knocked out... Patterson could hit at least as hard as Marciano... You never saw Rocky ice somebody like Patterson iced Ingo... That was a brutal left hook.

My gut feeling (since Rocky had so much trouble stopping old Light Heavyweight Archie Moore and Patterson didn't) is that Marciano fought extremely weak opposition -- or way past their prime opposition -- and that's why he was never knocked out... I'm pretty certain Patterson could stop him if not just beat the living daylights out of him.

The difference between Patterson's opponents and Rocky's opponents were night and day... Floyd's were 10 X better.

[DrDuke]

Patterson was faster and more skilled indeed. However, Marciano could knock him out after he had lost every opportunity to take a decision. Like in a Walcott fight. Patterson's ability to take a punch was not the best, while Rocky could punch and he could punch really hard. The fight against Liston could have been more troublesome.

Patterson got through fights with Jerry Quarry, George Chuvalo, Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, Eddie Machen, Henry Cooper, Hurricane Jackson, Archie Moore, and 2 fights with Ingemar Johansson without getting knocked out... Patterson could hit at least as hard as Marciano... You never saw Rocky ice somebody like Patterson iced Ingo... That was a brutal left hook.

My gut feeling (since Rocky had so much trouble stopping old Light Heavyweight Archie Moore and Patterson didn't) is that Marciano fought extremely weak opposition -- or way past their prime opposition -- and that's why he was never knocked out... I'm pretty certain Patterson could stop him if not just beat the living daylights out of him.

The difference between Patterson's opponents and Rocky's opponents were night and day... Floyd's were 10 X better.

Yes, both Marciano and Patterson were hard-hitting, both had spectacular KOs, including that Floyd's KO over Ingo, which is as spectacular as Rocky's over Walcott #1. And Floyd truly had a tougher opposition, however, Rocky's one wasn't that bad. Furthermore, the chin question is obvious, Patterson had issiues there. While Rocky's chin was tested. Walcott could knock people out cold, he had caught Marciano, but Rocky was able to continue easily overcoming adversity.

[Kalan]

Walcott and Moore decked Marciano... Guys like that would never put Patterson on the canvas... Patterson walked right through Moore's best shots and would have done the same if he faced the ancient Walcott....

Walcott was even knocked out by slow-assed Abe Simon... Walcott suffered 18 losses during his career and was even knocked out by Light Heavyweights.... Walcott had fewer wins -- more losses -- and more KO losses than Patterson -- who fought much better fighters than the large group who kicked Joe Walcott's ass.

[HomicideHenry]

Walcott and Moore decked Marciano... Guys like that would never put Patterson on the canvas... Patterson walked right through Moore's best shots and would have done the same if he faced the ancient Walcott....

Walcott was even knocked out by slow-assed Abe Simon... Walcott suffered 18 losses during his career and was even knocked out by Light Heavyweights.... Walcott had fewer wins -- more losses -- and more KO losses than Patterson -- who fought much better fighters than the large group who kicked Joe Walcott's ass.

are you effing kidding me right now?

[gilgamesh]

I still rate Marciano very highly, but time marches on. Before his era, Marciano could've been a champion in any period.

After his era? Fights were stopped a lot sooner. Marciano, with his cuts, split nose and swelled eyes would have had a much tougher go. If he scales the mountain, it's not for long and he certainly wouldn't be undefeated.

Yep this answer sums it up pretty well.

[Kalan]

Walcott and Moore decked Marciano... Guys like that would never put Patterson on the canvas... Patterson walked right through Moore's best shots and would have done the same if he faced the ancient Walcott....

Walcott was even knocked out by slow-assed Abe Simon... Walcott suffered 18 losses during his career and was even knocked out by Light Heavyweights.... Walcott had fewer wins -- more losses -- and more KO losses than Patterson -- who fought much better fighters than the large group who kicked Joe Walcott's ass.

are you effing kidding me right now?

So tell me HH.... Rocky couldn't put Don Cockell away faster than feather hitting light heavy Jimmy Slade did him in???

Slade had a 17% KO ratio dude -- but he mopped the floor with and destroyed the ridiculously chinny Cockell in 4...

Cockell was no greenhorn when he fought Slade... It was his 67th fight... Cockell fought Rocky in his 79th fight when he was on his last legs and done winning any fights... Slade was wasted by Floyd Patterson BTW... He couldn't box or punch.

You were obviously not around in the '50's... Or exposed to the low caliber of Heavyweights of that mob controlled era.

[HomicideHenry]

Are you implying that The Rock was bought and paid for?

[Kalan]

Damned right.... He was astutely managed, built up, and protected by shady manager Al Weill and other shady figures.

[HomicideHenry]

Damned right.... He was astutely managed, built up, and protected by shady manager Al Weill and other shady figures.

You can't argue with stupid.

However, to act as if Floyd Patterson and others weren't protected and that Cus D'Amato didn't rig the system and had crooked dealings to manipulate the IBC, etc to keep Patterson as champion is blind and lame.

[Kalan]

Don't start throwing insults Henry... This has been an open debate so far... I have blasted Patterson MANY TIMES for being protected from Sonny Liston for many years... I think a lot of things about Boxing are disgusting.

You have every right to be a fan of Marciano and Baer... I have every right to evaluate their abilities and find them lacking in speed, defensive skills, and wins over elite prime boxers... The fact that Patterson was protected doesn't mean he wouldn't make easy work of Marciano... The fact that Jimmy Braddock suffered a slew of losses doesn't mean he wouldn't have beaten Marciano as easily as he beat Baer... Neither of those men could box real well and they were wide open.

[HomicideHenry]

Don't start throwing insults Henry... This has been an open debate so far... I have blasted Patterson MANY TIMES for being protected from Sonny Liston for many years... I think a lot of things about Boxing are disgusting.

You have every right to be a fan of Marciano and Baer... I have every right to evaluate their abilities and find them lacking in speed, defensive skills, and wins over elite prime boxers... The fact that Patterson was protected doesn't mean he wouldn't make easy work of Marciano... The fact that Jimmy Braddock suffered a slew of losses doesn't mean he wouldn't have beaten Marciano as easily as he beat Baer... Neither of those men could box real well and they were wide open.

As much as I like Braddock he was just simply too tough for his own good, and by the time he turned his career around he was too old and too worn down in my view to deal with a guy who threw non-stop punches with incredible conditioning and tremendous hitting power (Marciano). I think Braddock would find out that he couldn't sufficiently outbox the man, and would try to trade like he tried with Corn Griffin and therein lies his doom. Besides, even if he survived the whole fifteen rounds, I think he'd lose the decision just like Charles lost 9 rounds to Marciano the first time around.

As for Baer, sure I like him, but he could be beaten by movers. He was embarrassed by King Levinsky, but then again so was Jack Dempsey and others. He was embarrassed by Tommy Loughran, the same man who beat Braddock. Ultimately, JJ used the same exact strategy that Loughran used against Baer and narrowly won. The irony in boxing is that Loughran couldn't do a lick with Carnera, and yet Baer dropped the Italian to the canvas a dozen times.

You seem to be the kind of guy who thinks, "Marciano needed nine rounds to put away Moore, and Patterson only needed five, therefore he is better than Marciano," but that's too simplistic. Boxing seldom works that way.

Frazier beats Ali, loses to Foreman. Norton loses to Foreman, but beats Ali. Ali defeats Norton and Foreman and Frazier. Jimmy Young beats Foreman, gets robbed against Ali, but loses to Norton.

Styles indeed make for interesting fights. Timing and circumstances is also everything. Patterson is the only fighter I can think of who was superior after he was champion. The Patterson that beat Chuvalo, Quarry, and was robbed against Ellis would have probably beaten Marciano... But we're talking about the Patterson that was dropped by Pete Rademacher and was defending the title against Tom McNeeley and Roy Harris and Brian London.

Let's go back a bit to Tommy Jackson. As mentioned before he was Marciano's sparring partner. Floyd beat him by late round stoppage. But did Floyd make Hurricane Jackson literally double over, fall to the canvas and vomit like Marciano did a few times with headgear and big gloves? No he didn't.

Many a man who fought Marciano, who later worked with Joe Louis and Patterson and others often said that just one of Marciano's punches was equal to four or five of Louis's. Many a man who worked with many guys, said that they were all surprised just exactly how difficult it was to actually land anything solid on Marciano. What was even more surprising was just how easy it seemed for him to work his way inside despite physical disadvantages. But the thing that shocked them most was the fact the man just never seemed to tire out.

Was he invincible as some insist? Hell no. Every fighter, of every style, from any era has flaws. There's always something that can be exposed. And boxing is a sport of moments, timing is everything. Anyone at any time can be dropped or knocked out. With the young version of Patterson, the very fact that he got kayoed by a wild swinging, playboy (Johansson) who telegraphed everything much like Max Baer... Gives every indication that had Marciano got back into shape, he probably would have made the over confident, well protected young man lose on a similar knockout.

[Kalan]

Don't start throwing insults Henry... This has been an open debate so far... I have blasted Patterson MANY TIMES for being protected from Sonny Liston for many years... I think a lot of things about Boxing are disgusting.

You have every right to be a fan of Marciano and Baer... I have every right to evaluate their abilities and find them lacking in speed, defensive skills, and wins over elite prime boxers... The fact that Patterson was protected doesn't mean he wouldn't make easy work of Marciano... The fact that Jimmy Braddock suffered a slew of losses doesn't mean he wouldn't have beaten Marciano as easily as he beat Baer... Neither of those men could box real well and they were wide open.

As much as I like Braddock he was just simply too tough for his own good, and by the time he turned his career around he was too old and too worn down in my view to deal with a guy who threw non-stop punches with incredible conditioning and tremendous hitting power (Marciano). I think Braddock would find out that he couldn't sufficiently outbox the man, and would try to trade like he tried with Corn Griffin and therein lies his doom. Besides, even if he survived the whole fifteen rounds, I think he'd lose the decision just like Charles lost 9 rounds to Marciano the first time around.

As for Baer, sure I like him, but he could be beaten by movers. He was embarrassed by King Levinsky, but then again so was Jack Dempsey and others. He was embarrassed by Tommy Loughran, the same man who beat Braddock. Ultimately, JJ used the same exact strategy that Loughran used against Baer and narrowly won. The irony in boxing is that Loughran couldn't do a lick with Carnera, and yet Baer dropped the Italian to the canvas a dozen times.

You seem to be the kind of guy who thinks, "Marciano needed nine rounds to put away Moore, and Patterson only needed five, therefore he is better than Marciano," but that's too simplistic. Boxing seldom works that way.

Frazier beats Ali, loses to Foreman. Norton loses to Foreman, but beats Ali. Ali defeats Norton and Foreman and Frazier. Jimmy Young beats Foreman, gets robbed against Ali, but loses to Norton.

Styles indeed make for interesting fights. Timing and circumstances is also everything. Patterson is the only fighter I can think of who was superior after he was champion. The Patterson that beat Chuvalo, Quarry, and was robbed against Ellis would have probably beaten Marciano... But we're talking about the Patterson that was dropped by Pete Rademacher and was defending the title against Tom McNeeley and Roy Harris and Brian London.

Let's go back a bit to Tommy Jackson. As mentioned before he was Marciano's sparring partner. Floyd beat him by late round stoppage. But did Floyd make Hurricane Jackson literally double over, fall to the canvas and vomit like Marciano did a few times with headgear and big gloves? No he didn't.

Many a man who fought Marciano, who later worked with Joe Louis and Patterson and others often said that just one of Marciano's punches was equal to four or five of Louis's. Many a man who worked with many guys, said that they were all surprised just exactly how difficult it was to actually land anything solid on Marciano. What was even more surprising was just how easy it seemed for him to work his way inside despite physical disadvantages. But the thing that shocked them most was the fact the man just never seemed to tire out.

Was he invincible as some insist? Hell no. Every fighter, of every style, from any era has flaws. There's always something that can be exposed. And boxing is a sport of moments, timing is everything. Anyone at any time can be dropped or knocked out. With the young version of Patterson, the very fact that he got kayoed by a wild swinging, playboy (Johansson) who telegraphed everything much like Max Baer... Gives every indication that had Marciano got back into shape, he probably would have made the over confident, well protected young man lose on a similar knockout.

Come on Henry... A lot of your stuff is just as untrue as Louis being the only guy to knock Baer down... You made that one up too.... Nobody said that one of Marciano's punches was equal to 4 or 5 of Louis's... That would be dumb.. A 21-year-old Louis was a great puncher... There's not a whole lot of Heavyweights who were equal or greater with their power, much less multiple times as powerful as Louis... Rocky never iced anyone the way Patterson did to Johansson... Also, Johansson wasn't a wild puncher... He wasn't a good boxer, but his right hand came straight away... He didn't load it up.. He just sent it in there and it was a damned forceful for a little guy who weighed 196..

Tyson weighed 218 and he socked undefeated ATG Michael Spinks out in 90 seconds.... He was brutal and compact.. Spinks was the Undefeated Lineal Heavyweight Champion at the time... Rocky weighed 184 and he couldn't get rid of Don Cockell with 9 rounds of pounding... Cockell had been knocked out many times previously and was no champion.

[HomicideHenry]

I'm starting to think you have to be a troll.

[Kalan]

You DON'T think.... When you have no facts on your side and therefore no argument -- you resort to insults.

[APerno]

Patterson was obviously extremely uncomfortable whenever he was in the vicinity of Sonny Liston... Marciano would have the same feeling, believe me... He knew he'd be a shitt sandwich if he ever fought Sonny... But he would find a way out of the fight... He would take a page from Floyd Mayweather... Rocky was smarter than Patterson about who he fought.

You shouldn't speculate on a man's courage; we can't know how he would react inside his head, standing next to Liston. - They say when Charles almost took his nose off,, his seconds were aghast and near panic but Marciano returned to the corner with a sheepish smile on his face, embarrassed that he was making things difficult for his cutman. For me it is hard to see why a man who sucks up pain the way he did, in both his fights and training, would unravel from anticipation the way Patterson did.

[Kalan]

Rocky Marciano was extremely courageous... He had guts in abundance... I'm giving him credit for being smart...

Ezzard Charles fought at 160 and 175 for most of his career... In fact, Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson and slow-assed Nino Valdes both beat Charles in 1953.. How dangerous could Charles be for Rocky in 1954?? Of course Rocky fights him... Charles was no big bomber or dangerous threat at Heavyweight anymore... He was WAY past his best... On the other hand, Sonny Liston was capable of smashing Patterson... Patterson was easily better than every man he fought Previously - but suddenly he's faced with a monster who smashes little Heavyweights.

Patterson had courage... When you're almost quaking from fear and still face the music (such as Patterson, Frazier, and Spinks did when they faced Liston, Foreman, and Tyson respectively), then you have guts... Patterson and Frazier actually went back for 2nd helpings of grief - to make it double trouble... They knew they'd get knocked out again.

They had guts....but there's a fine line between guts and nuts .... Marciano was on the right side of that line.