If Max Baer had trained for the bout against Braddock...

[Jmangho]

Let's assume Baer trained for the bout against Braddock, does Braddock still take it?

Braddock looked like he was having a tough enough time as it was, but I've seen arguments that "Braddock had taken out the #1 Prospect and #1 Contender already so he wasn't a jobber, even if Baer trained heavily, Braddock would've won."

But most of the time, Baer didn't seem to care about the fight, or about training.

People speculate if he had trained heavily for every fight, had top notch conditioning, etc that he could have been one of the best Heavyweights ever (as if he wasn't already a great to begin with).

[Ambling Alp II]

It's hard to say. First of all, I have never seen the entirety of the Braddock-Baer fight. If the description of the fight is accurate than Baer could have fought a better fight.
I doubt that Baer didn't train at all. Perhaps he could have trained harder.

If he had trainer harder, and gave more of an effort, would he have won? I would speculate that he would have. The fight was competitive as it was.

[Jmangho]

It's hard to say. First of all, I have never seen the entirety of the Braddock-Baer fight. If the description of the fight is accurate than Baer could have fought a better fight.
I doubt that Baer didn't train at all. Perhaps he could have trained harder.

If he had trainer harder, and gave more of an effort, would he have won? I would speculate that he would have. The fight was competitive as it was.

I agree, but it still would have been hard-fought, and I still doubt the match would have ended by anything but a decision.

[gilgamesh]

It's hard to say. First of all, I have never seen the entirety of the Braddock-Baer fight. If the description of the fight is accurate than Baer could have fought a better fight.
I doubt that Baer didn't train at all. Perhaps he could have trained harder.

If he had trainer harder, and gave more of an effort, would he have won? I would speculate that he would have. The fight was competitive as it was.

Good answer. This is pretty much my take on it as well.

[Caractacus]

Is it known if Max Baer was already having trouble with his hands going into the Braddock fight.
For the Louis fight reportedly he had a bone chip moving around his left wrist and an already broken hand going into ot.

http://www.boxing.com/baer_vs._louis_fa ... _hand.html

[Jmangho]

Is it known if Max Baer was already having trouble with his hands going into the Braddock fight.
For the Louis fight reportedly he had a bone chip moving around his left wrist and an already broken hand going into ot.

http://www.boxing.com/baer_vs._louis_fa ... _hand.html

It's not like Braddock's hand was much better, IIRC, he had his hand injury against Baer.

[HomicideHenry]

Personally I think Baer threw the fight. He loved the money, the fame, the women, and the movies... But he didn't love being the Heavyweight champion and what it required to hold on to... Braddock for all intents and purposes was facing a disinterested man who only put his all into the last round, and I think Baer did it more out of kindness and generosity and caution than anything else. I don't think he wanted to hurt him.

[Jmangho]

I disagree whole-heartedly, Braddock later on did very well against a young Joe Louis.

I don't believe the fight would have lasted as long as it did if Baer was holding back after not having trained for the fight, as Braddock was a great fighter in his own right and had beaten the #1 contender at the time.

[Ambling Alp II]

No way in the world Baer threw that fight.

[Caractacus]

Personally I think Baer threw the fight. He loved the money, the fame, the women, and the movies... But he didn't love being the Heavyweight champion and what it required to hold on to... Braddock for all intents and purposes was facing a disinterested man who only put his all into the last round, and I think Baer did it more out of kindness and generosity and caution than anything else. I don't think he wanted to hurt him.

yeah,i remember after the the annouced decision,Baer warmly congradulated Jim J. Braddock for the win and becoming the new Heavyweight Champion of the World.

[Kalan]

Personally I think Baer threw the fight. He loved the money, the fame, the women, and the movies... But he didn't love being the Heavyweight champion and what it required to hold on to... Braddock for all intents and purposes was facing a disinterested man who only put his all into the last round, and I think Baer did it more out of kindness and generosity and caution than anything else. I don't think he wanted to hurt him.

It's ridiculous to say Max Baer threw the fight... The Heavyweight Title is too valuable and Baer was in solid condition.

Max was a better boxer than his Brother. Buddy Baer was the worst boxer I've ever seen for a noted Heavyweight Contender. He was worse than Willard.... worse than Chuvalo.... worse than Abe Simon.... worse than Carnera.... worse than Duane Bobick.... worse than Joe Bugner.... worse than Alexander Dimitrenko.... worse than Tommy Morrison .... Max Baer at least had a sense of distance. He could throw hard, could duck a loaded punch occasionally, and could absorb a Hell of a punch... In the Schmeling fight Baer absorbed punches that would have knocked Joe Louis out. That's how he won the shot at Carnera - one of the few Heavyweight Champions Baer could have beaten. Baddock easily tagged Baer with his full arsenal of punches. Max couldn't slip punches. The fight was panned in the press and hardly a championship caliber affair. You possibly might expect World Champion boxers to have elite skills.

Louis was at ringside and he was a genuinely great Heavyweight... After the fight he commented "Nobody can tell me these are 2 of the best Heavyweights in the world. They can both hit hard and take a punch but they won't take mine." This was true. Both Baer and Braddock were easy KO victims for Louis. But Braddock could at least jab. He boxed Louis far better than Baer did. However, Braddock was a very small Heavyweight and would never have beaten Jimmy Young or Chris Byrd. Had Louis been champion when they came up, they would be footnotes.

[HomicideHenry]

I'm sorry but it's just inconceivable that a man who was well passed his prime, plagued with injuries, living off of gruel and well water, losing several fights by knockout was actually able to defeat Baer legitimately. Baer had to of thrown it away just like Buster Douglas threw the title away.

[Kalan]

Well, you're very good at making stuff up... The ONLY fighter to KO Braddock was the dynamite punching Louis... He was knocked out fewer times than Baer was in his career... It was very unlikely Baer was going to stop him.

Braddock's only other stoppage loss was due to a badly cut eye... Braddock could absorb a Hell of a punch and Louis pretty much had to trash him to get rid of him... But I believe Louis failed to ice either Baer or Braddock... They both figured their life was worth more than the ridiculously slim chance of winning... Baer was more honest about it and took the count on his knee... His expression said "That's about enough of getting my brains beaten in folks." .... Braddock hung on a lot longer, but he went down in the 8th and stayed there.

Besides underrating Braddock's chin, you're underrating his boxing skills -- such as they were... He earned his title shot by beating Art Laskey, a pretty fair Heavyweight.. Though Baer had an impressive reach he had no jab.. Nor could he slip a punch and Braddock jabbed the crap out of him..

Another problem for Baer had to be ring rust... He fought 45 times in 1929.. 1930.. 1931 and 1932... But he only fought once in 1933 and only once in 1934... Then he took another whole year off before facing Braddock... That can't be good.

Braddock also built up ring rust after winning the title... He didn't fight again for over 2 years because just holding the Title gives you a tremendous source of income... Why risk a valuable asset like that by being active??? So that's another problem in holding on to the Heavyweight Title when you DO fight... Willard probably sat on the title without defending it for as long or longer than any other Heavyweight.

[bwu]

I'm sorry but it's just inconceivable that a man who was well passed his prime, plagued with injuries, living off of gruel and well water, losing several fights by knockout was actually able to defeat Baer legitimately. Baer had to of thrown it away just like Buster Douglas threw the title away.

Had what you described been the case, your premise would be arguable. But by the time of the Baer fight, Braddock was doing much better. Michael DeLisa's book "Cinderella Man" gives a pretty fair accounting of the recovery and training of Braddock leading up to the title fight. When you read about his condition and his camp, you can see how he won.

[HomicideHenry]

His wins leading up to the championship are overdone, imho. Corn Griffin was nobody really. The rematch with John Henry Lewis is also questionable, considering that in less than five years he was blind in one eye and going blind in the other and who really knows how long he had the issues and problems. The Art Lasky fight boils down to yet another issue where had the fight been scored on points rather than rounds, one can make the argument that Lasky did enough to win considering he nearly poleaxed Braddock in the later rounds. Lasky also went 7-4-3 after Braddock and was coming off a draw and a loss before fighting Braddock. So just how meaningful the win is should be in doubt.

Baer, by his own admission, didn't really train for Braddock and was worrying himself to death that he'd hurt him and he was suffering from hand problems and for the first time in his career he was not the crowd favorite, etc... It was too much of a hassle for Baer who honestly thought that he'd get the automatic rematch, win back the title, and was doing Braddock essentially a huge favor by letting the Cinderella story come to it's conclusion. Besides that, the Associated Press scored the contest 7 rounds to 7 rounds with 1 round even. So was it really so easy and wide as people make it out to be, with Baer fighting essentially in first gear until going full bore in the last round? Even a judge for the fight scored it that way, but because of "supplemental points" (a common practice in the era) Braddock was given the championship.

Maxie's Gal, an old forum poster on here, could tell you more about the circumstances but I honestly do think Baer threw the championship away for one reason or another.

[Ambling Alp II]

The line about Corn Griffin being a nobody was accurate, almost everything else was not.

The win over Lewis was not questionable. Because Lewis had problems with his eyesight 5 years after Braddock fought him means nothing. Some of Lewis' biggest wins were after the Braddock fight.

No Lasky would not have gotton the decision had it been on points. There were no knockdowns. Doubtful he would have goon any 10-8 rounds; certainly not enough to win the fight. This fight was about 40 years before the 10-point must system.

Lasky had a loss and a draw before the Braddock fight. He performed well in the fight and could have got the decision either time. Lasky was the #3 contender going into the Braddock fight. This was a huge win for Braddock.

The notion of Baer throwing the fight makes no sense. Why go through 15 rounds if you are throwing the fight. He landed several punches threw out the fight; clearly he was trying. Might not have been a great effort, but that is a far cry form throwing the fight.
Baer didn't assume he was going to get a rematch. Carnera didn't.

homicide, you really need to do some research before spouting making comments like this.

[HomicideHenry]

I still stand by my remarks. Again look up Maxie's Gal and her old posts. He didn't give a crap either way about winning, so he threw it.

[Caractacus]

Win or loose that fight , the people would still be calling Max Baer "Champ" whenever the would meet him after it for the rest of his life.
Sort of like when the Doors played on the Ed Sullivan Show live and afterwards when they were told
that they would never be invited back because they were told not to say they word "higher" in Light My Fire,they said
"We already did the Ed Sullivan Show Man ! "

[Jmangho]

I still stand by my remarks. Again look up Maxie's Gal and her old posts. He didn't give a crap either way about winning, so he threw it.

There's no way he threw the fight, and are you forgetting that Braddock came into the fight with an injured hand?

[HomicideHenry]

I still stand by my remarks. Again look up Maxie's Gal and her old posts. He didn't give a crap either way about winning, so he threw it.

There's no way he threw the fight, and are you forgetting that Braddock came into the fight with an injured hand?

It was his ribs actually. Baer was the one with the hand issues.

[Ambling Alp II]

Braddock also had hand problems throughout his career.

[Jmangho]

I still stand by my remarks. Again look up Maxie's Gal and her old posts. He didn't give a crap either way about winning, so he threw it.

There's no way he threw the fight, and are you forgetting that Braddock came into the fight with an injured hand?

It was his ribs actually. Baer was the one with the hand issues.

Braddock had issues with his hand through-out his entire boxing career due to an injury he sustained that never truly healed.

[Caractacus]

Braddock also had hand problems throughout his career.

what was wrong with his hands ?
Did he break certain bones in it that never healled properly
or was it ligaments ?

[Jmangho]

Idk if its specific with his injuries.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Jim_Braddock

[HomicideHenry]

Braddock also had hand problems throughout his career.

what was wrong with his hands ?
Did he break certain bones in it that never healled properly
or was it ligaments ?

He fought hurt often, never really giving his body a chance to heal. He broke the bones in his hands multiple times. Plus throw in car wrecks, and broken ribs, etc. Gotta give him that, Braddock was underratedly tough.