Is Deontay Wilder vs Luis Ortiz further proof that height and reach is more important than weight at heavyweight?

[Luis Fernando12]

Considering how the much lighter Deontay Wilder defeated the much heavier Luis Ortiz, due to possessing more reach and height.

Other examples include:

- David Haye weighing below 215 pounds, knocking out Dereck Chisora who had around 30 pounds of weight advantage since Chisora weighed above 230 pounds. Whilst the much heavier Vitali Klitschko failed to KO the same Dereck Chisora, despite Vitali Klitschko weighing more than David Haye and Dereck Chisora.

- A 6 foot 2, 225 pound Alexander Povetkin was helpless against Wladimir Klitschko but a 6 foot 4, 225 pound Corrie Sanders demolished Wladimir Klitschko in 2 rounds.

- Deontay Wilder constantly destroying much heavier men, due to a height and reach advantage, despite weight disadvantage. Such as the likes of Eric Molina for example.

In all of those examples, it's height and reach and not weight that plays the biggest factor in determining whether a boxer wins or knocks out his opponents.

[Deleted_Scenes]

By your logic, Klitschko should have done better than Haye vs Chisora, as Klitschko is taller and rangier than Haye.

2nd example: The Klitschko that fought Povetkin was a completely different animal than the one who lost to Sanders - Klitschko was also taller and rangier than Sanders, so why didn't he win based on that?

Wilder has a massive get out of jail free card in his right hand every fight.

Height/reach is a factor, but it's how you use it. David Price isn't winning every fight, is he?

[asdfjkl]

If your opponent got more reach, you'll have to get close to him and clinch a lot, otherwise you'll lose. Klitschko never had that situation in his life, so lost against Fury, the match where he met someone with a longer reach. Nearly all the top guys god a long reach, especially in the higher weights, since they can't fight for 12 rounds if they are strong. Povetkin is really the only exception to this 12 rounds rule, he got an amazing stamina.

[DrDuke]

Height/reach is a factor, but it's how you use it. David Price isn't winning every fight, is he?

That's true. Wlad was a very good example of it. His chin wasn't too good, but after he teamed up with Steward he upgraded his skillset and became kinda untouchable, he demonstrated near perfect usage of his size, that's a skill also.

[Enlightened-One]

A few isolated exceptions doesn’t undermine the general “size matters” rule.

For sure, a few 5’ 10” fighters weighing 220lbs may occasionally have some success over fighters that are 6’ 5” in height or more, whilst being 250lbs+ behemoths, but the stats don’t lie.

It’s no coincidence that the vast majority of the very best of the current generation of heavyweights are taller than 6’ 4” with an average weight exceeding 245lbs.

In terms of reach though, Luis Ortiz’s was an inch longer than Deontay Wilder. Just saying.

It takes far more than height and reach alone to become a successful boxer! Weight is a factor, as is age, athleticism, determination, dedication, skill levels etc.

[SenorPipino]

Height and reach are only important if you use those advantages correctly.

Many fighters don't.

I'll vote for superior talent as the main reason a fighter wins. That attribute is a lot more important than any physical advantages.

[Syntax Error]

Considering how the much lighter Deontay Wilder defeated the much heavier Luis Ortiz, due to possessing more reach and height.

Other examples include:

- David Haye weighing below 215 pounds, knocking out Dereck Chisora who had around 30 pounds of weight advantage since Chisora weighed above 230 pounds. Whilst the much heavier Vitali Klitschko failed to KO the same Dereck Chisora, despite Vitali Klitschko weighing more than David Haye and Dereck Chisora.

- A 6 foot 2, 225 pound Alexander Povetkin was helpless against Wladimir Klitschko but a 6 foot 4, 225 pound Corrie Sanders demolished Wladimir Klitschko in 2 rounds.

- Deontay Wilder constantly destroying much heavier men, due to a height and reach advantage, despite weight disadvantage. Such as the likes of Eric Molina for example.

In all of those examples, it's height and reach and not weight that plays the biggest factor in determining whether a boxer wins or knocks out his opponents.

Dereck Chisora is not a big man, he is a fat pudding that should never have entered the ring weighing more than 225 lbs on any occasion.

Ortiz is another who is bit too fleshy for my liking & should weigh a lot less than he does.

He's got away with it prior to fighting Wilder because he is an excellent boxer with good natural ability.

Too many of these guys think that being heavy gives them some sort of advantage, but carrying blubber & needing a sports bra to hold your man tits in place is not a good thing.

[IKSRTFO]

Considering how the much lighter Deontay Wilder defeated the much heavier Luis Ortiz, due to possessing more reach and height.

Other examples include:

- David Haye weighing below 215 pounds, knocking out Dereck Chisora who had around 30 pounds of weight advantage since Chisora weighed above 230 pounds. Whilst the much heavier Vitali Klitschko failed to KO the same Dereck Chisora, despite Vitali Klitschko weighing more than David Haye and Dereck Chisora.

- A 6 foot 2, 225 pound Alexander Povetkin was helpless against Wladimir Klitschko but a 6 foot 4, 225 pound Corrie Sanders demolished Wladimir Klitschko in 2 rounds.

- Deontay Wilder constantly destroying much heavier men, due to a height and reach advantage, despite weight disadvantage. Such as the likes of Eric Molina for example.

In all of those examples, it's height and reach and not weight that plays the biggest factor in determining whether a boxer wins or knocks out his opponents.

In just about every example, the loser was moreso an out of shape, fat heavyweight against someone in shape as opposed to height and reach. It's not exactly Holyfield vs Bowe.

[BitPlayer]

It's hardly the first time someone lighter has beaten someone much heavier.

[Kalan]

Considering how the much lighter Deontay Wilder defeated the much heavier Luis Ortiz, due to possessing more reach and height.

Other examples include:

- David Haye weighing below 215 pounds, knocking out Dereck Chisora who had around 30 pounds of weight advantage since Chisora weighed above 230 pounds. Whilst the much heavier Vitali Klitschko failed to KO the same Dereck Chisora, despite Vitali Klitschko weighing more than David Haye and Dereck Chisora.

- A 6 foot 2, 225 pound Alexander Povetkin was helpless against Wladimir Klitschko but a 6 foot 4, 225 pound Corrie Sanders demolished Wladimir Klitschko in 2 rounds.

- Deontay Wilder constantly destroying much heavier men, due to a height and reach advantage, despite weight disadvantage. Such as the likes of Eric Molina for example.

In all of those examples, it's height and reach and not weight that plays the biggest factor in determining whether a boxer wins or knocks out his opponents.

Wilder weighed 214.75......the same as Liston against Patterson... Ortiz weighed 242 but he should have been 230... He looked fat and always looks fat... He suffers from high blood pressure and he's a middle aged man.... If he displayed the form he showed versus Bryant Jennings 2 years ago, I'm certain he would have won... He took too many chances going for the KO... The fight was very close.. He could have won a decision if he had a little more patience and picked his shots.

Haye is a much better fighter than Chisora and will beat him 8 days a week... Eric Molina is a terrible boxer... Wladimir Klitschko had a million problems with his stance, footwork, jab, and defense before he got with Emanuel Steward...

It was the weird angle of Corrie Sander's southpaw straight left... It found a gaping hole in Wladimir's defense... Steward closed that hole up -- and it wasn't there for Tony Thompson to exploit... He's a 6'5" X 250 southpaw.

Gerald Washington bullied Wilder for 4 rounds with his superior size and strength... However Washington is a terrible boxer with little experience and no coaching... Eventually Wilder was going to nail him because he can't defend himself.

Size and strength are more important than height and reach....but only slightly... For success in the sport of Boxing you need a number of assets... Athleticism (30 individual attributes such as speed, vision, agility, balance, and toughness) is number 1 .... Innate intelligence and cleverness is number 2 .... Skill and coaching are number 3. You won't have skill without the coaching ..... Cardio Conditioning is number 4 ..... Physical Strength is number 5 ..... Size (rock hard and ripped) is number 6 ..... Height and reach are number 7 ..... Work Ethic is number 8 ..... Resolute Determination is number 9 ...... Courage is number 10

[Ilya Muromets]

No, amigo. Just weight. If height and reach determined the class a man fought in Sebastian Fundora, 6'7" 154 lbs., would be competing with the super heavyweights! (I also responded to your question on another thread noting that Rocky Marciano had very short arms, and I think everybody he fought was taller than Mike Tyson.



Sebastian Fundora, super-heavyweight!

[Lackeos]

When Thomas Oosthuizen beats Alexander Povetkin, let me know.

[Luis Fernando12]

No, amigo. Just weight. If height and reach determined the class a man fought in Sebastian Fundora, 6'7" 154 lbs., would be competing with the super heavyweights! (I also responded to your question on another thread noting that Rocky Marciano had very short arms, and I think everybody he fought was taller than Mike Tyson.



Sebastian Fundora, super-heavyweight!

It's not just height and reach in the heavyweight division though. It's height + reach + weight in the heavyweight division. Surely, a 6 foot 7, 250 pound heavyweight with a 90 inch reach and big muscles and 6 packs is totally in a different class to a 6 foot 2, 250 pound heavyweight? Yes or no?

[Luis Fernando12]

When Thomas Oosthuizen beats Alexander Povetkin, let me know.

It's not just height and reach in the heavyweight division though. It's height + reach + weight in the heavyweight division. Surely, a 6 foot 7, 250 pound heavyweight with a 90 inch reach and big muscles and 6 packs is totally in a different class to a 6 foot 2, 250 pound heavyweight? Yes or no?

[Luis Fernando12]

Considering how the much lighter Deontay Wilder defeated the much heavier Luis Ortiz, due to possessing more reach and height.

Other examples include:

- David Haye weighing below 215 pounds, knocking out Dereck Chisora who had around 30 pounds of weight advantage since Chisora weighed above 230 pounds. Whilst the much heavier Vitali Klitschko failed to KO the same Dereck Chisora, despite Vitali Klitschko weighing more than David Haye and Dereck Chisora.

- A 6 foot 2, 225 pound Alexander Povetkin was helpless against Wladimir Klitschko but a 6 foot 4, 225 pound Corrie Sanders demolished Wladimir Klitschko in 2 rounds.

- Deontay Wilder constantly destroying much heavier men, due to a height and reach advantage, despite weight disadvantage. Such as the likes of Eric Molina for example.

In all of those examples, it's height and reach and not weight that plays the biggest factor in determining whether a boxer wins or knocks out his opponents.

Wilder weighed 214.75......the same as Liston against Patterson... Ortiz weighed 242 but he should have been 230... He looked fat and always looks fat... He suffers from high blood pressure and he's a middle aged man.... If he displayed the form he showed versus Bryant Jennings 2 years ago, I'm certain he would have won... He took too many chances going for the KO... The fight was very close.. He could have won a decision if he had a little more patience and picked his shots.

Haye is a much better fighter than Chisora and will beat him 8 days a week... Eric Molina is a terrible boxer... Wladimir Klitschko had a million problems with his stance, footwork, jab, and defense before he got with Emanuel Steward...

It was the weird angle of Corrie Sander's southpaw straight left... It found a gaping hole in Wladimir's defense... Steward closed that hole up -- and it wasn't there for Tony Thompson to exploit... He's a 6'5" X 250 southpaw.

Gerald Washington bullied Wilder for 4 rounds with his superior size and strength... However Washington is a terrible boxer with little experience and no coaching... Eventually Wilder was going to nail him because he can't defend himself.

Size and strength are more important than height and reach....but only slightly... For success in the sport of Boxing you need a number of assets... Athleticism (30 individual attributes such as speed, vision, agility, balance, and toughness) is number 1 .... Innate intelligence and cleverness is number 2 .... Skill and coaching are number 3. You won't have skill without the coaching ..... Cardio Conditioning is number 4 ..... Physical Strength is number 5 ..... Size (rock hard and ripped) is number 6 ..... Height and reach are number 7 ..... Work Ethic is number 8 ..... Resolute Determination is number 9 ...... Courage is number 10

Thanks for the informative post mate! Good read!

[Luis Fernando12]

Considering how the much lighter Deontay Wilder defeated the much heavier Luis Ortiz, due to possessing more reach and height.

Other examples include:

- David Haye weighing below 215 pounds, knocking out Dereck Chisora who had around 30 pounds of weight advantage since Chisora weighed above 230 pounds. Whilst the much heavier Vitali Klitschko failed to KO the same Dereck Chisora, despite Vitali Klitschko weighing more than David Haye and Dereck Chisora.

- A 6 foot 2, 225 pound Alexander Povetkin was helpless against Wladimir Klitschko but a 6 foot 4, 225 pound Corrie Sanders demolished Wladimir Klitschko in 2 rounds.

- Deontay Wilder constantly destroying much heavier men, due to a height and reach advantage, despite weight disadvantage. Such as the likes of Eric Molina for example.

In all of those examples, it's height and reach and not weight that plays the biggest factor in determining whether a boxer wins or knocks out his opponents.

Dereck Chisora is not a big man, he is a fat pudding that should never have entered the ring weighing more than 225 lbs on any occasion.

Ortiz is another who is bit too fleshy for my liking & should weigh a lot less than he does.

He's got away with it prior to fighting Wilder because he is an excellent boxer with good natural ability.

Too many of these guys think that being heavy gives them some sort of advantage, but carrying blubber & needing a sports bra to hold your man tits in place is not a good thing.

But what if a boxer is naturally fat, due to some innate physical condition which causes that boxer to be fat? And what if as a result, they can never lose that fat, irrespective of how much they train, exercise or workout in attempting to lose it?

[danconnollyeire]

Considering how the much lighter Deontay Wilder defeated the much heavier Luis Ortiz, due to possessing more reach and height.

Other examples include:

- David Haye weighing below 215 pounds, knocking out Dereck Chisora who had around 30 pounds of weight advantage since Chisora weighed above 230 pounds. Whilst the much heavier Vitali Klitschko failed to KO the same Dereck Chisora, despite Vitali Klitschko weighing more than David Haye and Dereck Chisora.

- A 6 foot 2, 225 pound Alexander Povetkin was helpless against Wladimir Klitschko but a 6 foot 4, 225 pound Corrie Sanders demolished Wladimir Klitschko in 2 rounds.

- Deontay Wilder constantly destroying much heavier men, due to a height and reach advantage, despite weight disadvantage. Such as the likes of Eric Molina for example.

In all of those examples, it's height and reach and not weight that plays the biggest factor in determining whether a boxer wins or knocks out his opponents.

Your logic is nonsense

Sanders didn't beat Wlad cos he was 6ft 4... he did because his hands were down and Sanders hit him with a stunning southpaw backhand

[Ilya Muromets]

No, amigo. Just weight. If height and reach determined the class a man fought in Sebastian Fundora, 6'7" 154 lbs., would be competing with the super heavyweights! (I also responded to your question on another thread noting that Rocky Marciano had very short arms, and I think everybody he fought was taller than Mike Tyson.



Sebastian Fundora, super-heavyweight!

It's not just height and reach in the heavyweight division though. It's height + reach + weight in the heavyweight division. Surely, a 6 foot 7, 250 pound heavyweight with a 90 inch reach and big muscles and 6 packs is totally in a different class to a 6 foot 2, 250 pound heavyweight? Yes or no?

No, not necessarlily. It's the mass that counts. Of course there are many factors to complicate things, but your hypothetical shorter man at the same weight is likely to be built much more sturdily.

[Lackeos]

When Thomas Oosthuizen beats Alexander Povetkin, let me know.

It's not just height and reach in the heavyweight division though. It's height + reach + weight in the heavyweight division. Surely, a 6 foot 7, 250 pound heavyweight with a 90 inch reach and big muscles and 6 packs is totally in a different class to a 6 foot 2, 250 pound heavyweight? Yes or no?

I'm inclined to say that in almost every weight division, aside from possibly heavyweight, weight is a better division cutter than weight + height + reach (presumably pounds + inches + inches). I think Jamie McDonnell (118 pounds, 5' 10", 72", 260 total) has more business fighting other bantamweights than he does fighting Vasyl Lomachenko, (129 pounds, 5' 7", 65.5", 261.5 total). Robert Easter (134 pounds, 5' 11", 76", 281 total) has more business fighting lightweights than he does fighting Manny Pacquiao (145.5 , 5' 5.5", 67", 278 total). Even at heavyweight, if you added-up pounds and inches, a 3-inch difference in height is only offset by 3 pounds of bodyweight, so Wilder's composite (215, 6' 7", 83", 377 total) is comfortably lower than Stiverne's composite (254.5, 6' 2", 77", 405.5 total).

Using weights to cut divisions remains a much fairer matchmaking system. In order to be tall for a division, you also have to be skinnier by a corresponding amount. With what you're proposing, if a fighter is tall for his division, he would have to be twice skinnier than his peers. Robert Easter would be required to weigh 11.5 pounds less than Javier Fortuna in order to be allowed to fight him; and I'd hate to imagine how skinny Robert Easter would be at 125 pounds.

[Stuarty]

Wilder isn't just a big guy. He can fight a bit! He's athletic and he has crazy power. Once he has you going he's hard to keep off, even if it is unorthodox!

[Luis Fernando12]

When Thomas Oosthuizen beats Alexander Povetkin, let me know.

It's not just height and reach in the heavyweight division though. It's height + reach + weight in the heavyweight division. Surely, a 6 foot 7, 250 pound heavyweight with a 90 inch reach and big muscles and 6 packs is totally in a different class to a 6 foot 2, 250 pound heavyweight? Yes or no?

I'm inclined to say that in almost every weight division, aside from possibly heavyweight, weight is a better division cutter than weight + height + reach (presumably pounds + inches + inches). I think Jamie McDonnell (118 pounds, 5' 10", 72", 260 total) has more business fighting other bantamweights than he does fighting Vasyl Lomachenko, (129 pounds, 5' 7", 65.5", 261.5 total). Robert Easter (134 pounds, 5' 11", 76", 281 total) has more business fighting lightweights than he does fighting Manny Pacquiao (145.5 , 5' 5.5", 67", 278 total). Even at heavyweight, if you added-up pounds and inches, a 3-inch difference in height is only offset by 3 pounds of bodyweight, so Wilder's composite (215, 6' 7", 83", 377 total) is comfortably lower than Stiverne's composite (254.5, 6' 2", 77", 405.5 total).

Using weights to cut divisions remains a much fairer matchmaking system. In order to be tall for a division, you also have to be skinnier by a corresponding amount. With what you're proposing, if a fighter is tall for his division, he would have to be twice skinnier than his peers. Robert Easter would be required to weigh 11.5 pounds less than Javier Fortuna in order to be allowed to fight him; and I'd hate to imagine how skinny Robert Easter would be at 125 pounds.

I really find the idea of adding up weight, height and reach very interesting and appealing. My point was strictly in relation to the heavyweight division and not other weight divisions because the weight is usually uniform in lower weight divisions as both boxers have to weigh within 10 - 20 pound weight limit to qualify as a boxer of that weight division.

Meanwhile, in the heavyweight division, you can have boxers potentially out-weighing their opponents by an unlimited amount. My point was that if a boxer is as tall / long as Deontay Wilder and as athletic, he doesn't need to be very heavy in weight because his height and reach would compensate and make up for his lack of weight.

Since, after a boxer reaches a specific height and reach (combined with skills and athleticism), it becomes nearly humanly impossible for any shorter boxer (irrespective of their size / weight) to win against such tall and rangy opponents that also possess skills + athleticism.

Is there any human being in history shorter than 6 foot 4 inches that could've got past Wladimir Klitschko's jab during Wlad's prime (2006 - 2012)? Is it even humanly possible? Is it even within the laws of physics / science?

How skilled does someone shorter than 6 foot 4 inches have to be in order to overcome the height and reach disadvantages against someone like Deontay Wilder, Anthony Joshua or Tyson Fury?

Do you get the point I'm making?

[Luis Fernando12]

No, amigo. Just weight. If height and reach determined the class a man fought in Sebastian Fundora, 6'7" 154 lbs., would be competing with the super heavyweights! (I also responded to your question on another thread noting that Rocky Marciano had very short arms, and I think everybody he fought was taller than Mike Tyson.



Sebastian Fundora, super-heavyweight!

It's not just height and reach in the heavyweight division though. It's height + reach + weight in the heavyweight division. Surely, a 6 foot 7, 250 pound heavyweight with a 90 inch reach and big muscles and 6 packs is totally in a different class to a 6 foot 2, 250 pound heavyweight? Yes or no?

No, not necessarlily. It's the mass that counts. Of course there are many factors to complicate things, but your hypothetical shorter man at the same weight is likely to be built much more sturdily.

But why is it that since Lennox Lewis's era, none of the shorter boxers below 6 foot 4 inches were ever able to be as successful as the Klitschkos, Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury or Lennox Lewis by becoming the number 1 dominant world heavyweight champion?

[Luis Fernando12]

Considering how the much lighter Deontay Wilder defeated the much heavier Luis Ortiz, due to possessing more reach and height.

Other examples include:

- David Haye weighing below 215 pounds, knocking out Dereck Chisora who had around 30 pounds of weight advantage since Chisora weighed above 230 pounds. Whilst the much heavier Vitali Klitschko failed to KO the same Dereck Chisora, despite Vitali Klitschko weighing more than David Haye and Dereck Chisora.

- A 6 foot 2, 225 pound Alexander Povetkin was helpless against Wladimir Klitschko but a 6 foot 4, 225 pound Corrie Sanders demolished Wladimir Klitschko in 2 rounds.

- Deontay Wilder constantly destroying much heavier men, due to a height and reach advantage, despite weight disadvantage. Such as the likes of Eric Molina for example.

In all of those examples, it's height and reach and not weight that plays the biggest factor in determining whether a boxer wins or knocks out his opponents.

Your logic is nonsense

Sanders didn't beat Wlad cos he was 6ft 4... he did because his hands were down and Sanders hit him with a stunning southpaw backhand

Height certainly played a part. Don't you think a 6 foot 7, 215 pound Deontay Wilder with an 83 inch reach would pose a greater threat to Wladimir Klitschko than a 215 pound Alexander Povetkin or David Haye who are both 6 foot 3 and 6 foot 2 respectively with less than 80 inch reach?

[Badhusker]

What about Mike Tyson's many wins against taller guys with more reach?

How about the fact that Mansour beat Breazeale every round until their fight was stopped because Mansour almost bit his tongue in half?

This thread......

[Luis Fernando12]

What about Mike Tyson's many wins against taller guys with more reach?

How about the fact that Mansour beat Breazeale every round until their fight was stopped because Mansour almost bit his tongue in half?

This thread......

Mike Tyson couldn't dominate any longer when SKILLED + ATHLETIC + TALL heavyweights like Riddick Bowe and Lennox Lewis arrived in the 1990's.

Mike Tyson only managed to beat tall opponents who were relatively unskilled or nonathletic. Mike Tyson vs Lennox Lewis is an example and a sample of how hopeless, useless and ineffective Mike Tyson was against a TALL + ATHLETIC + SKILLED SUPER HEAVYWEIGHT.

No heavyweight in history, shorter than 6 foot 4 inches would be favored to beat prime Wladimir Klitschko (2006 - 2012), prime Vitali Klitschko, Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury or Lennox Lewis barring huge upsets.

And Alexander Povetkin > Mike Tyson. And if Povetkin can't do it, then no past short heavyweight is going to.