The Worth of Rocky Marciano

[Ambling Alp II]

Walcott, Charles, and Moore are Hall of Famers. Have never heard anyone argue that any of them should not be in.

You can't just go by win/loss records in boxing. You have to take into consideration level of competition, the number of fights they had, etc. A guy can be 36-1 and be terrible. Another can be 50-18 and be much better.

Walcott was old. However, he was better at t he time that Marciano beat him for the title than he was for most of his career. Walcott was a better fighter in his 30s than in his 20s. He was an ordinary fighter in his 20s.
Watch the Walcott-Marciano fight. It was a great fight. Walcott certainly had a lot left.
Moore had beaten several top heavyweights going into the Marciano fight.
Moore and Walcott are rare exceptions to the age rule.

[Kalan]

Walcott, Charles, and Moore are Hall of Famers. Have never heard anyone argue that any of them should not be in.

You can't just go by win/loss records in boxing ….. Moore and Walcott are rare exceptions to the age rule

Only judge modern boxers by losses... If they lose even once they’re crap... The old timers could lose dozens of times. They’re still great.

Nobody argues about who should be in the HOF... It’s a hall of FAME - It’s NOT a hall of the masterfully skilled... Primo Carnera was famous. Tony Galento was famous. Ingemar Johansson was famous. So was Walcott. NONE of them had elite skills. For instance, Walcott couldn’t defend himself very well and neither could Johansson.

Walcott was in the right place at the right time like Johansson... Louis was in a state of mental and physical deterioration when he knocked out Walcott out. Walcott lost his first 2 fights with Charles, who fought as a Middleweight and Light Heavyweight for the majority of his career. Walcott finally beat Charles in their 3rd fight when Ezzard was suffering the early inroads of ALS, a slowly creeping nerve disease that eventually killed him. By his mid 30’s Charles could barely beat anybody. Ezz thought it was age, but eventually he couldn’t even hold a fork in his hand. Doctors told him it was ALS.

Louis couldn't even win a game of Table Tennis anymore by his mid 30’s - a game he was very good at as a youngster.. Boxers used to play Table Tennis in training camp to sharpen their vision and reflexes.. Louis’s mental illness and physical issues are well documented in biographies of his life.. Louis would have lost to Walcott in the rematch were it not for Walcott's weak chin and poor defense.. Walcott was knocked out several times in his career - including by Light Heavyweights – and slow and unskilled Heavyweights like Abe Simon.

Moore was a better fighter than Walcott – but Archie got knocked out a lot.. Before he fought Marciano he was knocked out by Eddie Booker, Ezzard Charles, Jimmy Bivins, and by the novice Leonard Morrow.. Moore had over 100 fights when Morrow knocked Archie cold in the 1st round. Morrow had 11 wins in 14 fights at the time. He was a massive underdog.

[gilgamesh]

He's one of the Top 10 Heavyweights of all time, and one of the only Champions to have retired undefeated. Though fans often pick against him in hypothetical dream matchups the fact of the matter is he's a Legendary name in the sport, and always will be.

Fight fans will still be talking about Marciano when we're all dead and gone.

[Caractacus]

I mis-understood the thread title.
I was going to say that no one knows for sure,
since he hid a lot of his money away ,such as big wads of bills inside of pipes somewheres.

[APerno]

I mis-understood the thread title.
I was going to say that no one knows for sure,
since he hid a lot of his money away ,such as big wads of bills inside of pipes somewheres.

From The Rock by William Nack

" . . . Most of Marciano's friends and family believe that the bulk of his savings ended up in the bomb shelter on the Ocala, Fla., estate of Bernie Castro, who died two years ago. Mary Anne used to go there with her father, and she vividly recalls him placing his hand on a pipe that ran through the shelter: "He told me, 'Remember this spot, Mary Anne. A great place to hide money. Remember this pipe.' "

A year after the accident, Mary Anne says, she and her mother went to Castro's estate to ask him if they could search the shelter. "He told us, 'Don't be silly,' " she says. They never got inside. Mary Anne figured that some of the money was in safe deposit boxes, under assumed names, and she found doodlings of Rocky's that suggested he might have used two names: Mr. Rocco and Mr. March. She tried to make sense of code words he used to write down, such as powerless and insecure, but got nowhere. "For many years I tried to put it together," she says. "I even had a CIA friend who helped me search Swiss bank accounts. Nothing." . . .

https://www.si.com/vault/1993/08/23/129 ... -out-of-it

[Controversial]

Considering that Kalan and a few others are implying that The Rock was essentially bought and paid for by the mob

In regards to the mob connection, do you not think there was a remote chance that something shady went on at some stage in his career, maybe without Marciano's knowledge? He certainly had mob connections and one of opponents (Harry Haft) always claimed he was visited in his dressing room by two heavies and told to fall down. That could be a lie of course but maybe it wasn’t. Its well known in that era the mob was heavily involved in boxing, surely they would want to be involved where the biggest money was, i.e. the HW champ.

[Ambling Alp II]

I mis-understood the thread title.
I was going to say that no one knows for sure,
since he hid a lot of his money away ,such as big wads of bills inside of pipes somewheres.

[HomicideHenry]

Considering that Kalan and a few others are implying that The Rock was essentially bought and paid for by the mob

In regards to the mob connection, do you not think there was a remote chance that something shady went on at some stage in his career, maybe without Marciano's knowledge? He certainly had mob connections and one of opponents (Harry Haft) always claimed he was visited in his dressing room by two heavies and told to fall down. That could be a lie of course but maybe it wasn’t. Its well known in that era the mob was heavily involved in boxing, surely they would want to be involved where the biggest money was, i.e. the HW champ.

Considering so many men of deep pride, and vocal about their opinions (i.e. Moore, Walcott, Charles, LaStarza) never said such a thing it makes the word of Harry Haft seem implausible. Considering he nearly killed Carmine Vingo, and many men were "never the same" after fighting him, it also makes it highly unlikely that Marciano needed any help along the way in terms of dives.

I do know that he personally was approached by mob men, and Marciano told them if they ever robbed him of a legitimate victory he'd out them all: that he didn't need any assistance what so ever, and saw such things as a slap in the face of all the hard work he ever put in.

Yearsafter he retired, Marciano did testify in the Supreme Court hearings on boxing and the manipulation of the sport by the mob and by others who changed the ratings system to suit their pockets, insisting that boxing needed a "czar" to oversee everything. So when you look at it retrospectively it makes little sense that he'd be a mob supporter.

What I find interesting is that he's singled out, just because he's Italian, about the mob. Blacks and Hispanics and Jews were also under the thumb of the mob. Ernie Terrell, for example, was mob controlled. So was Sonny Liston. Why ain't their wins ever in question?

[Kalan]

I don't doubt that most of Marciano's fights were real... But he had nobody to fight... Rocky never fought a single Heavyweight who was 6'3" X 220 with good skills, speed, agility, and punching power... There was no such animal in that weak era,,, There are literally hundreds of guys in the NBA who are over 6'3" X 220 with great skill, speed, and agility... I don't doubt that many of them have good punching power if Boxing were their sport of choice.

You wonder why there aren't more good athletes in Heavyweight Boxing... There's more today worldwide than ever -- but not hundreds... Considering the number of good candidates you see playing other sports there should be more.

You see guys from other sports who have suffered bad injuries - debilitating knee injuries like Seth Mitchell... He was like 6'4" X 240, but his knees were so bad he had 15 surgeries and he couldn't play Football anymore... He needed another place to go with his athletic talent, so he tried Boxing.. He went 25-2 but boxers need knees... You get to a certain level and you need to be 100%.. Boxing should be more attractive, so it would be the first choice of more athletes, but there's no boxing in high school or college where athletes pick up other sports.. Military boxing is a joke.. It's too bad there aren't more Boxing Gyms around more neighborhoods.. They're few and far between.

[HomicideHenry]

I don't doubt that most of Marciano's fights were real... But he had nobody to fight... Rocky never fought a single Heavyweight who was 6'3" X 220 with good skills, speed, agility, and punching power... There was no such animal in that weak era,,, There are literally hundreds of guys in the NBA who are over 6'3" X 220 with great skill, speed, and agility... I don't doubt that many of them have good punching power if Boxing were their sport of choice.

You wonder why there aren't more good athletes in Heavyweight Boxing... There's more today worldwide than ever -- but not hundreds... Considering the number of good candidates you see playing other sports there should be more.

You see guys from other sports who have suffered bad injuries - debilitating knee injuries like Seth Mitchell... He was like 6'4" X 240, but his knees were so bad he had 15 surgeries and he couldn't play Football anymore... He needed another place to go with his athletic talent, so he tried Boxing.. He went 25-2 but boxers need knees... You get to a certain level and you need to be 100%.. Boxing should be more attractive, so it would be the first choice of more athletes, but there's no boxing in high school or college where athletes pick up other sports.. Military boxing is a joke.. It's too bad there aren't more Boxing Gyms around more neighborhoods.. They're few and far between.

But you can (also) make that argument with Ali in terms of size versus skillsets. He may have fought tall men (Terrell, Wepner) but they didn't have the skills or athleticism or power. He may have fought heavy men (Mathis) but they didn't have the power or conditioning, etc. He may have fought skillful men, but today they'd be 175-195 pounders. Hell prime Foreman was only 215, five pounds above cruiserweight.

[APerno]

For what it is worth: I grew up an Italian-American in New Jersey. We were always told that the Mob had placed Marciano off-limits to a fix fight. He was to be an icon of the Italian community and was in no way to be tarnished; that Frankie Carbo and Blinky Palermo were told not to interfere. It was the sort of thing that would even show up in the sports pages; that amidst all the scandal Marciano's position was special.

If this seems over the top you need to stop and remember, Italian-Americans' have had only two HW champs and the other guy isn't remember fondly; Marciano was treated by the Italian community like a lessor god. You know, the 'big three' Sinatra, Marciano, and whoever was the fornicating Pope at the time.

This of course comes with two obvious qualifiers, if true it probably only applied after Marciano became HW champion (they wouldn't have cared before then) and then he was managed by Al Weill, which is never a good thing. There is enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that Weill was dirty. So who really knows whether they, the Mob had any influence.

[Controversial]

Considering that Kalan and a few others are implying that The Rock was essentially bought and paid for by the mob

In regards to the mob connection, do you not think there was a remote chance that something shady went on at some stage in his career, maybe without Marciano's knowledge? He certainly had mob connections and one of opponents (Harry Haft) always claimed he was visited in his dressing room by two heavies and told to fall down. That could be a lie of course but maybe it wasn’t. Its well known in that era the mob was heavily involved in boxing, surely they would want to be involved where the biggest money was, i.e. the HW champ.

Considering so many men of deep pride, and vocal about their opinions (i.e. Moore, Walcott, Charles, LaStarza) never said such a thing it makes the word of Harry Haft seem implausible. Considering he nearly killed Carmine Vingo, and many men were "never the same" after fighting him, it also makes it highly unlikely that Marciano needed any help along the way in terms of dives.

I do know that he personally was approached by mob men, and Marciano told them if they ever robbed him of a legitimate victory he'd out them all: that he didn't need any assistance what so ever, and saw such things as a slap in the face of all the hard work he ever put in.

Yearsafter he retired, Marciano did testify in the Supreme Court hearings on boxing and the manipulation of the sport by the mob and by others who changed the ratings system to suit their pockets, insisting that boxing needed a "czar" to oversee everything. So when you look at it retrospectively it makes little sense that he'd be a mob supporter.

What I find interesting is that he's singled out, just because he's Italian, about the mob. Blacks and Hispanics and Jews were also under the thumb of the mob. Ernie Terrell, for example, was mob controlled. So was Sonny Liston. Why ain't their wins ever in question?

I only mentioned Marciano as the original thread made reference to him and the mob. Of course there were others, boxing has always been corrupt, especially in the 50s and how many fighters are going to admit to it if they indeed took a dive? There are other ways of influencing a result, you don't always need the fighters to be the corrupt ones. I don't doubt Marciano was directly involved in any dirty dealings but considering the links he had close to him, and how much money could made on bets, I honestly wouldn't fall off my seat in shock if stuff came to light now.

[oogiebe]

Considering that Kalan and a few others are implying that The Rock was essentially bought and paid for by the mob and that he was also a bum...

The question becomes just how many Heavyweight champions could Marciano have beaten? How many contenders (per decade, from 1880 onwards) could he have beaten?

Let's really try and solve that equation and see if he's worthy of a top ten ranking, or if he really is so worthless. Marciano vs Everyone, is essentially the topic at hand: Sullivan to Fury.

Whose up for the challenge?

All matches are 15 rounds.

Marciano vs Sullivan
Marciano vs Corbett
Marciano vs Fitzsimmons
Marciano vs Jeffries
Marciano vs Marvin Hart
Marciano vs Tommy Burns
Marciano vs Jack Johnson
Marciano vs Jess Willard
Marciano vs Dempsey
Marciano vs Tunney
Marciano vs Sharkey
Marciano vs Schmeling
Marciano vs Carnera
Marciano vs Baer
Marciano vs Braddock
Marciano vs Louis
Marciano vs Charles
Marciano vs Walcott
Marciano vs Patterson
Marciano vs Liston
Marciano vs Ali
Marciano vs Frazier
Marciano vs Foreman
Marciano vs Norton
Marciano vs Holmes
Marciano vs The WBA Champions (80s)
Marciano vs Tyson
Marciano vs Holyfield
Marciano vs Lewis
Marciano vs The Klitschko's
Marciano vs Fury

While comparing boxers from different eras is one of the most difficult and irresistible endeavors, I can tell you this:
My uncle produced, directed and sold the Ali/Marciano computer fight. Ali came back for more money because, even though they were pulling punches for the filming, the old guy busted up ALi's arms to a severe black and blue. True story.

[Controversial]

While comparing boxers from different eras is one of the most difficult and irresistible endeavors, I can tell you this:
My uncle produced, directed and sold the Ali/Marciano computer fight. Ali came back for more money because, even though they were pulling punches for the filming, the old guy busted up ALi's arms to a severe black and blue. True story.

To be fair sparring means little, a staged fight even less. Ali was notorious for looking bad in sparring, he was decked several times whilst preparing for fights and beaten up.

[oogiebe]

While comparing boxers from different eras is one of the most difficult and irresistible endeavors, I can tell you this:
My uncle produced, directed and sold the Ali/Marciano computer fight. Ali came back for more money because, even though they were pulling punches for the filming, the old guy busted up ALi's arms to a severe black and blue. True story.

To be fair sparring means little, a staged fight even less. Ali was notorious for looking bad in sparring, he was decked several times whilst preparing for fights and beaten up.

This was by no means any evidence of outcome, just some proof of the punching power of Marciano who was around 48 when the filming was done. (BTW - if you ever see the fight, note the incredibly bad toupee of the Rock!)

[Controversial]

While comparing boxers from different eras is one of the most difficult and irresistible endeavors, I can tell you this:
My uncle produced, directed and sold the Ali/Marciano computer fight. Ali came back for more money because, even though they were pulling punches for the filming, the old guy busted up ALi's arms to a severe black and blue. True story.

To be fair sparring means little, a staged fight even less. Ali was notorious for looking bad in sparring, he was decked several times whilst preparing for fights and beaten up.

This was by no means any evidence of outcome, just some proof of the punching power of Marciano who was around 48 when the filming was done. (BTW - if you ever see the fight, note the incredibly bad toupee of the Rock!)

Yes I've seen it, it was a pretty bad hair piece lol. Interesting about your Uncle though, did he have any stories about either of them? Did he actually choreograph the fights as well?

[oogiebe]

To be fair sparring means little, a staged fight even less. Ali was notorious for looking bad in sparring, he was decked several times whilst preparing for fights and beaten up.

This was by no means any evidence of outcome, just some proof of the punching power of Marciano who was around 48 when the filming was done. (BTW - if you ever see the fight, note the incredibly bad toupee of the Rock!)

Yes I've seen it, it was a pretty bad hair piece lol. Interesting about your Uncle though, did he have any stories about either of them? Did he actually choreograph the fights as well?

OMG! Stories...My uncle had a heart attack. Ali came to visit. Ali began his clowning but my aunt Marilyn didn't take it as a joke. As the story goes...she came barging into the room and screaming and flailing, threw Ali out, leaving my Uncle Murray laughing his ass off!

As the story of the fight goes...Murray did an album on the "all time great heavyweights" of something like that. It was a radio broadcast (Don Dunphy calling the 'fights') with a round robin tourney. Ali was taken out by Jim Jeffries and Marciano won the tournament. Well, Ali was furious and came to my uncle with a proposal to do a one fight all time best match with he and Marciano...thus the computer fight.

[APerno]

This was by no means any evidence of outcome, just some proof of the punching power of Marciano who was around 48 when the filming was done. (BTW - if you ever see the fight, note the incredibly bad toupee of the Rock!)

Yes I've seen it, it was a pretty bad hair piece lol. Interesting about your Uncle though, did he have any stories about either of them? Did he actually choreograph the fights as well?

OMG! Stories...My uncle had a heart attack. Ali came to visit. Ali began his clowning but my aunt Marilyn didn't take it as a joke. As the story goes...she came barging into the room and screaming and flailing, threw Ali out, leaving my Uncle Murray laughing his ass off!

As the story of the fight goes...Murray did an album on the "all time great heavyweights" of something like that. It was a radio broadcast (Don Dunphy calling the 'fights') with a round robin tourney. Ali was taken out by Jim Jeffries and Marciano won the tournament. Well, Ali was furious and came to my uncle with a proposal to do a one fight all time best match with he and Marciano...thus the computer fight.

According to something I just read, (on the Internet, for what that is worth) Ali leveled a suit regarding the Jeffries fight, claiming it hurt his marketing ability, the promoter (I guess your uncle, is that what I just read?) got inspired, realizing he had made a nice payday out of the radio broadcasts so why not try it with film. He re-threw the computer tournament and matched Marciano and Ali in the finals. (There wasn't actually anyone else he could have done it with) It took care of the Ali problem and made him another nice payday. Win, win. Everything I read said Ali was very cooperative, even suggesting possible ending where he loses. i.e. Ali tried to make it work; tried to make it look good.

[oogiebe]

Cool you read up on it. Ali lost the final computer program by TKO, obviously it's no more accurate than Mike Tyson's Punchout. If you ever watch it...look for my dad, Irwin Berson who did the advertising, but was listed as 'counter of knockdowns' or something. My cousin David still owns the rights and re-released a few years back. I still have the original album.

[oogiebe]

It was called "the superfight"

[Controversial]

According to something I just read, (on the Internet, for what that is worth) Ali leveled a suit regarding the Jeffries fight, claiming it hurt his marketing ability, the promoter (I guess your uncle, is that what I just read?) got inspired, realizing he had made a nice payday out of the radio broadcasts so why not try it with film. He re-threw the computer tournament and matched Marciano and Ali in the finals. (There wasn't actually anyone else he could have done it with) It took care of the Ali problem and made him another nice payday. Win, win. Everything I read said Ali was very cooperative, even suggesting possible ending where he loses. i.e. Ali tried to make it work; tried to make it look good.

They filmed two endings, each one winning in the 13th round.

[oogiebe]

According to something I just read, (on the Internet, for what that is worth) Ali leveled a suit regarding the Jeffries fight, claiming it hurt his marketing ability, the promoter (I guess your uncle, is that what I just read?) got inspired, realizing he had made a nice payday out of the radio broadcasts so why not try it with film. He re-threw the computer tournament and matched Marciano and Ali in the finals. (There wasn't actually anyone else he could have done it with) It took care of the Ali problem and made him another nice payday. Win, win. Everything I read said Ali was very cooperative, even suggesting possible ending where he loses. i.e. Ali tried to make it work; tried to make it look good.

They filmed two endings, each one winning in the 13th round.

Indeed. But the actual 'film' had the Rock by TKO

[BitPlayer]

Indeed. But the actual 'film' had the Rock by TKO

Didn't the euro version have Ali winning?

[oogiebe]

Indeed. But the actual 'film' had the Rock by TKO

Didn't the euro version have Ali winning?

I honestly had no idea another version was released.

[Controversial]

Indeed. But the actual 'film' had the Rock by TKO

Didn't the euro version have Ali winning?

I honestly had no idea another version was released.

Serious, how did you not know that?