Marciano vs. Ellis

[Scypion]

Jimmy Ellis was the WBA Heavyweight Champion during the late 60's, but was not the lineal champ. After looking at the "Worth of Marciano" thread, I wondered what people here would think of a prime Marciano vs prime Ellis fight?

[BoxBuzz]

My first gut reaction is that Marciano beats Ellis, but not quite as definitively as Frazier did.

I'd bet on Marciano in this one.

[Scypion]

As said before, Jimmy Ellis was not a lineal champion, but I think that he could have beaten some of the lineal champs.. I would have him beating Marvin Hart, just to name one.

Ellis was not a match for Ali or Frazier, but not many were.

[oogiebe]

Marciano would take him out. Ellis couldn't keep him off.

[Kalan]

Ellis at his peak was one of the best boxers in the world... Ali called him "The best boxer in the world."

Ellis spent most of his career as a Middleweight and didn't reach his best form until he became a Heavyweight in 1966 with wins over Waqa, Billy Daniels, and eventually a spectacular 1-round blitzing of Jimmy Persol... That put Ellis in the 8-man Elimination Tournament to replace Ali as champion... It included Floyd Patterson, Ernie Terrell. Oscar Bonavena, Karl Mildenberger, Thad Spencer, Leotis Martin, and Jerry Quarry... Mildenberger was the #1 seed, which I thought was the joke of the century... Mildenberger was the worst fighter in the tournament... Ellis wasn't given a big chance, but he dominated his match-ups: Martin, Bonavena, and Quarry to easily win it... Unfortunately his success may have gone to his head because his form fell way off after he achieved the Heavyweight Title. He seemed soft and unmotivated after that.

With the kind of form Ellis showed versus Martin and Bonavena he would easily beat Marciano... He had a terrific straight right by which he finished Martin and he decked the bigger and more powerful Bonavena and boxed his ass off... Bonavena never hit Ellis with the kind of shots he reached Ali and Frazier with...

Ellis fell off somewhat in the Quarry fight which he still won easily -- but it was cuz Angie Dundee was screaming at him like an idiot all through the fight. That distracts your work... You're trying to concentrate on your opponent's moves and throw a punch he doesn't expect, while timing your footwork and counter to perfection - and your trainer yells "THROW THE LEFT HOOK" ..... If he's a high profile trainer who's worked with a lot of champions it's hard to tell him to keep his mouth shut during the round because he's mucking things up.

[Scypion]

In 53 fights, Ellis was only stopped 4 times to Joe Frazier twice, Muhammad Ali, and Ernie Shavers. No disgrace to be stopped by those guys. Shavers was considered one of the hardest hitters in boxing and what more needs to be said about Frazier and Ali.

[Kalan]

So I assume he's your pick over Rocky - who took 9 rounds to get rid of chinny little Don Cockell???

[Scypion]

I don't know. It is hard to compare fighters from different eras.

It would be Rocky's power against Ellis' speed. If Rocky didn't get to Jimmy with his Suzy Q, then Ellis would have a good chance (Rocky's big punch was called his Suzy Q, I think).

[Kalan]

Ellis also had power...

And it worked against real Heavyweights like Bonavena who I believe he floored twice, and he split Leotis Martin's mouthpiece in half with a terrific right hand... That version of Ellis would get rid of Don Cockell in 2 rounds max...

I believe the Marciano who fought Walcott would have gotten rid of Cockell in 2 rounds.. Rocky looked a lot better earlier.. If you hold the Title for a few years while fighting twice a year you can soften up substantially... A peak Ellis also had speed and skills to go along with his peak power, but he trailed way off against Patterson and others.. He looked terrible.

The hardest thing to do when you get to the top is maintain your edge... I would say guys who lost their edge included Ellis, Marciano, Liston, Holmes, Ali, Louis, Dempsey, Johnson, Patterson, and Tyson... Heavyweight Champs who maintained their edge as much as age permitted them were the Klitschko Bros, Joshua, Jeffries, Holyfield ,,,, and I believe Lewis to a large extent maintained his skills... Tunney didn't slack any -- but he quit after 2 defenses because of eye problems I believe.

[Scypion]

I agree that Ellis had power. Jimmy had a lot of KO's including a lot of 1st round KO's, but most were against non-contenders, He had trouble knocking out top contenders like Quarry, Martin, Bonavena, Patterson, Chuvalo, etc. Put Ellis against almost any journeyman, and he would probably get a KO.

Part of the reason Ellis declined after winning the title (WBA version) is that he had trouble getting a tune up fight for Frazier after fighting Patterson. As far as the Patterson fight, I thought that Floyd fought a good fight despite being a little bit past his best. Also, Jimmy suffered a broken nose in the first round and had to go the full 15 rounds with it.

I thought that Ellis fought pretty well against Chuvalo. Jimmy had too much speed for Chuvalo, who outweighed Ellis by about 30 lbs. Chuvalo was tough though and was a hard guy to knock out.

[oogiebe]

I agree that Ellis had power. Jimmy had a lot of KO's including a lot of 1st round KO's, but most were against non-contenders, He had trouble knocking out top contenders like Quarry, Martin, Bonavena, Patterson, Chuvalo, etc. Put Ellis against almost any journeyman, and he would probably get a KO.

Part of the reason Ellis declined after winning the title (WBA version) is that he had trouble getting a tune up fight for Frazier after fighting Patterson. As far as the Patterson fight, I thought that Floyd fought a good fight despite being a little bit past his best. Also, Jimmy suffered a broken nose in the first round and had to go the full 15 rounds with it.

I thought that Ellis fought pretty well against Chuvalo. Jimmy had too much speed for Chuvalo, who outweighed Ellis by about 30 lbs. Chuvalo was tough though and was a hard guy to knock out.

I always wondered why Liston never got a big fight after diving in Lewiston, or wasn't included in the round robin.

[Scypion]

I agree that Ellis had power. Jimmy had a lot of KO's including a lot of 1st round KO's, but most were against non-contenders, He had trouble knocking out top contenders like Quarry, Martin, Bonavena, Patterson, Chuvalo, etc. Put Ellis against almost any journeyman, and he would probably get a KO.

Part of the reason Ellis declined after winning the title (WBA version) is that he had trouble getting a tune up fight for Frazier after fighting Patterson. As far as the Patterson fight, I thought that Floyd fought a good fight despite being a little bit past his best. Also, Jimmy suffered a broken nose in the first round and had to go the full 15 rounds with it.

I thought that Ellis fought pretty well against Chuvalo. Jimmy had too much speed for Chuvalo, who outweighed Ellis by about 30 lbs. Chuvalo was tough though and was a hard guy to knock out.

I always wondered why Liston never got a big fight after diving in Lewiston, or wasn't included in the round robin.

I have wondered about that myself. After his performances against Ali, Ring Magazine did not have him ranked in the top 10 of heavyweights in 1965, 66, and 67. Probably the other boxing orgs. as well.

The fact that Liston was considered mobbed up may have been part of it too.

[sweetviolenturge]

I'm also of the opinion that Ellis would have carved up Marciano & stopped him somewhere around the 8th round.
Marciano was great for the particular time in which he reigned, but, as we know, that was a very limited era.

[Kalan]

Unbelievably limited...

Nobody who gets knocked out by a Middleweight in his prime (Don Cockell) should ever get a Heavyweight Title shot... Nobody who gets slaughtered by a feather punching Light Heavyweight in his prime (Don Cockell) should get that shot.

But Cockell wasn't the worst Heavyweight Title challenger I ever saw... Dave Zyglewicz was out slugged by a guy named Sam Wyatt, who's record was 6-7-2 and weighed 189... Then Zylewicz fought 4 guys who wouldn't be ranked in the top 200 and got a World Title Fight with Joe Frazier... He not only led with his head, but didn't move his head out of the way very often when a punch was coming.... Action starts at 1:57 and ends at 3:19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUoKtvtBFcY

[Scypion]

Unbelievably limited...

Nobody who gets knocked out by a Middleweight in his prime (Don Cockell) should ever get a Heavyweight Title shot... Nobody who gets slaughtered by a feather punching Light Heavyweight in his prime (Don Cockell) should get that shot.

But Cockell wasn't the worst Heavyweight Title challenger I ever saw... Dave Zyglewicz was out slugged by a guy named Sam Wyatt, who's record was 6-7-2 and weighed 189... Then Zylewicz fought 4 guys who wouldn't be ranked in the top 200 and got a World Title Fight with Joe Frazier... He not only led with his head, but didn't move his head out of the way very often when a punch was coming.... Action starts at 1:57 and ends at 3:19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUoKtvtBFcY

Jimmy Ellis should have fought a few guys like Ziggy instead of taking on Joe Frazier. Angelo must have known that Ellis had little chance of beating Frazier. Dundee knew a lot more about boxing than I did, so if I knew that Ellis couldn't beat Frazier, then I am sure that Angelo did.

I don't know if the WBA mandated that Ellis defend against Joe Frazier. If they did, then I would have vacated the title if I was Jimmy.

[oogiebe]

Unbelievably limited...

Nobody who gets knocked out by a Middleweight in his prime (Don Cockell) should ever get a Heavyweight Title shot... Nobody who gets slaughtered by a feather punching Light Heavyweight in his prime (Don Cockell) should get that shot.

But Cockell wasn't the worst Heavyweight Title challenger I ever saw... Dave Zyglewicz was out slugged by a guy named Sam Wyatt, who's record was 6-7-2 and weighed 189... Then Zylewicz fought 4 guys who wouldn't be ranked in the top 200 and got a World Title Fight with Joe Frazier... He not only led with his head, but didn't move his head out of the way very often when a punch was coming.... Action starts at 1:57 and ends at 3:19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUoKtvtBFcY

Jimmy Ellis should have fought a few guys like Ziggy instead of taking on Joe Frazier. Angelo must have known that Ellis had little chance of beating Frazier. Dundee knew a lot more about boxing than I did, so if I knew that Ellis couldn't beat Frazier, then I am sure that Angelo did.

I don't know if the WBA mandated that Ellis defend against Joe Frazier. If they did, then I would have vacated the title if I was Jimmy.

I never found Ellis to be that impressive. Not a bad fighter, but didn't have all the tools to compete at a high level. He prospered by post Ali era of weak round robin and a powerful NYSAC who recognized Joe Frazier. IMO.

[Scypion]

Unbelievably limited...

Nobody who gets knocked out by a Middleweight in his prime (Don Cockell) should ever get a Heavyweight Title shot... Nobody who gets slaughtered by a feather punching Light Heavyweight in his prime (Don Cockell) should get that shot.

But Cockell wasn't the worst Heavyweight Title challenger I ever saw... Dave Zyglewicz was out slugged by a guy named Sam Wyatt, who's record was 6-7-2 and weighed 189... Then Zylewicz fought 4 guys who wouldn't be ranked in the top 200 and got a World Title Fight with Joe Frazier... He not only led with his head, but didn't move his head out of the way very often when a punch was coming.... Action starts at 1:57 and ends at 3:19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUoKtvtBFcY

Jimmy Ellis should have fought a few guys like Ziggy instead of taking on Joe Frazier. Angelo must have known that Ellis had little chance of beating Frazier. Dundee knew a lot more about boxing than I did, so if I knew that Ellis couldn't beat Frazier, then I am sure that Angelo did.

I don't know if the WBA mandated that Ellis defend against Joe Frazier. If they did, then I would have vacated the title if I was Jimmy.

I never found Ellis to be that impressive. Not a bad fighter, but didn't have all the tools to compete at a high level. He prospered by post Ali era of weak round robin and a powerful NYSAC who recognized Joe Frazier. IMO.

I thought that Ellis was a very good boxer, but Joe Frazier was a monster, especially at that time. I didn't think anyone could beat him, and anyone fighting him was almost sure to take a pretty bad beating.

Other than Ali and Frazier, I think that Jimmy Ellis could have handled anyone during his prime years.

[Kalan]

During the late 1960's I thought the only guy to beat Ellis was Frazier.... However Jimmy seemed to age quickly and I had Patterson beating him by 5 rounds.... Had they clashed in the tournament it would have been a different story.

[MackVelli]

Marciano too strong for Ellis & administers the type of pressure that breaks Jimmy down. Ellis had the pinpoint power at times but did not have the power or ability of Walcott or Charles. Ellis started as a middleweight as did Archie Moore but IMO Archie would beat Ellis as well. Marciano by KO by the 5th

[Flump]

I fancy Marciano to ground Ellis down for a late rounds stoppage. Ellis would certainly do well early but eventually after Marciano has battered every part of his body he'd fold IMO, even with a competent ref.

[oogiebe]

I fancy Marciano to ground Ellis down for a late rounds stoppage. Ellis would certainly do well early but eventually after Marciano has battered every part of his body he'd fold IMO, even with a competent ref.

Yup!

[Ambling Alp II]

Interesting that people are pointing out that Ellis moved up from middleweight. He actually was a better heavyweight than a middleweight. Part of he reason was that Angelo Dundee took over his career.
Against Marciano, I am pretty much in agreement with oogiebi and flump. It would be competitive, but Marciano would eventually would probably stop him late.

[Kalan]

Marciano too strong for Ellis & administers the type of pressure that breaks Jimmy down. Ellis had the pinpoint power at times but did not have the power or ability of Walcott or Charles. Ellis started as a middleweight as did Archie Moore but IMO Archie would beat Ellis as well. Marciano by KO by the 5th

Moore didn't start as a Middleweight... He started at Welterweight and was much smaller than Ellis... Moore fought 155-pound Charley Burley when he had over 70 fights... He got knocked down 4 X by rights and hammered badly.

At his zenith Ellis had a great right hand - fast, slick, and true.. For a cross armed defense it was deadly.. Ellis outgrew the Light Heavyweight Division and Moore never did... Ellis won the Heavyweight Title and Moore tried twice - but was run over by really small opponents... Moore was very easy to hit with rights and was knocked out by Charles, Marciano, Patterson, and Clay... Most Heavy Champs with any skill level would shittcan the cross armed defender.. The Jerry Quarry who stopped Thad Spencer would probably get rid of Moore in a couple rounds.. Ellis beat Quarry with ease.

[Scypion]

Thanks for the responses. I have enjoyed reading them. This has been a good discussion.

Marciano could hit very hard. Jimmy had a good chin and was knocked down for only the second time in the first Frazier fight. In 53 fights, he was knocked out only by Frazier (twice), Ali, and Shavers. Ellis was past his prime against Shavers and in his 2nd Frazier fight.

Marciano beat great fighters in Charles, Walcott, Louis, and Moore, but all were past their best against Rocky.

Ellis was fast. Only Ali and Patterson were faster at heavyweight at the time of Ellis" prime.

As for who would win between prime Ellis and prime Marciano, I don't know. It would have been a fight that I would have loved to have seen.

[oogiebe]

Thanks for the responses. I have enjoyed reading them. This has been a good discussion.

Marciano could hit very hard. Jimmy had a good chin and was knocked down for only the second time in the first Frazier fight. In 53 fights, he was knocked out only by Frazier (twice), Ali, and Shavers. Ellis was past his prime against Shavers and in his 2nd Frazier fight.

Marciano beat great fighters in Charles, Walcott, Louis, and Moore, but all were past their best against Rocky.

Ellis was fast. Only Ali and Patterson were faster at heavyweight at the time of Ellis" prime.

As for who would win between prime Ellis and prime Marciano, I don't know. It would have been a fight that I would have loved to have seen.

Great summation! Thanks!