Joe Frazier v. Ken Norton

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Just. Fucken. Ignore.

Every one should block this goose out

[DrDuke]

They had some similarities and that was for obvious reasons. No surprise they both had been the worst match-ups for Ali. Yet Frazier was sharper, so I agree with the popular opinion, that Joe would have knocked Ken out.

[Kalan]

Norton was too big and strong for Frazier... He was smarter as well... As somebody else stated, Kenny learned every move Frazier made until he could handle him... They had to stop the 2 from sparring...

In fact, this happens a lot with sparmates... The smarter and more intuitive boxer gets beaten up when they first start sparring -- because he has no experience or whatever -- but he learns and figures you out much better... He makes much better adjustments to the last sparring session.... Eventually he starts knocking the crap out of you as he pleases.... In fact he has to take it easier and easier on you in fervent hopes that you keep sparring with him.

But both fighters know what's going on... So do the trainers... You're going to get dumped.

Eventually the fighter getting his ass beat in finds a suitable excuse to exclude you entirely from his sparring regimen... His trainer calls you and says... "You've done a great job for us during the last year and we can't thank you enough... We've learned all we can from you but we're going to change Jerry's mix of sparring for this coming camp... Keep in touch because we're going to help you line up some important fights if we can... You deserve a big fight." .... It's the old brush off.

This is the reason Ken Norton wanted the Frazier fight... But it's the last thing in the world Frazier wanted.

[BoxBuzz]

Much of what you just said is confabulation. But there is lot of intuitive stuff that I would not argue with in the generic.

Most think Frazier would have prevailed at their mutual best.........I would think in real time, you could pick dates and argue that ON THOSE DATES one or the other fighter would have an advantage.

You sort of allude to that yourself in a round about way.

I'll ask you a direct question. IN your opinion would Kenny's defense hold up against Frazier? After all Frazier did persevere over several gifted fighters that were bigger and stronger than he was. Was it the "smartness" in this case that makes the difference? Often referred to by some as "Ring Generalship".

Are you kinda sorta agreewing with my argument about why Liston was beaten by his own sparring partner? E.G. He had the keys because he had "exposure" to his opponent for so long, he simply knew the weaknesses....and thus likely to persevere despite being the "lesser fighter"? (Of course that lesser fighter never fought again because Liston kinda sort won the war, despite losing the fight by KO.)

Or do those two cases have different "reasons".

Of course in the Liston Case...it actually happened.....and the Frazier Norton fight never manifested.

[Kalan]

It is clear that Ali did anywhere from pretty well, to very well against both Kenny and Joe

It IS NOT CLEAR to anyone but YOU!!!! and other blind people such as there may be.. That's the FIRST time I ever heard that Ali did well to VERY well against Norton... Ali beat the crap out of Frazier in their 1st and their 3rd fight... He grabbed and held all night and didn't allow Smokin' to do crap in the boring assed rematch...and he stopped Joe in the rubber match... So I'd say he did very well beating up Frazier.

Norton shattered Ali's jaw in their first fight and beat the crap out of him. Norton dominated the fight and if you don't think so you're nuts.. Norton landed better and harder punches in the rematch.. somehow he lost the decision.. Ali's friend and right hand man Bundini Brown walked over to Norton after the rematch and said "You won the fight Norton. They robbed you." This was caught on TV.. The TV people even talked to Norton and said, "Ali's friend Bundini Brown just said you won the fight." Norton smiled wryly and agreed with the assessment. Most think Norton was a clear winner of the 3rd fight.. Norton barely had a mark on him after all 3 encounters. Frazier looked like a Halloween mask after 2 of them.

Well, the Ali-Norton fights were competitive, and once you get some good thick glasses and take another look, you'll be better informed.

According to Ali, Norton broke Ali's Jaw early on in that first fight, you know it, I know it and Bob Dole knows it. So Ali did pretty well when you factor that in.

A fight that he lost, but gave a very good accounting of himself.

And of course he won the other two according to the judges and referee. I know I know, they were close and a lot of people think Kenny won them both.

The fights were competitive, neither were runaway beatings, except in your over active imagination.

I didn't say they were runaway beatings... I didn't say the 2nd and 3rd fights weren't competitive... You love to attribute quotes to me I would never say... You pull pile after pile of bullcrap out of your rear because you have no argument... I said Ali was beaten up in their first fight and didn't inflict as much damage as Norton did in the next 2 fights which were gifted to him by the judges... Norton wasn't hurt or beaten up in ANY of their fights. He barely had a mark on him.. Frazier took a severe beating in the 1st and 3rd Ali fights - look at the battering his face underwent.

You never respond to my argument... You put words in my mouth and respond to that.

[gilgamesh]

Styles make fights Kalan. Frazier's style would be much more problematic for Norton than Ali's was.

[Kalan]

Much of what you just said is confabulation. But there is lot of intuitive stuff that I would not argue with in the generic.

Most think Frazier would have prevailed at their mutual best.........I would think in real time, you could pick dates and argue that ON THOSE DATES one or the other fighter would have an advantage.

You sort of allude to that yourself in a round about way.

I'll ask you a direct question. IN your opinion would Kenny's defense hold up against Frazier? After all Frazier did persevere over several gifted fighters that were bigger and stronger than he was. Was it the "smartness" in this case that makes the difference? Often referred to by some as "Ring Generalship".

Are you kinda sorta agreewing with my argument about why Liston was beaten by his own sparring partner? E.G. He had the keys because he had "exposure" to his opponent for so long, he simply knew the weaknesses....and thus likely to persevere despite being the "lesser fighter"? (Of course that lesser fighter never fought again because Liston kinda sort won the war, despite losing the fight by KO.)

Or do those two cases have different "reasons".

Of course in the Liston Case...it actually happened.....and the Frazier Norton fight never manifested.

Norton's defense would easily hold up to Frazier's offense... because Norton had tons of experience dealing with Frazier's tricks, moves, and his winging hook... Frazier had a bigger problem dealing with Norton's increasing size and strength.. Experience doesn't help you there.. You have to muscle up or get beaten up... Frazier lacked the frame.

This would not be a "Time Tunnel" fight featuring both fighters at their peak... This fight was actually proposed... They both fought Ali 3 times but never fought each other... At the time when both were top contenders and the fight made the most sense to make, Norton would be an easy winner... Easy??? Yes... He was way too big and strong for Lil Joe.

[SenorPipino]

Simply put, when Norton was at his best (74-77) he very well may have beaten the declining Frazier.

He probably would have been a slight to a solid favorite over the Frazier of those years.

But prime for prime, Frazier clearly breaks down Norton, whose ability to withstand a big punch to the head and sustained shots to belly, were always suspect.

[Kalan]

Styles make fights Kalan. Frazier's style would be much more problematic for Norton than Ali's was.

Just the opposite... Ali was wide open for left hooks so the was the perfect opponent for a prime Frazier... On the other hand a man standing 6'3" X 223, like Norton was for Bobick... That's a problem for a fat kid who's natural fighting weight was the 205 he weighed for Ali 1... Getting fatter didn't make Frazier better.

They were both wide open with their cross armed defenses... and Norton looked more awkward, bulky and possibly over muscled to some uninformed people... but with a little guy like Quarry there wasn't any penetration there whatever... Quarry did hit Frazier a lot more... Norton would hit Joe much more frequently and with greater tonnage per shot -- and Frazier would have a very difficult time reaching him because Norton knew everything Joe threw and had massive height, weight, reach, and strength on him... Frazier never beat anyone of the size, strength, and athleticism of Norton.

[BoxBuzz]

It was reported that Quarry would bully Norton when there was sparring going on between them.....Norton knew Jerry was running on empty and timed him admirably in terms of signing up to fight him. Lil' Quarry would have beaten Norton earlier in their careers.....and I believe while sparring often did just that.

How did such miracles as this take place? And how did you get this "inside info" on the Frazier Norton sparring? And as far as I know Norton never challenged frazier. Is there any newspaper interviews or other such documentation that speaks to Nortons "wish to fight Joe"?

Many of the uninformed......thought they were famous friends who agreed to avoid each other.

[Ambling Alp II]

1. Tales form the gym mean less than pre-season NFL games.
2. How was Norton to know that Quarry was supposedly running on empty?

[BoxBuzz]

1. Tales form the gym mean less than pre-season NFL games.
2. How was Norton to know that Quarry was supposedly running on empty?

I don't really disagree in any wholesale way with point one.

I'll retract my "Norton knew" statement.....Quarry thought he could handle it.....but I don't think many around him did.
Knowing aside........Norton was right in his assessment......that can not be denied at this point.

[Kalan]

It was reported that Quarry would bully Norton when there was sparring going on between them.....Norton knew Jerry was running on empty and timed him admirably in terms of signing up to fight him. Lil' Quarry would have beaten Norton earlier in their careers.....and I believe while sparring often did just that.

How did such miracles as this take place? And how did you get this "inside info" on the Frazier Norton sparring? And as far as I know Norton never challenged frazier. Is there any newspaper interviews or other such documentation that speaks to Nortons "wish to fight Joe"?

Many of the uninformed......thought they were famous friends who agreed to avoid each other.

"It was reported" .... I would like to know where you get your reports... I never heard that.

1st of all..., Norton served his apprenticeship with Frazier not Quarry, so Jerry didn't "often beat Norton" because they didn't spar often..... 2nd - Although Norton was 2 years older than Quarry he started his pro career much later than Jerry... Quarry fought Floyd Patterson twice before Norton had a single pro fight... They wouldn't have been an appropriate matchup until the early '70's... Norton fought his first 12-round match when he beat Muhammad Ali in '73 as a 10/1 underdog.

3rd..., Just before the Norton-Quarry fight, Ali was asked on the air who would win... Ali said, "I'll pick Norton to win... He's too big and strong for Quarry and a better boxer... Jerry has good skills, but Norton jabs better and he's faster."

That pretty much sizes up that fight... A one-sided drubbing instead of a contest... Quarry was 29.

The inside stuff on Norton-Frazier??? .... When Frazier as favored 4-1 to beat Foreman... Foreman bettors were talking about it... "Norton's beating on Frazier... Frazier's really FAT... George is bull strong and rock solid." ...and such as that..

You can't always believe big bettors... Sometimes they try to mislead you... But if they already bet they're gold.

[SenorPipino]

It was reported that Quarry would bully Norton when there was sparring going on between them.....Norton knew Jerry was running on empty and timed him admirably in terms of signing up to fight him. Lil' Quarry would have beaten Norton earlier in their careers.....and I believe while sparring often did just that.

How did such miracles as this take place? And how did you get this "inside info" on the Frazier Norton sparring? And as far as I know Norton never challenged frazier. Is there any newspaper interviews or other such documentation that speaks to Nortons "wish to fight Joe"?

Many of the uninformed......thought they were famous friends who agreed to avoid each other.

I'm not certain that Norton went out if his way to fight a declining Quarry at that time.

From what I recall, the semi main to Ali vs Wepner was supposed to be something completely different than Quarry-Norton.

But fighters kept falling out and eventually it was Norton vs Bonavena.

At a very late hour, Ringo also dropped out and a flabby, out of shape Quarry was quickly brought in.

Quarry was probably named as a replacement less than a week before the card.

[Kalan]

Quarry's best fights were 1. Spencer... He weighed a brick solid 192 and was the best trained of his life. After the brutal criticism of his "gift" decision over Patterson he trained to perfection. He took his time and waited for Spencer to lead, while also feinting well, picking his spots, and initiating his own leads. Patterson said "This is a different Quarry. If he keeps his head into his training and fights as focused as this, he could possibly win the tournament" ..... 2. Lyle... Lyle was very green and had knocked everybody out to that point. He had no jab and had no boxing game going as yet. Quarry trained exceptionally well and gave him a veteran boxing lesson keeping Lyle on the defensive ..... 3. Mac Foster... Same scenario. Foster blew out all the 2nd raters he fought to that point and couldn't box green bananas. He was worse than Lyle ..... 4. Earnie Shavers... Shavers was perfect for Quarry. Not as big, tall, or strong as Lyle, but a big bomber with no jab and no chin who went for the fences with every swing. Jerry had nothing but contempt for swingers and put him away quickly ..... 5. Buster Mathis... This fight fooled a lot of people cuz Mathis was tall with very quick hands and easily beat George Chuvalo. But he was a poor trainer, dumber than dirt, easily intimidated, generally flabby, and in terrible physical condition. Jerry tried to have a conversation with Mathis and wasn't impressed. "Nobody that dumb is going to beat me." He stayed close and pounded Mathis like Frazier did.

A lot of people thought Norton was made for Quarry. Gil Clancy was one. Norton was awkward, lead with his head, sometimes threw loaded, blooping punches, and Foreman couldn't miss him with a punch. Bill Slayton said Quarry was made for Norton. Norton was smarter and a better boxer than anybody thought. He was a big, strong, powerful man. Quarry was a short, small guy. Norton's hands were faster than anybody suspected. He had a good jab and quick hooks and uppercuts. If you were short and small he could get away from your punches. Norton was used to sparring with Frazier, who was Quarry's height and had faster hands. The cross armed defense has problems, but most opponents don't know how to break it.. They never see it.. Against short opponents who aren't too strong, it can be effective.

In the 1st round it was super obvious that the matchup was going to be a nightmare for Quarry... He couldn't do anything... Jerry even hit Frazier a lot more than he could hit Norton.

[Ambling Alp II]

It was reported that Quarry would bully Norton when there was sparring going on between them.....Norton knew Jerry was running on empty and timed him admirably in terms of signing up to fight him. Lil' Quarry would have beaten Norton earlier in their careers.....and I believe while sparring often did just that.

How did such miracles as this take place? And how did you get this "inside info" on the Frazier Norton sparring? And as far as I know Norton never challenged frazier. Is there any newspaper interviews or other such documentation that speaks to Nortons "wish to fight Joe"?

Many of the uninformed......thought they were famous friends who agreed to avoid each other.

I'm not certain that Norton went out if his way to fight a declining Quarry at that time.

From what I recall, the semi main to Ali vs Wepner was supposed to be something completely different than Quarry-Norton.

But fighters kept falling out and eventually it was Norton vs Bonavena.

At a very late hour, Ringo also dropped out and a flabby, out of shape Quarry was quickly brought in.

Quarry was probably named as a replacement less than a week before the card.

My problem with the Quarry out of shape excuse is this: He just had a 10 round fight less than a month before he fought Norton. If he signed for the fight a week before it happened, that means he had to have got woefully out of shape in less three weeks. That doesn't seem that plausible.

As for Frazier-Norton, they would have met if Ali and Foreman were not around. It would have been the biggest fight out there. Back then the top guys still actually fought each other; crazy notion isn't it?

[SenorPipino]

I don't think it's a stretch to believe that a fighter can get out of shape in 3 weeks.

Who knows how much barroom fighting and drinking Quarry had been doing in that time span before he received the call to step in as a replacement against Norton?

Quarry weighed 207 for the Norton bout, which was one of the highest weights of his career. He was 209 a month earlier when he cruised to a decision over the venerable Scrap Iron Johnson.

And just 197 for Frazier 9 months earlier.

So no, I believe Quarry was out of shape against Norton. Of course he was also pretty much at the end of the line physically as a world class fighter.

And Quarry was paid $185,000 as a late replacement, so it was obviously hard for him to say no, no matter what his conditioning was.

Norton, who was the considered the fresher contender as that stage (#4 vs #5 Quarry) was still only paid $100,000.

[Kalan]

As for Frazier-Norton, they would have met if Ali and Foreman were not around. It would have been the biggest fight out there. Back then the top guys still actually fought each other; crazy notion isn't it?

How about all the fights that DIDN'T happen in that era - or any other era???

Not just Norton v Frazier.... Holmes tried to get fights with Young, Ali, Foreman, Lyle and others... Young was lined up for Larry... All Jimmy had to do was beat Ossie Ocasio and he had a Title Fight - but it's like Jimmy fell off a cliff in that fight.

Quarry never met Bonavena, a really interesting fight... Karl Mildenberger got beaten bad by Bonavena and Martin.. He drew with Amos Johnson and Zora Folley, but never fought Ellis, Frazier, Quarry, and others who wanted a piece of him.

Foreman and Shavers never met... Considering his fight with Lyle that would have ended badly for Shavers... Norton and Lyle never fought.. People thought that would be a really interesting matchup, but Kenny wasn't real interested.

Fights have always been very difficult to make... It's styles... One boxer always has an edge on a possible opponent.. The fighter who sees problems will be tough to sign.. The biggest and oldest dodge in the world is the money. "I'll be glad to fight him if the money is right." .... Certainly... Just give you 10 million dollars and you'll sign right?

[Ambling Alp II]

I don't think it's a stretch to believe that a fighter can get out of shape in 3 weeks.

Who knows how much barroom fighting and drinking Quarry had been doing in that time span before he received the call to step in as a replacement against Norton?

Quarry weighed 207 for the Norton bout, which was one of the highest weights of his career. He was 209 a month earlier when he cruised to a decision over the venerable Scrap Iron Johnson.

And just 197 for Frazier 9 months earlier.

So no, I believe Quarry was out of shape against Norton. Of course he was also pretty much at the end of the line physically as a world class fighter.

And Quarry was paid $185,000 as a late replacement, so it was obviously hard for him to say no, no matter what his conditioning was.

Norton, who was the considered the fresher contender as that stage (#4 vs #5 Quarry) was still only paid $100,000.

I do think it's a stretch. So I guess we will have agree to disagree on that. (btw for years I kept hearing that Quarry took the fight on three weeks notice. Then it became one.)
Quarry weighed 209 against Randy Nuemann, just a month before he fought Lyle.

I think that he simply was not good enough to beat Norton. 4 fights against Ali and Frazier and he never made it past the 7th round. Probably didn't win a total of 4 rounds in those fights.

[SenorPipino]

Well I said that the 207 for Norton was one of the higher weights of his career, not the highest. A prime Quarry didn't even weigh 200. Usually upper 190s.

But we quibble. I need to check how late Quarry took the Norton fight. I'm certain it was much less than 3 weeks.

Regardless I feel he was out of shape and was at the end of the road physically.

The defeat to Frazier 9 months earlier was truly the end of the line for Quarry and he had no business taking on a ready contender like Norton---especially on short notice. No matter how short that notice was.

[Kalan]

Well I said that the 207 for Norton was one of the higher weights of his career, not the highest. A prime Quarry didn't even weigh 200. Usually upper 190s.

But we quibble. I need to check how late Quarry took the Norton fight. I'm certain it was much less than 3 weeks.

Regardless I feel he was out of shape and was at the end of the road physically.

The defeat to Frazier 9 months earlier was truly the end of the line for Quarry and he had no business taking on a ready contender like Norton---especially on short notice. No matter how short that notice was.

Quarry succumbed to money.... He took fights he knew he shouldn’t take because of the money... Ali did it... Frazier did it... It cost them and it cost Quarry one HELL of a lot more than the money they made... Money can’t buy health.

I used to get really angry about fights that were sanctioned. I’d write letters, call the commissioners, and blast the Hell out of them. It never did much good. They would say “Is that all of your concerns? Thanks for calling with your requests.” I don’t bother nowadays... It’s like writing your congressman or going to see him.... It’s time pissed straight down a rat-hole. It never does any good because money talks louder.