For the most part, people largely seem to rate Bob Fitzsimmons off of his fights as a heavyweight, against much larger men, and to some extent as a Light Heavyweight as an old man.
His early record is pretty shakey, perhaps unmotivated, perhaps just green. Only including fights in America (where he seemed to find his form), and only against notable fighters when he was a middleweight, his wins come down to:
Billy McCarthy
Jack Dempsey
Black Pearl
Peter Maher
Jim Hall
Joe Choynski
Dan Creedon
Billy McCarthy
I can't find any contempory reports of this. But Fitz seems to have been pretty dominant from the various accounts, possibly choosing to put on an exhibition rather than go for the stoppage.
Accounts conflict. I see either a police stoppage, or McCarthy quit at the end of the 9th (possibly to avoid police intervention).
Hard to find much info, but regarded as a top middleweight, Middleweight champion of Australia. I saw one article refer to him as a former champion of the world.
Jack Dempsey
Not really a boxing match so much as a 13 round demolition job with as many knockdowns.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 2247&hl=en
He was a bit small, but also legendary, probably the top P4P fighter of his day
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/A ... pareil.htm
Harris Martin AKA Black Pearl
Lasted the four rounds as agreed, but was overmatched
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d ... lack+pearl
Not quite the top tier, but a solid fighter. Claimed the black middleweight title in his career, as well as middleweight champion of the northwest.
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/blackpearl.htm
Peter Maher
Of course Fitz would go onto KO in a round for heavyweight honours, however this is his first first. A cagey start from Fitz on the defensive for the first 5 rounds. Fitz then landed heavilly and gave out a one sided beating, wearing out Maher he couldn't get up for the next round after the 12th.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti ... itzsimmons
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti ... itzsimmons
I don't feel I need to say anything about Peter Maher.
Jim Hall
Jim Hall had some moments, but was never on top and always on the back foot, and was taking a beating for much of it, especially the final round, clinched a lot, before quiting on his stool after the 5th.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti ... itzsimmons jim hall&searchLimits=
Fitzsimmons had a loss to Hall in Aus, but Hall achieved more than that. A notable win over Ted Pritchard, the British middleweight and heavyweight champion. Also had the better of Choynski, albeit in a light 4 round exhibition
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti ... m=choynski jim hall&searchLimits=l-decade=189
Joe Choynski
Officially a draw, but really a stoppage, and occasionally listed as such. Fitz dropped him 3 times, then police interveened.
had
http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Bob_F ... e_Choynski
Fought as a Heavyweight or L.Heavyweight, but weighed little more than a middleweight. Most famous for KOing a young Jack Johnson, by which point Joe was probably past his best. Also lasted the full 20 rounds with Jeffries. Massive puncher, sometimes rated even higher than Fitz by contempories.
Dan Creedon
Can't find any detail beyond Creedon being KOed in the second round, presumably one sided.
Would later make a claim to the world Middlweight title, and was the Middleweight Champion of Australia. Possibly most notable for beating Jem Smith who had been considered a top heavyweight, and was Heavyweight champion of England. Creedon was dominant and KOed him 2 rounds https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti ... chTerm=dan
Edit: Also had notable wins over Frank Childs and Frank Craig. Also beat DIck Moore, who at the time held any (dubious) claims to the middleweight title LaBlanche could have made, before losing to Fitzsimmons.
Bob Fitzsimmons as a middleweight, re-evaluated
Bob Fitzsimmons as a middleweight, re-evaluated
Last edited by BitPlayer on 17 Mar 2018, 13:25, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Bob Fitzsimmons as a middleweight, re-evaluated
Great newspaper article thanks for the read. - Sorry I can't add to the post, I am as ignorant on the topic as your post suggests we are.BitPlayer wrote: ↑03 Mar 2018, 20:13 Jack Dempsey
Not really a boxing match so much as a 13 round demolition job with as many knockdowns.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 2247&hl=en
Re: Bob Fitzsimmons as a middleweight, re-evaluated
Lol. I did a lot of reading and searching for this, there's still a ton for me to learn. I just enjoy trying to find out obscure and somewhat forgotten stuff.
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Sidney Carton
- Welterweight
- Posts: 324
- Joined: 06 Jun 2016, 10:58
Re: Bob Fitzsimmons as a middleweight, re-evaluated
Best middlefight by far.
If you leave him out, you can debate among Ketchel, Papke, Tommy Ryan, Greb, Walker, Zale, Robinson.
If you leave him out, you can debate among Ketchel, Papke, Tommy Ryan, Greb, Walker, Zale, Robinson.
Re: Bob Fitzsimmons as a middleweight, re-evaluated
Great stuff...spent a lot of time reading and looking. Made me want to learn more.!!! Thanks so much, really enjoyed!BitPlayer wrote: ↑03 Mar 2018, 20:13 For the most part, people largely seem to rate Bob Fitzsimmons off of his fights as a heavyweight, against much larger men, and to some extent as a Light Heavyweight as an old man.
His early record is pretty shakey, perhaps unmotivated, perhaps just green. Only including fights in America (where he seemed to find his form), and only against notable fighters when he was a middleweight, his wins come down to:
Billy McCarthy
Jack Dempsey
Black Pearl
Peter Maher
Jim Hall
Joe Choynski
Dan Creedon
Billy McCarthy
I can't find any contempory reports of this. But Fitz seems to have been pretty dominant from the various accounts, possibly choosing to put on an exhibition rather than go for the stoppage.
Accounts conflict. I see either a police stoppage, or McCarthy quit at the end of the 9th (possibly to avoid police intervention).
Hard to find much info, but regarded as a top middleweight, Middleweight champion of Australia. I saw one article refer to him as a former champion of the world.
Jack Dempsey
Not really a boxing match so much as a 13 round demolition job with as many knockdowns.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 2247&hl=en
He was a bit small, but also legendary, probably the top P4P fighter of his day
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/A ... pareil.htm
Harris Martin AKA Black Pearl
Lasted the four rounds as agreed, but was overmatched
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d ... lack+pearl
Not quite the top tier, but a solid fighter. Claimed the black middleweight title in his career, as well as middleweight champion of the northwest.
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/blackpearl.htm
Peter Maher
Of course Fitz would go onto KO in a round for heavyweight honours, however this is his first first. A cagey start from Fitz on the defensive for the first 5 rounds. Fitz then landed heavilly and gave out a one sided beating, wearing out Maher he couldn't get up for the next round after the 12th.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti ... itzsimmons
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti ... itzsimmons
I don't feel I need to say anything about Peter Maher.
Jim Hall
Jim Hall had some moments, but was never on top and always on the back foot, and was taking a beating for much of it, especially the final round, clinched a lot, before quiting on his stool after the 5th.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti ... itzsimmons jim hall&searchLimits=
Fitzsimmons had a loss to Hall in Aus, but Hall achieved more than that. A notable win over Ted Pritchard, the British middleweight and heavyweight champion. Also had the better of Choynski, albeit in a light 4 round exhibition
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti ... m=choynski jim hall&searchLimits=l-decade=189
Joe Choynski
Officially a draw, but really a stoppage, and occasionally listed as such. Fitz dropped him 3 times, then police interveened.
had
http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Bob_F ... e_Choynski
Fought as a Heavyweight or L.Heavyweight, but weighed little more than a middleweight. Most famous for KOing a young Jack Johnson, by which point Joe was probably past his best. Also lasted the full 20 rounds with Jeffries. Massive puncher, sometimes rated even higher than Fitz by contempories.
Dan Creedon
Can't find any detail beyond Creedon being KOed in the second round, presumably one sided.
Would later make a claim to the world Middlweight title, and was the Middleweight Champion of Australia. Possibly most notable for beating Jem Smith who had been considered a top heavyweight, and was Heavyweight champion of England. Creedon was dominant and KOed him 2 rounds https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti ... chTerm=dan
Edit: Also had notable wins over Frank Childs and Frank Craig. Also beat DIck Moore, who at the time held any (dubious) claims to the middleweight title LaBlanche could have made, before losing to Fitzsimmons.
Re: Bob Fitzsimmons as a middleweight, re-evaluated
Thanks, I did this pretty much in day, so this is just the tip of the iceberg.
From what I've seen on forums a lot of people seem to not have a clue about any of this, or even that the information can be found fairly easilly.
Re: Bob Fitzsimmons as a middleweight, re-evaluated
I'm sure it took a day or so, as it took me a while to get through it. Many old boxing scholars consider Fitz one of the greatest middleweights of all time. Solar Plexis punch! You got me looking up more stuff! Box on!
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Re: Bob Fitzsimmons as a middleweight, re-evaluated
Fitzsimmons simply was the best Middleweight of his era. In many respects he was a freak, in the fact that he often weighed no more than 167 pounds and accomplished what he did.
But then again, his era was commonplace for "open weight" bouts and at that time a Middleweight was considered "the middle" between welterweight and heavyweight. Charlie Mitchell and many others before him were accomplished lightweights, welterweights and middleweights before tackling heavyweights. Skills were everything then, and if you were 150 pounds and not beating heavyweights every now and then you weren't considered shit.
But the fact that Fitz was a small man who was ending fights quickly, despite size disparities, unlike his predecessors who engaged in hour, two hour, three hour marathons was incredibly unique.
What was most amazing was his ability to take punishment as much as he could give it. The fact he went 13 rounds with essentially the dirtiest player in the game (Nonpareil Dempsey) as a Middleweight and winning only gave a glimpse of what kind of man he was.
Throw in the fact that his longetivity was second to none, fighting top class men into his 40s and still winning, he was the best all around boxer of his generation. His ring IQ was incredible, too, and that was thanks to his trainers & managers, along with his tireless work ethic.
I would say that had he stayed a Middleweight that he'd of been Champion for over a decade. Sorta like how Ketchell would have been champion for a decade had he not been murdered. However, the real money and fame was at Heavyweight, and (again) you weren't considered shit unless you defeated heavyweights.
Fitzsimmons, for his part, made many large men look like complete amateurs and fools incapable of beating a man who looked like a freckled crane with his reed like legs and hook beak of a nose and ruby speckles all over his body.
And his entry into the Heavyweight division went off with a bang when he fought seven men (eight bouts) in a single day, where one opponent was 6'7" and 240 pounds. All won by knockout. His subsequent kayos of Peter Maher, Tom Sharkey, etc were mere formalities but ultimately he could do nothing with the human anvil Jim Jeffries despite Fitzsimmons might as a blacksmith. Even the greats have limitations.
But then again, his era was commonplace for "open weight" bouts and at that time a Middleweight was considered "the middle" between welterweight and heavyweight. Charlie Mitchell and many others before him were accomplished lightweights, welterweights and middleweights before tackling heavyweights. Skills were everything then, and if you were 150 pounds and not beating heavyweights every now and then you weren't considered shit.
But the fact that Fitz was a small man who was ending fights quickly, despite size disparities, unlike his predecessors who engaged in hour, two hour, three hour marathons was incredibly unique.
What was most amazing was his ability to take punishment as much as he could give it. The fact he went 13 rounds with essentially the dirtiest player in the game (Nonpareil Dempsey) as a Middleweight and winning only gave a glimpse of what kind of man he was.
Throw in the fact that his longetivity was second to none, fighting top class men into his 40s and still winning, he was the best all around boxer of his generation. His ring IQ was incredible, too, and that was thanks to his trainers & managers, along with his tireless work ethic.
I would say that had he stayed a Middleweight that he'd of been Champion for over a decade. Sorta like how Ketchell would have been champion for a decade had he not been murdered. However, the real money and fame was at Heavyweight, and (again) you weren't considered shit unless you defeated heavyweights.
Fitzsimmons, for his part, made many large men look like complete amateurs and fools incapable of beating a man who looked like a freckled crane with his reed like legs and hook beak of a nose and ruby speckles all over his body.
And his entry into the Heavyweight division went off with a bang when he fought seven men (eight bouts) in a single day, where one opponent was 6'7" and 240 pounds. All won by knockout. His subsequent kayos of Peter Maher, Tom Sharkey, etc were mere formalities but ultimately he could do nothing with the human anvil Jim Jeffries despite Fitzsimmons might as a blacksmith. Even the greats have limitations.