Marciano vs. Ellis

[oogiebe]

I wonder what Jimmy Ellis could have done if Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier were not around. Ellis fought in one of the worst eras in history to be a heavyweight.

jimmy took a pretty bad beating from Frazier, and the Ali loss had to be tough on him. Ellis had been overshadowed by Muhammad ever since his amateur days in Louisville, even though he did beat the then Cassius Clay in an amateur bout.

Jimmy may have held the championship for more than a couple of years.

He still would've gotten clobbered by LIston.

Not too sure about that. Sonny was getting up there by 1968, and was KO'd in 1969 by Leotis Martin.

True, but he would've had to fight him much sooner if those other fighters weren't around. Who knows...you guys may well be right.

[Scypion]

He still would've gotten clobbered by LIston.

Not too sure about that. Sonny was getting up there by 1968, and was KO'd in 1969 by Leotis Martin.

True, but he would've had to fight him much sooner if those other fighters weren't around. Who knows...you guys may well be right.

Good point. Of course, Ellis did not become a heavyweight until about 1965 or 1966, and if Liston was still champ then, there may have been other guys to fight before he got to Ellis, and I don't think Jimmy became a contender until about 1967, when he beat Johnny Persol.

[oogiebe]

Not too sure about that. Sonny was getting up there by 1968, and was KO'd in 1969 by Leotis Martin.

True, but he would've had to fight him much sooner if those other fighters weren't around. Who knows...you guys may well be right.

Good point. Of course, Ellis did not become a heavyweight until about 1965 or 1966, and if Liston was still champ then, there may have been other guys to fight before he got to Ellis, and I don't think Jimmy became a contender until about 1967, when he beat Johnny Persol.

I guess I just have it in my head that Ellis was a second tier heavyweight during that time, which is nothing to be ashamed of. Those second tier guys weren't all bad. Terrell; Williams(before getting shot); Chuvalo; Quarry; maybe even Sir Henry Cooper (I love that guy); etc. I'd rather see comps against the likes of those as well as Mildenberg; London, etc

[oogiebe]

True, but he would've had to fight him much sooner if those other fighters weren't around. Who knows...you guys may well be right.

Good point. Of course, Ellis did not become a heavyweight until about 1965 or 1966, and if Liston was still champ then, there may have been other guys to fight before he got to Ellis, and I don't think Jimmy became a contender until about 1967, when he beat Johnny Persol.

I guess I just have it in my head that Ellis was a second tier heavyweight during that time, which is nothing to be ashamed of. Those second tier guys weren't all bad. Terrell; Williams(before getting shot); Chuvalo; Quarry; maybe even Sir Henry Cooper (I love that guy); etc. I'd rather see comps against the likes of those as well as Mildenberg; London, etc

Anyway, getting back to the topic, in no way could Ellis have beaten the Brockton Blockbuster. He'd wear him down to a nub.

[Scypion]

True, but he would've had to fight him much sooner if those other fighters weren't around. Who knows...you guys may well be right.

Good point. Of course, Ellis did not become a heavyweight until about 1965 or 1966, and if Liston was still champ then, there may have been other guys to fight before he got to Ellis, and I don't think Jimmy became a contender until about 1967, when he beat Johnny Persol.

I guess I just have it in my head that Ellis was a second tier heavyweight during that time, which is nothing to be ashamed of. Those second tier guys weren't all bad. Terrell; Williams(before getting shot); Chuvalo; Quarry; maybe even Sir Henry Cooper (I love that guy); etc. I'd rather see comps against the likes of those as well as Mildenberg; London, etc

I used to think of Ellis that way too. I thought of him as a friend of Ali's who was promoted by the Ali camp and Angelo Dundee. After studying Jimmy's overall record, amateur and pro, I now see him as being very underrated.

[oogiebe]

Good point. Of course, Ellis did not become a heavyweight until about 1965 or 1966, and if Liston was still champ then, there may have been other guys to fight before he got to Ellis, and I don't think Jimmy became a contender until about 1967, when he beat Johnny Persol.

I guess I just have it in my head that Ellis was a second tier heavyweight during that time, which is nothing to be ashamed of. Those second tier guys weren't all bad. Terrell; Williams(before getting shot); Chuvalo; Quarry; maybe even Sir Henry Cooper (I love that guy); etc. I'd rather see comps against the likes of those as well as Mildenberg; London, etc

I used to think of Ellis that way too. I thought of him as a friend of Ali's who was promoted by the Ali camp and Angelo Dundee. After studying Jimmy's overall record, amateur and pro, I now see him as being very underrated.

I saw him fight (yeah...I'm old...) and I just couldn't find anything special. He was a "poor man's Ali." There were just so many other fighters to watch back then. Records are deceiving; perhaps with time, he looks better than he had. I don't know. Perhaps he would've been better in the LT Heavy division.

[oogiebe]

Good point. Of course, Ellis did not become a heavyweight until about 1965 or 1966, and if Liston was still champ then, there may have been other guys to fight before he got to Ellis, and I don't think Jimmy became a contender until about 1967, when he beat Johnny Persol.

I guess I just have it in my head that Ellis was a second tier heavyweight during that time, which is nothing to be ashamed of. Those second tier guys weren't all bad. Terrell; Williams(before getting shot); Chuvalo; Quarry; maybe even Sir Henry Cooper (I love that guy); etc. I'd rather see comps against the likes of those as well as Mildenberg; London, etc

I used to think of Ellis that way too. I thought of him as a friend of Ali's who was promoted by the Ali camp and Angelo Dundee. After studying Jimmy's overall record, amateur and pro, I now see him as being very underrated.

He had a great run through some of the names I mentioned and others (Bonavena; the aforementioned Martin; Quarry (questionable), etc.) I'm not saying he was bad...maybe I'm just struggling with his standing in that era.)....He was a "tweener"

[Kalan]

I guess I just have it in my head that Ellis was a second tier heavyweight during that time, which is nothing to be ashamed of. Those second tier guys weren't all bad. Terrell; Williams(before getting shot); Chuvalo; Quarry; maybe even Sir Henry Cooper (I love that guy); etc. I'd rather see comps against the likes of those as well as Mildenberg; London, etc

I used to think of Ellis that way too. I thought of him as a friend of Ali's who was promoted by the Ali camp and Angelo Dundee. After studying Jimmy's overall record, amateur and pro, I now see him as being very underrated.

He had a great run through some of the names I mentioned and others (Bonavena; the aforementioned Martin; Quarry (questionable), etc.) I'm not saying he was bad...maybe I'm just struggling with his standing in that era.)....He was a "tweener"

Nothing questionable about Ellis's victory over Quarry... He won easy, but looked flat compared to his 2 previous fights.. Dundee was screaming at him during the fight which makes it impossible to concentrate.. I don't remember if Ellis was point deducted for Dundee's screaming, but I know the referee warned Dundee..

Marciano was a tweener -- tween eras where Heavyweights were bigger than Light Heavyweights and could actually fight... This is not about how long Ellis's prime was or if he could beat Frazier, Foreman, Ali or Liston... He couldn't...

This is about the Ellis who fought Martin and Bonavena and what he would do to Marciano -- a small, short, stubby armed Heavyweight who was losing to washed up 39 year old Joe Walcott for 13 rounds... Walcott had been knocked out several times before... Rocky looked terrible vs LaStarza, Charles, Cockell, and old Archie Moore.. He vacated the Title because Patterson was arriving on the scene.... At the first sign of a tough opponent Rocky FO'd

[Kalan]

I see Kalan is still talking major crap about Marciano, completely writing him off from the history books.

Ellis wasn't poo. Never was poo. Never was going to be poo. He had to be gifted a decision over Patterson ffs. He couldn't beat the arthritis ravaged shell of Frazier.

Sometimes, I can't help but think that the 60s and 70s isn't overrated in different ways. When guys like Wepner and LeDoux and Righetti and Evangelista and the like are contenders along with the so called "legit guys" like Terrell, etc it makes you wonder just how much better were they really.

I'm not talking crap about about Rocky... He was a great fighter for his era... But if Joshua... the Klitschko Bros... Lewis... Holyfield... Tyson... Holmes... Ali.... Ellis... Frazier... Liston... or Patterson fought Marciano he would get boxed to death and knocked out... Given his size and reach, He would even have a rough time with Johansson, Braddock, Baer, and other guys who weren't real skilled.

Rocky was a good hitter and tough... But he was too small, short, slow, and unskilled to beat the best.

[HomicideHenry]

I see Kalan is still talking major crap about Marciano, completely writing him off from the history books.

Ellis wasn't shit. Never was shit. Never was going to be shit. He had to be gifted a decision over Patterson ffs. He couldn't beat the arthritis ravaged shell of Frazier.

Sometimes, I can't help but think that the 60s and 70s isn't overrated in different ways. When guys like Wepner and LeDoux and Righetti and Evangelista and the like are contenders along with the so called "legit guys" like Terrell, etc it makes you wonder just how much better were they really.

[Scypion]

JMO, but I don't agree with your assessment of Jimmy Ellis. I believe that he was the best heavyweight of the late 60's and part of the early 70's, outside of Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier. Ali and Frazier were two of the greatest fighters of all time, IMO.

As far as his 2nd fight with Frazier (ravaged with arthritis), Ellis was 35 years old at the time and Frazier was 31, and Jimmy was past it by then. That fight was about 6 months before the "Thrilla in Manila."

[Kalan]

I see Kalan is still talking major crap about Marciano, completely writing him off from the history books.

I'm not talking crap about Rocky... He was a great fighter for his era... But if Joshua... the Klitschko Bros... Lewis... Holyfield... Tyson... Holmes... Ali.... Ellis... Frazier... Liston... or Patterson fought Marciano he would get boxed to death... Given his very small size and reach, He would have a rough time with Johansson, Braddock, Baer, and others who were poorly skilled like Rocky was... Moore had a cross armed defense.. He was easy to hit for the speedy Patterson, but not for Rocky.

Rocky was a good hitter and tough... But he was far too small, short, slow, and unskilled to beat the best.

You have to watch Ellis's fights with Bonavena and Martin to appreciate how fast, powerful, and slick he was at his best... He obviously was ill prepared and looked terrible vs Patterson....though he won.. We're talking Ellis at his peak... Rocky never fought a super tough Heavyweight who was never knocked down and weighed 218 like George Chuvalo.... Ellis completely out boxed the Canadian... There were no Contenders like that when Rocky was champ... Guys like Valdes and Baker had glass chins. Almost everyone else was a real small guy.

[HomicideHenry]

Size doesn't mean much when skills are on point. I believe Charles and Walcott would have beaten alot of guys in the 60s and 70s. I believe that Joe Louis and Archie Moore would have as well. Marciano beat all of those guys. He'd of probably fell short against Ali and Sonny, but so did alot of people. Nothing to really be ashamed of.

[Kalan]

Size doesn't mean much when skills are on point.

Yes it does... Otherwise we wouldn't have Weight Divisions... We don't have Height Divisions or Reach Divisions

Patterson found all about size and strength when he faced Liston.... Frazier found out all about it when he faced Foreman.... Michael Spinks found out all about it when he faced Mike Tyson.... Buster Douglas showed Little Mike Tyson all about size.

Don Cockell was knocked out by Middleweight Randy Turpin... And blown away in 4 rounds by Little Jimmy Slade.

How long would Don Cockell would last with Floyd Patterson??? .... And how long would Cockell last with Sonny Liston???

I don't think you'd hear the sound of the bell fade away before Cockell was stretched out cold.

Now don't start talking about Carnea and Willard... We all know there's people of every size who can't walk and chew bubble gum at the same time... So let's stick to great bigger Heavyweights fighting great smaller Heavyweights... We know that in the 21st Century (18 years so far) there hasn't been a single small Heavyweight who could upset Lewis.. The Klitschko Bros.. or Joshua... It hasn't happened and it's not going to happen...

Wilder generally weighs 220 to 230 is not a small Heavyweight, but he'll be at a significant weight disadvantage when he faces Joshua... I believe that will be a big factor in the fight, though he could score an upset... He's not a guy Marciano's size doing anything - and I don't believe we'll ever see another Heavyweight Champion that size.

[oogiebe]

Size doesn't mean much when skills are on point. I believe Charles and Walcott would have beaten alot of guys in the 60s and 70s. I believe that Joe Louis and Archie Moore would have as well. Marciano beat all of those guys. He'd of probably fell short against Ali and Sonny, but so did alot of people. Nothing to really be ashamed of.

I'm assuming you mean size in the HW division...just saying...Marciano kills Ellis. We can keep on arguing, or we can make a time-machine so Kalan can prove everyone wrong. Maybe we can meet Don Cockell.

[Kalan]

Size doesn't mean much when skills are on point. I believe Charles and Walcott would have beaten alot of guys in the 60s and 70s. I believe that Joe Louis and Archie Moore would have as well. Marciano beat all of those guys. He'd of probably fell short against Ali and Sonny, but so did alot of people. Nothing to really be ashamed of.

I'm assuming you mean size in the HW division...just saying...Marciano kills Ellis. We can keep on arguing, or we can make a time-machine so Kalan can prove everyone wrong. Maybe we can meet Don Cockell.

Lacking a time machine, we can simply use logic and physics to make sense of this... What factors in???... Height... Size... Strength... Skill... Speed... Power.... Cleverness.... Athleticism.... Range... Favors Ellis in totality.

Prime opponents Rocky's size who fought like Rocky... Bonavena.... Chuvalo... Quarry... Frazier was a different style.

Prime oponents Ellis's size who fought like Ellis.... No prime opponents close to Ellis's size who fought like Ellis.

All those guys are 15 to 25 pounds bigger than Rocky, but I'm being generous.... And Quarry was a much better mover, boxer, and sharper puncher than Rocky was... Ellis mastered him anyway.... BTW...the reason I say Frazier was not Rocky's style is he came in bobbing and weaving like crazy trying to get you to lead... Then he would dip and fire quick left hooks that had terrific speed, power, accuracy and velocity... He could throw 4 or 5 in a row.. He beat the crap out of Quarry, Chuvalo, and Bonavena. Rocky was incapable of loading and throwing that many left hooks in a row with good range and power, coming out of a dip like Frazie.. You don't see that a lot and it takes a big, powerful brute like Foreman to beat it.

[oogiebe]

Size doesn't mean much when skills are on point. I believe Charles and Walcott would have beaten alot of guys in the 60s and 70s. I believe that Joe Louis and Archie Moore would have as well. Marciano beat all of those guys. He'd of probably fell short against Ali and Sonny, but so did alot of people. Nothing to really be ashamed of.

I'm assuming you mean size in the HW division...just saying...Marciano kills Ellis. We can keep on arguing, or we can make a time-machine so Kalan can prove everyone wrong. Maybe we can meet Don Cockell.

Lacking a time machine, we can simply use logic and physics to make sense of this... What factors in???... Height... Size... Strength... Skill... Speed... Power.... Cleverness.... Athleticism.... Range... Favors Ellis in totality.

Prime opponents Rocky's size who fought like Rocky... Bonavena.... Chuvalo... Quarry... Frazier was a different style.

Prime oponents Ellis's size who fought like Ellis.... No prime opponents close to Ellis's size who fought like Ellis.

Actually... All those guys are 15 to 25 pounds bigger than Rocky, but I'm being generous.... And Quarry was a much better mover, boxer, and sharper puncher than Rocky was... Ellis mastered him anyway.

I cannot believe a boxing fan doesn't take intangibles into the mix. If your approach is 100%, why have any fights at all!? Ellis' arms would be so bruised and beaten, the Rock would take him out sometime in the final third of the fight if not sooner. You must be suffering from Craneous Invertus Uranus.

[Kalan]

No that's your problem brainless... Rocky couldn't even beat on Cockell's arms enough to get the super fat boy out early...

Feather punching light heavyweight Jimmy Slade slaughtered Don Cockell in 4 rounds... Why couldn't Rocky????

Why have any fights at all??? ... Why not just put everything into a super computer and find the winner??? .... Because humans make computers and humans make mistakes... Therefore we have the fights and figure out what the odds should be... Like Tyson was a huge favorite to beat the much bigger, taller, stronger faster and more skilled Buster Douglas... And Frazier was a big favorite to beat the much bigger, taller, stronger, smarter, more powerful Foreman.

Human input figured the odds for those fights... and messed up royally... That's why they fight - might be different

[oogiebe]

No that's your problem brainless... Rocky couldn't even beat on Cockell's arms enough to get the super fat boy out early...

Feather punching light heavyweight Jimmy Slade slaughtered Don Cockell in 4 rounds... Why couldn't Rocky????

Why have any fights at all??? ... Why not just put everything into a super computer and find the winner??? .... Because humans make computers and humans make mistakes... Therefore we have the fights and figure out what the odds should be... Like Tyson was a huge favorite to beat the much bigger, taller, stronger faster and more skilled Buster Douglas... And Frazier was a big favorite to beat the much bigger, taller, stronger, smarter, more powerful Foreman.

Human input figured the odds for those fights... and messed up royally... That's why they fight - might be different

You just said exactly what I said earlier...sort of like changing your mind in the middle of a thread, but of course, that's never happened to you. Intangibles are why we play the game, fight the fight, shoot the puck, kick the ball.

[Kalan]

We all change our minds occasionally unless we're old-n-moldie... I changed my mind on the Ali-Lyle stoppage because the referee is closer to the action than I am and needs to make split second decisions before somebody gets hurt... I suppose you've never changed your mind... I do occasionally.

BTW... There was a computer elimination tournament in the 1960's to pick the greatest Heavyweight of all time...

I bet a friend of mine 10 bucks the final would feature 2 white Heavyweights... He thought Louis would be in the final... Sure enough it was Dempsey vs Marciano... Then Ali and Marciano had a computer fight... The public was eating it up.

My buddy thought they would make Ali the winner because they made Marciano the winner of the tournament... It's not that I'm a super genius or anything... It's human nature... A computer made in Alabama as Ali wryly said... I think some of you guys dug up that computer and are putting it to bad and highly biased use.

[BoxBuzz]

We all change our minds occasionally unless we're old-n-moldie... I changed my mind on the Ali-Lyle stoppage because the referee is closer to the action than I am and needs to make split second decisions before somebody gets hurt... I suppose you've never changed your mind... I do occasionally.

BTW... There was a computer elimination tournament in the 1960's to pick the greatest Heavyweight of all time...

I bet a friend of mine 10 bucks the final would feature 2 white Heavyweights... He thought Louis would be in the final... Sure enough it was Dempsey vs Marciano... Then Ali and Marciano had a computer fight... The public was eating it up.

My buddy thought they would make Ali the winner because they made Marciano the winner of the tournament... It's not that I'm a super genius or anything... It's human nature... A computer made in Alabama as Ali wryly said... I think some of you guys dug up that computer and are putting it to bad and highly biased use.

In the Ali vs Marciano fight, they both win in two different versions. In Europe the winner was Ali as I recall. Terribly produced fight by the way.....the Rocky movies looked more legit.....and Ali kept knocking Rocky's wig off, probably to attempt to make Rocky mad to bring the look of reality to the taping. Didn't look that real to me.

[oogiebe]

We all change our minds occasionally unless we're old-n-moldie... I changed my mind on the Ali-Lyle stoppage because the referee is closer to the action than I am and needs to make split second decisions before somebody gets hurt... I suppose you've never changed your mind... I do occasionally.

BTW... There was a computer elimination tournament in the 1960's to pick the greatest Heavyweight of all time...

I bet a friend of mine 10 bucks the final would feature 2 white Heavyweights... He thought Louis would be in the final... Sure enough it was Dempsey vs Marciano... Then Ali and Marciano had a computer fight... The public was eating it up.

My buddy thought they would make Ali the winner because they made Marciano the winner of the tournament... It's not that I'm a super genius or anything... It's human nature... A computer made in Alabama as Ali wryly said... I think some of you guys dug up that computer and are putting it to bad and highly biased use.

In the Ali vs Marciano fight, they both win in two different versions. In Europe the winner was Ali as I recall. Terribly produced fight by the way.....the Rocky movies looked more legit.....and Ali kept knocking Rocky's wig off, probably to attempt to make Rocky mad to bring the look of reality to the taping. Didn't look that real to me.

There was only one version. I agree the movie sucked (even the original Champ looked better). But it was 1969, and it was my Uncle, so I have to be nice..

[BoxBuzz]

Wait, I truly thought that they made it with both as winners in the original draft......so's not to give away the ending before it was released. So the scenes existed for both possibilities.

It may well be that that footage has been hijacked and manipulated, because I'm sure I've seen an alternate ending.

So if it was never an "official" two ending movie....then someone has taken liberties with it and created an alternate ending. And it looked produced in a way that I believed it was part of a legitmate process.

Are you familiar with what I'm talking about? Or does this come as a surprise to you? Anyone else seen two endings to this?

I know Rocky won in the "official initial" release. And I was unaware of the "alternate" outcome until about 10 years ago.
But as I watched it (on line) it came with the story I just shared with you. Was I snookered?

[oogiebe]

Wait, I truly thought that they made it with both as winners in the original draft......so's not to give away the ending before it was released. So the scenes existed for both possibilities.

It may well be that that footage has been hijacked and manipulated, because I'm sure I've seen an alternate ending.

So if it was never an "official" two ending movie....then someone has taken liberties with it and created an alternate ending. And it looked produced in a way that I believed it was part of a legitmate process.

Are you familiar with what I'm talking about? Or does this come as a surprise to you? Anyone else seen two endings to this?

I know Rocky won in the "official initial" release. And I was unaware of the "alternate" outcome until about 10 years ago.
But as I watched it (on line) it came with the story I just shared with you. Was I snookered?

Sounds like we went through this before on another site. Every scenario was filmed and nothing was destroyed. I may have been stolen/lost/hijacked...no alternative version was released. Checked it out with my Cousin.

[Kalan]

In the Ali vs Marciano fight, they both win in two different versions. In Europe the winner was Ali as I recall. Terribly produced fight by the way.....the Rocky movies looked more legit.....and Ali kept knocking Rocky's wig off, probably to attempt to make Rocky mad to bring the look of reality to the taping. Didn't look that real to me

Hmmm.....That's really strange... Why would they have Marciano KO Ali in the United States while having Ali win in Europe??? .... It's not as if a lot of Americans aren't constantly flying over to Europe and a lot of them wouldn't see it... It's billed as a computer doing a deep analysis and coming up with a winner... So I guess it was a split decision