Marciano vs. Ellis

[BoxBuzz]

At this point I'm going to assume there was only one sanctioned outcome. And whatever "alt" outcomes exist, were manipulations and/or dabblings with the films.

I believe "O" on this one......but I suggest you keep on the look out for those pirated versions....I do believe they exist for whatever purpose.

[Kalan]

At this point??? .... You don't have to fess up. I knew you were full of it again.

[Scypion]

Just looking at a "Ring Record Book" and in 1967 through 1969, Ring still had Muhammad Ali as the world heavyweight champion from 1967 through 1969 even though he was banned from boxing.

Jimmy Ellis was 3rd rated contender behind Joe Frazier and Thad Spencer in 1967. Ellis was the 2nd rated contender behind Joe Frazier in both 1968 and 1969.

[Kalan]

Ellis would never get a shot at Joshua if he were he fighting today... Angie Dundee would say, "Are you kidding me?"

It would even be a very tough matchup for Jimmy with the 6'3" Oleksandr Usyk... I think he gets pounded.

Cruiserweights walk around at 215.

[Scypion]

The heavyweights are generally bigger today.

[Dottier Charredo]

Marciano has become criminally underrated through time. Look at the things people said back then. Look at the things Cassius Clay said about him. The man was an amazing person to do the things he did, and a lot better than some seem to think.

[Kalan]

Actually Marciano was disrespected by many in the 1950's... Sportswriters called him crude and unskilled... Also called him a dirty fighter who would bull you with his head.. Ali wasn't nearly as complimentary about Marciano as he was after Rocky died in a tragic plane crash.. Ali said "He was too small, too short, and too slow" when asked how he'd do with Rocky.

Marciano's all time ranking actually climbed after his untimely death...

[Scypion]

Any chance that Jimmy Ellis ever gets into the IBHOF?

[Kalan]

He should but probably won't... It's not a determinator of a fighter's ability, but his popularity.

[Scypion]

I don't think he gets in either.

[Ambling Alp II]

I don't think so either. He is just not quite there. Not that there have not been worse guys in. But there are too many better than that are not in. Having said that, he is a bit underrated by some people. He always seemed like a likable guy as well.

[Scypion]

A lot of good fighters out there that would probably get in the IBHOF before Jimmy Ellis.

There is a football website that has something called the Hall of Very Good, where they induct players that were very good but have not been inducted into the Pro Football HOF. It is not supposed to lead to the HOF, but some players have gone into the PFHOF after being in the HOVG. Former Cleveland Browns guard Gene Hickerson is one of the football players that happened to.

Anyway, if there was a Hall of Very Good in boxing, then I believe that Jimmy Ellis would be a good candidate.

[Kalan]

I always wondered why Liston never got a big fight after diving in Lewiston, or wasn't included in the round robin.

Liston didn't dive... In fact, Cus D'Amato was so outraged by the way Liston was treated by the media and the Main Boxing Commission -- followed by every boxing commissions in the county (D'Amato had maintained for years that Liston shouldn't get a Title Fight because of his ex-con status)... that D'Amato (of all people) took up Liston's cause in the media...

At 30 seconds of this video you hear D'Amato shout https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIxox24A4Vo "LOOK! I don't care whose fault it was... It wasn't Liston's fault... He didn't know what count it WAS... He intended to arise and he PROVED it by arising and he DID resume fighting."

[oogiebe]

I always wondered why Liston never got a big fight after diving in Lewiston, or wasn't included in the round robin.

Liston didn't dive... In fact, Cus D'Amato was so outraged by the way Liston was treated by the media and the Main Boxing Commission -- followed by every boxing commissions in the county (D'Amato had maintained for years that Liston shouldn't get a Title Fight because of his ex-con status)... that D'Amato (of all people) took up Liston's cause in the media...

At 30 seconds of this video you hear D'Amato shout https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIxox24A4Vo "LOOK! I don't care whose fault it was... It wasn't Liston's fault... He didn't know what count it WAS... He intended to arise and he PROVED it by arising and he DID resume fighting."

I really do not care what anyone said...I saw it myself countless times. Worse acting job than WWE...Worse flop than Kevin McHale...There was a punch, but really?...he gets his head up and sees the fight still happening and flops down spread out...then he gets up...(Louis obviously confused) they spar for 15 seconds, and Louis stops it. IDK...looked wanky to me.

[Kalan]

I always wondered why Liston never got a big fight after diving in Lewiston, or wasn't included in the round robin.

Liston didn't dive... In fact, Cus D'Amato was so outraged by the way Liston was treated by the media and the Main Boxing Commission -- followed by every boxing commissions in the county (D'Amato had maintained for years that Liston shouldn't get a Title Fight because of his ex-con status)... that D'Amato (of all people) took up Liston's cause in the media...

At 30 seconds of this video you hear D'Amato shout https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIxox24A4Vo "LOOK! I don't care whose fault it was... It wasn't Liston's fault... He didn't know what count it WAS... He intended to arise and he PROVED it by arising and he DID resume fighting."

I really do not care what anyone said...I saw it myself countless times. Worse acting job than WWE...Worse flop than Kevin McHale...There was a punch, but really?...he gets his head up and sees the fight still happening and flops down spread out...then he gets up...(Louis obviously confused) they spar for 15 seconds, and Louis stops it. IDK...looked wanky to me.

Louis???? .... You ARE confused... It was WALCOTT!!! .... Liston flopped because he HAD to... He saw Ali running at him out of the corner of his eye... Ali was actin like a crazed lunatic.. He might have hit Liston while he was getting up.. The count hadn't started so what did it MATTER that Liston hit the canvas again before getting up.. He knew Ali was supposed to go to a neutral corner and the count was supposed to be SUSPENDED!!! .. YOU unearthed the rules and published them so YOU KNOW!!! .... When Liston got up Walcott, Ali, and Liston ALL thought the fight was still on!!! ... Why would Liston think the fight is over if he hadn't been counted out and if Walcott and Ali still thought the fight was on???

I think you should start answering questions instead of coming in with the bizarre viewpoint that Liston flopped for any other reason than a madman was running at him from behind instead of being in a neutral corner... You cannot read what was in his head -- and everybody thought the fight was still on.

[oogiebe]

Liston didn't dive... In fact, Cus D'Amato was so outraged by the way Liston was treated by the media and the Main Boxing Commission -- followed by every boxing commissions in the county (D'Amato had maintained for years that Liston shouldn't get a Title Fight because of his ex-con status)... that D'Amato (of all people) took up Liston's cause in the media...

At 30 seconds of this video you hear D'Amato shout https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIxox24A4Vo "LOOK! I don't care whose fault it was... It wasn't Liston's fault... He didn't know what count it WAS... He intended to arise and he PROVED it by arising and he DID resume fighting."

I really do not care what anyone said...I saw it myself countless times. Worse acting job than WWE...Worse flop than Kevin McHale...There was a punch, but really?...he gets his head up and sees the fight still happening and flops down spread out...then he gets up...(Louis obviously confused) they spar for 15 seconds, and Louis stops it. IDK...looked wanky to me.

Louis???? .... You ARE confused... It was WALCOTT!!! .... Liston flopped because he HAD to... He saw Ali running at him out of the corner of his eye... Ali was actin like a crazed lunatic.. He might have hit Liston while he was getting up.. The count hadn't started so what did it MATTER that Liston hit the canvas again before getting up.. He knew Ali was supposed to go to a neutral corner and the count was supposed to be SUSPENDED!!! .. YOU unearthed the rules and published them so YOU KNOW!!! .... When Liston got up Walcott, Ali, and Liston ALL thought the fight was still on!!! ... Why would Liston think the fight is over if he hadn't been counted out and if Walcott and Ali still thought the fight was on???

I think you should start answering questions instead of coming in with the bizarre viewpoint that Liston flopped for any other reason than a madman was running at him from behind instead of being in a neutral corner... You cannot read what was in his head -- and everybody thought the fight was still on.

"Bizarre viewpoint that Liston flopped" - yes, me and millions of others. When you ask an intelligent and non-confrontational question, I'll consider answering your 'questions.'

[Kalan]

Those questions were intelligent and non-confrontational... But they were honest... This is not soft soap.

"Millions" do NOT have the viewpoint Liston flopped... "Millions" were not surveyed about it... Many people I talked to had the same viewpoint I had... Walcott, Ali, Fleischer, the timekeeper, and the commission shared the blame.

The commission did an ass covering job and put pure propaganda out... That doesn't mean people bought it...

The commissioners didn't want to blame Walcott... They didn't want to blame the timekeeper... They didn't want to blame Nat Fleischer... They didn't want to blame the Heavyweight Champion... Who was left to blame but the ex-con??? The fight was an unholy disaster and they shifted the blame to Liston...

Why would Cus D'Amato defend Liston??? .... Cus didn't like it that Liston was being blamed when he was blameless.

[oogiebe]

Those questions were intelligent and non-confrontational... But they were honest... This is not soft soap.

"Millions" do NOT have the viewpoint Liston flopped... "Millions" were not surveyed about it... Many people I talked to had the same viewpoint I had... Walcott, Ali, Fleischer, the timekeeper, and the commission shared the blame.

The commission did an ass covering job and put pure propaganda out... That doesn't mean people bought it...

The commissioners didn't want to blame Walcott... They didn't want to blame the timekeeper... They didn't want to blame Nat Fleischer... They didn't want to blame the Heavyweight Champion... Who was left to blame but the ex-con??? The fight was an unholy disaster and they shifted the blame to Liston...

Why would Cus D'Amato defend Liston??? .... Cus didn't like it that Liston was being blamed when he was blameless.

I don't know why Cus would defend Liston. I really don't. Only Cus knew. I'll admit (he said laughingly) that it was the most bizarre series of events I've seen in a boxing match. You know way more folks than I do that the fight was on the level. I've really never heard an argument from that perspective. I ask, and I say this honestly, link something that shows at least some theories on this with respectable boxing people.

[Kalan]

Those questions were intelligent and non-confrontational... But they were honest... This is not soft soap.

"Millions" do NOT have the viewpoint Liston flopped... "Millions" were not surveyed about it... Many people I talked to had the same viewpoint I had... Walcott, Ali, Fleischer, the timekeeper, and the commission shared the blame.

The commission did an ass covering job and put pure propaganda out... That doesn't mean people bought it...

The commissioners didn't want to blame Walcott... They didn't want to blame the timekeeper... They didn't want to blame Nat Fleischer... They didn't want to blame the Heavyweight Champion... Who was left to blame but the ex-con??? The fight was an unholy disaster and they shifted the blame to Liston...

Why would Cus D'Amato defend Liston??? .... Cus didn't like it that Liston was being blamed when he was blameless.

I don't know why Cus would defend Liston. I really don't. Only Cus knew. I'll admit (he said laughingly) that it was the most bizarre series of events I've seen in a boxing match. You know way more folks than I do that the fight was on the level. I've really never heard an argument from that perspective. I ask, and I say this honestly, link something that shows at least some theories on this with respectable boxing people.

It's something that happened 53 years ago.... When cold case files get generations of dust on them, people don't like to raise the dead... All of the principles are dead.. Liston, Ali, Walcott, Fleischer, and all the member of the commission are dead.. This will never be sorted out for us til Judgment Day.

Therefore a limited number of respectable boxing people are going to spend time trying to convince the public that a massive miscarriage of justice was done.. All the principles have met their maker – so it’s been sorted out for them – and they have received Divine Justice.. The rest of us will have to wait so see exactly what that was.

[Scypion]

So, who has a better (or worse) chance of making it into the IBHOF, Jimmy Ellis or Ron Lyle?

[Scypion]

So, who has a better (or worse) chance of making it into the IBHOF, Jimmy Ellis or Ron Lyle?

I guess that they both have the same chances, slim and none.

[Tony1244]

Marciano would take him out. Ellis couldn't keep him off.

Hey I was about to say that.

[oogiebe]

Marciano would take him out. Ellis couldn't keep him off.

Hey I was about to say that.

Great minds think alike, as the saying goes.

[Crease]

Marciano vs Ellis?

I don't give Jimmy much of a chance in this matchup. Marciano takes him out within 10 rounds.

[Kalan]

Marciano would take him out. Ellis couldn't keep him off.

Hey I was about to say that.

Great minds think alike, as the saying goes.

They certainly don't.

It is easier to agree than disagree. When minds think alike it’s often the result of intellectual self-righteousness and a preference for agreement... It’s often not the result of objectivity or brilliance, but complacency.

The ability to consider problems autonomously and independently is what makes thinkers important.

At one time, everybody thought Earth was the center of the Universe. And why wouldn’t it be? WE inhabit Earth right?

The great thinker (I’m not comparing myself to him) Copernicus followed a trail of facts that led indisputably to the conclusion that Earth orbits around the sun.... which is one of billions of star systems orbiting around the outskirts of our Milky Way Galaxy.... which is one of billions of Galaxies orbiting around the center of our Universe.

Copernicus shook up the scientific community with his findings.

Likewise Einstein, Newton, Galileo, Tesla, Franklin, Mendel, Planck, Gauss, Turing, Heisenberg, and Faraday were original thinkers who went outside the boxes that conventional wisdom imposes.

Ellis at his best was too fast, slick, skillful, mobile, smart – and at 6’1” X 195 for Martin and Bonavena, I’ll even say too big, tall, rangy, and hard punching for Marciano – when you combine those particular advantages with his other fistic talents.

Remember both Walcott and Charles were out-boxing Marciano early – despite the fact that the aging Walcott lost 16 fights coming into his fight with Marciano – and a rapidly slipping Charles was out boxed by Nino Valdes and Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson in the year previous to fighting Marciano (1953).