I would like to start listing the lineal champion as we do the IBF, WBC, WBA etc. Listing the lineal title fights would give visitors the ability to trace the title right back to the begining.
I would start off where the bogus governing bodies began. EG: We all know Dempsey was the champ so I don't have to go back and list him as lineal champ. There was only one title then.
BUt in Holmes time when there was three titles, I would list his fights as for the lineal title.
Eventually, with help from others I would hope, I will have right from the begining the title passing threw. In every weight class from the beginning of the gloved era.
WHen this is completed visitors can pull up title fights for the lineal title like they can every other title in the search option.
SOme problems...In new divisions like the cruiserweights, that had no title lineage before the governing bodies came in, should we go with the first cruiserweight champion (Cruiserweight division was started in 1980 when Marvin Camal won the WBC title by beating Mate Pavlov) or start it with the first publicly accepted universal champion (Evander Holyfield left no doubt as to who is the champ by beating all other claiments to the title)?
Please let me know your opinions.
Listing the Lineal champions
The Complete Lineal History for every Division is already on the Cyber Boxing Zone
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/pastchp.htm
Would I like to see the CBZ Lineal list incorporated as an option on BOXREC -- ABSOLUTELY
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/pastchp.htm
Would I like to see the CBZ Lineal list incorporated as an option on BOXREC -- ABSOLUTELY
Thanks! 
I think it would be a lot easier if the lineal title was an option to add to the title of a fight when editing. There is got to be 50 different titles you can tack on to a fight from all the different bogus governing bodies to regional titles, but lineal title is not an option.
I don't see why not. It is the oldest and most respected title. Help me out here guys. I am going to start soon...
I think it would be a lot easier if the lineal title was an option to add to the title of a fight when editing. There is got to be 50 different titles you can tack on to a fight from all the different bogus governing bodies to regional titles, but lineal title is not an option.
I don't see why not. It is the oldest and most respected title. Help me out here guys. I am going to start soon...
Yeah I have notice some fights are listed as for the lineal title. But I think we should make a serious effort to make them all listed.
So when visitors go to the search option and they search by title in a division they can trace the lineal title right to the begining as oppose to these bogus titles that have no lineage with constant stripping and vacancies.
So when visitors go to the search option and they search by title in a division they can trace the lineal title right to the begining as oppose to these bogus titles that have no lineage with constant stripping and vacancies.
Hang on guys. The editors have discussed lineal titles on several occasions and the decision has been made NOT to include lineal titles.
Lineal titles have been deemed to be 'subjective' (despite passionate arguments to the contrary from delisa) and are NOT to be listed. Efforts were made to delete all references to them, so please don't start adding them again without the ultimate say so (John).
Regards,
Lineal titles have been deemed to be 'subjective' (despite passionate arguments to the contrary from delisa) and are NOT to be listed. Efforts were made to delete all references to them, so please don't start adding them again without the ultimate say so (John).
Regards,
I disagree with putting lineal titles on this site. It is editorializing in my opinion, since there is no organization behind this. Personally I believe lineal titles have credence, but I don't think they have a place here.
I have a problem with calling somene else THE champ of a certain designation, in this case Lineal, when someone can make an entirely different claim of that same title.
I think we sometimes lose credibility with people when we go to far editorializing comments on current fights. To me doing that to titles is going too far.
I have a problem with calling somene else THE champ of a certain designation, in this case Lineal, when someone can make an entirely different claim of that same title.
I think we sometimes lose credibility with people when we go to far editorializing comments on current fights. To me doing that to titles is going too far.
I didn't make clear -- the Lineal Titles are on the CBZ --
would I like to see them here -- yes BUT I too agree that they are editorializing so should NOT be included in the records. The link I provided is a guide for those who want to see what the CBZ historians have identified as the Lineal Titleholders.
Of course, for the same reason I object to the Hugman-Goldman "lineages" being incorporated -- which is what what at least one editor has been doing, and who I will be responding to privately.
would I like to see them here -- yes BUT I too agree that they are editorializing so should NOT be included in the records. The link I provided is a guide for those who want to see what the CBZ historians have identified as the Lineal Titleholders.
Of course, for the same reason I object to the Hugman-Goldman "lineages" being incorporated -- which is what what at least one editor has been doing, and who I will be responding to privately.
When the option of the lineal title is chosen we can add a small section explaining the lineal title is not a governing body but rather a title that passes from champion to champion.
When there is a vacancy, and that vacancy is filled by the two top contenders fighting (for example when Foster retired and Spinks became champion by beating Qawi) we can use the words "generally considered" or "widely considered" the lineal champion.
The readers will understand that it is not really an official title, but is non the less a part of boxing's history and present. Those that don't care to follow any of it do not have to look up the option in the search menu.
I understand that some titles from way back in teh 18 hundreds have lineages that are impossible to trace. But the lineal title really is not here today to trace those titles. It is here to clear up who is THE champion with all of these major belts around.
The lineal title really picks up where the these others belts come in. Like when Lewis gets stripped of all of his belts he will still be the champion. He actually stated he has the only belt that matters, the lineal belt, so he is not worried about being stripped by these organizations.
There is no need to go back before these other bogus title came into boxing as there was only one champion anyways. And every one knew that champion was THE champion.
It is a tool to take us back to only one champion. ANd you had to beat him in the ring to win his belt. No governing body so there is no sanctioning fees or no staff to give money to to get your fighter ranked higher.
I know what you mean that is is based on opinion. But lets face it, when Foster retired champ and Spinks and Qawi fought almost every expert asked would say they were the two best light heavyweights in the world. As the lineal title rules a vacancy is filled by the two top contenders as viewed by the public and media. Well there will alway be some disagreement but no body can argue the majority of the public and media viewed those two as the two best.
So even if some one disagreed they would have to respect the winner being the new champ as the majority selected these two men. It is how the lineal title works. I know that takes into account "opinions" of some people, but it is the "opinions" of the vast majority of boxing writers and experts.
If some one wanted to argue they thought Spinks and Qawi were not the two top contenders to fight for the vacant title then fine. We are offering the general consensus of the majority of media and public. If you like I could even backit up with listing from magazines and such from that time. So the reader can see several boxing experts listing the two fighters as the two top contenders.
We can explain all this, the rules of the lineal title as well as how it works by filling vacancies with the generally considered two top contenders etc. And then we can further put "widely considered" lineal champion before every fighter on top of that. As most could agree if that Spinks may not have been the only fighter claiming the lineal title at the time (though I can not think of another) but he was certainly the one generallly considered the lineal champ.
And even then this is all just an option on the search menu for visitors to check out. For interest sake. But if you still don't want to then fine.
I am not going to push it any further. Sorry if I seem pushy but I think it would be a good idea. If you have any quetions or further concerns than feel free to ask me. I will respect your opinion.
When there is a vacancy, and that vacancy is filled by the two top contenders fighting (for example when Foster retired and Spinks became champion by beating Qawi) we can use the words "generally considered" or "widely considered" the lineal champion.
The readers will understand that it is not really an official title, but is non the less a part of boxing's history and present. Those that don't care to follow any of it do not have to look up the option in the search menu.
I understand that some titles from way back in teh 18 hundreds have lineages that are impossible to trace. But the lineal title really is not here today to trace those titles. It is here to clear up who is THE champion with all of these major belts around.
The lineal title really picks up where the these others belts come in. Like when Lewis gets stripped of all of his belts he will still be the champion. He actually stated he has the only belt that matters, the lineal belt, so he is not worried about being stripped by these organizations.
There is no need to go back before these other bogus title came into boxing as there was only one champion anyways. And every one knew that champion was THE champion.
It is a tool to take us back to only one champion. ANd you had to beat him in the ring to win his belt. No governing body so there is no sanctioning fees or no staff to give money to to get your fighter ranked higher.
I know what you mean that is is based on opinion. But lets face it, when Foster retired champ and Spinks and Qawi fought almost every expert asked would say they were the two best light heavyweights in the world. As the lineal title rules a vacancy is filled by the two top contenders as viewed by the public and media. Well there will alway be some disagreement but no body can argue the majority of the public and media viewed those two as the two best.
So even if some one disagreed they would have to respect the winner being the new champ as the majority selected these two men. It is how the lineal title works. I know that takes into account "opinions" of some people, but it is the "opinions" of the vast majority of boxing writers and experts.
If some one wanted to argue they thought Spinks and Qawi were not the two top contenders to fight for the vacant title then fine. We are offering the general consensus of the majority of media and public. If you like I could even backit up with listing from magazines and such from that time. So the reader can see several boxing experts listing the two fighters as the two top contenders.
We can explain all this, the rules of the lineal title as well as how it works by filling vacancies with the generally considered two top contenders etc. And then we can further put "widely considered" lineal champion before every fighter on top of that. As most could agree if that Spinks may not have been the only fighter claiming the lineal title at the time (though I can not think of another) but he was certainly the one generallly considered the lineal champ.
And even then this is all just an option on the search menu for visitors to check out. For interest sake. But if you still don't want to then fine.
I am not going to push it any further. Sorry if I seem pushy but I think it would be a good idea. If you have any quetions or further concerns than feel free to ask me. I will respect your opinion.
Somebody has to make the decision on who is awarded the lineal title. In this case it would be us, or someone affiliated with us. We would have to make a decision based on rules set by us. This is not some emotional issue where we can just award guys, it has to be implied and standard.
I don't think we need to give away our credibility as an independent source of records just to promote champions. I think people have to make their own decisions in regards to who is really the champion, or go somewhere else.
I don't think we need to give away our credibility as an independent source of records just to promote champions. I think people have to make their own decisions in regards to who is really the champion, or go somewhere else.