SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[gilgamesh]

Well, Parker could well last the distance... He's got a great chin and absorbed a lot of big shots from Takam... Wilder has tremendous recuperative powers and savage punching power... But Ortiz let him off the hook. He had him... The old timer just couldn't crank it up anymore sufficiently to polish off his running, grabbing, and referee protected opponent...

Povetkin has never been stopped and survived 4 knockdowns versus Klitschko, which were the only times in his amateur and pro careers he was down... Andy Ruiz seems to have a head made out of rubber... Takam made it to the 10th... Wladimir the 11th... So yeah... Somebody will probably bust the bubble and last the distance with Joshua, or beat him.

But that's not absolutely written in stone... It's entirely possible Joshua could knock everybody out for the rest of his career - because everybody can be knocked out or at least stopped on cuts or whatever... But right now his KO ratio is 100% and nobody else has ever accomplished that heading into his 6th Heavyweight Championship Fight.

Most Heavyweights had to defend against Top 10 ranked contenders in every fight too. Eric Molina, Dominic Breazeale and guys like that would've never gotten title shots in the first place in better Heavyweight eras.

I don't doubt he'd stop Povetkin if they fought at this point. Povetkin is 5 years older now than he was for the Wlad fight.

Takam WOULD'VE and SHOULD'VE lasted the distance with Joshua. The referee just stopped the fight to preserve AJ's 100% KO ratio. Takam was not hurt in the slightest and was defending intelligently when the referee stopped the fight just to save AJ's KO record. Takam definitely had lost every round, and damn sure was no threat to win the fight, but they still felt the need to BS the fans and call it a KO win for Joshua.

And by the way...this is just me pointing out things as I've seen them. I'm not trying to insult Anthony Joshua. I'm a fan of Joshua, and actually do wish him great success, but I'd never pretend that any fighter is some flawless, unbeatable machine that can't be touched. There's never been a man like that, and never will be. Any man can be beaten.

[Kalan]

Most Heavyweights had to defend against Top 10 ranked contenders in every fight too. Eric Molina, Dominic Breazeale and guys like that would've never gotten title shots in the first place in better Heavyweight eras.

MOST Heavyweight Champions who held the title for years did NOT defend against Top-10 ranked contenders every fight... They often fought some of the shittiest competition imaginable or took years off.

Willard had 1 title defense in 4 years.... Dempsey took 3 years off... That's kind of nice if you can hold the title.

Joe Louis fought John Davies,3-3, and fought Light Heavyweight Al McCoy who lost 3 of his previous 4 fights to Light Heavyweights... McCoy said he wanted to quit Boxing... For his next fight he fought a guy making his pro debut and quit.

Floyd Patterson fought unranked Pete Rademacher, who was making his pro debut... Brian London was coming off a loss and was on a streak that saw him lose 6 of 9 fights... Tom McNeeley was 10 X worse than Eric Molina and beat nobody.

Ezzard Charles fought Gus Lesnevich, who lost 2 of his 3 previous fights for 2 different versions of the Light Heavyweight Title... Lesnevich said he wanted to quit and did after the Charles Fight.... Charles also fought a ridiculous challenger named Freddie Beshore.... Beshore lost 3 of his previous 4 fights to guys who were terrible, including a light heavyweight.

Muhammad Ali fought Alfredo Evangelista, who was 14-1-1 and coming of an 8 rounder loss to Lorenzo Zanon.... Ali fought 6-0-1 rook Leon Spinks when Larry Holmes was available to fight -- and fought guys like Chuck Wepner.

You know....I think some people forget that Boxing isn't a sport....It's a business... It isn't good business to get your ass beat when you're the champion... However, sometimes public pressure forces a Patterson to fight a Liston.

Now we have the Internet and social media -- and we do create more pressure on champions to fight... But there's still a massive amount of ducking and manipulation going one -- and big fights are put off for years... Maybe the public can invent ways to turn up the heat a little more... Websites like this help but it doesn't seem to be enough.

[Kalan]

Let's just say they would rip out the Tom McNeeley's... Alfredo Evangelista's... and Don Cockell's of the world...

They wouldn't get iced in 4 by feather punching Light Heavyweight Jimmy Slade or blown away Randy Turpin... Or lose to a 3rd rate sparring partner they hired for a previous fight like Tom McNeeley did.

[gilgamesh]

Since when would Breazeale, or Molina be top 10 ranked Heavies in most other era's? Possibly since Boxrec's Joshua,
and Chamberlain resident fanboy decided they are.

Molina's never even been Top 15 in his own era. Breazeale MIGHT be 10 or 9 depending on who you ask, but I personally have him around 11 or 12.

Molina's never even been on my Top 20 list as I can recall.

[Kalan]

Since when would Breazeale, or Molina be top 10 ranked Heavies in most other era's? Possibly since Boxrec's Joshua,
and Chamberlain resident fanboy decided they are.

Molina's never even been Top 15 in his own era. Breazeale MIGHT be 10 or 9 depending on who you ask, but I personally have him around 11 or 12.

Molina's never even been on my Top 20 list as I can recall.

What you're demonstrating is common generational bias -- along with ingrained American bias.

Many Heavyweight Champions of the past fought HORRIBLE challengers compared to Eric Molina... Molina lost his pro debut and ran off a streak of 18 wins before being beaten by 33-2 Chris Arreola... He ran off a few more wins and his next loss was to Heavyweight Champion Deontay Wilder, 33-0... He did very well in that fight before being stopped... Those were ALL of his losses until he earned his Title Fight with Anthony Joshua by knocking out Tomasz Adamek 50-4... He was indeed a ranked Heavyweight when he faced Anthony Joshua...

Perhaps you MISSED the following part of my post -- as I responded to YOUR assertion that past Heavyweight Champions had to always fight ranked Heavyweight Challengers.

Joe Louis fought John Davies,3-3, and fought Light Heavyweight Al McCoy who lost 3 of his previous 4 fights to Light Heavyweights... McCoy said he wanted to quit Boxing... For his next fight he fought a guy making his pro debut and quit.

Floyd Patterson fought unranked Pete Rademacher, who was making his pro debut... Brian London was coming off a loss and was on a streak that saw him lose 6 of 9 fights... Tom McNeeley was 10 X worse than Eric Molina and beat nobody.

Ezzard Charles fought Gus Lesnevich, who lost 2 of his 3 previous fights for 2 different versions of the Light Heavyweight Title... Lesnevich said he wanted to quit and did after the Charles Fight.... Charles also fought a ridiculous challenger named Freddie Beshore.... Beshore lost 3 of his previous 4 fights to guys who were terrible, including a light heavyweight.

Muhammad Ali fought Alfredo Evangelista, who was 14-1-1 and coming of an 8 rounder loss to Lorenzo Zanon.... Ali fought 6-0-1 rook Leon Spinks when Larry Holmes was available to fight -- and fought guys like Chuck Wepner.

You know....I think some people forget that Boxing isn't a sport....It's a business... It isn't good business to get your ass beat when you're the champion... However, sometimes public pressure forces a Patterson to fight a Liston

[gilgamesh]

I'm aware Champions fighting less than stellar challengers isn't new. I don't think there had been a guy that had had such a long sustained reign of meaningless title fights like Wilder has until recently though he did solidify himself as a force in the division, and a rightful claim to at the very least being the #2 man in the division with the win over Ortiz.

Joshua's definitely had a more meaningful reign already if you leave it at just Wlad and Takam I'd say.

AJ is a good fighter Kalan. I'm not trying to discredit the man. I just think it's ludicrous to be acting as if he's best Heavyweight of all time when he still has so much more to prove yet in his own time.

He'll definitely have more meaningful wins in his career. In fact...he's only two days away from picking up another title, and win over a Top 5 Heavyweight

But just hold up a little on calling him #1 all time, that's all. It causes people to resent him needlessly because people are overhyping him.

I try to never look at fighters in a historical scope until their careers are truly over, and everything that can be said about them and their careers has been said.

For now AJ is THE MAN in the Heavyweight division, and that's a 20 Million per fight gig so I don't think it hurts his feelings if people don't yet think he's #1 all time. He's making a lot of money on his way, and if he racks up 10 title defenses, 15 titles defenses or something like that, and still ain't lost...THEN he's in the conversation of being #1 all time.

He's still got a ways to go, and some tough hombres standing in his way though.

[Kalan]

I'm aware Champions fighting less than stellar challengers isn't new. I don't think there had been a guy that had had such a long sustained reign of meaningless title fights like Wilder has until recently though he did solidify himself as a force in the division, and a rightful claim to at the very least being the #2 man in the division with the win over Ortiz.

Joshua's definitely had a more meaningful reign already if you leave it at just Wlad and Takam I'd say.

AJ is a good fighter Kalan. I'm not trying to discredit the man. I just think it's ludicrous to be acting as if he's best Heavyweight of all time when he still has so much more to prove yet in his own time.

He'll definitely have more meaningful wins in his career. In fact...he's only two days away from picking up another title, and win over a Top 5 Heavyweight

But just hold up a little on calling him #1 all time, that's all. It causes people to resent him needlessly because people are overhyping him.

I try to never look at fighters in a historical scope until their careers are truly over, and everything that can be said about them and their careers has been said.

For now AJ is THE MAN in the Heavyweight division, and that's a 20 Million per fight gig so I don't think it hurts his feelings if people don't yet think he's #1 all time. He's making a lot of money on his way, and if he racks up 10 title defenses, 15 titles defenses or something like that, and still ain't lost...THEN he's in the conversation of being #1 all time.

He's still got a ways to go, and some tough hombres standing in his way though.

Wilder's opposition isn't nearly as bad as many past ATG Heavyweight Champions who fought raw rookies and raw swingers -- or tiny little bums like Don Cockell with tons of KO losses and no chins...

It's not right to pit eras like Louis, where 21 of his first 22 Challengers were white guys because the color line was still drawn..... and eras where nothing by Light Heavyweights fought as Heavyweight Challengers because the division was so weak.... with modern Heavyweight eras of the past 40 years where you've had increasingly greater international competition after American dominance for almost the entire 20th Century....

Joshua is a product of that greater worldwide competition -- and why you're seeing more Heavyweights from New Zealand, Ukraine, Russia, Europe and other regions than from America -- which has 4% of the world's population.

[BoxBuzz]

Kalan, speaking of Boxing being a business......right now Vitali is calling out Joshua.....

Now at this time it's not going to be much of a fight but it might be a good business decision.....since the K bros revenge act has a 100% success rate....it might generate some dough. Though I can't imagine Vitali having much luck.

However you've been known to tout Vitali as the best of the best of all time........but now your on the Joshua train and claiming he is that best of the best.

Which one do you pick at their mutual peaks?

[oogiebe]

...I think I just heard an explosion...

[Kalan]

Those were ALL of his losses until he earned his Title Fight with Anthony Joshua by knocking out Tomasz Adamek 50-4... He was indeed a ranked Heavyweight when he faced Anthony Joshua...

Just to clear things up. we are talking about the SAME Thomas Adamek who lost to Chad Dawson at 174, aren't we?

Lomachenko. I was just wondering how you fancy HIS chances against say Usyk, or perhaps Gassiev?

We're talking about 2-Division World Champion Tomasz Adamek who was 44-1 when he faced Vitali Klitschko and 50-4 when he faced Eric Molina... Archie Moore had losses at Welterweight... Did that disqualify him from fighting for the Heavyweight Championship??? NOPE!!!!! ...... Ezzard Charles had losses at Middleweight. Did that disqualify him from WINNING the Heavyweight Championship??? NOPE!!!!

And NOOOOO... Since Lomachenko had an extensive amateur career of 400 fights and started pro as a FEATHERWEIGHT he won't grow into a Cruiserweight since he's nearly 30 .... It would be a miracle if he ever made Welterweight, but in 5 years I think he'll try .... Fighters stretch themselves and try to do foolish things... At 216 pounds Adamek made a good small Heavyweight and beat Chris Arreola and Michael Grant... But he was cannon fodder for the best Heavyweights.

[Kalan]

Kalan ..... Right now Vitali is calling out Joshua ..... Which one do you pick at their mutual peaks?

Vitali had the stiffest legs in Heavyweight History... He damaged them greatly in Kickboxing and they forced him into retirement at one point.... But somehow he was able to rehab them somewhat in the 4 years he was out .... He felt better.

Joshua won the SuperStars Competition including the sprints... He's got quick, springy, powerful legs that Vitali never had...He's talking about MMA but I hope he doesn't go there -- because Boxing is where the money is at and in MMA you can damage your arms, legs, back, eyes etc. unless you have a very high degree of mastery - which he'll never have.

I would pick Joshua to outpoint Vitali over 12... It would be a UD and maybe not that close... Vitali would be an idiot to make a comeback at his age... But if he could make 20 or 30 million it might not be too idiotic...

Boxers miss the spotlight which is the only reason they pull stupid stunts like that.

[BoxBuzz]

Hell for 30 million, I'd be willing to walk up behind a fully enraged kicking mule and stand their for 12 rounds or until I was out cold.

[oogiebe]

Hell for 30 million, I'd be willing to walk up behind a fully enraged kicking mule and stand their for 12 rounds or until I was out cold.

...and for 10% I'd be willing to hold your bucket.

[Kalan]

Just to clear things up. we are talking about the SAME Thomas Adamek who lost to Chad Dawson at 174, aren't we?

Lomachenko. I was just wondering how you fancy HIS chances against say Usyk, or perhaps Gassiev?

We're talking about 2-Division World Champion Tomasz Adamek who was 44-1 when he faced Vitali Klitschko and 50-4 when he faced Eric Molina... Archie Moore had losses at Welterweight... Did that disqualify him from fighting for the Heavyweight Championship??? NOPE!!!!! ...... Ezzard Charles had losses at Middleweight. Did that disqualify him from WINNING the Heavyweight Championship??? NOPE!!!!

And NOOOOO... Since Lomachenko had an extensive amateur career of 400 fights and started pro as a FEATHERWEIGHT he won't grow into a Cruiserweight since he's nearly 30 .... It would be a miracle if he ever made Welterweight, but in 5 years I think he'll try .... Fighters stretch themselves and try to do foolish things... At 216 pounds Adamek made a good small Heavyweight and beat Chris Arreola and Michael Grant... But he was cannon fodder for the best Heavyweights.

Once again you are full of the proverbial brown stuff. You are trying to portray Adamek as something other than an average Heavyweight on the strength of him outpointing Arreola, and Grant. Pure unadulterated BOLLOX.

He has managed to stop 5 opponents at above 200lbs, compared to 25 below that weight. He is NOTHING more than ordinary in the division.

Wtf you think there is to brag about a guy getting stopped by bigger men ( Molina, and Klitschko ) is beyond me.

EVERYTHING is beyond you .... because your brain is MADE out of the proverbial brown stuff...

Both Gant and Arreola got World Heavyweight Title shots... Adamek beat both of them and earned a World Heavyweight Title Shot himself... There's over 1200 professional Heavyweight boxers -- so the "AVERAGE" Heavyweight boxer, who is ranked around 600, never gets anywhere CLOSE to getting a World Title Fight... He also never gets close to beating a Heavyweight Contender... Calling Adamek average is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[Kalan]

When your mother is in fact your sister, anything sensible would seem dumb.

Sorry to hear you're the victim of an incestuous relationship – and that’s why you’re the most mentally handicapped individual I’ve ever encountered.... It also explains why you routinely spew hatred and vile all over this website

Tomasz Adamek is a 2-Division World Campion whose career professional record is 52-5 in 57 fights... 33 of his last 34 opponents had winning records – including guys he defeated who were 21-1.. 20-0.. 28-1.. 36-2.. and 46-3 coming into their fights with Adamek.. Anyone smarter than a mongoloid idiot knows that’s not an average performance.

[Kalan]

Joe Walcott lost 18 fights which is over 25% of his fights.... So he was average you nitwit???

[Cojimar 1946]

Walcott wouldn't even be a heavyweight today

[Kalan]

Adamek had a great amateur background and Walcott did almost nothing...

Walcott lost to loser Johnny Allen 11-14-1 (average record) in his 40th fight... That bum would never touch Adamek on his best day... Hittable Walcott compiled many more losses throughout his career than the more skillful Adamek did.

Light Heavyweight Jack Fox knocked Joe Walcott out....Fox wouldn't find Adamek with a blood hound... Super slow punching bag Abe Simon knocked the smaller Walcott out with ease... Simon would never win a round off Adamek

Michael Grant was faster and more skillful than Abe Simon..... Grant proved it by FLATTENING Tye Fields (who Emanuel Steward thought had massive potential until Fields was proven as chinny as Walcott.)... Michael Grant also beat World Heavyweight Title Challengers Andrew Golota and Lou Saverese.... They were more skillful than pathetic Abe Simon.

Adamek outboxed Michael Grant to get a shot at Heavyweight Champion Vitali Klitschko.... Adamek was a player.

[MrGuy]

Liston had arguably the greatest jab in heavyweight history, and was pretty light on his feet despite this image of him being some plodder. He had an incredible reach (85") despite only being 6'0", and according to Chuck Wepner and other old timers I have interviewed he hit harder than George Foreman.

Look at his record:

Floyd Patterson (two 1st round kayos)
Cleveland Williams (KO3, KO2)
Zora Folley (KO3)
Eddie Machen (WUD)
Roy Harris (KO1)
Nino Valdes (KO3)
Mike DeJohn (KO6)

Forget the Ali fights... In fact, imagine a universe where Ali didn't exist... Liston very well could have reigned as champion into the late 60s when Frazier would have came along. Unfortunately, the Ali losses plagued his mental and emotional health, and went down a bad path which ultimately resulted in his death.

He'd of iced Wilder and Joshua and Klitschko. It'd of taken a tremendous mover, with lots of skill to defeat Liston possibly a Tyson Fury. Men who went toe to toe with Liston did not survive.

When did Fury get lots of skill?

[Kalan]

Liston had arguably the greatest jab in heavyweight history, and was pretty light on his feet despite this image of him being some plodder. He had an incredible reach (85") despite only being 6'0", and according to Chuck Wepner and other old timers I have interviewed he hit harder than George Foreman.

Look at his record:

Floyd Patterson (two 1st round kayos)
Cleveland Williams (KO3, KO2)
Zora Folley (KO3)
Eddie Machen (WUD)
Roy Harris (KO1)
Nino Valdes (KO3)
Mike DeJohn (KO6)

Forget the Ali fights... In fact, imagine a universe where Ali didn't exist... Liston very well could have reigned as champion into the late 60s when Frazier would have came along. Unfortunately, the Ali losses plagued his mental and emotional health, and went down a bad path which ultimately resulted in his death.

He'd of iced Wilder and Joshua and Klitschko. It'd of taken a tremendous mover, with lots of skill to defeat Liston possibly a Tyson Fury. Men who went toe to toe with Liston did not survive.

When did Fury get lots of skill?

Probably during his amateur career and when he was going 25-0 and winning the Lineal Heavyweight Championship.

But I believe if he tries to come back now he'll get bombed out like lazy assed Buster Douglas did... You can't fall off the rails and take years off of training getting as fat as Hell -- and expect to come back anything like you were in a few fights... The human body just doesn't adjust that fast when you dissipate the shitt out of it.

[HomicideHenry]

Liston had arguably the greatest jab in heavyweight history, and was pretty light on his feet despite this image of him being some plodder. He had an incredible reach (85") despite only being 6'0", and according to Chuck Wepner and other old timers I have interviewed he hit harder than George Foreman.

Look at his record:

Floyd Patterson (two 1st round kayos)
Cleveland Williams (KO3, KO2)
Zora Folley (KO3)
Eddie Machen (WUD)
Roy Harris (KO1)
Nino Valdes (KO3)
Mike DeJohn (KO6)

Forget the Ali fights... In fact, imagine a universe where Ali didn't exist... Liston very well could have reigned as champion into the late 60s when Frazier would have came along. Unfortunately, the Ali losses plagued his mental and emotional health, and went down a bad path which ultimately resulted in his death.

He'd of iced Wilder and Joshua and Klitschko. It'd of taken a tremendous mover, with lots of skill to defeat Liston possibly a Tyson Fury. Men who went toe to toe with Liston did not survive.

When did Fury get lots of skill?

Whether you agree or disagree, a 6'9" switch hitter with a high volume jab with herky jerky body movements who has good speed is problematic for anyone regardless of era. When he leans away from punches, he's at least eight feet away. He's virtually impossible to hit cleanly, unless he himself makes a mistake.

[MrGuy]

Liston had arguably the greatest jab in heavyweight history, and was pretty light on his feet despite this image of him being some plodder. He had an incredible reach (85") despite only being 6'0", and according to Chuck Wepner and other old timers I have interviewed he hit harder than George Foreman.

Look at his record:

Floyd Patterson (two 1st round kayos)
Cleveland Williams (KO3, KO2)
Zora Folley (KO3)
Eddie Machen (WUD)
Roy Harris (KO1)
Nino Valdes (KO3)
Mike DeJohn (KO6)

Forget the Ali fights... In fact, imagine a universe where Ali didn't exist... Liston very well could have reigned as champion into the late 60s when Frazier would have came along. Unfortunately, the Ali losses plagued his mental and emotional health, and went down a bad path which ultimately resulted in his death.

He'd of iced Wilder and Joshua and Klitschko. It'd of taken a tremendous mover, with lots of skill to defeat Liston possibly a Tyson Fury. Men who went toe to toe with Liston did not survive.

When did Fury get lots of skill?

Probably during his amateur career and when he was going 25-0 and winning the Lineal Heavyweight Championship.

But I believe if he tries to come back now he'll get bombed out like lazy assed Buster Douglas did... You can't fall off the rails and take years off of training getting as fat as Hell -- and expect to come back anything like you were in a few fights... The human body just doesn't adjust that fast when you dissipate the shitt out of it.

Fury has looked dreadful as a pro. His big feat was beating an already overrated and washed up Wlad.. He beat the master of jab and grab, with jab and grab.

[MrGuy]

Liston had arguably the greatest jab in heavyweight history, and was pretty light on his feet despite this image of him being some plodder. He had an incredible reach (85") despite only being 6'0", and according to Chuck Wepner and other old timers I have interviewed he hit harder than George Foreman.

Look at his record:

Floyd Patterson (two 1st round kayos)
Cleveland Williams (KO3, KO2)
Zora Folley (KO3)
Eddie Machen (WUD)
Roy Harris (KO1)
Nino Valdes (KO3)
Mike DeJohn (KO6)

Forget the Ali fights... In fact, imagine a universe where Ali didn't exist... Liston very well could have reigned as champion into the late 60s when Frazier would have came along. Unfortunately, the Ali losses plagued his mental and emotional health, and went down a bad path which ultimately resulted in his death.

He'd of iced Wilder and Joshua and Klitschko. It'd of taken a tremendous mover, with lots of skill to defeat Liston possibly a Tyson Fury. Men who went toe to toe with Liston did not survive.

When did Fury get lots of skill?

Whether you agree or disagree, a 6'9" switch hitter with a high volume jab with herky jerky body movements who has good speed is problematic for anyone regardless of era. When he leans away from punches, he's at least eight feet away. He's virtually impossible to hit cleanly, unless he himself makes a mistake.

His decent jab and size dont equate to skill.

[HomicideHenry]

When did Fury get lots of skill?

Whether you agree or disagree, a 6'9" switch hitter with a high volume jab with herky jerky body movements who has good speed is problematic for anyone regardless of era. When he leans away from punches, he's at least eight feet away. He's virtually impossible to hit cleanly, unless he himself makes a mistake.

His decent jab and size dont equate to skill.

Lmao, I bet $1,000 if Fury beats Joshua or Wilder that the first thing everyone will say is that they were shitcan bums that fooled everybody, once again robbing Fury of any credit just like with the Klitschko fight.

[MrGuy]

Whether you agree or disagree, a 6'9" switch hitter with a high volume jab with herky jerky body movements who has good speed is problematic for anyone regardless of era. When he leans away from punches, he's at least eight feet away. He's virtually impossible to hit cleanly, unless he himself makes a mistake.

His decent jab and size dont equate to skill.

Lmao, I bet $1,000 if Fury beats Joshua or Wilder that the first thing everyone will say is that they were shitcan bums that fooled everybody, once again robbing Fury of any credit just like with the Klitschko fight.

The only way he beats either one is if he can clinch all night. Wlad was a chinny washed up overrated fighter himself.