Am I Getting Old Or....

[Tony1244]

is it possible today's best Heavyweights aren't that good?

The 1970s, its been said, was one of the best HW eras but I distinctly remember old guys then claiming they weren't as good as Marciano, Louis or Dempsey.

After watching Wilder and Joshua's recent performances, I find myself wondering could either of these belt holders have beaten a prime, and I emphasize prime, Mike Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, or either Klitschko? I'm not sure either Wilder or Joshua could.

Wilder and Joshua don't seem to throw in combinations like the best HWs of yesteryear. So let's forget about patriotism and partisanship. Am I right here? Are they not as good?

[Mexi-Box]

There is no *maybe* or *possibly*. The HWs have been absolutely atrocious. It's just a really bad time for HW boxing in terms of skill.

On the otherhand, CW right is now absolute fire. Usyk, Briedis, and Gassiev can move up can clean out the HW division.

[DrDuke]

I tend to agree. Today's champs are raw. They have been promoted too good. They would have been contenders, if they were in the era with the champion of prime Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis or Klitschko level.

[RScarf1]

How about Chris Byrd or Michael Dokes in their primes? I don't know if Joshua or Wilder could beat them.

[jamamb]

hws of the past seemed overall more fluid to me then more recent generatons...though often much smaller. seems lately more of a focus on just pure force and power. being huge and strong.

[oogiebe]

Having been through many generations of fighters, let me share some times.

1960's - My Dad and uncle said that this generation couldn't have beaten Marciano; Louis; Dempsey, etc.
1970's - Word was this was the worst HW division in decades. Ali couldn't have beaten the old timers, and has NO CONTENDERS!!!
1980's - Frazier; Ali; Norton; Foreman would've beaten these guys. Holmes is no Ali and is average at best.
1990's - Worst era in HW division. Tyson ended that for a short time.
2000 - Worst era ever! (Maybe...although the HW title roundtable of the 80's was pretty bad outside Holmes)

And so, on and on it goes, where it stops...never. Any argument or comps that can't be proven never go away. No matter how much wind goes by, we remember things more favorably than before. Human nature. Truth is, they get bigger/stronger/faster ON AVERAGE so that the comps are virtually impossible. Sorry if that is boring.

[Tony1244]

Having been through many generations of fighters, let me share some times.

1960's - My Dad and uncle said that this generation couldn't have beaten Marciano; Louis; Dempsey, etc.
1970's - Word was this was the worst HW division in decades. Ali couldn't have beaten the old timers, and has NO CONTENDERS!!!
1980's - Frazier; Ali; Norton; Foreman would've beaten these guys. Holmes is no Ali and is average at best.
1990's - Worst era in HW division. Tyson ended that for a short time.
2000 - Worst era ever! (Maybe...although the HW title roundtable of the 80's was pretty bad outside Holmes)

And so, on and on it goes, where it stops...never. Any argument or comps that can't be proven never go away. No matter how much wind goes by, we remember things more favorably than before. Human nature. Truth is, they get bigger/stronger/faster ON AVERAGE so that the comps are virtually impossible. Sorry if that is boring.

You hit the nail on the head. Great post.

My OP was asking myself and anyone else interested, if I'm falling into the same trap or are Joshua and Wilder really not as good? Perhaps some of both.

Sometimes I think of analogies outside of boxing. My parents generation generally hated Rock and but most of them couldn't name 5 Rock songs. I'll find myself saying Dylan, Beatles, Hendrix etc were great and Justin Bieber sucks. While I'm probably correct, I'm a hypocrite too because I can't name 1 of his songs.

Another non boxing example is I read something like: "The children of today have no work ethic." Said in 1960? 1970? No, it was said in something like 320 BC.

Now, that was probably boring.

Generally speaking, athletes do get better but I'm not sure AJ or Wilder could have handled a Bowe, Holyfield or Lewis. Maybe I'm just remembering highlights but they seemed to let their hands go more.

[Tony1244]

How about Chris Byrd or Michael Dokes in their primes? I don't know if Joshua or Wilder could beat them.

I'm not sure either.

[oogiebe]

Having been through many generations of fighters, let me share some times.

1960's - My Dad and uncle said that this generation couldn't have beaten Marciano; Louis; Dempsey, etc.
1970's - Word was this was the worst HW division in decades. Ali couldn't have beaten the old timers, and has NO CONTENDERS!!!
1980's - Frazier; Ali; Norton; Foreman would've beaten these guys. Holmes is no Ali and is average at best.
1990's - Worst era in HW division. Tyson ended that for a short time.
2000 - Worst era ever! (Maybe...although the HW title roundtable of the 80's was pretty bad outside Holmes)

And so, on and on it goes, where it stops...never. Any argument or comps that can't be proven never go away. No matter how much wind goes by, we remember things more favorably than before. Human nature. Truth is, they get bigger/stronger/faster ON AVERAGE so that the comps are virtually impossible. Sorry if that is boring.

You hit the nail on the head. Great post.

My OP was asking myself and anyone else interested, if I'm falling into the same trap or are Joshua and Wilder really not as good? Perhaps some of both.

Sometimes I think of analogies outside of boxing. My parents generation generally hated Rock and but most of them couldn't name 5 Rock songs. I'll find myself saying Dylan, Beatles, Hendrix etc were great and Justin Bieber sucks. While I'm probably correct, I'm a hypocrite too because I can't name 1 of his songs.

Another non boxing example is I read something like: "The children of today have no work ethic." Said in 1960? 1970? No, it was said in something like 320 BC.

Now, that was probably boring.

Generally speaking, athletes do get better but I'm not sure AJ or Wilder could have handled a Bowe, Holyfield or Lewis. Maybe I'm just remembering highlights but they seemed to let their hands go more.

History tends to get 'lighter' as tomorrow's get 'darker' I agree with everything you said...also how many end of worlds? "Mayans' "nostradamous (sp?)" "Cars going over 25mph will kill humans over time." ...the moon...

[asdfjkl]

You're getting old.

[oogiebe]

You're getting old.

Getting?! LMAO!

[asdfjkl]

You're getting old.

Getting?! LMAO!

It's his question, here's the answer

[oogiebe]

You're getting old.

Getting?! LMAO!

It's his question, here's the answer

...already...not getting...lol! It was the question!

[Enlightened-One]

is it possible today's best Heavyweights aren't that good?

The 1970s, its been said, was one of the best HW eras but I distinctly remember old guys then claiming they weren't as good as Marciano, Louis or Dempsey.

After watching Wilder and Joshua's recent performances, I find myself wondering could either of these belt holders have beaten a prime, and I emphasize prime, Mike Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, or either Klitschko? I'm not sure either Wilder or Joshua could.

Wilder and Joshua don't seem to throw in combinations like the best HWs of yesteryear. So let's forget about patriotism and partisanship. Am I right here? Are they not as good?

I feel that size is the main issue here...

The vast majority of men that competed at elite level as a heavyweight during the 1970's were the physical equivalent of modern day cruiserweights.

This is a statistical fact that I can easily justify, since I actually analysed and quantified the data prior coming to this conclusion.

I also feel that the current crop of cruiserweights are really underrated. The division is filled with talent.

Heavyweight fighters are so huge, in terms of height and weight, that it's a tad unrealistic to expect them to be physically capable of executing the sweet science on a par to what we often witness when viewing fights in the lower divisions.

[ValMar]

I will try to be unprejudiced, so, this is my "judgement".
I can not remember pre-Ali era, and I don't want to discuss about.
Ali, Foreman, and Frazier - golden days of HW boxing.
Holmes - pretty weak competition, of course it is not LH's fault.
Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis - something like Ali's days.
Klitschko brothers - a little bit better than Holmes' era (After Lewis, before Fury and Joshua).
Joshua, Wilder - Better than Klitschko's era, weaker than Ali/Lewis, definitely......

[fightseer]

Anthony Joshua is 6-6", 250 pounds with a 82" wingspan. Rocky Marciano was 5-10", 190 and a 67" wingspan. No offense to the memory of Rocky Marciano but if they were to fight I would put my money on Anthony Joshua. I would suggest that every generation tends to over romanticize their generations fighters. I would agree that last nights fight was a borefest with neither fighter willing to commit to any sustained offense. However the referee seemed determined to not let them fight.

[oogiebe]

Anthony Joshua is 6-6", 250 pounds with a 82" wingspan. Rocky Marciano was 5-10", 190 and a 67" wingspan. No offense to the memory of Rocky Marciano but if they were to fight I would put my money on Anthony Joshua. I would suggest that every generation tends to over romanticize their generations fighters. I would agree that last nights fight was a borefest with neither fighter willing to commit to any sustained offense. However the referee seemed determined to not let them fight.

I came to realize that generally speaking, you cannot compare athletes of different eras. I accepted it for boxing when I saw Lennox Lewis.

[Syntax Error]

I think part of the problem is because there are so many belts, fighters get to the top too quickly & don't learn their craft fully.

Joshua is a case in point: You have to remember that he is still actually a work in progress, yet he has more belts than a men's clothes store & add in the fact that he a PPV cash cow, he is only going to fight twice a year whilst he has those trinkets.

It maybe that Joshua never truly realises his potential because he will never have enough fights.

[DrDuke]

I will try to be unprejudiced, so, this is my "judgement".
I can not remember pre-Ali era, and I don't want to discuss about.
Ali, Foreman, and Frazier - golden days of HW boxing.
Holmes - pretty weak competition, of course it is not LH's fault.
Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis - something like Ali's days.
Klitschko brothers - a little bit better than Holmes' era (After Lewis, before Fury and Joshua).
Joshua, Wilder - Better than Klitschko's era, weaker than Ali/Lewis, definitely......

Pretty good evaluation. Can be arguable about what era better - Larry's and Klitschko's or today's. Klitschkos' fights have been one sided, but Wlad was showing real class. Today's champions have flaws, but the whole situation is interesting with a lot of competition and good possible match-ups. However, today's era doesn't end exactly today, so it can become even better, maybe much better. Overall it's fun to watch anyway.

[jamesmcdonnell]

is it possible today's best Heavyweights aren't that good?

The 1970s, its been said, was one of the best HW eras but I distinctly remember old guys then claiming they weren't as good as Marciano, Louis or Dempsey.

After watching Wilder and Joshua's recent performances, I find myself wondering could either of these belt holders have beaten a prime, and I emphasize prime, Mike Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, or either Klitschko? I'm not sure either Wilder or Joshua could.

Wilder and Joshua don't seem to throw in combinations like the best HWs of yesteryear. So let's forget about patriotism and partisanship. Am I right here? Are they not as good?

I feel that size is the main issue here...

The vast majority of men that competed at elite level as a heavyweight during the 1970's were the physical equivalent of modern day cruiserweights.

This is a statistical fact that I can easily justify, since I actually analysed and quantified the data prior coming to this conclusion.

I also feel that the current crop of cruiserweights are really underrated. The division is filled with talent.

Heavyweight fighters are so huge, in terms of height and weight, that it's a tad unrealistic to expect them to be physically capable of executing the sweet science on a par to what we often witness when viewing fights in the lower divisions.

I agree with this, I think the modern super heavies are always going to lack something in terms of workrate and mobility, as you simple can't be so when you're 6 foot 6 plus and over 240 pounds.

[Butterbean]

Dont know if your getting old, but last nights fight did NOT impress me. Parker managed better than i expected, but stilll.
Joshua look damn fit and physical able, yet, like you, i compare to memories of the past. Imo Joshua would be instant flattended by Tyson, lewis, ali, foreman etc.
Maybe its his size that does it, but joshua looks slow, not that good stamina, and just about average boxingskill wise.
But we will never know i guess. Last nights fight makes me think that even wilder will knock joshua the fornicate out if they meet.

[oogiebe]

Dont know if your getting old, but last nights fight did NOT impress me. Parker managed better than i expected, but stilll.
Joshua look damn fit and physical able, yet, like you, i compare to memories of the past. Imo Joshua would be instant flattended by Tyson, lewis, ali, foreman etc.
Maybe its his size that does it, but joshua looks slow, not that good stamina, and just about average boxingskill wise.
But we will never know i guess. Last nights fight makes me think that even wilder will knock joshua the eff out if they meet.

It wasn't his best performance but he still won.

[ValMar]

Jesse Owens or Usain Bolt ?
Joe Louis or Anthony Joshua ?
Pele or Messi ?

Of course, we will never know...............

[oogiebe]

Jesse Owens or Usain Bolt ?
Joe Louis or Anthony Joshua ?
Pele or Messi ?

Of course, we will never know...............

Yup! And we can go on and on and on and... Thanks!!!

[SenorPipino]

I've been whining for years that overall, this era's heavyweights are pretty much nothing but flotsam and jetsam.

If the best contenders out there are the caliber of Takam, Breazeale, Miller, Pulev or Whyte, then heavyweight boxing has truly slipped to the dregs.

You don't have to go back to the 70s to find a generation of talented heavyweight contenders. The 90s certainly boasted a pretty good crop.

Certainly better and more exciting than the current crew.