Question regarding the Patterson-Liston fights....

jedijojo · Post by **jedijojo** » 21 Apr 2006, 12:52

What were the experts opinion on that one? What were the odds? Was their first fight viewed as a fluke? Were the people in that time expected a beatdown? Twice?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 21 Apr 2006, 12:56

Had Patterson not done as well as he had in his returns with Ingemar and getting up off the deck with Rademacher there probably wouldn't have been a reason for the second go round. But people liked Floyd and were always ready to suspend reality to give him another shot. I'm only kidding, he had surprised people before so the market was there for the second fight.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 21 Apr 2006, 20:30

patterson was NOT knocked down by radamacher, it was a slip. i watched it in extra slow mo, it was a slip no punch landed.

theone · Post by **theone** » 21 Apr 2006, 22:03

patterson was NOT knocked down by radamacher, it was a slip. i watched it in extra slow mo, it was a slip no punch landed.

I agree. When i first saw the "knockdown" it was on a compilation tape with alot of different clips. It was decribed as a legitamate knockdown on the tape but I remember thinking it sure looked like a slip to me.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 21 Apr 2006, 23:05

details details...the public perception was that he was knocked down....and I agree it was a slip.....but OFFICIALY........

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 22 Apr 2006, 11:57

Decagon wrote:He tripped against a guy making his pro debut and got up. What's the big deal? Patterson got a rematch because that fight was worth more money than any other fight.

I thought it was because there was a rematch clause in the contract? At least that is what I have been lead to believe.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 22 Apr 2006, 12:17

Kojo I think your right and back then a contract meant something.

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 24 Apr 2006, 13:02

I can't remember the betting odds at the time but most people reckoned Liston would win by KO the first time, and very few people who knew the game gave Patterson any chance in the return. The return took place because there was a re-match clause (I'm pretty sure this was the case) AND because Floyd felt so bad after his poor performance in the first fight he wanted the chance to prove he could do better.

Going into the first fight it was reckoned that Patterson had two chances...(not the famous slim and none, but maybe that would have been an appropriate line had DK been around)....one was (based on the way the Liston/Machen fight had unfolded) to outspeed/outbox Liston, stay away from him for 15 rnds and win on points (but that didn't allow for the fact that Liston wasn't a slow, crude slugger) and the other was for him to land one of his "leaping" left hooks (the so called "gazelle punch") on Liston early...but of course that failed to take into account that Liston could probably have absorbed anything Floyd threw at him.

Lots of people WANTED Patterson to win (the naive good guy versus bad guy argument), but anyone who knew a bit about boxing saw it going no more than a few rounds till Liston caught up with him and blasted him out.

I wanted Liston to win because I thought he had been denied his shot far too long and was a far better fighter than Patterson. I thought he'd win in about 3-4 rounds so was mildly surprised when he won in Rnd 1.

J

bill.lockhart · Post by **bill.lockhart** » 25 Apr 2006, 08:29

I think the odds were about 7-5 Liston for the first fight . Liston conveniently hurt his knee so as to postpone the 2nd fight because of lagging ticket sales. Floyd never had the style or the whiskers to beat Liston. He was a good boxer, Ali said the best he ever faced, but much more agressive than Eddie Machen, who extended Sonny in Sept. 1960.
Liston was going to beat anyone he could hit. I don't thnk a Marciano or Frazier would have beaten Sonny either. His powerful left jab would have set them up for some awful punishment, as it did Floyd. Both could take it better & would have taken plenty.

lamphey · Post by **lamphey** » 25 Apr 2006, 17:10

Nat Fleischer and Ray Arcel both picked Patterson to beat Liston first time around.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 25 Apr 2006, 23:11

.but of course that failed to take into account that Liston could probably have absorbed anything Floyd threw at him.

i dont know about that. patterson could really hit and listons chin was not granite

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 26 Apr 2006, 04:17

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
.but of course that failed to take into account that Liston could probably have absorbed anything Floyd threw at him.

i dont know about that. patterson could really hit and listons chin was not granite

What?

In his prime Listons chin was rock hard. Similar to Tyson in that respect.

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 26 Apr 2006, 06:58

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
.but of course that failed to take into account that Liston could probably have absorbed anything Floyd threw at him.

i dont know about that. patterson could really hit and listons chin was not granite

Cleveland Williams landed flush on Liston and failed to deck him. I don't see Floyd's punching in the same league. In his prime Liston was rarely in trouble in any of his fights, and most of these were against the division's top rated men at the time.

J

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 26 Apr 2006, 07:08

lamphey wrote:Nat Fleischer and Ray Arcel both picked Patterson to beat Liston first time around.

I have the Ring Magazines from the time "stored somewhere" and when I'm on my next tidy up I'll search thru them and see what the pundits were saying. I thnk I recollct that Fleischer was quite supportive of Liston getting a shot but hoped that Patterson (good guy) would win. Of course Fleischer turned completely against Liston after the second Ali fight and in my view behaved very pooerly towards him after that.

Like I said earlier, a lot of people read too much into Liston's failure to stop Eddie Machen. And as Ingo had stopped Machen, and in turn lost two out of three to Patterson a certain amount of "Is Liston really thatgood...?" talk crept in.

I guess boxing is like horse racing.... everyone has an opinion, and if trainers were always right in their forecasts there would be no bookmakers left!

In my opinion Liston at his peak would have been a match for any of the all time greats.

J

bill.lockhart · Post by **bill.lockhart** » 26 Apr 2006, 11:55

john2345 wrote:
lamphey wrote:Nat Fleischer and Ray Arcel both picked Patterson to beat Liston first time around.
I have the Ring Magazines from the time "stored somewhere" and when I'm on my next tidy up I'll search thru them and see what the pundits were saying. I thnk I recollct that Fleischer was quite supportive of Liston getting a shot but hoped that Patterson (good guy) would win. Of course Fleischer turned completely against Liston after the second Ali fight and in my view behaved very pooerly towards him after that.

Like I said earlier, a lot of people read too much into Liston's failure to stop Eddie Machen. And as Ingo had stopped Machen, and in turn lost two out of three to Patterson a certain amount of "Is Liston really thatgood...?" talk crept in.

I guess boxing is like horse racing.... everyone has an opinion, and if trainers were always right in their forecasts there would be no bookmakers left!

In my opinion Liston at his peak would have been a match for any of the all time greats.

J

I agree
If Sonny could hit you , he could beat you.
How would he have fared vs. Louis?
I think Sonny would have the edge early. Could he get the knockout?
I think he could. The longer it went, the better for Louis who I would favour over a longer haul.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 26 Apr 2006, 19:14

marty marshall knocked liston down, bert whitehurst staggered him. listons chin wasnt granite, especially if u believe an ali feather fisted punch knocked him down

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 26 Apr 2006, 19:25

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:marty marshall knocked liston down, bert whitehurst staggered him. listons chin wasnt granite, especially if u believe an ali feather fisted punch knocked him down

And while he may have beat the top contenders of the day, it was not a particularly stellar lot. I seem to be one of the few around here who thinks Sonny is over rated. A very good fighter, but not an ATG.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:02

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:marty marshall knocked liston down, bert whitehurst staggered him. listons chin wasnt granite, especially if u believe an ali feather fisted punch knocked him down

Marty Marshall clipped Sonny when he was off-balance. Nothing I've ever read indicated that Sonny was even remotely hurt.

Bert Whitehurst did nothing of the sort. I've never seen anyone buckle a prime Liston's knees.

Cleveland Williams and Mike DeJohn were both big punchers. Sonny took everything they had.

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 27 Apr 2006, 02:31

The Great John L wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:marty marshall knocked liston down, bert whitehurst staggered him. listons chin wasnt granite, especially if u believe an ali feather fisted punch knocked him down
And while he may have beat the top contenders of the day, it was not a particularly stellar lot. I seem to be one of the few around here who thinks Sonny is over rated. A very good fighter, but not an ATG.

Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdes, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Mike de John, Wayne Bethea.....and so on. Who was left to fight in the Top 10 while he waited...and waited...for his title shot?

Ali's "greatest performance" is often referred to as his victory over a way-past-it Cleveland Williams (post being shot by a cop).... Liston twice stopped a peak Williams but gets no credit. He's just remembered as the guy who lost to Ali, not as the great fighter he was in his prime.

J

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 27 Apr 2006, 10:16

Bert Whitehurst did nothing of the sort. I've never seen anyone buckle a prime Liston's knees

right hand 1st round of rematch, check it out listons knees buckled

listons chin defintley was very good, but not granite

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 27 Apr 2006, 10:23

Leotis Martin pretty much disproved the granite chin theory. OR does a chin wither in time? Cuz that's the excuse I think I'm going to hear.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 27 Apr 2006, 10:36

BoxBuzz wrote:Leotis Martin pretty much disproved the granite chin theory. OR does a chin wither in time?

Hate to be the one who has to break the news to you...but YES IT DOES.

You think a peak Ray Leonard would've been knocked down by Hector Camacho for example??

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 27 Apr 2006, 10:59

john2345 wrote:
The Great John L wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:marty marshall knocked liston down, bert whitehurst staggered him. listons chin wasnt granite, especially if u believe an ali feather fisted punch knocked him down
And while he may have beat the top contenders of the day, it was not a particularly stellar lot. I seem to be one of the few around here who thinks Sonny is over rated. A very good fighter, but not an ATG.
Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdes, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Mike de John, Wayne Bethea.....and so on. Who was left to fight in the Top 10 while he waited...and waited...for his title shot?

My point exactly. They may have been the best of the lot, but it’s not a very distinguished list. As I said, Liston was a very good fighter, but many on this forum are putting him in the top 10 HWs of all time, and I just don’t see it. And yes, I have seen many of his pre-Patterson fights, and yes he looked quite good, but his dreadful foot speed and average (at best) hand speed tell me that he would struggle with just about any quick boxer with a decent chin. Patterson was very fast, but was anything but a slick mover, and was pretty east to hit. And Liston’s punches moved like a glacier in the Patterson fights. Jimmy Young would have made him look like an amateur.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 27 Apr 2006, 11:03

MightyWarrior wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Leotis Martin pretty much disproved the granite chin theory. OR does a chin wither in time?
Hate to be the one who has to break the news to you...but YES IT DOES.

You think a peak Ray Leonard would've been knocked down by Hector Camacho for example??

I agree that a fighters ability to take a punch can degrade with age. And of course, reflexes also go with age so the punches tend to land more squarely.

My guess is that Comacho wouldn’t have been around long enough against a prime SRL for Comacho to even land a solid punch.

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 27 Apr 2006, 11:56

The Great John L wrote:
john2345 wrote:
The Great John L wrote: And while he may have beat the top contenders of the day, it was not a particularly stellar lot. I seem to be one of the few around here who thinks Sonny is over rated. A very good fighter, but not an ATG.
Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdes, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Mike de John, Wayne Bethea.....and so on. Who was left to fight in the Top 10 while he waited...and waited...for his title shot?
My point exactly. They may have been the best of the lot, but it’s not a very distinguished list. As I said, Liston was a very good fighter, but many on this forum are putting him in the top 10 HWs of all time, and I just don’t see it. And yes, I have seen many of his pre-Patterson fights, and yes he looked quite good, but his dreadful foot speed and average (at best) hand speed tell me that he would struggle with just about any quick boxer with a decent chin. Patterson was very fast, but was anything but a slick mover, and was pretty east to hit. And Liston’s punches moved like a glacier in the Patterson fights. Jimmy Young would have made him look like an amateur.

I think we should agree to disagree and leave it there! I must have been watching a different Liston....

J

Question regarding the Patterson-Liston fights....

Question regarding the Patterson-Liston fights....

Floyd- Liston

Patterson vs. Liston