SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[BoxBuzz]

When did Fury get lots of skill?

Probably during his amateur career and when he was going 25-0 and winning the Lineal Heavyweight Championship.

But I believe if he tries to come back now he'll get bombed out like lazy assed Buster Douglas did... You can't fall off the rails and take years off of training getting as fat as Hell -- and expect to come back anything like you were in a few fights... The human body just doesn't adjust that fast when you dissipate the shitt out of it.

Fury has looked dreadful as a pro. His big feat was beating an already overrated and washed up Wlad.. He beat the master of jab and grab, with jab and grab.

In the man's defense:
Fury was able to come back strong after almost punching himself out with a great shot to his own chin. Something no other champion has been able to duplicate.

[Kalan]

When did Fury get lots of skill?

Probably during his amateur career and when he was going 25-0 and winning the Lineal Heavyweight Championship.

But I believe if he tries to come back now he'll get bombed out like lazy assed Buster Douglas did... You can't fall off the rails and take years off of training getting as fat as Hell -- and expect to come back anything like you were in a few fights... The human body just doesn't adjust that fast when you dissipate the shitt out of it.

Fury has looked dreadful as a pro. His big feat was beating an already overrated and washed up Wlad.. He beat the master of jab and grab, with jab and grab.

No he didn't jab and grab... Maybe you didn't watch the fight... Fury could fight inside.. Fury tried to punch on the inside and Wladimir tried vainly to grab the bigger, taller man... All Fury had to do was stand straight up when that happened and he spun Wladimir around... Then Tony Weeks jumped between them to protect the turned around Wladimir...

Once Weeks didn't jump in and Fury hit Wladimir from behind.. Weeks took a point while Fury groused "You bitch." Another time Weeks didn't jump in... Fury waited patiently for Wlad to turn around and nailed him with a big left hook... The only round Wladimir fought half hard was the 12th, after Banks told him.. "You've lost the fight.. You can only win by KO." A desperate Wladimir headbutted Fury right in the face... Fury didn't react.. He knew the fight was his.

Wladimir was determined not to retire on the rotten taste of that fight... He wanted 1 last fight... He fought harder against Joshua than he ever did in any other fight for his whole career... And there was very little grabbing.

Fury was a good boxer, but he sure as Hell couldn't punch his size.. He stopped Chisora with an accumulation.

[MrGuy]

Probably during his amateur career and when he was going 25-0 and winning the Lineal Heavyweight Championship.

But I believe if he tries to come back now he'll get bombed out like lazy assed Buster Douglas did... You can't fall off the rails and take years off of training getting as fat as Hell -- and expect to come back anything like you were in a few fights... The human body just doesn't adjust that fast when you dissipate the shitt out of it.

Fury has looked dreadful as a pro. His big feat was beating an already overrated and washed up Wlad.. He beat the master of jab and grab, with jab and grab.

No he didn't jab and grab... Maybe you didn't watch the fight... Fury could fight inside.. Fury tried to punch on the inside and Wladimir tried vainly to grab the bigger, taller man... All Fury had to do was stand straight up when that happened and he spun Wladimir around... Then Tony Weeks jumped between them to protect the turned around Wladimir...

Once Weeks didn't jump in and Fury hit Wladimir from behind.. Weeks took a point while Fury groused "You bitch." Another time Weeks didn't jump in... Fury waited patiently for Wlad to turn around and nailed him with a big left hook... The only round Wladimir fought half hard was the 12th, after Banks told him.. "You've lost the fight.. You can only win by KO." A desperate Wladimir headbutted Fury right in the face... Fury didn't react.. He knew the fight was his.

Wladimir was determined not to retire on the rotten taste of that fight... He wanted 1 last fight... He fought harder against Joshua than he ever did in any other fight for his whole career... And there was very little grabbing.

Fury was a good boxer, but he sure as Hell couldn't punch his size.. He stopped Chisora with an accumulation.

Then who initiated the 90 plus clinches in that fight?

[Kalan]

Wlad.... Habitual grabbing is a pattern that's hard to break... Though he did break it in the Joshua fight... but I think Joshua was just too strong for that fight and he couldn't hold him... and that was one of the most dramatic fights ever.

[Cojimar 1946]

People seem to be using really selective logic in critiquing Joshua. Joshua's competition seems easily on par or better than the guys Lewis was fighting.

Also, how is getting dropped by a 41 year old Wladimir worse than Lewis being stopped by Rahman and McCall. Neither of these guys were considered big hitters and even an older, faded Wladimir quite possibly hit harder. At the same stage in his career that Wladimir fought Joshua Lewis looked pretty bad against Frank Bruno in a fight that was even before Lewis won by stoppage.

[Kalan]

People seem to be using really selective logic in critiquing Joshua. Joshua's competition seems easily on par or better than the guys Lewis was fighting.

Also, how is getting dropped by a 41 year old Wladimir worse than Lewis being stopped by Rahman and McCall. Neither of these guys were considered big hitters and even an older, faded Wladimir quite possibly hit harder. At the same stage in his career that Wladimir fought Joshua Lewis looked pretty bad against Frank Bruno in a fight that was even before Lewis won by stoppage.

Right!!! ... And Lewis palmed Bruno in the face numerous times... When the referee called time and gave Lewis a blistering warning Lewis didn't look at him... He looked over at Bruno as the referee screamed.. Then he nodded a tiny little condescending nod at the ref like "Yeah..Sure” and went right back to palming Bruno in the face as he finished him.

[Ambling Alp II]

People seem to be using really selective logic in critiquing Joshua. Joshua's competition seems easily on par or better than the guys Lewis was fighting.

Also, how is getting dropped by a 41 year old Wladimir worse than Lewis being stopped by Rahman and McCall. Neither of these guys were considered big hitters and even an older, faded Wladimir quite possibly hit harder. At the same stage in his career that Wladimir fought Joshua Lewis looked pretty bad against Frank Bruno in a fight that was even before Lewis won by stoppage.

Joshua competition seems easily on par with the guys that Lewis was fighting? Mercer, Tua,Holyfield etc. were light years better than anyone Joshua has ever beat.
Was alcohol involved in that post?

Lewis was less hurt by McCall than Joshua was by Klitschko. The difference was the referee stepped in and stopped it.

Joshua has a win over a senior citizen with a glass jaw and nobody else worth mentioning. Going to go out on a limb and say Lewis and Sonny Liston would beat have him.

[Kalan]

Joshua competition seems easily on par with the guys that Lewis was fighting? Mercer, Tua, Holyfield etc. were light years better than anyone Joshua has ever beat.
Was alcohol involved in that post?

“Was alcohol involved in that post? hic” Alp said as he took another swing of Ripple...

We know Alp is biased towards Americans, smaller Heavyweights, and generations past.... So let's examine this latest asininity and look for facts.... What do we know?

We know most of Alp’s favored Americans were too chickenshitt to fight the K Bros.... They're too big and strong.

We know Ruiz knocked Holyfield down and beat him.. We know Tua KO'd Ruiz in 17 seconds FLAT!!! We know a prime Chris Byrd beat a prime David Tua with ease We know a pre-prime Wladimir Klitschko beat a prime Chris Byrd with ease Klitschko did that on sheer size, strength, speed, and intimidation.. Wlad had MANY flaws pre Emanuel Steward.. The above series of fights points to the physical supremacy of Klitschko... He was far from a master at that point.

We know a pre-prime Wladimir Klitschko (long before he got with Emanuel Steward who Wladimir said “made me 300% better”) was light years better than Chris Byrd or Ray Mercer... Given their lack of height and size they could barely land a power punch on Wladimir... They couldn’t find the gaping hole in Wladimir’s defense that Steward closed tight. They were too scared of Wladimir’s size and punching power to throw punches or explore his defense.

We also know that ATG Roy Jones Jr said Wladimir fought the best fight of his career against Joshua – but he still got knocked down 3 X and knocked out in the 11th round... Wladimir knew he left it all out there and refused the rematch which was a guaranteed 30 million because of the greatness of the first fight... Joshua had 18 fights coming in.

Joseph Parker has a chin of iron and has never been down in his life.. He was undefeated, 6’4” X 236, fast, skillful, smart, conditioned, durable, and an undefeated Heavyweight Champion... NONE of Lewis’s opponents who could match all those qualities... Of course Parker isn’t an American so he can’t be good right???

[Cojimar 1946]

The Holyfield that Lewis fought barely scraped by John Ruiz in his next fight via highly controversial decision and was soundly beaten in the following fight. I would say Parker is better than Ruiz and that version of Holyfield. The Wladimir Joshua faced is also probably better than that version of Holyfield.

Mercer lost to guys like Jesse Ferguson and Marion Wilson in his prime. How is barely scraping by Mercer a impressive win for Lewis?

[oogiebe]

[Kalan]

Those are all questions posters like Alp consider immaterial.... So they will make immature replies like oogie...

Or they will attack you personally rather than be honest with themselves... Alcohol involvement... right!!!

[Cojimar 1946]

Tyson and Holyfield were both faded by the time Lewis got to him, Tyson especially so. If you object to Wladimir being a good win on account of age and decline than the same holds true for Lewis's wins against these guys.

[oogiebe]

Tyson and Holyfield were both faded by the time Lewis got to him, Tyson especially so. If you object to Wladimir being a good win on account of age and decline than the same holds true for Lewis's wins against these guys.

Absolutely. I'm tired of folks 'spinning' the data to fit their narrative. All these comparisons are an exercise in futility. It can be fun, if you have the right people in the debate. Repetitive and attacking responses make it way too frustrating.

[Kalan]

Sonny Liston, the subject of speculation here lost 4 fights ... to guys whose average weight was under 200 pounds.

[Kalan]

Tyson and Holyfield were both faded by the time Lewis got to him, Tyson especially so. If you object to Wladimir being a good win on account of age and decline than the same holds true for Lewis's wins against these guys.

Absolutely. I'm tired of folks 'spinning' the data to fit their narrative. All these comparisons are an exercise in futility. It can be fun, if you have the right people in the debate. Repetitive and attacking responses make it way too frustrating.

Right... When people come up with statements like "My guy's opponents were "light years better" than your guy's opponents and don't offer a shred of proof or logic, it's kind of hard to have an actual debate or get to the truth.

[oogiebe]

Tyson and Holyfield were both faded by the time Lewis got to him, Tyson especially so. If you object to Wladimir being a good win on account of age and decline than the same holds true for Lewis's wins against these guys.

Absolutely. I'm tired of folks 'spinning' the data to fit their narrative. All these comparisons are an exercise in futility. It can be fun, if you have the right people in the debate. Repetitive and attacking responses make it way too frustrating.

Right... When people come up with statements like "My guy's opponents were "light years better" than your guy's opponents and don't offer a shred of proof or logic, it's kind of hard to have an actual debate or get to the truth.

No Kalan, I was referring to you. If you don't want to engage, stop engaging, or you'll get more of what you deserve. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

[Kalan]

Absolutely. I'm tired of folks 'spinning' the data to fit their narrative. All these comparisons are an exercise in futility. It can be fun, if you have the right people in the debate. Repetitive and attacking responses make it way too frustrating.

Right... When people come up with statements like "My guy's opponents were "light years better" than your guy's opponents and don't offer a shred of proof or logic, it's kind of hard to have an actual debate or get to the truth.

No Kalan, I was referring to you. If you don't want to engage, stop engaging, or you'll get more of what you deserve. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

Why don't you dry up or blow away.... You're NOT engaging in a debate when you troll, stalk and go .... You generally have nothing to say except engaging in personal attacks or pigging backing on a hater.... so

[oogiebe]

Right... When people come up with statements like "My guy's opponents were "light years better" than your guy's opponents and don't offer a shred of proof or logic, it's kind of hard to have an actual debate or get to the truth.

No Kalan, I was referring to you. If you don't want to engage, stop engaging, or you'll get more of what you deserve. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

Why don't you dry up or blow away.... You're NOT engaging in a debate when you troll, stalk and go .... You generally have nothing to say except engaging in personal attacks or pigging backing on a hater.... so

That was better than your boxing posts. I don't engage in debating YOU. I get entertainment from you. If you say something bright, I give you credit, if I disagree, I'll say so, if you use baby insults and absolutes, I'll shred you. If you were nicer, I'd leave you alone. You are a bully and a pussy bully at that.

[Ambling Alp II]

The Holyfield that Lewis fought barely scraped by John Ruiz in his next fight via highly controversial decision and was soundly beaten in the following fight. I would say Parker is better than Ruiz and that version of Holyfield. The Wladimir Joshua faced is also probably better than that version of Holyfield.

Mercer lost to guys like Jesse Ferguson and Marion Wilson in his prime. How is barely scraping by Mercer a impressive win for Lewis?

Because we can look at their entire careers. Mercer fought a lot of other people too. Have you ever seen the Lewis-Mercer fight, the Lewis-Tua fight? How about Lewis-Ruddock?

Are you like Kalan and just look at misleading win/loss records and the needle on the scale ? (When convenient of course.)

[oogiebe]

The Holyfield that Lewis fought barely scraped by John Ruiz in his next fight via highly controversial decision and was soundly beaten in the following fight. I would say Parker is better than Ruiz and that version of Holyfield. The Wladimir Joshua faced is also probably better than that version of Holyfield.

Mercer lost to guys like Jesse Ferguson and Marion Wilson in his prime. How is barely scraping by Mercer a impressive win for Lewis?

Because we can look at their entire careers. Mercer fought a lot of other people too. Have you ever seen the Lewis-Mercer fight, the Lewis-Tua fight? How about Lewis-Ruddock?

Are you like Kalan and just look at misleading win/loss records and the needle on the scale ? (When convenient of course.)

Well MR. Ambling Alp...I have to agree 100%. With that logic, one could say that Ali who fought Holmes would lose to a prime Herbie Hyde. (maybe). Anyway, I agree with your points.

[Ambling Alp II]

Tyson and Holyfield were both faded by the time Lewis got to him, Tyson especially so. If you object to Wladimir being a good win on account of age and decline than the same holds true for Lewis's wins against these guys.

Absolutely. I'm tired of folks 'spinning' the data to fit their narrative. All these comparisons are an exercise in futility. It can be fun, if you have the right people in the debate. Repetitive and attacking responses make it way too frustrating.

I never mentioned Tyson. With Klitschko it's not just about age, although that is part of it. Part of it that he had a glass jaw and horribly overrated by the usual suspects.

[oogiebe]

Tyson and Holyfield were both faded by the time Lewis got to him, Tyson especially so. If you object to Wladimir being a good win on account of age and decline than the same holds true for Lewis's wins against these guys.

Absolutely. I'm tired of folks 'spinning' the data to fit their narrative. All these comparisons are an exercise in futility. It can be fun, if you have the right people in the debate. Repetitive and attacking responses make it way too frustrating.

I never mentioned Tyson. With Klitschko it's not just about age, although that is part of it. Part of it that he had a glass jaw and horribly overrated by the usual suspects.

DId I mention Tyson? I concur with your thoughts.

[Kalan]

The Holyfield that Lewis fought barely scraped by John Ruiz in his next fight via highly controversial decision and was soundly beaten in the following fight. I would say Parker is better than Ruiz and that version of Holyfield. The Wladimir Joshua faced is also probably better than that version of Holyfield.

Mercer lost to guys like Jesse Ferguson and Marion Wilson in his prime. How is barely scraping by Mercer a impressive win for Lewis?

Because we can look at their entire careers. Mercer fought a lot of other people too. Have you ever seen the Lewis-Mercer fight, the Lewis-Tua fight? How about Lewis-Ruddock?

Are you like Kalan and just look at misleading win/loss records and the needle on the scale ? (When convenient of course.)

Well MR. Ambling Alp...I have to agree 100%. With that logic, one could say that Ali who fought Holmes would lose to a prime Herbie Hyde. (maybe). Anyway, I agree with your points.

we DO look at ALL of Lewis's fights... Including his 1-punch KO losses... His struggles with Mercer who pre-Steward Wladimir wiped out super easily.....and 42-year-old Larry Holmes outboxed Mercer handily... "I ain't no Tommy Morrison."

Lewis completely dominated Tyson and Holyfield because they were LITTLE TINY guys... A Cruiserweight and a guy who weighed only 218 at his best... Lewis boxed the shitt out of them... And Big Buster Douglas also trashed Tyson...

Lewis was losing to Vitali on ALL SCORECARDS... fouled the shitt out of him with a corrupt referee and refused to do the mandated rematch (after promising everybody he would do it) and was forced into retirement... Here's just a sample of how that cheating MFer Lewis fouled Vitalihttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

Lewis fouled Vitali with a thumb strike... a head grab,,, Illegal head work on the cut... and a palm rake.... 4 distinct fouls. Watch and learn... You never throw a legit straight right by flipping down your forearm and twisting your wrist counter clockwise... You are NOT allowed to grab your opponent's head... You are NOT allowed to rub your head and hair into cuts.

[oogiebe]

Because we can look at their entire careers. Mercer fought a lot of other people too. Have you ever seen the Lewis-Mercer fight, the Lewis-Tua fight? How about Lewis-Ruddock?

Are you like Kalan and just look at misleading win/loss records and the needle on the scale ? (When convenient of course.)

Well MR. Ambling Alp...I have to agree 100%. With that logic, one could say that Ali who fought Holmes would lose to a prime Herbie Hyde. (maybe). Anyway, I agree with your points.

we DO look at ALL of Lewis's fights... Including his 1-punch KO losses... His struggles with Mercer who pre-Steward Wladimir wiped out super easily.....and 42-year-old Larry Holmes outboxed Mercer handily... "I ain't no Tommy Morrison."

Lewis completely dominated Tyson and Holyfield because they were LITTLE TINY guys... A Cruiserweight and a guy who weighed only 218 at his best... Lewis boxed the shitt out of them... And Big Buster Douglas also trashed Tyson...

Lewis was losing to Vitali on ALL SCORECARDS... fouled the shitt out of him with a corrupt referee and refused to do the mandated rematch (after promising everybody he would do it) and was forced into retirement... Here's just a sample of how that cheating MFer Lewis fouled Vitalihttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

Lewis fouled Vitali with a thumb strike... a head grab,,, Illegal head work on the cut... and a palm rake.... 4 distinct fouls.

You have to take the comps by prime years. Your examples, though essentially accurate, are not prime year comps.

[Kalan]

You have to take the comps by prime years. Your examples, though essentially accurate, are not prime year comps.

Was Holmes prime when he boxed the ass off Mercer???? .... Was Lewis prime when he struggled with Mercer??? Was Lewis prime when he was FLATTENED by massive underdog Oliver McCall??? Was Lewis a 20 to 1 favorite when he was knocked out by Hasim Rahman??? Was Tyson prime when Buster Douglas beat the living shitt out of him???

Was Joshua experienced when he knocked out Wladimir Klitschko??? .... Joshua is 21-0 with 20 KO wins... He won 6 World Title fights and beat 3 guys who are at least as good as the guys who flattened a prime Lewis if not twice as good as them.