David vs Goliath Matches

[Kalan]

Gogea Mitu was possibly the tallest during that era being between 7'2"-7'4", and had a number of exhibition bouts and pro contests; most famously against 6'3" powerhouse George Godfrey whom Tunney ducked.

The tallest men that I know of who ever applied for a boxing license was the following individuals: Ted Evans (7'8.5"), Eddie Carmel (7'9"), and Albert Kramer (7'9.5") though the latter could have been 8'0" at his peak height.

If I'm not mistaken, also, the famous Irish giant Charles Byrne (7'7") was supposed to fight but became too ill. That of course was in the bareknuckle era. It'd of been interesting how that'd of went down considering the average man in those times was 5'8" and rarely did you see a man close to 6'5".

The largest all around boxer that I've ever heard of was Carl "The Eclipse" Chancellor. BoxRec has him listed as 6'11.5" but I tend to believe the reports that he was in excess of 7'0". He was well over 450 pounds. Probably best known for his fight with Leroy Jones who was 270 pounds himself.

The tallest man who ever boxed as an amateur, and nearly turned professional was Vaino Myllyrinne of Iceland who is one of the few people on Earth known to have been 8'0" or taller legitimately. Vaino boxed while in the army and was 7'9" at that time, though he'd end up being 8'3". There are many pictures of him with his boxing trainer.

The problem with most guys over 7 feet all is, they lack great balance, speed, agility, and coordination... Only 1 of every 73 basketball players over 7 feet tall makes it to the NBA... And most 7-footers who do make the NBA are shot blockers and rebounders... They almost never develop all-around skills like Wilt and Kareem...

But a guy over 7 feet tall with tremendous all-around athleticism, will enjoy the same advantages a Middleweight has over a Featherweight... It's just extremely rare to find anyone like that... Probably in any given decade, they're not there.

[HomicideHenry]

Gogea Mitu was possibly the tallest during that era being between 7'2"-7'4", and had a number of exhibition bouts and pro contests; most famously against 6'3" powerhouse George Godfrey whom Tunney ducked.

The tallest men that I know of who ever applied for a boxing license was the following individuals: Ted Evans (7'8.5"), Eddie Carmel (7'9"), and Albert Kramer (7'9.5") though the latter could have been 8'0" at his peak height.

If I'm not mistaken, also, the famous Irish giant Charles Byrne (7'7") was supposed to fight but became too ill. That of course was in the bareknuckle era. It'd of been interesting how that'd of went down considering the average man in those times was 5'8" and rarely did you see a man close to 6'5".

The largest all around boxer that I've ever heard of was Carl "The Eclipse" Chancellor. BoxRec has him listed as 6'11.5" but I tend to believe the reports that he was in excess of 7'0". He was well over 450 pounds. Probably best known for his fight with Leroy Jones who was 270 pounds himself.

The tallest man who ever boxed as an amateur, and nearly turned professional was Vaino Myllyrinne of Iceland who is one of the few people on Earth known to have been 8'0" or taller legitimately. Vaino boxed while in the army and was 7'9" at that time, though he'd end up being 8'3". There are many pictures of him with his boxing trainer.

The problem with most guys over 7 feet all is, they lack great balance, speed, agility, and coordination... Only 1 of every 73 basketball players over 7 feet tall makes it to the NBA... And most 7-footers who do make the NBA are shot blockers and rebounders... They almost never develop all-around skills like Wilt and Kareem...

But a guy over 7 feet tall with tremendous all-around athleticism, will enjoy the same advantages a Middleweight has over a Featherweight... It's just extremely rare to find anyone like that... Probably in any given decade, they're not there.

Well, look at this... Kalan and I actually agree on something... Thank Jesus!

As for your point on basketball, you're absolutely correct. I've seen many giants in the sport like Shawn
Bradley (7'6") and Gheorge Muresan (7'7") but they were nowhere the athlete's that Chamberlain, Kareem, and Shaq were. Yao Ming was easily the best basketball player over 7'5" (he was 7'6") though one could argue Michael Ri (7'9") is the greatest giant to never play in the NBA.

At present time, the best 7-footer in the NBA is probably Kristaps Porzingis. He's 7'3" and is one of the best overall players in the entire NBA.

As for the boxing world, I'd be more interested in having a tall small guy (ie, let's do 6'1" & 140 pounds, like Tommy Hearns) than a truly immense guy fighting at heavyweight like Taishan Dong (7'0") who moves like a skyscraper.

It makes me think of someone like Sandy Saddler who nearly 5'9" was rather large for the featherweight division (at the time anyways). Willie Pep had a hard time dealing with that "giant" primarily because of the size/reach and power factors, not to mention Saddler was as dirty as they came. Pep himself was barely 5'5".

[Kalan]

In every division except Heavyweight, you're restricted by size (weight).... Therefore height and reach are giving you diminishing strength the taller you are.... Pretty soon you're so damned skinny you can't get bust guys your weight.

Bob Foster bombed out Dick Tiger... but got bombed by Joe Frazier... If Bob had a bigger frame per inch like Foreman???

Then Frazier is the man who bites the dust...

[HomicideHenry]

Physics is quite a bitch to work against. Hearns and Foster and Arguello were so damn explosive and powerful, because they could generate a leverage nobody else could at their weight. However, the heavier (or older) they became, the more ordinary they appeared.

It's something I always drilled into my nephew's that bigger guys, especially the real reachy/leggy types, are tremendous hitters at a distance because all of their power is at arms length; but if you could cut the distance, get inside, they're virtually non-existent in strength.

Dempsey vs Willard is a prime example of that. A man capable of throwing around 500 pound bales of cotton, who could break necks, rendered completely helpless because physics were taken away by simply getting inside of his reach.

[BitPlayer]

Another is the 1884 fight for the Heavyweight Championship of South Africa. The Champion, known as The Ladies' Pet, was the supposodely 240Ib Joe Coverwell, and fighting him was the 144Ib James Robertson Couper. Suppodely when Couper entered the ring Coverwell said "Why didn't they bring me a man to fight me, not a boy?", but when Couper stripped an"Oh!"ran through the crowd, and Couper proceeded to beat him in a minute and a half, with Coverwell being blinded and in hospital for several weeks, while Couper was left untouched.

This is from boxrec and a much later newspaper, which often aren't very reliable. But I think this story should be told in some form even if only the legend of it.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti ... rchLimits=

[Kalan]

"Bigger guys, especially the real reachy/leggy types, are tremendous hitters at a distance because all of their power is at arms length; but if you could cut the distance, get inside, they're virtually non-existent in strength.

Dempsey vs Willard is a prime example of that. A man capable of throwing around 500 pound bales of cotton, who could break necks, rendered completely helpless because physics were taken away by simply getting inside of his reach.

Willard hadn't fought in over 4 years except for the exhibition with Moran where he weighed 265...the fattest of his career... He certainly wasn't throwing any bales looking like that...

Dempsey v Willard proved nothing... Willard was inactive, fat, soft, weak, old, and super slow... He hated Boxing and couldn't box a lick... Willard also confirmed he had no outside power punch.. "I had the jab and the short right uppercut inside and that's all I ever had. I never changed." He was probably the most inept Heavyweight Champion of all time...

The only thing size gave Willard was the ability to absorb endless punishment and get his face smashed in.. Dempsey said "I threw as hard as I could... Punching Willard was like throwing pine cones at the side of a barn."

Big guys DON'T have non-existent strength inside.. Every hear of uppercuts, hooks and 45's??? Powerful tall guys like George Foreman slaughter short little guys like Joe Frazier with them if they try to come in... If the little guy is butting his head into your chest you just shove him back about 10 feet - or spin off counter clockwise and smash him with a right hook to the ear.... using his shoving and forward momentum against him... Willard wasn't mobile enough for that.

[hhaehre]

Ewart Potgieter, of all the giant men in boxing history, arguably was the best overall fighting to a draw with heavyweight contender James J. Parker who was also a pretty sizable man for the era.

Based on how he looked against Simon Templar, Potgeiter was absolute shit. A very slow lumbering man with no punch to speak of and limited boxing skills.

[HomicideHenry]

"Bigger guys, especially the real reachy/leggy types, are tremendous hitters at a distance because all of their power is at arms length; but if you could cut the distance, get inside, they're virtually non-existent in strength.

Dempsey vs Willard is a prime example of that. A man capable of throwing around 500 pound bales of cotton, who could break necks, rendered completely helpless because physics were taken away by simply getting inside of his reach.

Willard hadn't fought in over 4 years except for the exhibition with Moran where he weighed 265...the fattest of his career... He certainly wasn't throwing any bales looking like that...

Dempsey v Willard proved nothing... Willard was inactive, fat, soft, weak, old, and super slow... He hated Boxing and couldn't box a lick... Willard also confirmed he had no outside power punch.. "I had the jab and the short right uppercut inside and that's all I ever had. I never changed." He was probably the most inept Heavyweight Champion of all time...

The only thing size gave Willard was the ability to absorb endless punishment and get his face smashed in.. Dempsey said "I threw as hard as I could... Punching Willard was like throwing pine cones at the side of a barn."

Big guys DON'T have non-existent strength inside.. Every hear of uppercuts, hooks and 45's??? Powerful tall guys like George Foreman slaughter short little guys like Joe Frazier with them if they try to come in... If the little guy is butting his head into your chest you just shove him back about 10 feet - or spin off counter clockwise and smash him with a right hook to the ear.... using his shoving and forward momentum against him... Willard wasn't mobile enough for that.

If you can get close, power is diminished greatly. Now if you can get the uppercuts in, then yes you are generating power directly from the floor. However, Dempsey knew how to get inside, tying a man up, rendering them incapable of doing much of anything. If you are chest to chest, the big man is essentially at your mercy, because all you have to do is change your angle and can get a left or right hook in, etc.

As for Willard being completely inept... If he was, then he's even more remarkable considering that he defeated so many men on the way up who weren't inept including Jack Johnson.

[Kalan]

You know damned well Willard really didn't beat Jack Johnson... That's the most well known tank job in History...

A couple fights before he fought Johnson, Willard he lost to a 24-21-8 Light Heavyweight... Willard was horrible.

No capable big man is going to let a little 187-pounder come in and put his head on his chest... He'll toss him 10 feet back like Foreman did to Frazier or he'll cut to his right in a tight circle and smash him in the ear.

When Frazier tried to move in Foreman punched his head off... That's what normally happens if the big guy punches his weight and size... Willard had one exhibition in the previous 4 years and was 37... He was fat as a pig and slow as a tortoise.

[gilgamesh]

I don't believe Jack Johnson took a dive against Jess Willard, I believe he was just an aging fighter that wasn't what he once was. From all accounts of the fight he was landing with enough authority early in the fight to suggest that he wasn't doing Willard any favors that night. He had bloodied Willard's face, and given him a hard time.

If you're gonna lose a fight intentionally I doubt you're gonna wait until the 26th round to do it.

Johnson was nearing his 20th year as a Professional fighter by the time the Willard fight rolled around, and along with all of his official fights there's no telling how many exhibitions, wrestling matches, battle royals and all sorts of other weird ass physically demanding things he had been subjected to over the years.

I think Willard's victory over him was legitimate, Johnson simply wasn't the fighter he had once been by that time.

[oogiebe]

I don't believe Jack Johnson took a dive against Jess Willard, I believe he was just an aging fighter that wasn't what he once was. From all accounts of the fight he was landing with enough authority early in the fight to suggest that he wasn't doing Willard any favors that night. He had bloodied Willard's face, and given him a hard time.

If you're gonna lose a fight intentionally I doubt you're gonna wait until the 26th round to do it.

My Uncle interviewed Willard in the 60's I think. Willard said he was robbed twice in his career regarding his accomplishments.
1 - He beat Johnson straight up no matter what anyone said
2 - He claimed Dempsey had plaster of paris on his hands.

I'm not saying I believe it, but I heard it from my Uncle who was deeply involved back then.

[gilgamesh]

I believe 1, I don't believe 2. Dempsey just beat the sh*t out of him, and landed with ridiculous regularity. If he'd had plaster of paris in his hands there's no way Willard would've been able to come out for the 2nd round because the beating he gave him in that 1st round is one of the most horrendous you'll ever see.

[Kalan]

I don't believe Jack Johnson took a dive against Jess Willard, I believe he was just an aging fighter that wasn't what he once was. From all accounts of the fight he was landing with enough authority early in the fight to suggest that he wasn't doing Willard any favors that night. He had bloodied Willard's face, and given him a hard time.

If you're gonna lose a fight intentionally I doubt you're gonna wait until the 26th round to do it.

Johnson was nearing his 20th year as a Professional fighter by the time the Willard fight rolled around, and along with all of his official fights there's no telling how many exhibitions, wrestling matches, battle royals and all sorts of other weird ass physically demanding things he had been subjected to over the years.

I think Willard's victory over him was legitimate, Johnson simply wasn't the fighter he had once been by that time.

Look... We've been around and around on the many, many facts that lead to proof positive of outright fakery..

The fact that Willard lost to a Light Heavyweight with a horrendous record a couple fights earlier.... The fact that NOBODY saw the KO punch and ALL the reporters doubted there was a KO punch and wrote exactly that... There exists no still that shows the so called KO punch connecting... Nobody heard it or saw it... But they DID see Johnson outpunching Willard 10-1 for the first 20 rounds and said Willard was deeply distressed.

Then the fact that newspapers reported that Johnson sent word to his wife at the end of the 25th to leave the arena because he was ending the fight in the next round... The fact that Johnson grabbed Willard in an unbreakable clinch just before the KO, turned him in a circle and looked directly at his wife's box seat to see if she was gone, just before the ending -- something that newspapers also reported....

The fact that Johnson stepped back and invited the KO punch, and looked it all the way in... The fact that Johnson fell gently to the canvas with no head bounce on the canvas and shaded his eyes from the sun with his forearm during the count... The newspaper reports of APerno had all those facts for anyone to see.

[Kalan]

Further proof??? .... Movies prove that neither fighter wore hand wraps....and newspapers reported that it was the "tamest" Heavyweight Fight ever... Usually a World Championship fight is serious business and hard punches are thrown... Willard also insisted after the fight that the KO punch was in inside right uppercut... He knew the straight right didn't land.

[gilgamesh]

It's 1915. Video isn't exactly HD.

[Kalan]

Doesn't have to be... Everybody could plainly see Willard's white hands going into his gloves minus wraps.... Everybody could plainly see Johnson's black hands going into his gloves minus wraps...

[BitPlayer]

I don't believe Jack Johnson took a dive against Jess Willard, I believe he was just an aging fighter that wasn't what he once was. From all accounts of the fight he was landing with enough authority early in the fight to suggest that he wasn't doing Willard any favors that night. He had bloodied Willard's face, and given him a hard time.

If you're gonna lose a fight intentionally I doubt you're gonna wait until the 26th round to do it.

Johnson was nearing his 20th year as a Professional fighter by the time the Willard fight rolled around, and along with all of his official fights there's no telling how many exhibitions, wrestling matches, battle royals and all sorts of other weird ass physically demanding things he had been subjected to over the years.

I think Willard's victory over him was legitimate, Johnson simply wasn't the fighter he had once been by that time.

No one in their right mind is going to wait until the 26th round to throw a fight. How the hell could he have known Willard would even last that long? He was just old. not in the best shape, and exhausted by a long fight in the heat.

[oogiebe]

I don't believe Jack Johnson took a dive against Jess Willard, I believe he was just an aging fighter that wasn't what he once was. From all accounts of the fight he was landing with enough authority early in the fight to suggest that he wasn't doing Willard any favors that night. He had bloodied Willard's face, and given him a hard time.

If you're gonna lose a fight intentionally I doubt you're gonna wait until the 26th round to do it.

Johnson was nearing his 20th year as a Professional fighter by the time the Willard fight rolled around, and along with all of his official fights there's no telling how many exhibitions, wrestling matches, battle royals and all sorts of other weird ass physically demanding things he had been subjected to over the years.

I think Willard's victory over him was legitimate, Johnson simply wasn't the fighter he had once been by that time.

No one in their right mind is going to wait until the 26th round to throw a fight. How the hell could he have known Willard would even last that long? He was just old. not in the best shape, and exhausted by a long fight in the heat.

Jesus! Why the eff didn't I think that way. That's the best answer all time for this question. DUH!

[Kalan]

The fight was scheduled for 45 rounds... so they were barely half through... because their had to be a transfer of many documents to Johnson's wife that wouldn't start until the fight was started.. They included Johnson retaining full citizenship in the US and a shortened prison stay for his convoluted criminal conviction under the Mann Act.

Johnson was guaranteed an athletic directorship in prison, and he could have professional fights while in prison etc... This was all part of the deal for Johnson to give up the Heavyweight Championship.. Johnson't wife and lawyer went over the documents while the fight was on.. They knew they had 45 rounds... When his wife gave him the signal he sent word to her (confirmed by the newspaper reports) leave the arena because he was ending the fight in the next round.

The temperature wasn't hot as is reported by lying ass Willard... APerno came up with the weather report for that day.. It was a moderate spring day... People were wearing ties and jackets... APerno auneathed a newspaper report of the balmy weather... It was easy to go the rounds because the newspaper reports said it was the most tepid Heavyweight prize fight ever... In fact Newspapers reported that the fans screamed "DO SOMETHING" and "FAKE" during the fight.

If you real Johnson's autobiography you will find the material in newspaper reports agrees with his version of events on that day... Johnson was easily winning the fight according to the newspaper reports.. looked at his wife's box in the 26th round to make sure she left the arena and took the dive.. In fact people were certain Johnson would get up after he went down because nobody heard or saw the fake KO punch land... The newspapers reported that there wasn't a KO punch.

[BitPlayer]

The fight was scheduled for 45 rounds... so they were barely half through... because their had to be a transfer of many documents to Johnson's wife that wouldn't start until the fight was started.. They included Johnson retaining full citizenship in the US and a shortened prison stay for his convoluted criminal conviction under the Mann Act.

Johnson was guaranteed an athletic directorship in prison, and he could have professional fights while in prison etc... This was all part of the deal for Johnson to give up the Heavyweight Championship.. Johnson't wife and lawyer went over the documents while the fight was on.. They knew they had 45 rounds... When his wife gave him the signal he sent word to her (confirmed by the newspaper reports) leave the arena because he was ending the fight in the next round.

The temperature wasn't hot as is reported by lying ass Willard... APerno came up with the weather report for that day.. It was a moderate spring day... People were wearing ties and jackets... APerno auneathed a newspaper report of the balmy weather... It was easy to go the rounds because the newspaper reports said it was the most tepid Heavyweight prize fight ever... In fact Newspapers reported that the fans screamed "DO SOMETHING" and "FAKE" during the fight.

If you real Johnson's autobiography you will find the material in newspaper reports agrees with his version of events on that day... Johnson was easily winning the fight according to the newspaper reports.. looked at his wife's box in the 26th round to make sure she left the arena and took the dive.. In fact people were certain Johnson would get up after he went down because nobody heard or saw the fake KO punch land... The newspapers reported that there wasn't a KO punch.

They didn't schedule 45 rounders expecting them to last anything like that long (a couple Battling Nelson ones got close), I don't know of any 45 rounders that went the distance (there's probably some), but they weren't really ment to. a 45 rounder was basically meant as a finish fight.

I didn't claim it was as hot as Willard said, it was still hot.

Johnson claimed he dived he lied. The media believed him because of laws preventing people watching it. Once people saw it, decades later, people generally started agreeing it was a real KO.

[HomicideHenry]

Willard legitimately kayoed Johnson with a perfectly timed right hand that rendered Johnson unconscious. Period.

These myths and legends have tremendously damaged boxings history. It needs to be put away with. Fact of business after the Willard fight Johnson could only beat complete stiffs and journeymen. He was old, it was just his time.

It is about as ridiculous as people who perpetrate the myth that Primo Carnera was completely manufactured, couldn't legitimately fight, etc... No man who was a complete fabrication could get up 11 times from a guy like Max Baer, period.

[Caractacus]

I think Johnson was out on his feet before the big "Cyclonic" Right-Hand
from a body shot that took the wind out of him.

[Caractacus]

The fight was scheduled for 45 rounds... so they were barely half through... because their had to be a transfer of many documents to Johnson's wife that wouldn't start until the fight was started.. They included Johnson retaining full citizenship in the US and a shortened prison stay for his convoluted criminal conviction under the Mann Act.

Johnson was guaranteed an athletic directorship in prison, and he could have professional fights while in prison etc... This was all part of the deal for Johnson to give up the Heavyweight Championship.. Johnson't wife and lawyer went over the documents while the fight was on.. They knew they had 45 rounds... When his wife gave him the signal he sent word to her (confirmed by the newspaper reports) leave the arena because he was ending the fight in the next round.

The temperature wasn't hot as is reported by lying ass Willard... APerno came up with the weather report for that day.. It was a moderate spring day... People were wearing ties and jackets... APerno auneathed a newspaper report of the balmy weather... It was easy to go the rounds because the newspaper reports said it was the most tepid Heavyweight prize fight ever... In fact Newspapers reported that the fans screamed "DO SOMETHING" and "FAKE" during the fight.

If you real Johnson's autobiography you will find the material in newspaper reports agrees with his version of events on that day... Johnson was easily winning the fight according to the newspaper reports.. looked at his wife's box in the 26th round to make sure she left the arena and took the dive.. In fact people were certain Johnson would get up after he went down because nobody heard or saw the fake KO punch land... The newspapers reported that there wasn't a KO punch.

Jack Johnson just 'give-Up" the prize of all prizes ?
Maybe he would have pretended to go along with it all.
So definately he wanted the check to have cleared and the money deposited in his bank account before he stepped into the ring.
Jack Johnson's Mother didn't raise no fool.

[Kalan]

I think Johnson was out on his feet before the big "Cyclonic" Right-Hand
from a body shot that took the wind out of him.

Come on, you're reaching... Johnson never blinked... He continued to invite the fake KO blow that nobody saw land.

[Kalan]

Willard legitimately kayoed Johnson with a perfectly timed right hand that rendered Johnson unconscious. Period.

These myths and legends have tremendously damaged boxings history. It needs to be put away with. Fact of business after the Willard fight Johnson could only beat complete stiffs and journeymen. He was old, it was just his time.

It is about as ridiculous as people who perpetrate the myth that Primo Carnera was completely manufactured, couldn't legitimately fight, etc... No man who was a complete fabrication could get up 11 times from a guy like Max Baer, period.

You're coming up with total Bullcrap again Henry.

Carnera was a real pro boxer with over 100 fights... He had legitimate wins over Sharkey, Loughran, and Uzcudun.

Willard was a FAKE fighter who hated Boxing... He couldn't defend himself well... Willard lost to a Light Heavyweight with a horrendous record a couple fights before Johnson... Dempsey said hitting Willard was like throwing pine cones at the side of a barn... He was the most easily punched famous boxer of all time... Who comes in horrendously fat and in the worst condition of his life for a World Title Fight but Willard? Jess didn't give a crap about Boxing.

After the Willard fight Johnson WON his next 13 fights in a row -- including beating ranked Heavyweight contender Pat Lester at age 48... It WASN'T Johnson's time or he would have quit at 37... He loved boxing and kept fighting until he was an old man... Willard LOST 2 of his next 4 fights by KO and got the HELL out of Boxing after he got the living Hell beaten out of him by raw swinger Luis Firpo -- who found him about as easy to punch as Dempsey and Johnson did.