The Phantom Punch.

[SenorPipino]

btw the Zepruder footage was not seen by the American public until March 1975

Yes, but back at the time ('63) we got, in the newspapers, these (very) blurry still shots taken from the film, several panels in a comic strip format; like idiots we were trying to look at them with magnifying glass. At the time everyone was claiming that the government deliberately blurred the film, of course today we know Zepruder was shaking the camera, but then we didn't know that. Then we eventually got to see the blurry film itself (you say '75; that may be after the Congressional conspiracy re-investigation in the '70s) and then finally we got the computer enhanced/corrected film that you see today.

But anyway I is just my memories, not necessarily correct either.

well,I was still only 14 in March 1975.
I think that was the first time the footage was shown on "Network Television".

All different strokes.

In the fight footage we clearly see Liston getting hit and going down. No mystery, unless you're of the mindset to invent one.

But the Zapruder film only shows JFK getting blown away. You can't tell who fired the shots or where they came from.

[oogiebe]

Yes, but back at the time ('63) we got, in the newspapers, these (very) blurry still shots taken from the film, several panels in a comic strip format; like idiots we were trying to look at them with magnifying glass. At the time everyone was claiming that the government deliberately blurred the film, of course today we know Zepruder was shaking the camera, but then we didn't know that. Then we eventually got to see the blurry film itself (you say '75; that may be after the Congressional conspiracy re-investigation in the '70s) and then finally we got the computer enhanced/corrected film that you see today.

But anyway I is just my memories, not necessarily correct either.

well,I was still only 14 in March 1975.
I think that was the first time the footage was shown on "Network Television".

All different strokes.

In the fight footage we clearly see Liston getting hit and going down. No mystery, unless you're of the mindset to invent one.

But the Zapruder film only shows JFK getting blown away. You can't tell who fired the shots or where they came from.

Harsh comparison. You definitely made your point.

[APerno]

well,I was still only 14 in March 1975.
I think that was the first time the footage was shown on "Network Television".

All different strokes.

In the fight footage we clearly see Liston getting hit and going down. No mystery, unless you're of the mindset to invent one.

But the Zapruder film only shows JFK getting blown away. You can't tell who fired the shots or where they came from.

Harsh comparison. You definitely made your point.

I don't think I menat that kind of comparison. - The way I meant it was, we wasted an inordinate about of time foolishly trying to look at a blurry picture resulting in everyone having an opinion they probably shouldn't have had.

[oogiebe]

All different strokes.

In the fight footage we clearly see Liston getting hit and going down. No mystery, unless you're of the mindset to invent one.

But the Zapruder film only shows JFK getting blown away. You can't tell who fired the shots or where they came from.

Harsh comparison. You definitely made your point.

I don't think I menat that kind of comparison. - The way I meant it was, we wasted an inordinate about of time foolishly trying to look at a blurry picture resulting in everyone having an opinion they probably shouldn't have had.

No worries and I certainly didn't mean any insult. It was a good comp! Sometimes we need to be harsh.

[SenorPipino]

All different strokes.

In the fight footage we clearly see Liston getting hit and going down. No mystery, unless you're of the mindset to invent one.

But the Zapruder film only shows JFK getting blown away. You can't tell who fired the shots or where they came from.

Harsh comparison. You definitely made your point.

I don't think I menat that kind of comparison. - The way I meant it was, we wasted an inordinate about of time foolishly trying to look at a blurry picture resulting in everyone having an opinion they probably shouldn't have had.

People like to be mystified. They enjoy inventing conspiracies, whether it's calling Ali-Liston a fix or claiming 5 guys actually shot JFK from a dozen different locations.

Good film, or blurry film. It doesn't matter. These controversies will live forever.

[oogiebe]

Harsh comparison. You definitely made your point.

I don't think I menat that kind of comparison. - The way I meant it was, we wasted an inordinate about of time foolishly trying to look at a blurry picture resulting in everyone having an opinion they probably shouldn't have had.

People like to be mystified. They enjoy inventing conspiracies, whether it's calling Ali-Liston a fix or claiming 5 guys actually shot JFK from a dozen different locations.

Good film, or blurry film. It doesn't matter. These controversies will live forever.

Great point, but it won't stop the nonsense. Unprovable means endless debate.

[APerno]

Was Sonny Liston murdered because he didn't tank the Wepner fight? . . . Sorry, sorry, I'll try not to do that again.

[oogiebe]

Was Sonny Liston murdered because he didn't tank the Wepner fight? . . . Sorry, sorry, I'll try not to do that again.

LMFAO!!! Love it. Next we can discuss which round Norton broke Ali's jaw. Or whether Klitchko was 'drugged' during or before Brewster fight, or perhaps Sandy Sandler got paid off to drug Foreman in Kinshasha. Any more? Let's keep it going! More fun than the thread.

[Caractacus]

btw the Zepruder footage was not seen by the American public until March 1975 when someone snuck a copy of it out and it was shown on
GOOD NIGHT AMERICA (I remember watching that show when it was on at night-live!)

BTW Dick Gregory along with NYT Sports writer Robert Lipsyte
visted Sonny Liston the day before the fight when he was staying in the Mansion at Poland Spring in MA.
Dick Gregory was trying to get help to donate Turkeys to the poor people in Mississippi for Thansgiving.
also when asked earlier how he felt when he lost the title in Miami,Liston replied that he "felt like when the President got shot".

[Kalan]

I am going to throw something out to you that might touch the third rail of racism but . . . you can call me on it if you think so ..... This is the opinion of some writer for one of the boxing rags, back in the eighties.

The comment he made was that all black fighters (American) are an enigma, you never know who is going to enter the ring on any given night. (Remember this is about Black fighters of the 60s through the 80s.) -- He expounded on this by suggesting that Black fighters still find themselves functioning in a White dominated exploitative business and at times turn in sub-par performances as a passive aggressive retaliation. Fighters like Douglas and Tyson come to mind quick.

Does that sound racist?

P.S. Watch the Marciano interview I mentioned in the above post. I know you're not a big fan of his ....

Yes it does sound racist... Particularly when you bring in Bramble, Douglas, Walcott etc... WHITE guys give horseshit performances... Who are THEY getting back at??? You should be ashamed of yourself...To think Liston would turn in a bad performance to get back at white people??? Liston had a great life (at the time) because of white people.

Liston was turning in a good performance... He got up from the FIRST knockdown he ever suffered and resumed the fight easily ducking and slipping Ali's follow up shots... If Liston intended to quit he would have stayed on the canvas... He WASN'T hurt as badly as Ali was after the Cooper left hook... NO REASON in the world not to continue fighting.

I liked Marciano as a person... He said Ali got 6 inches of power on his punch and it could have been very effective, and "hit Liston in a good spot and confused him very much." It's not a comment anyone wanted to hear... Many people were racist in those days and were looking for excuses to tar black people and make fun of them... Marciano was also floored by a short right coming in and THAT'S why the question was asked... It was a brilliantly timed right that caused Liston to drop to the canvas... Since Ali DIDN'T GO TO A NEUTRAL CORNER Liston didn't have to get up until he DID...

Liston got up with Ali close to him ( NOT in a neutral corner) so he was taking a risk... And he was ready to fight.

[APerno]

Was Sonny Liston murdered because he didn't tank the Wepner fight? . . . Sorry, sorry, I'll try not to do that again.

LMFAO!!! Love it. Next we can discuss which round Norton broke Ali's jaw. Or whether Klitchko was 'drugged' during or before Brewster fight, or perhaps Sandy Sandler got paid off to drug Foreman in Kinshasha. Any more? Let's keep it going! More fun than the thread.

Except we know that Mike Trent, working for Boo Boo Hoffman, for the benefit of Arnold Rothstein, poisoned Dempsey before the Philadelphia fight. That's a fact!

I guess everyone has the disease at some level.

I haven't heard the Sandy Saddler accusation for a while now, forgot about that one. He did break with Foreman immediately after the fight, right? --- LOL

[Kalan]

Foreman claims he was super weak for Ali... He said many times he felt weaker by the 3rd and 4th rounds of the Ali fight than he ever felt for any fight... He felt like he was going to fall over and he finally stumbled to the canvas.. You see his head off the canvas for the entire count.. His face wasn't swollen, bruised, and beaten like it was versus Alex Stewart.

I'm positive Wladimir was drugged prior to the 1st Brewster fight... In the rematch he handled Brewster with perfect ease with a broken left hand, and would have won the 1st fight had he not been drugged... I believe the drug was in the Vaseline which Joe Souza kept rubbing on Wlad between rounds... Souza was a shady character...

Wald knew he was drugged and hired questionable lawyer Judd Burstein's legal team to investigate what happened to his lost blood and urine samples... The story is on the web. I think Burstein took payments from the mafia to tank his investigation... Almost certainly the mafia was involved... Millions of dollars were bet on big underdog Brewster just before the fight... The money moved the odds in an unprecedented way... Jim Lampley talked about it before the fight.

I don't know how Burstein wound up as Wladimir's selection to investigate his drugging... That's a mystery.

Burstein was also Wilder's lawyer in the Povetkin case... Burstein brought in lying witnesses... Povetkin's lawyer didn't put on a case... He presented NO witnesses and NO case... He claimed Burstein bought off all the witnesses which is a lie..

[SenorPipino]

I don't think I menat that kind of comparison. - The way I meant it was, we wasted an inordinate about of time foolishly trying to look at a blurry picture resulting in everyone having an opinion they probably shouldn't have had.

People like to be mystified. They enjoy inventing conspiracies, whether it's calling Ali-Liston a fix or claiming 5 guys actually shot JFK from a dozen different locations.

Good film, or blurry film. It doesn't matter. These controversies will live forever.

Great point, but it won't stop the nonsense. Unprovable means endless debate.

That's exactly right.

As long as it's unprovable you can claim whatever you want, create theoretical scenarios, sound like a knowledgeable insider and no one can contradict you.

[SenorPipino]

Foreman claims he was super weak for Ali... He said many times he felt weaker by the 3rd and 4th rounds of the Ali fight than he ever felt for any fight... He felt like he was going to fall over and he finally stumbled to the canvas.. You see his head off the canvas for the entire count.. His face wasn't swollen, bruised, and beaten like it was versus Alex Stewart.

I'm positive Wladimir was drugged prior to the 1st Brewster fight... In the rematch he handled Brewster with perfect ease with a broken left hand, and would have won the 1st fight had he not been drugged... I believe the drug was in the Vaseline which Joe Souza kept rubbing on Wlad between rounds... Souza was a shady character...

Wald knew he was drugged and hired questionable lawyer Judd Burstein's legal team to investigate what happened to his lost blood and urine samples... The story is on the web. I think Burstein took payments from the mafia to tank his investigation... Almost certainly the mafia was involved... Millions of dollars were bet on big underdog Brewster just before the fight... The money moved the odds in an unprecedented way... Jim Lampley talked about it before the fight.

I don't know how Burstein wound up as Wladimir's selection to investigate his drugging... That's a mystery.

Burstein was also Wilder's lawyer in the Povetkin case... Burstein brought in lying witnesses... Povetkin's lawyer didn't put on a case... He presented NO witnesses and NO case... He claimed Burstein bought off all the witnesses which is a lie..

You're making all this up, aren't you?

[Kalan]

Instead of accusing me of fallacies, why don't you shut it if you don't know a damned thing about it?

You can listen to the broadcast on Youtube and Jim Lampley informs the public of the astounding news about the late money that came in on Brewster, moving the betting odds in an unprecedented way...

You can also view stories on the Internet how Wladimir and Steward knew he was drugged and his urine and blood samples disappearing.. And that he hired Judd Burstein's investigative team to find out what happened to his samples and what he was drugged with.. Wladimir spend 100's of thousands on this.. He knew he was drugged and wanted to find out exactly what and who it was.. Justice isn't always done and the truth doesn't always come out.. That's life.

[Caractacus]

i'm not a doctor (actually I barely graduated from HS),but I think the reason George Foreman became so weak
in his fight with Ali was his blood presurre he was so tense.Looks like he was about to hyper-ventilate
back in his corner.Also he became suspicious of his manager and trainer Dick Sadler,
particularly when Sadler gave him a swig out of a small plastic bottle in the ring just before the bout started.
"this tastes like Medacine !" Foreman said after he spat it out.
"Same water as usual" said Dick Sadler.
(I personally feel Sadler gave him some type of anti-histmin to help Foreman not hurt him)
but did't tell Foreman because Foreman was basically honest person and would'nt go for ttics like that.

[BoxBuzz]

Foreman claims he was super weak for Ali... He said many times he felt weaker by the 3rd and 4th rounds of the Ali fight than he ever felt for any fight... He felt like he was going to fall over and he finally stumbled to the canvas.. You see his head off the canvas for the entire count.. His face wasn't swollen, bruised, and beaten like it was versus Alex Stewart.

I'm positive Wladimir was drugged prior to the 1st Brewster fight... In the rematch he handled Brewster with perfect ease with a broken left hand, and would have won the 1st fight had he not been drugged... I believe the drug was in the Vaseline which Joe Souza kept rubbing on Wlad between rounds... Souza was a shady character...

Wald knew he was drugged and hired questionable lawyer Judd Burstein's legal team to investigate what happened to his lost blood and urine samples... The story is on the web. I think Burstein took payments from the mafia to tank his investigation... Almost certainly the mafia was involved... Millions of dollars were bet on big underdog Brewster just before the fight... The money moved the odds in an unprecedented way... Jim Lampley talked about it before the fight.

I don't know how Burstein wound up as Wladimir's selection to investigate his drugging... That's a mystery.

Burstein was also Wilder's lawyer in the Povetkin case... Burstein brought in lying witnesses... Povetkin's lawyer didn't put on a case... He presented NO witnesses and NO case... He claimed Burstein bought off all the witnesses which is a lie..

There is nothing better than a good conspiracy theory. We can only hope they put up a boxing ring at area 51 so we can look forward to many more of your "Tales of the Unexpected".

[Kalan]

Foreman claims he was super weak for Ali... He said many times he felt weaker by the 3rd and 4th rounds of the Ali fight than he ever felt for any fight... He felt like he was going to fall over and he finally stumbled to the canvas.. You see his head off the canvas for the entire count.. His face wasn't swollen, bruised, and beaten like it was versus Alex Stewart.

I'm positive Wladimir was drugged prior to the 1st Brewster fight... In the rematch he handled Brewster with perfect ease with a broken left hand, and would have won the 1st fight had he not been drugged... I believe the drug was in the Vaseline which Joe Souza kept rubbing on Wlad between rounds... Souza was a shady character...

Wald knew he was drugged and hired questionable lawyer Judd Burstein's legal team to investigate what happened to his lost blood and urine samples... The story is on the web. I think Burstein took payments from the mafia to tank his investigation... Almost certainly the mafia was involved... Millions of dollars were bet on big underdog Brewster just before the fight... The money moved the odds in an unprecedented way... Jim Lampley talked about it before the fight.

I don't know how Burstein wound up as Wladimir's selection to investigate his drugging... That's a mystery.

Burstein was also Wilder's lawyer in the Povetkin case... Burstein brought in lying witnesses... Povetkin's lawyer didn't put on a case... He presented NO witnesses and NO case... He claimed Burstein bought off all the witnesses which is a lie..

There is nothing better than a good conspiracy theory. We can only hope they put up a boxing ring at area 51 so we can look forward to many more of your "Tales of the Unexpected".

I knew you were going to come around with your conspiracy theories theory... Conspiracies happen... Boxers get drugged.. people get paid off. Judges get paid off. Referees get paid off. A trail of evidence is left behind.

You're free to look at it objectively and draw correct conclusions... Or you can be blind, deaf, and dumb and pretend we live in a world where the good guys always win... The only thing I'm certain of, is it will all be sorted out on Judgment Day... I'd go a little crazy if I didn't believe the ultimate curve of the Universe tends towards justice.

[BoxBuzz]

If you ever grow a beard, I'd recommend Occam's Razor

[oogiebe]

If you ever grow a beard, I'd recommend Occam's Razor

I'm not sure that too many people got it, but ...LMAO!! to keep it simple! lol!

[Kalan]

If you ever grow a beard, I'd recommend Occam's Razor

I've grown dozens of them... I'd recommend something more mellow for you... I little sax before you post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6VeHpFx6hQ

[Kalan]

Same thing I've seen for more than 50 years.

Liston comes forward, head thrust toward Ali. Sticks out a jab that falls woefully short and the champ clocks him with a chopping right.

Down goes Sonny Liston.

Where's the controversy?

WHERE'S THE CONTROVERSY???? WHAAA DA FK??

Ali DEFIED the referee's orders to go to a neutral corner and ran around the ring... Walcott FAILED to suspend the count in accordance with the neutral corner rule... Walcott NEVER gave Liston a count because Ali NEVER went to a neutral corner... Instead of calling TIME cuz Nat Fleischer was screaming at him, Walcott walks over to Fleischer.... Liston and Ali resume fighting without supervision .... Ali attacks and misses a bunch of followup punches, proving Liston's refexes are intact and he could easily've continued... Walcott, Ali, and Liston all thought the fight was still on because there was no count.

If The count was paused according to the rules Ali would have either been disqualified or the fight would have continued... Liston didn't break a single rule... Ali Did... Walcott never looked at the rule book and neither did Nat Fleischer who WASN'T an official and had NO BUSINESS interjecting himself into the officiating of the fight... Walcott was smart enough to know that, but he was just so discombobulated and fuzzy he messed up royally.

Instead of setting things right -- the Boxing Commission made ex-con Liston the fall guy... Their actions were criminal.

Yeah, Yeah, Kalan. We know all about Nat Fleischer, Joe Walcott's ineptness, Liston tumbling, Ali running around the ring.

But here's the initial controversy about some sort of phantom punch. It clearly landed, a nice right hand shot that Liston pretty much moved right into.

In 1965, they didn't have 5 million camera angles when televising a fight.

If they did, we would have seen that so-called phantom punch so clearly that no one would have ever tried to dispute and distort its effect.

But trying to create a murky conspiracy and brand a fight as a "fraud" is much more entertaining, I suppose. Even after more than 50 years.

The knockdown was NOT in dispute.... But Liston got up in plenty of time according to the neutral corner rule... That's the fraud... The count was never suspended and NOTHING was ever done to correct the injustice.

Everyone knows the the punch was real.... There's on "murky conspiracy" it's out on the open.... Liston got screwed royally and the fight should have continued... The neutral corner rule says the count shall be suspended if the fighter scoring the knockdown refuses to go to a neutral corner... Go to 22:30 of this video and HOF referee ruby Goldstein explains it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCJgRU9 ... e=youtu.be

[APerno]

WHERE'S THE CONTROVERSY???? WHAAA DA FK??

Ali DEFIED the referee's orders to go to a neutral corner and ran around the ring... Walcott FAILED to suspend the count in accordance with the neutral corner rule... Walcott NEVER gave Liston a count because Ali NEVER went to a neutral corner... Instead of calling TIME cuz Nat Fleischer was screaming at him, Walcott walks over to Fleischer.... Liston and Ali resume fighting without supervision .... Ali attacks and misses a bunch of followup punches, proving Liston's refexes are intact and he could easily've continued... Walcott, Ali, and Liston all thought the fight was still on because there was no count.

If The count was paused according to the rules Ali would have either been disqualified or the fight would have continued... Liston didn't break a single rule... Ali Did... Walcott never looked at the rule book and neither did Nat Fleischer who WASN'T an official and had NO BUSINESS interjecting himself into the officiating of the fight... Walcott was smart enough to know that, but he was just so discombobulated and fuzzy he messed up royally.

Instead of setting things right -- the Boxing Commission made ex-con Liston the fall guy... Their actions were criminal.

Yeah, Yeah, Kalan. We know all about Nat Fleischer, Joe Walcott's ineptness, Liston tumbling, Ali running around the ring.

But here's the initial controversy about some sort of phantom punch. It clearly landed, a nice right hand shot that Liston pretty much moved right into.

In 1965, they didn't have 5 million camera angles when televising a fight.

If they did, we would have seen that so-called phantom punch so clearly that no one would have ever tried to dispute and distort its effect.

But trying to create a murky conspiracy and brand a fight as a "fraud" is much more entertaining, I suppose. Even after more than 50 years.

The knockdown was NOT in dispute.... But Liston got up in plenty of time according to the neutral corner rule... That's the fraud... The count was never suspended and NOTHING was ever done to correct the injustice.

Everyone knows the the punch was real.... There's on "murky conspiracy" it's out on the open.... Liston got screwed royally and the fight should have continued... The neutral corner rule says the count shall be suspended if the fighter scoring the knockdown refuses to go to a neutral corner... Go to 22:30 of this video and HOF referee ruby Goldstein explains it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCJgRU9 ... e=youtu.be

OK fight continues . . . Ali by TKO in three rounds anyway?

[Kalan]

HELL NO.... Ali was a weak hitter... Especially compared to ATG puncher Sonny Liston...

The way Ali was attacking recklessly there was a VERY good chance he'd run into a KO shot.... We don't know.

And Ali could easily have been DISQUALIFIED for repeatedly defying the referee... I've NEVER seen ANYONE else get away with repeatedly refusing to go to a neutral corner.... HAVE YOU????? Don't ignore this question like you always do.

That's the CRIME of this thing... Liston abides by all the rules and gets sanctioned... Ali throws away the rule book and skates away free... What kind of Bizarro World are we living in??? Like I said....life isn't fair and there's never been a better example of that fact than the actions of the Maine Boxing Commission and their colleagues across he US.

Sanctions were not picked up by foreign boxing commissions who pointed out the neutral corner rule was in effect.

[APerno]

HELL NO.... Ali was a weak hitter... Especially compared to ATG puncher Sonny Liston...

The way Ali was attacking recklessly there was a VERY good chance he'd run into a KO shot.... We don't know.

And Ali could easily have been DISQUALIFIED for repeatedly defying the referee... I've NEVER seen ANYONE else get away with repeatedly refusing to go to a neutral corner.... HAVE YOU????? Don't ignore this question like you always do.

That's the CRIME of this thing... Liston abides by all the rules and gets sanctioned... Ali throws away the rule book and skates away free... What kind of Bizarro World are we living in??? Like I said....life isn't fair and there's never been a better example of that fact than the actions of the Maine Boxing Commission and their colleagues across he US.

Sanctions were not picked up by foreign boxing commissions who pointed out the neutral corner rule was in effect.

If I was ignoring a question is was probably because I thought you were asking it rhetorically.

Um? I would say throughout his career Ali got way with much, maybe more than any other modern era fighter, e.g. I always thought Ali hooking Frazier's head and pulling him into his chest for 12 rounds( Ali-Frazier II) was an extremely unfair night; a night of favoritism.

But all that came later and may not apply here. At this time he was Cassius X and not the socially important/romanticize/world renowned/Black icon yet. It would have been easy for any ref to have disqualified Cassius X and not have it be a career ending event; at that time half the population at least would have cheered any ref who stood up to him. Which makes me think the refs didn't consider his behavior to be of DQ level.

Anyway all that (of course) is irrelevant because Walcott was never really in control. They shouldn't have put an ex fighter in there with Cassius Clay it encouraged his bad behavior. They should have used a named ref with a reputation, then 'Clay' would have been less likely to risk being DQed.

Just the other day I was watching the Bonavena fight again and I was very impressed with Ali 15th round power.

Ali had already made Liston RTD over six rounds, and there are two rules of thumb (conventional wisdom) that suggest he would do it again, but quicker.

Rule 1: Fighters tend to get better after they win a championship (Angelo Dundee)
Rule 2: A fighter who loses by KO in a big fight will usually lose the rematch quicker. (history)

Yea, I say Ali stops him inside of six rounds.