SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[Kalan]

[Bowe] also beat Gonzalez, Donald, Seldon, and Hide who were all undefeated at the time that Bowe fought them. Coetzer was 39-2. If this happned today, people would be going on about the tough competition that he beat.

That’s a crock of BS…. Seldon wasn’t undefeated... Everyone knows McCall had already ruined Seldon and his chin was tissue paper after that beating... He couldn't take a shot... He laid down like a coward when Tyson came at him.

Donald was a cherry-picked greenie with 16 fights when Bowe fought him... It was Bowe’s 36th fights... Vitali Klitschko won by KO over a much more polished Donald – and Klitschko was the only man who ever stopped Donald.

Gonzalez should have beaten Bowe by DQ.... Bowe deliberately hit Gonzalez with big swings after the bell clanged 7 times... Jim Lampley called Bowe “Stupid” for risking disqualification... George Foreman blasted Bowe as well. American referee Mills Lane – who had been WARNING Bowe for fouling – didn’t even take a point for the outrageous foul punches... An aging Tim Witherspoon easily knocked out Gonzalez - and without fouling the crap out of him.

Herbie Hide was a smallish China chinned man who later fought as a Cruiserweight... Hide easily outboxed Bowe for 3 rounds – until Bowe started fouling and mauling Hide in the 3rd, which he was allowed to do by American referee Richard Steele.. It took Bowe 6 rounds to get the 27-pound lighter (241 to 214) Hide out… Vitali Klitschko blew Hide away in 2 rounds.

When the Klitschkos and Joshua beat competition that weak they were vilified by hating Americans... Lewis and the Klitschko Bros beat more high caliber Heavyweights than Bowe, Tyson, or Holyfield ever did... That's the reason there were no prime fights between Bowe, Tyson, and Holyfield with Lewis... and NONE with the Klitschko Bros... Years of ducking.

[oogiebe]

[Bowe] also beat Gonzalez, Donald, Seldon, and Hide who were all undefeated at the time that Bowe fought them. Coetzer was 39-2. If this happned today, people would be going on about the tough competition that he beat.

That’s a crock of BS…. Seldon wasn’t undefeated... Everyone knows McCall had already ruined Seldon and his chin was tissue paper after that beating... He couldn't take a shot... He laid down like a coward when Tyson came at him.

Donald was a cherry-picked greenie with 16 fights when Bowe fought him... It was Bowe’s 36th fights... Vitali Klitschko won by KO over a much more polished Donald – and Klitschko was the only man who ever stopped Donald.

Gonzalez should have beaten Bowe by DQ.... Bowe deliberately hit Gonzalez with big swings after the bell clanged 7 times... Jim Lampley called Bowe “Stupid” for risking disqualification... George Foreman blasted Bowe as well. American referee Mills Lane – who had been WARNING Bowe for fouling – didn’t even take a point for the outrageous foul punches... An aging Tim Witherspoon easily knocked out Gonzalez - and without fouling the crap out of him.

Herbie Hide was a smallish China chinned man who later fought as a Cruiserweight... Hide easily outboxed Bowe for 3 rounds – until Bowe started fouling and mauling Hide in the 3rd, which he was allowed to do by American referee Richard Steele.. It took Bowe 6 rounds to get the 27-pound lighter (241 to 214) Hide out… Vitali Klitschko blew Hide away in 2 rounds.

When the Klitschkos and Joshua blew away competition that weak they were vilified by hating Americans... In addition, Lewis and the Klitschko Bros beat more high caliber Heavyweights than Bowe, Tyson, or Holyfield ever did.

Get into an argument with Kalan, and he'll provide tons of counter facts. Agree with him or not, he does his homework.

[Kalan]

Thanks Oogie... I get tired of Alp's constant BS about little Heavyweights being better than big Heavyweights... And his constant bitching that any era that Americans aren't dominating just have terrible Heavyweights.

[Cojimar 1946]

As for David Tua I consider him to be part of the Klitschko era so I didn't include him. There is generally some level of overlap between eras but by the same token I think distinctions need to be made. Vitali Klitschko has many fights in the 1990s but people generally don't see him as being part of the golden Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson era. Likewise by the time Tua emerged as a contender in 1996 the division had changed a great deal from the early 90s--Bowe was finished, Ruddock had fallen out of contention, Bruno was gone, etc.

[Kalan]

Bowe and Ruddock were gone because they got punched upside the head so much.... Very poor defenders.

Mike Tyson was no paragon of defense either..... and he did poorly with big, tall, strong, fast, skilled Heavyweights.

[oogiebe]

Thanks Oogie... I get tired of Alp's constant BS about little Heavyweights being better than big Heavyweights... And his constant bitching that any era that Americans aren't dominating just have terrible Heavyweights.

No problem Kalan. We've had our eruptions, but you are good at what you do.

[Ambling Alp II]

My intention was to only list wins over guys who were ranked in the top 10. There are plenty of guys with impressive records that these guys faced but who were not highly ranked. Morrison, Donald, etc were not among the divisions elite. There are plenty of fighters today with good records who likewise are not highly ranked.

You included Akinwande and Mason who were never considered anywhere near the "elite". Sanders was never considered anything except for a short time after he crushed Wladmiir Klitschko.

Morrison fought some of the top guys of his day and was a contender for awhile. He was a contender for a longer period of time than Sanders was.

Tua was a contender for about 8 years. fought several top heavyweights in the last 1990s and early 2000s. That is a glaring omission and someone who was much more highly thought of than Akinwande, Mason and Sanders.

[oogiebe]

My intention was to only list wins over guys who were ranked in the top 10. There are plenty of guys with impressive records that these guys faced but who were not highly ranked. Morrison, Donald, etc were not among the divisions elite. There are plenty of fighters today with good records who likewise are not highly ranked.

You included Akinwande and Mason who were never considered anywhere near the "elite". Sanders was never considered anything except for a short time after he crushed Wladmiir Klitschko.

Morrison fought some of the top guys of his day and was a contender for awhile. He was a contender for a longer period of time than Sanders was.

Tua was a contender for about 8 years. fought several top heavyweights in the last 1990s and early 2000s. That is a glaring omission and someone who was much more highly thought of than Akinwande, Mason and Sanders.

Ambling is spot on.

[Cojimar 1946]

I would rate the Klitschko, Tua era as follows
1. Wladimir Klitschko
2.Vitali Klitschko
3.Ike Ibeabuchi
4.David Tua
5.Ruslan Chagaev
6.Chris Byrd
7.Nikolai Valuev
8.John Ruiz
9.Tony Thompson
10.Hasim Rahman
11.Oleg Maskaev
12.Jameel McCline

[Ambling Alp II]

Interesting that Ross Purrity, Corrie Sanders nor Lamon Brewster made the list.

[Kalan]

My intention was to only list wins over guys who were ranked in the top 10. There are plenty of guys with impressive records that these guys faced but who were not highly ranked. Morrison, Donald, etc were not among the divisions elite. There are plenty of fighters today with good records who likewise are not highly ranked.

You included Akinwande and Mason who were never considered anywhere near the "elite". Sanders was never considered anything except for a short time after he crushed Wladmiir Klitschko.

Morrison fought some of the top guys of his day and was a contender for awhile. He was a contender for a longer period of time than Sanders was.

Tua was a contender for about 8 years. fought several top heavyweights in the last 1990s and early 2000s. That is a glaring omission and someone who was much more highly thought of than Akinwande, Mason and Sanders.

Morrison was never on the level of Sanders... His best wins were over washed up George Foreman and Kaput Razor Ruddock... He got smashed out early by Ray Mercer and Michael Bentt... Michael Bentt was so bad that Herbie Hide almost killed him... Hide was blown away in 2 rounds by Vitali Klitschko... The Mercer who obliterated Morrison could barely land a shot on Wladimir Klitschko.. Wlad decked Mercer and made him quit.

[oogiebe]

I swear it seems like Chagaev has been around since Marciano!

[Cojimar 1946]

Anyway Klitschko's era has been accused of being weak but I think it's reasonably strong compared to the previous era and following era.

[Kalan]

The Klitschkos ruled a long time.... People say Wladimir fought stronger comp with Haye, Povetkin, Chambers etc.

But Vitali's opponents deserve a look... They had great records and he was 3-time Heavyweight Champion.

Corrie Sanders... 39-2... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round stoppage
Herbie Hide... 31-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... KO 2
Sam Peter... 30-1... Wins Heavyweight Championship... 8 round battering.
Tomasz Adamak... 44-1... 2-Division World Champion and never stopped before. KO 10
Juan Carlos Gomez... 44-1... Former World Cruiserweight Champion. KO 9
Odlanier Solis...17-0 undefeated Olympic Gold Medal winner. 1st round KO
Manuel Charr... 21-0 undefeated top ranked contender. Stoppage on cut in 4 rounds
Kevin Johnson... 22-0-1 undefeated top ranked contender. Swept every round on 2 cards
Chris Arreola... 27-0 undefeated top ranked contender. 10 round stoppage
Kirk Johnson... 34-1-1... Only previous loss was a ticky-tac DQ… 2 round KO
Timo Hoffman... 22-0... Bigger and taller than Vitali... Swept every round on 2 cards
Ed Mahone... 21-0-2... Undefeated contender... KO 3
Shannon Briggs, 51-5-1... A 2-time Heavyweight Champion. Swept every round of UD
Chris Byrd, 30-1... Vitali was winning very easily on all scorecards when forced to retire due to a completely severed rotator cuff assembly. He entered the ring with a slight rotator tear... He thought he could fight through it... It soon got much worse and eventually severed completely... Vitali retired after the 9th ahead on all cards.
Lennox Lewis, 40-2-1... Vitali was winning on ALL scorecards when it was stopped on cuts on his left eyelid caused by foul blows... If they went to the scorecards Vitali would have won a Unanimous Technical Decision 6.

They should have because of thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

[Kalan]

The Mercer who obliterated Morrison could barely land a shot on Wladimir Klitschko.. Wlad decked Mercer and made him quit.

And yet again the moronic post of the week goes to Kolon. Mercer was 31 years old when he obliterated Morrison, but 42 when he faced Vlad K.

Mercer had not reached 42 for the Klitschko Fight you lying bastard...

Larry Holmes was 42 when he boxed the crap out of Ray Mercer... Larry told ring siders "I'M NO TOMMY MORRISON!!"

[oogiebe]

The Mercer who obliterated Morrison could barely land a shot on Wladimir Klitschko.. Wlad decked Mercer and made him quit.

And yet again the moronic post of the week goes to Kolon. Mercer was 31 years old when he obliterated Morrison, but 42 when he faced Vlad K.

He was not 42 you lying bastard.

41 for Klitchko fight.

[Kalan]

Right... Wladimir was the same age when he fought Joshua...

And he landed one HELL of a lot more than 5 power punches -- Mercer's total output against Wladimir.

[Ambling Alp II]

And yet again the moronic post of the week goes to Kolon. Mercer was 31 years old when he obliterated Morrison, but 42 when he faced Vlad K.

He was not 42 you lying bastard.

41 for Klitchko fight.

Thanks for the clarification.
If he was 42, he is past his prime.
41 is a totally different story. Literally every fighter is about as good when they are 41 as 31. That is virtually no difference. Everything dramatically changes when you turn 42.

Since he was a mere 41, this has to go down as yet another tremendous win for Klitschko.

[oogiebe]

He was not 42 you lying bastard.

41 for Klitchko fight.

Thanks for the clarification.
If he was 42, he is past his prime.
41 is a totally different story. Literally every fighter is about as good when they are 41 as 31. That is virtually no difference. Everything dramatically changes when you turn 42.

Since he was a mere 41, this has to go down as yet another tremendous win for Klitschko.

LMFAO! Right!?

[Kalan]

He was not 42 you lying bastard.

41 for Klitchko fight.

Thanks for the clarification.
If he was 42, he is past his prime.
41 is a totally different story. Literally every fighter is about as good when they are 41 as 31. That is virtually no difference. Everything dramatically changes when you turn 42.

Since he was a mere 41, this has to go down as yet another tremendous win for Klitschko.

Not tremendous... But since a lot of boxers fight til 41 and older, and Mercer fought til he was past 50, the sheer dominance shows that Klitschko would have been a massive favorite over a 31 year old Mercer as well...

[Cojimar 1946]

The fighters of Klitschko's era have a mixed record of facing their best contemporaries. The following show all the top contenders they faced when both fighters were still world class (ignoring fights when one or both were unranked). I switched Rahman with Tony Thompson
Wladimir Klitschko (Chris Byrd, Jameel McCline, Corrie Sanders, Lamon Brewster, Samuel Peter, Calvin Brock, Sultan Ibragimov, Tony Thompson, Ruslan Chagaev, Eddie Chambers, David Haye, Alexander Povetkin, Kubrat Pulev, Tyson Fury, Anthony Joshua)
Vitali Klitschko-(Chris Byrd, Lennox Lewis, Corrie Sanders, Samuel Peter, Juan Carlos Gomez, Chris Arreola, Tomasz Adamek)
Ike Ibeabuchi-(David Tua, Chris Byrd)
David Tua-(Ike Ibeabuchi, Hasim Rahman, Lennox Lewis, Chris Byrd)
Ruslan Chagaev-(John Ruiz, Nikolai Valuev, Wladimir Klitschko, Alexander Povetkin)
Chris Byrd-(Ike Ibeabuchi, Vitali Klitschko, Wladimir Klitschko, Evander Holyfield, Fres Oquendo, Andrew Golota, Jameel McCline)
Nikolai Valuev-(John Ruiz, Ruslan Chagaev, David Haye)
John Ruiz-(Evander Holyfield, Kirk Johnson, Roy Jones, Fres Oquendo, Hasim Rahman, Andrew Golota, James Toney, Nikolai Valuev, Ruslan Chagaev)
Hasim Rahman-(David Tua, Oleg Maskaev, Corrie Sanders, Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, John Ruiz, Monte Barrett, James Toney)
Tony Thompson-(Wladimir Klitschko)
Oleg Maskaev-(Hasim Rahman, Kirk Johnson,)
Jameel McCline-(Michael Grant, Wladimir Klitschko, Chris Byrd)

[Cojimar 1946]

Anthony Joshua last fought in late March. If we compare his best wins with those of Lennox Lewis as of March 1994 we get the following matchups.
Joshua Lewis
1.Wladimir Klitschko vs 1.Tony Tucker
2.Joseph Parker vs 2.Donovan Ruddock
3.Dominic Breazeale vs 3.Frank Bruno
4.Dilian Whyte vs 4.Gary Mason
5.Carlos Takam vs 5. Phil Jackson
Frankly, I don't see an edge for Lewis here and would not be at all surprised if Joshua's opponents swept Lewis's opponents.

[oogiebe]

Anthony Joshua last fought in late March. If we compare his best wins with those of Lennox Lewis as of March 1994 we get the following matchups.
Joshua Lewis
1.Wladimir Klitschko vs 1.Tony Tucker
2.Joseph Parker vs 2.Donovan Ruddock
3.Dominic Breazeale vs 3.Frank Bruno
4.Dilian Whyte vs 4.Gary Mason
5.Carlos Takam vs 5. Phil Jackson
Frankly, I don't see an edge for Lewis here and would not be at all surprised if Joshua's opponents swept Lewis's opponents.

C'mon Caj...be fair. Wlad was past his prime. Tucker would take largely outpoint a 41 y/o Wlad. He was so underrated and forgotten thanks to Tyson.
Can't call who would win Parker/Rudduck but I'd lean towards Ruddock. Bruno beats Breazeale; Whyte bests Mason; Takem Bests Jackson. JMHO.

[Cojimar 1946]

Sure, Wladimir was past his prime when he faced Joshua but I think Tucker was past it as well when he fought Lewis. Wladimir was a much better fighter in his prime than Tucker and I would think that even a somewhat diminished version would still be too much for Tucker especially given Tucker had started to slip himself. How do you see the fight going personally?

[Kalan]

Anthony Joshua last fought in late March. If we compare his best wins with those of Lennox Lewis as of March 1994 we get the following matchups.
Joshua Lewis
1.Wladimir Klitschko vs 1.Tony Tucker
2.Joseph Parker vs 2.Donovan Ruddock
3.Dominic Breazeale vs 3.Frank Bruno
4.Dilian Whyte vs 4.Gary Mason
5.Carlos Takam vs 5. Phil Jackson
Frankly, I don't see an edge for Lewis here and would not be at all surprised if Joshua's opponents swept Lewis's opponents.

C'mon Caj...be fair. Wlad was past his prime. Tucker would take largely outpoint a 41 y/o Wlad. He was so underrated and forgotten thanks to Tyson.
Can't call who would win Parker/Rudduck but I'd lean towards Ruddock. Bruno beats Breazeale; Whyte bests Mason; Takem Bests Jackson. JMHO.

Tucker wouldn't do a damned thing... Wide open.. Had no real weapons.. Was behind vs Buster Douglas when he scored the KO on a very poorly unconditioned Douglas... Tucker had no dedication... A 41-year-old Wladimir would smash Tucker.

Forget Tucker was a crackhead who Herbie Hide blew away in 2 rounds.... If you have no dedication you don't keep gettting better like Wladimir did... I'm certain that Joshua will still be working hard on his technical skills when he's 40.