The Phantom Punch.

[SenorPipino]

I don't understand why people still call conspiracy in this fight. It was a legitimate knockdown. Liston eventually got up and the fight was ridiculously stopped through inept refereeing not because of some conspiracy.

I understand why there may have been doubts at the time but the footage available now surely rules out any phantom punch or fix theory?

There was a lot of confusion and people with no lives love conspiracies. Simply put.

Ah you're no fun, we haven't even begun to explore whether the Nation of Islam had coerced Liston. [Just kidding; but that one was going around for a while too. That they had threatened to kill him if he won.]

Now see my well placed sources told me many times that Liston wasn't worried about being killed.

Instead he believed that members of a rival NOI faction were in fact going to get up in the arena and assassinate Ali.

Remember that Malcolm X had been killed just a few months earlier by disgruntled Black Muslims, so Liston's terror was warranted.

Sonny wanted out quickly before all the shooting started.

I swear that is the truth.

Unless the truth is that all NOI members loved Ali and to guarantee victory, they kidnapped Liston's wife and baby son and were holding them captive in a Lewiston motel.

If Sonny failed to take a dive in the first, they would be executed.

I swear that is the truth.

Unless the truth is ..........

[Kalan]

LMAO!!! Tons on intrigue...

I swear there was never a fight in History with more urban legends than the second Ali-Liston Fight... A doctor who treated meth addicts was on TV and said Ali was wired.. He said Ali didn't listen to the referee because he was under an illusion that he was the God of Boxing...

Methamphetamine vastly increases the amount of the natural chemical dopamine in the brain... Users can be under the illusion that they can do anything.. They feel super powerful, omnipotent, and euphoric... If they have a daring personality, they might jump off a building because they're convinced they can fly, or that they will land softly like a cat.. The emotion of fear is blocked.. But if Ali was high on a drug it would be something more expensive than meth.

The truth is much simpler... Ali landed a sharp right counter... Liston was surprised by the punch and dropped.. Since Ali didn't go to a neutral corner, and Liston wasn't getting a count, Sonny knew the count would be delayed.. He saw Ali running at him from behind so he dropped down rather than take a blast to the head. When Liston got up he slipped and ducked every punch Ali threw as if he was trying to set Ali up for a killer punch.

Before the fight, Liston told reporters that he was working a secret plan to win the fight very quickly.... The only thing I can think of is, Sonny wanted Ali to think he was hurt and to attack recklessly - setting Ali up for massive killer counters... Liston was one of the greatest punchers in the History of Boxing... I would be a workable plan.

[APerno]

Methamphetamine vastly increases the amount of the natural chemical dopamine in the brain... Users can be under the illusion that they can do anything.. They feel super powerful, omnipotent, and euphoric...

No it doesn't.

It takes away your inhibitions and anxiety (and does create some sense of euphoria,) but it doesn't make you feel omnipotent or super powerful. It affects you more like an extreme beta blocker than it does as a stimulant.

The euphoria your speak of comes from a relaxation brought about by indifference. You tend to lose the ability to recognize consequences.

But the recklessness it creates isn't brought on by feeling omnipotent, poor judgement alone is enough to get you there.

In the end you wouldn't want to fight anyone anyway and you certainly wouldn't want to train; it is not like cocaine.

Now you're ducking my question: what happened to Clay's eyes in Miami? I have never seen that happen in a fight before or since. (I was only nine at the time, so make that mainly "since.")

[funso banjo baby]

Two of the best of all time.

I remember one of the big American mags of the day published a long pullout poster with colour stills of the punch. made it very clear what happened.

Liston's flopping about after is just one of those odd things. but then nothing is odder than Berbick's flopping against Tyson. That punch was the softest Tyson ever threw.

the biggest joke of the Ali-Liston fight was Jersey Joe's reffing

which reminds me the footage of Marciano v Walcott 2 KO is a bit wiffy

[SenorPipino]

There's a view that whatever substance was being rubbed on Liston's shoulder (monsel's solution?) got on his gloves and eventually wiped off on Ali's forehead or shoulders.

The film of the fight doesn't show Ali having any trouble with his eyes as he heads to the corner after the 4th round.

It isn't until we see Dundee working on Ali between rounds that we notice that Ali is grimacing and blinking furiously.

There's the theory that while Dundee was toweling Ali down, he unwittingly wiped the substance off and rubbed it into Ali's eyes.

Dundee would later say that he never believed that Liston or his cornermen purposely tried to blind Ali.

Yet years later Liston cutman Joe Polino confessed to a writer that he smeared Liston's gloves with the stinging solution on Sonny's orders.

Was he telling the truth or just telling tales? Both Polino and Liston are in their graves so we'll never really know.

Fortunately the rematch in Lewiston put an end to all the controversy.

[oogiebe]

This just in:

Wilt Chamberlain could not play chess worth a damn.

Which would directly impact his ability to be a good fisherman.

LMFAO!!!! Perfect! Just as relevant as the rest! You are the king!

[APerno]

HELL NO.... Ali was a weak hitter... Especially compared to ATG puncher Sonny Liston...

The way Ali was attacking recklessly there was a VERY good chance he'd run into a KO shot.... We don't know.

And Ali could easily have been DISQUALIFIED for repeatedly defying the referee... I've NEVER seen ANYONE else get away with repeatedly refusing to go to a neutral corner.... HAVE YOU????? Don't ignore this question like you always do.

That's the CRIME of this thing... Liston abides by all the rules and gets sanctioned... Ali throws away the rule book and skates away free... What kind of Bizarro World are we living in??? Like I said....life isn't fair and there's never been a better example of that fact than the actions of the Maine Boxing Commission and their colleagues across he US.

Sanctions were not picked up by foreign boxing commissions who pointed out the neutral corner rule was in effect.

If I was ignoring a question is was probably because I thought you were asking it rhetorically.

Um? I would say throughout his career Ali got way with much, maybe more than any other modern era fighter, e.g. I always thought Ali hooking Frazier's head and pulling him into his chest for 12 rounds( Ali-Frazier II) was an extremely unfair night; a night of favoritism.

But all that came later and may not apply here. At this time he was Cassius X and not the socially important/romanticize/world renowned/Black icon yet. It would have been easy for any ref to have disqualified Cassius X and not have it be a career ending event; at that time half the population at least would have cheered any ref who stood up to him. Which makes me think the refs didn't consider his behavior to be of DQ level.

Anyway all that (of course) is irrelevant because Walcott was never really in control. They shouldn't have put an ex fighter in there with Cassius Clay it encouraged his bad behavior. They should have used a named ref with a reputation, then 'Clay' would have been less likely to risk being DQed.

Just the other day I was watching the Bonavena fight again and I was very impressed with Ali 15th round power.

Ali had already made Liston RTD over six rounds, and there are two rules of thumb (conventional wisdom) that suggest he would do it again, but quicker.

Rule 1: Fighters tend to get better after they win a championship (Angelo Dundee)
Rule 2: A fighter who loses by KO in a big fight will usually lose the rematch quicker. (history)

Yea, I say Ali stops him inside of six rounds.

The highlighted quote is extremely interesting. However.

In fact, Clay was initially refused entry to the Nation of Islam (often called the Black Muslims at the time) due to his boxing career. However, after he won the championship from Liston in 1964, the Nation of Islam was more receptive and agreed to publicize his membership.[111] Shortly afterwards on March 6, Elijah Muhammad gave a radio address that Clay would be renamed Muhammad (one who is worthy of praise) Ali (most high).

The so called " phantom punch " fight occured on May 25th 1965, by which time he was indeed known as Muhammad Ali.

Yes but lets say 'officially' or technically' (not sure how to say it) he had become Muhammad Ali but most of the country was unaware of it or wasn't taking it seriously. You feel that a referee would have been, at that time, apprehensive about disqualifying Clay because of his social or political stature? I feel he didn't yet hold that kind of clout. Although I do believe he did eventually become so 'important' that DQing him would have become career ending for any referee.

Not directly related but this poster always annoyed me a little; this many years later and he still couldn't get his 'name' top billing. If you glance at this poster it becomes a 'Clay-Frazier' fight not Ali-Frazier. The man fought a long uphill battle to get people to say his name.

[APerno]

If one wanted to be charitable, one could say that due to Kolon's ( alleged ) age he might have eyesight problems. However the fool is a pathological liar, a fantasist, and a Walter Mitty of the lowest order.

When the so called " fight " resumed Ali threw a dozen+ shots at Liston, 5 of which landed, and Liston made NO attempt to throw ANYTHING back until Walcott got between them and informed them the fight had already been stopped.

Bottom line, Liston quit like a dog. He took that one good shot he didn't see coming, went down and wanted NO part of it.

I want to take an opportunity to agree: LISTON QUIT! - That's how I always saw it; a classic moment of looking for a 'soft spot to lay down' -- But Walcott screwed everything up and he had to get up (reluctantly.)

[Kalan]

Recklessness [meth] creates isn't brought on by feeling omnipotent, poor judgement alone is enough to get you there.

In the end you wouldn't want to fight anyone anyway and you certainly wouldn't want to train; it is not like cocaine.

Now you're ducking my question: what happened to Clay's eyes in Miami? I have never seen that happen in a fight before or since. (I was only nine at the time, so make that mainly "since.")

I drove over 100 miles to see the fight at the nearest closed-circuit location with a friend of mine who lived 15 minutes from the theater. The place was half empty. When they showed Liston's face on the screen my bud yelled "YOU UGLY DOG" louder than anybody with a microphone. The whole auditorium turned and looked at him like "Who's that?" He was a side show with his loud cheering... His wife refused to come cuz "He's too loud."

The whole fight was run like a joke... They announced the time as 1 minute into the first round... Everyone knew 1 minute was total bullcrap... They must have gotten that from the timekeeper and it was like NOBODY supervising the fight had ever done a Boxing event... It wasn't the Keystone Kops it was Alfalfa, Spanky, and the gang.

I never tried meth, but when I was a teen I tried pot and cocaine a few times... I never got a damned thing from either of them so never got into the drug scene..

Whatever happened to Ali's eyes it had no baring on the fight.. Liston had nothing to do with it.. Liston's shoulder and biceps injuries were the deciding factors in their first fight.. But even with that the fight was even.. Ali loved to over dramatize everything.. He was a showman at heart.. He'd take the slightest thing and run it up a flagpole.. If there were a little tiny sting in his eyes he'd make it seem like the world was ending.. We all know people who are constantly in crisis.. Their friends don't get too excited about the latest earth-shattering event that just happened to them.

[APerno]

Recklessness [meth] creates isn't brought on by feeling omnipotent, poor judgement alone is enough to get you there.

In the end you wouldn't want to fight anyone anyway and you certainly wouldn't want to train; it is not like cocaine.

Now you're ducking my question: what happened to Clay's eyes in Miami? I have never seen that happen in a fight before or since. (I was only nine at the time, so make that mainly "since.")

I drove over 100 miles to see the fight at the nearest closed-circuit location with a friend of mine who lived 15 minutes from the theater. The place was half empty. When they showed Liston's face on the screen my bud yelled "YOU UGLY DOG" louder than anybody with a microphone. The whole auditorium turned and looked at him like "Who's that?" He was a side show with his loud cheering... His wife refused to come cuz "He's too loud."

The whole fight was run like a joke... They announced the time as 1 minute into the first round... Everyone knew 1 minute was total bullcrap... They must have gotten that from the timekeeper and it was like NOBODY supervising the fight had ever done a Boxing event... It wasn't the Keystone Kops it was Alfalfa, Spanky, and the gang.

I never tried meth, but when I was a teen I tried pot and cocaine a few times... I never got a damned thing from either of them so never got into the drug scene..

Whatever happened to Ali's eyes it had no baring on the fight.. Liston had nothing to do with it.. Liston's shoulder and biceps injuries were the deciding factors in their first fight.. But even with that the fight was even.. Ali loved to over dramatize everything.. He was a showman at heart.. He'd take the slightest thing and run it up a flagpole.. If there were a little tiny sting in his eyes he'd make it seem like the world was ending.. We all know people who are constantly in crisis.. Their friends don't get too excited about the latest earth-shattering event that just happened to them.

OK thanks for replying -- I had stated earlier that I never heard of such a thing again, but then I found this (it is not directly related but interesting):

ROBERT BROWN:
In 1996 [SIC], you faced Evander Holyfield. At the start of round 3 you complained that something was burning your eyes, and in round 5 the fight was stopped because you could no longer see. Do you think Evander or his corner were using a foreign substance in that fight?

BOBBY CZYZ:
I know for a fact many years later that he did use a foreign substance. I found out from the state police in New Jersey that it was a mixture of Tabasco sauce and something else, I don’t know what else, and they’re not sure.

I had certified paperwork from eye surgeons and facial plastic surgeons that exfoliating agents were used on my cornea. My vision went from 20/15 in both eyes to 20/45 within a week, and all the skin peeled off my face after the fight. I know something was used, I don’t know exactly what.

P.S. It also interesting that it references the red skin and peeling you spoke of.

[oogiebe]

If one wanted to be charitable, one could say that due to Kolon's ( alleged ) age he might have eyesight problems. However the fool is a pathological liar, a fantasist, and a Walter Mitty of the lowest order.

When the so called " fight " resumed Ali threw a dozen+ shots at Liston, 5 of which landed, and Liston made NO attempt to throw ANYTHING back until Walcott got between them and informed them the fight had already been stopped.

Bottom line, Liston quit like a dog. He took that one good shot he didn't see coming, went down and wanted NO part of it.

I want to take an opportunity to agree: LISTON QUIT! - That's how I always saw it; a classic moment of looking for a 'soft spot to lay down' -- But Walcott screwed everything up and he had to get up (reluctantly.)

I totally agree with this post and in fact your one above. I was being somewhat pedantic when referring to the FACT the guy was officially known as Muhammad Ali after March 64. The fact that the predominantly racist press and conservative boxing media still referred to him as Clay, is a shame on them as far as I can see.

As for this post you are completely right. Joe Walcott made a complete bollix of it, but it doesn't alter the reality that Liston only got up reluctantly as you rightly stated, and made NO attempt to throw any punches at Ali. He just tried to cover up and weather the storm, and was grateful when Walcott waved it off.

As stated LISTON QUIT.

I've seen that fight a hundred times. The acting job (Liston Writhing on the canvas) was so bad even Ali screamed at him to get up. The confusion that followed was just as bad. To me, a punch landed on Liston's jaw (Ali called it a screw punch or something) and Liston went down. Seemed to me he wanted out of the auditorium quickly. JMHO. No one will ever know the truth except those involved.

[Kalan]

If one wanted to be charitable, one could say that due to Kolon's ( alleged ) age he might have eyesight problems. However the fool is a pathological liar, a fantasist, and a Walter Mitty of the lowest order.

When the so called " fight " resumed Ali threw a dozen+ shots at Liston, 5 of which landed, and Liston made NO attempt to throw ANYTHING back until Walcott got between them and informed them the fight had already been stopped.

Bottom line, Liston quit like a dog. He took that one good shot he didn't see coming, went down and wanted NO part of it.

I want to take an opportunity to agree: LISTON QUIT! - That's how I always saw it; a classic moment of looking for a 'soft spot to lay down' -- But Walcott screwed everything up and he had to get up (reluctantly.)

NONE of Liston's follow up shots landed... Even Howard Cosell said so when he and Goldstein watched the replay... Cosell was a massive Ali fan but remarked on how Liston's reflexes were in tact and none of the follow shots landed... Old-and-Moldie is a blind idiot who makes things up out of thin air... WHAT 5 punches landed for Ali in the follow up???

And APerno... I want to take this opportunity to say You're reversing everything you've ALREADY admitted to... You admitted Liston got screwed by the officials... You admitted Ali could have been disqualified for failing to go to a neutral corner... You've admitted that Liston got up and resumed the fight... He easily slipped and ducked every follow up punch Ali threw... Why bother with that??? Why not just take one of the light hits and go down???

You're blaming the victim because you don't want to blame your hero.... Liston didn't have to get up... If he INTENDED to quit he would have shaded his eyes from the ring lights and waited for the count to be tolled.

Liston got screwed and there's every chance he would have knocked Ali cold were he allowed to continue... Anything else is total garbage and a complete denial of the events that happened in that ring... Walcott... Fleischer... the timekeeper... and the Boxing Commissioners fukked up... Liston DID NOT QUIT or he WOULDN'T HAVE RESUMED FIGHTING!!!!!

I love how people create the scenario they want instead of looking at the evidence... There are still people who were involved with Hurricane Carter's conviction who swear he was guilty -- though the evidence shows he wasn't.

[Kalan]

[Bobby Czyz] I had certified paperwork from eye surgeons and facial plastic surgeons that exfoliating agents were used on my cornea. My vision went from 20/15 in both eyes to 20/45 within a week, and all the skin peeled off my face after the fight. I know something was used, I don’t know exactly what.

P.S. It also interesting that it references the red skin and peeling you spoke of.

Holyfield was in full control of that fight from the opening bell... Evander didn't need to cheat to beat Bobby Czyz... Ev was a massive favorite and Czyz didn't have a chance in Hell of beating him... Bobby Czyz is one of the most full of shitt human beings ever born... I would love to see any pictures of Czyz with "all the skin peeled off" his face.

Czyz was another guy like Ali... He was loaded with bullcrap and his stories just kept getting more bizarre.

[APerno]

And APerno... I want to take this opportunity to say You're reversing everything you've ALREADY admitted to... You admitted Liston got screwed by the officials... You admitted Ali could have been disqualified for failing to go to a neutral corner... You've admitted that Liston got up and resumed the fight... He easily slipped and ducked every follow up punch Ali threw... Why bother with that??? Why not just take one of the light hits and go down???

No, both still stand!

Liston did get screwed, he never got his count, no doubt. The fight should not have been stooped when it was. I change nothing here.

But if Ali had gone to a neutral corner, and Walcott had counted, I have always believed, and sill do believe, Liston would have taken the count.

The two opinions don't contradict.

[Kalan]

And APerno... I want to take this opportunity to say You're reversing everything you've ALREADY admitted to... You admitted Liston got screwed by the officials... You admitted Ali could have been disqualified for failing to go to a neutral corner... You've admitted that Liston got up and resumed the fight... He easily slipped and ducked every follow up punch Ali threw... Why bother with that??? Why not just take one of the light hits and go down???

No, both still stand!

Liston did get screwed, he never got his count, no doubt. The fight should not have been stooped when it was. I change nothing here.

But if Ali had gone to a neutral corner, and Walcott had counted, I have always believed, and sill do believe, Liston would have taken the count.

The two opinions don't contradict.

YES they do... If Liston intended to take the count he would never have started to get up fairly quickly... He saw Ali running at him and he didn't want to get punched in the head from behind so he went down again... He KNEW he had time to get up according to the neutral corner rule... When he got up and resumed fighting, Ali, Walcott, and Liston all thought the fight was still on... If he wanted to lose, he would simply stay down until the referee ruled him out.

He wouldn't say, "Gee whiz, the referee isn't counting... I'll have to get up and keep fighting and fake a KO in the 3rd."

There's NO evidence of the thoughts you are putting in Liston's brain... He's the blameless victim of a debacle.

[APerno]

He wouldn't say, "Gee whiz, the referee isn't counting... I'll have to get up and keep fighting and fake a KO in the 3rd."

That is pretty much what I am saying.

Bonavena was in the same situation as Liston, Ali wouldn't go to a neutral corner and Bonavena was worried that he was going to be ambushed. It happens twice in the 15th, but with both knockdowns Bonavena instinctively jumps to his feet and then becomes concerned about Ali, walking away from him, trying to put the ref between himself and Ali. Bonavena's actions look instinctive, normal, in a situation that is almost identical to Liston's (regarding Ali's behavior not the ref).

Liston on the other hand first goes down on his hands and then rolls over on to his back with his arms stretched out. Then he rolls on to his stomach and buries face in his arms. It was in that position where Liston intended to end the fight; be counted out.

But Ali won't let that happen.

You then see Liston peak out and realize Walcott isn't counting and instinctively begin to stand up, only to see Walcott moving back towards him, possibly ready to begin a count, so he goes back down. But LOL Ali once again makes it impossible for Walcott to count so Liston again, for a second time reluctantly rises.

Yea, Liston was pulling a Walcott (Walcott-Marciano II) he was going home early with a nice paycheck.

What you see, what I see . . .eh!

[Kalan]

He wouldn't say, "Gee whiz, the referee isn't counting... I'll have to get up and keep fighting and fake a KO in the 3rd."

That is pretty much what I am saying.

Bonavena was in the same situation as Liston, Ali wouldn't go to a neutral corner and Bonavena was worried that he was going to be ambushed. It happens twice in the 15th, but with both knockdowns Bonavena instinctively jumps to his feet and then becomes concerned about Ali, walking away from him, trying to put the ref between himself and Ali. Bonavena's actions look instinctive, normal, in a situation that is almost identical to Liston's (regarding Ali's behavior not the ref).

Liston on the other hand first goes down on his hands and then rolls over on to his back with his arms stretched out. Then he rolls on to his stomach and buries face in his arms. It was in that position where Liston intended to end the fight; be counted out.

But Ali won't let that happen.

You then see Liston peak out and realize Walcott isn't counting and instinctively begin to stand up, only to see Walcott moving back towards him, possibly ready to begin a count, so he goes back down. But LOL Ali once again makes it impossible for Walcott to count so Liston again, for a second time reluctantly rises.

You're do

Yea, Liston was pulling a Walcott (Walcott-Marciano II) he was going home early with a nice paycheck.

What you see, what I see . . .eh!

You're like the Warren Commission... You're straining to make your narrative fit predetermined conclusions... Liston fell back because Ali was running towards him while he was supposed to be in a neutral corner.

If I'm the referee in Ali-Bonavena, I DQ Ali... NOT because Ali defied me... Because he intentionally struck me.

Ali defied the neutral corner for the mandatory 8 counts... But I've NEVER seen another boxer strike a referee on the arm as the ref tried to enforce the neutral corner rule... The referee put his hand on Ali's chest to keep him back... Ali not only defiantly walked through the referee, Ali STRUCK the official on his arm to knock his arm away while the ref tried to enforce the neutral corner rule...The referee was a frightened little man, afraid to make Ali obey the rules.

Bonavena did not get clean 8-counts because Ali was in his face, walking him down... Bonavena walked away from Ali because he was SUPPOSED to getting unmolested 8-counts... Ali was SUPPOSED to be in a neutral corner.

It was DIFFERENT with Liston... When Liston got up Ali WASN'T in a neutral corner like he was supposed to be... BUT Ali DIDN'T walk straight through Walcott into Liston... The referee rubbed his gloves off and was looking at Nat Fleischer screaming at him... Ali stayed back a few feet and didn't move in til Walcott was out of the way.

The fights were different... When Walcott went to see what the screaming was all about Ali attacked Liston unsuccessfully, missing all his punches... Bonavena was completely gone... A wide open target Ali couldn't miss

Walking home with a nice paycheck makes no sense either... The Heavyweight Championship is worth more than one paycheck... There was no reason for Liston to give it up since he wasn't hurt and he had trained hard for months.

[APerno]

He wouldn't say, "Gee whiz, the referee isn't counting... I'll have to get up and keep fighting and fake a KO in the 3rd."

That is pretty much what I am saying.

Bonavena was in the same situation as Liston, Ali wouldn't go to a neutral corner and Bonavena was worried that he was going to be ambushed. It happens twice in the 15th, but with both knockdowns Bonavena instinctively jumps to his feet and then becomes concerned about Ali, walking away from him, trying to put the ref between himself and Ali. Bonavena's actions look instinctive, normal, in a situation that is almost identical to Liston's (regarding Ali's behavior not the ref).

Liston on the other hand first goes down on his hands and then rolls over on to his back with his arms stretched out. Then he rolls on to his stomach and buries face in his arms. It was in that position where Liston intended to end the fight; be counted out.

But Ali won't let that happen.

You then see Liston peak out and realize Walcott isn't counting and instinctively begin to stand up, only to see Walcott moving back towards him, possibly ready to begin a count, so he goes back down. But LOL Ali once again makes it impossible for Walcott to count so Liston again, for a second time reluctantly rises.

You're do

Yea, Liston was pulling a Walcott (Walcott-Marciano II) he was going home early with a nice paycheck.

What you see, what I see . . .eh!

You're like the Warren Commission... You're straining to make your narrative fit predetermined conclusions... Liston fell back because Ali was running towards him while he was supposed to be in a neutral corner.

If I'm the referee in Ali-Bonavena, I DQ Ali... NOT because Ali defied me... Because he intentionally struck me.

Ali defied the neutral corner for the mandatory 8 counts... But I've NEVER seen another boxer strike a referee on the arm as the ref tried to enforce the neutral corner rule... The referee put his hand on Ali's chest to keep him back... Ali not only defiantly walked through the referee, Ali STRUCK the official on his arm to knock his arm away while the ref tried to enforce the neutral corner rule...The referee was a frightened little man, afraid to make Ali obey the rules.

Bonavena did not get clean 8-counts because Ali was in his face, walking him down... Bonavena walked away from Ali because he was SUPPOSED to getting unmolested 8-counts... Ali was SUPPOSED to be in a neutral corner.

It was DIFFERENT with Liston... When Liston got up Ali WASN'T in a neutral corner like he was supposed to be... BUT Ali DIDN'T walk straight through Walcott into Liston... The referee rubbed his gloves off and was looking at Nat Fleischer screaming at him... Ali stayed back a few feet and didn't move in til Walcott was out of the way.

The fights were different... When Walcott went to see what the screaming was all about Ali attacked Liston unsuccessfully, missing all his punches... Bonavena was completely gone... A wide open target Ali couldn't miss

Walking home with a nice paycheck makes no sense either... The Heavyweight Championship is worth more than one paycheck... There was no reason for Liston to give it up since he wasn't hurt and he had trained hard for months.

Well, I definitely agree about Ali pushing off the ref in the Bonavena fight, I saw that as well. I must admit I was a bit shocked that the ref didn't react to it. But by the time of Bonavena Ali had indeed become that 'important' political icon and DQing him in the 15th round of one of his much anticipated comeback fights (before Ali--Frazier I) would have been a tough act for any ref to pull off.

Then again I suppose if he had DQed Ali, the Ali-Frazier fight would have gone on anyway; but I can understand why a ref would be intimidated.

[oogiebe]

My dad used to scream during every second of Ali fights about the ref's letting him get away with holding behind the head. It really was ridiculous. "how do they always let him get away with that" with his hand shaking at the TV.

[APerno]

Whenever an opponent would begin to get any kind of rhythm going Ali would grab his head and pull him into his chest, stopping the action. He was most egregious in the second Frazier fight.

[Kalan]

Well, I definitely agree about Ali pushing off the ref in the Bonavena fight, I saw that as well. I must admit I was a bit shocked that the ref didn't react to it. But by the time of Bonavena Ali had indeed become that 'important' political icon and DQing him in the 15th round of one of his much anticipated comeback fights (before Ali--Frazier I) would have been a tough act for any ref to pull off.

Then again I suppose if he had DQed Ali, the Ali-Frazier fight would have gone on anyway; but I can understand why a ref would be intimidated.

My dad used to scream during every second of Ali fights about the ref's letting him get away with holding behind the head. It really was ridiculous. "how do they always let him get away with that" with his hand shaking at the TV.

I don't care WHO it is... You don't get to throw out the rule book because you're famous or a VIP...

I can understand your dad shaking his fist at the TV and screaming.. I've almost jumped into the ring when it wasn't my fighter being mistreated.. If I'm sitting at ringside I'll yell my ass off.. I've left my seat to dress down a referee between rounds.

It's not that Ali was walked through the referee...I've seen that before... Ali hacked the referee's forearm like, "Don't put your filthy paw on me you punk piece of shitt" and the referee didn't react??? .... You can't disrespect officials like that in any sport but Boxing and get away with it... We have no governing body so you have to make things right yourself.

If I'm Bonavena's chief 2nd I'm in that ring punching Ali in the face.. I wouldn't care if I got fined, banned, or jailed.. Bonavena already lost the fight with the 1st knockdown... He's hurt real bad.. He's done.. Ali is way ahead.. He doesn't need a KO.. If Ali went to a neutral corner Bonavena won't survive anyway.. I remember watching the fight and thinking Ali should be DQ'd... But I wasn't angry at all....until the arm hack.. It's like a line he crossed.. Outrageous disrespect.

[Kalan]

This just in:

Wilt Chamberlain could not play chess worth a damn.

Which would directly impact his ability to be a good fisherman.

You're full of shitt... Which directly effects your ability to post intelligent comments.

Wilt was actually pretty good at chess according to Jimmy Brown... who offered to manage Chamberlain for free in the run up to the Ali fight... Brown was very excited about the matchup... Chamberlain was more interested in Cus D'Amato and other Boxing professionals who had a record of getting things accomplished for fighters in the Heavyweight Division... He wanted trainers who could teach him the sophisticated aspects of Boxing, and converting his massive physical assets and athletic talents into destroying Ali and winning the Heavyweight Championship.

Ali hired a legal team to negotiate a contract to fight Chamberlain... Wilt did as well.... A contract was negotiated and drawn up... Ali and Chamberlain agreed to promote their fight in a number of cities and do TV appearances... But when Ali saw how serious Chamberlain was about lining up Boxing people he got cold feet and never signed the contract... He started making excuses..."I accept your challenge....AFTER I fight a few more contenders....IF I beat THEM" .... Wilt asked Ali how long it was going to take HIM to sign the contract....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s ....

FOREVER and EVER apparently..

[ewenhay]

From memory of watching this previously I think Liston threw 17 punches in total and none of them landed.

Whilst the refereeing is diabolical and I agree that the fight should have been allowed to continue, Liston was getting beat up and more than likely would have been put down again and stopped. There was no ingenious game plan going on there, it was merely survival.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Termed a phantom punch due to the obscured quickness in Liston going down. This a few years before nfl producers introduced instant replay into broadcasts, but not even concise slowmo can quell the soiling of the village idiots.

The best examination of the fight orchestrated by Cosell the next sports broadcast where they had all the real time and slow footage.

Since the first and second fights always get lumped together because mob fighter Liston QUIT:

1. First fight almost canceled when insiders found out Ali had gone NOI. Back then most every corner used linaments and getting that and grease punched into eyes not that uncommon. Some fighters had dirty tricks and Listons was reputedly loading his gloves. Anyone thinks a mob fighter is going to quit without an order from the mob is hopeless and should be ignored.

Liston widely pilloried and Ali stripped by WBA before Liston 2. So boxing was, is, and shall forever be a stinking sport. For the 2nd the Venue relocated to remote Lewiston to mitigate NOI assassins who were isolated with no public base to operate from. Ernie Terrell tells of a dozen NOI marching into his room silently to rearrange hotel furniture, so caught between the mob and NOI, Liston feared for his life and died dubiously weeks before his 2nd appeared before the US Congress.

I don't recall an Ali fight where he didn't violate the neutral corner rule, and it's gold standard that Walcott and fleischer botched everything.

Dempsey and Marciano were on the Cosell panel with access to the footage and I think Dempsey was at the fight. He said the punch had no leverage though he conceded that that a surprise punch could be enough to down him. Marciano conceded circumstances were murky and no real conclusion can be drawn.

Having practiced that supposed Step'nFetchit Anchor punch dozens of times, pullin off balance moving backwards to avoid Liston' left hook, a quick non leveraged downward counter can be delivered to catch the temple of the now off balanced Liston. Then we have the rest of boxing's stink that followed.

R.I.P.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Termed a phantom punch due to the obscured quickness in Liston going down. This a few years before nfl producers introduced instant replay into broadcasts, but not even concise slowmo can quell the soiling of the village idiots.

The best examination of the fight orchestrated by Cosell the next sports broadcast where they had all the real time and slow footage.

Since the first and second fights always get lumped together because mob fighter Liston QUIT:

1. First fight almost canceled when insiders found out Ali had gone NOI. Back then most every corner used linaments and getting that and grease punched into eyes not that uncommon. Some fighters had dirty tricks and Listons was reputedly loading his gloves. Anyone thinks a mob fighter is going to quit without an order from the mob is hopeless and should be ignored.

Liston widely pilloried and Ali stripped by WBA before Liston 2. So boxing was, is, and shall forever be a stinking sport. For the 2nd the Venue relocated to remote Lewiston to mitigate NOI assassins who were isolated with no public base to operate from. Ernie Terrell tells of a dozen NOI marching into his room silently to rearrange hotel furniture, so caught between the mob and NOI, Liston feared for his life and died dubiously weeks before his 2nd appeared before the US Congress.

I don't recall an Ali fight where he didn't violate the neutral corner rule, and it's gold standard that Walcott and fleischer botched everything.

Dempsey and Marciano were on the Cosell panel with access to the footage and I think Dempsey was at the fight. He said the punch had no leverage though he conceded that that a surprise punch could be enough to down him. Marciano conceded circumstances were murky and no real conclusion can be drawn.

Having practiced that supposed Step'nFetchit Anchor punch dozens of times, pullin off balance moving backwards to avoid Liston' left hook, a quick non leveraged downward counter can be delivered to catch the temple of the now off balanced Liston. Then we have the rest of boxing's stink that followed.

R.I.P.