SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[oogiebe]

Yes, Joshua failed to stop a guy who has never been stopped or dropped as a pro thus far. You think this is somehow a knock on Joshua?

You have clearly misinterpreted my reply to Kolon's idiotic post. Far from knocking Joshua, I give Parker credit. MORONS try to claim it was the ref who hindered Joshua, thus rendering him incapable of scoring the " expected " KO.

You're not really allowed to point out any flaws in Joshua on here at the moment. Many people here want to anoint him as an ATG and don't want to hear of his inadequacies.

LMAO! True!

[Kalan]

Yes, Joshua failed to stop a guy who has never been stopped or dropped as a pro thus far. You think this is somehow a knock on Joshua?

You have clearly misinterpreted my reply to Kolon's idiotic post. Far from knocking Joshua, I give Parker credit. MORONS try to claim it was the ref who hindered Joshua, thus rendering him incapable of scoring the " expected " KO.

You're not really allowed to point out any flaws in Joshua on here at the moment. Many people here want to anoint him as an ATG and don't want to hear of his inadequacies.

AJ doesn't have any glaring inadequacies like previous ATG's... All of his skills are adequate to great... He has many areas to improve on. He won’t sit on his laurels like Ali, Frazier, Dempsey, Louis, Patterson, Marciano, and many others who failed to keep improving their offensive and defensive skill sets into their 30’s and throughout their careers.

Joshua isn’t satisfied with where he’s at right now. He doesn’t get fat between fights like Lewis, Ali, Foreman, Bowe, Tyson, Douglas, Fury, Marciano, Frazier and many others did. He doesn’t line up 5 or 6 sparring partners. He brings in a dozen or more. He always has a fresh guy to test his stamina and give him different looks.

Ali and Wladimir Klitschko had no body attack or inside games. This led to a lot of clinching and holding, restricting the flow of action in their fights. Joshua is also very tall with a long reach, but instead of excessive clinching and slowing down the action in his fights, he works on his body attack and inside games daily.

Dempsey, Louis, Ali, Liston, Patterson, Marciano, Frazier, Foreman, Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield, and other ATG’s had big defensive liabilities you could drive a truck through. That could get them shittcanned against the wrong opponent. Joshua doesn’t have those kinds of gaping holes in his defense.

Tunney, Johnson, Ali, Holmes, and other Heavyweight Champions lacked big-time firepower... If they fought the wrong style they would get run over... Frazier walked right through 29-year-old Ali and the much stronger Tyson ran over Holmes. Guys who were bigger, taller, stronger, faster, and more skillful reduced Mike Tyson to a punching bag.

Lewis and Bowe were dirty fighters. Ali sometimes threw out the rule book. Joshua doesn’t have to resort to dirty tactics to win fights. He doesn’t believe in cheating, even if he could easily get away with it. He’s a straight shooter.

[Cojimar 1946]

Joshua has already managed more title defenses than Foreman and some people see Foreman as an ATG athough I don't personally feel that way. I suppose it depends on your criteria for greatness.

[MrGuy]

So just to clear things up guys. It was the ITALIAN REFEREES fault that Joshua couldn't knock out some guy who in 24 fights had only ever fought outside of New Zealand 5 times.

[MrGuy]

He would get knocked cold if he did... Bowe avoided punchers like the plague -- and for good reason... Joshua wasn't tentative. The referee destroyed the fight. They'll probably fight again in the next 2 or 3 years... It should be better with a referee who isn't giving lectures every 15 seconds... I never saw that jerkoff before.

Parker isn't exactly a big puncher is he?

[Kalan]

He's a real good power hitter... He took out Alexander Dimitrenko faster than anyone else....his 2nd stoppage loss... Since then Parker has been matched with some very rugged guys... Collectively they have 1 stoppage loss in 92 fights.

Obviously you want that... You want to fight guys who can hang in there and give you a lot of hard rounds.

[Cojimar 1946]

Parker does not seem to be a huge hitter based on recent fights so it's not clear if Bowe's chin would be a problem. I think he would have a good shot at outboxing Ruddock though.

[Cojimar 1946]

Of the last four eras I think the Povetkin era was the worst.

[Kalan]

Povetkin "ERA?" .... I doubt anyone from the 22nd Century will refer to any time slot as the "Povetkin era."

If we could eavesdrop on the future... They'd refer to the Klitschko era which was followed by the Joshua era...

Era's were: Sullivan... Jeffries... Johnson... Dempsey... Louis... Marciano... Patterson... Ali... Holmes...Tyson... Lewis... Klitschko's... and Joshua.... There were great Heavyweights like Tunney... Liston... Foreman,,, Holyfield... Povetkin... Ortiz and Wilder - some of whom were the best Heavyweights of their time... They didn't reign long enough or make a big enough impression on the public to be the most noted Heavyweight of their time... There was no "Schmeling era" so there were gaps.

I may be speaking too soon because this era hasn't been sorted out yet... But Joshua looks like "The Man" right now.

[ewenhay]

Povetkin "ERA?" .... I doubt anyone from the 22nd Century will refer to any time slot as the "Povetkin era."

If we could eavesdrop on the future... They'd refer to the Klitschko era which was followed by the Joshua era...

Era's were: Sullivan... Jeffries... Johnson... Dempsey... Louis... Marciano... Patterson... Ali... Holmes...Tyson... Lewis... Klitschko's... and Joshua.... There were great Heavyweights like Tunney... Liston... Foreman,,, Holyfield... Povetkin... Ortiz and Wilder - some of whom were the best Heavyweights of their time... They didn't reign long enough or make a big enough impression on the public to be the most noted Heavyweight of their time... There was no "Schmeling era" so there were gaps.

I may be speaking too soon because this era hasn't been sorted out yet... But Joshua looks like "The Man" right now.

Excellent post! Has your account been hacked?

[Kalan]

Povetkin "ERA?" .... I doubt anyone from the 22nd Century will refer to any time slot as the "Povetkin era."

If we could eavesdrop on the future... They'd refer to the Klitschko era which was followed by the Joshua era...

Era's were: Sullivan... Jeffries... Johnson... Dempsey... Louis... Marciano... Patterson... Ali... Holmes...Tyson... Lewis... Klitschko's... and Joshua.... There were great Heavyweights like Tunney... Liston... Foreman,,, Holyfield... Povetkin... Ortiz and Wilder - some of whom were the best Heavyweights of their time... They didn't reign long enough or make a big enough impression on the public to be the most noted Heavyweight of their time... There was no "Schmeling era" so there were gaps.

I may be speaking too soon because this era hasn't been sorted out yet... But Joshua looks like "The Man" right now.

Excellent post! Has your account been hacked?

Not at all... You're another Ali fan... or maybe a Robinson fan... or maybe a Henry Armstrong fan...

So am I -- but I'm real about how good they were... They definitely got hit a lot.

[Cojimar 1946]

It doesn't really stick out as an era because the fighters were overshadowed by those of the previous era. What I refer to as the Povetkin era are the guys that are younger than Wladimir but older than Joshua who turned pro from 2000-2008, guys like Povetkin, Haye, Dimitrenko, etc.

[Kalan]

Well... Povetkin is a very important Heavyweight.... But Povetkin, Haye, and Dimitrenko were all beaten by Klitschko -- or by somebody who Klitschko beat... One of History's all time greatest fights was Joshua-Klitschko... That was the changing of the guard that everyone waited for... The new displacing the old and ringing in a new era ... like Klitschko-Fury DIDN'T.

Everyone knew Fury was a fruitball -- and wasn't some great Heavyweight Champion who heralded in a new era.

It's the same feeling we got with Buster Douglas..."Yeah....this kid is good -- but we know he's not the real deal."

[Ambling Alp II]

I would rate the Klitschko, Tua era as follows
1. Wladimir Klitschko
2.Vitali Klitschko
3.Ike Ibeabuchi
4.David Tua
5.Ruslan Chagaev
6.Chris Byrd
7.Nikolai Valuev
8.John Ruiz
9.Tony Thompson
10.Hasim Rahman
11.Oleg Maskaev
12.Jameel McCline

These fighters had a total of 25 fights between themselves. The heavier fighter's record in these fights? 12-12-1 The lighter fighter won just as often. Picking the winner of a fight by going by weight is interesting. It's as effective as the flip a coin method.

[Cojimar 1946]

the difference in this era is that the big heavyweights consistently dominate at the very elite level meaning that smaller men cannot beat the best big men (Vitali, Wladimir, Joshua, etc) even though they can beat some of the big guys. In previous eras that was never the case.

The Povetkin era is the one era recently in which I think a smaller heavyweight was the best of the punch (Povetkin) but he never dominated the division because Klitschko stayed around long enough to prevent him from reaching the top. He still might be the best smaller heavy of recent years even though he failed to face a lot of the best fighters around.

[Kalan]

I hate to break this to Alp -- but 25 is not a statistically significant data sample

According to insurance companies who pay out massive claims for deaths, accidents, and hospitalizations, you need very large data samples and accurate health data to calculate premiums... In presidential election polls for instance, the samples aren't large enough to give you good results... they survey about 1000 voters and have a margin of error plus or minus 5%... The margin or error makes sense because one pollster will have results that differ 10% from another pollster... Garbage in/Garbage out.. You have to trust your data sources to be fair and balanced.. When you have an ax to grind, your data will be tilted toward your bias.

Why is data like this unreliable? Take the following examples.

How big was Mike Tyson??? How big were the guys who beat him??? They were all taller with longer reaches and 4 out of 5 were much bigger... That's 80% bigger ..... But Mike was a little guy - how about Wladimir Klitschko??? How big were the guys who beat him?? Three out of 5 were bigger... That's 60% bigger but a lot of things skew the data like this.

For instance, Joe Louis lost to 2 guys who were smaller and one guy who was the same size... However Louis was a wasted, bloated shell of the prime Joe Louis when he lost to the smaller men... Things such as that skew data very badly.

Nobody has beaten Joshua, Wilder, or Fury to date... Part of the reason is they're so big, tall, and long... There weren't ANY Heavyweights to match their combination of size, height, reach, athleticism, and skill in the entire 20th Century.

A fair question to ask is... Are Heavyweight Champions getting bigger or smaller??? Are football player getting bigger or smaller??? Are Basketball players getting bigger or smaller??? ... The answer is always: BIGGER!!!

[Cojimar 1946]

Joshua has been pretty impressive thus far. He has been more dominant than other fighters generally regarded as great were at similar stages in their career and has yet to lose. He was only close to losing against Klitschko but otherwise has won all his fights by a considerable margin.

[MrGuy]

I hate to break this to Alp -- but 25 is not a statistically significant data sample

According to insurance companies who pay out massive claims for deaths, accidents, and hospitalizations, you need very large data samples and accurate health data to calculate premiums... In presidential election polls for instance, the samples aren't large enough to give you good results... they survey about 1000 voters and have a margin of error plus or minus 5%... The margin or error makes sense because one pollster will have results that differ 10% from another pollster... Garbage in/Garbage out.. You have to trust your data sources to be fair and balanced.. When you have an ax to grind, your data will be tilted toward your bias.

Why is data like this unreliable? Take the following examples.

How big was Mike Tyson??? How big were the guys who beat him??? They were all taller with longer reaches and 4 out of 5 were much bigger... That's 80% bigger ..... But Mike was a little guy - how about Wladimir Klitschko??? How big were the guys who beat him?? Three out of 5 were bigger... That's 60% bigger but a lot of things skew the data like this.

For instance, Joe Louis lost to 2 guys who were smaller and one guy who was the same size... However Louis was a wasted, bloated shell of the prime Joe Louis when he lost to the smaller men... Things such as that skew data very badly.

Nobody has beaten Joshua, Wilder, or Fury to date... Part of the reason is they're so big, tall, and long... There weren't ANY Heavyweights to match their combination of size, height, reach, athleticism, and skill in the entire 20th Century.

A fair question to ask is... Are Heavyweight Champions getting bigger or smaller??? Are football player getting bigger or smaller??? Are Basketball players getting bigger or smaller??? ... The answer is always: BIGGER!!!

And virtually everyone Tyson crushed was bigger than he was. You really think Wilder, Fury, and Joshua are undefeated at this stage in their careers fighting in let's say in the 90s?

[Kalan]

And virtually everyone Tyson crushed was bigger than he was. You really think Wilder, Fury, and Joshua are undefeated at this stage in their careers fighting in let's say in the 90s?

Unless they fought each other... There was certainly nobody there to beat them...

Buster took care of Tyson..... McCall wasted Lewis..... a Cruiserweight battered Bowe (and Bowe ducked every puncher).

You're possibly never going to see those kinds of massive upsets with Joshua and his contemporaries... They paying attention to business with every fight and they don't overlook anybody... Now Fury is different .... He'll probably get his ass beaten in a massive upset of some kind or another... He's a throwback to the 90's... No real heart or discipline.

The big guys Tyson crushed were no good... If they had height, size, reach, skill, speed, and power they beat him.

[Cojimar 1946]

Joshua and Fury would probably do better in the 90s because their size advantage would be even more pronounced. I think the 90s have become overrated over time. Tyson would be given away far more size against Joshua and Tyson than he ever gave away against actual elite opponents. Joshua also appears to be a far heavier puncher than the guys Tyson was facing and is fairly quick.

In the 90s you had guys like Moorer and Douglas win the title not to mention a slow, overweight George Foreman.

[Ambling Alp II]

And there a ton of terrible to mediocre fighters who won WBS titles in the last 10-15 years. And no the weight advantage is not an advantage. Love to see the Buster Douglas that fought Tyson go up against anyone in the last 15 years.

[Ambling Alp II]

the difference in this era is that the big heavyweights consistently dominate at the very elite level meaning that smaller men cannot beat the best big men (Vitali, Wladimir, Joshua, etc) even though they can beat some of the big guys. In previous eras that was never the case.

The Povetkin era is the one era recently in which I think a smaller heavyweight was the best of the punch (Povetkin) but he never dominated the division because Klitschko stayed around long enough to prevent him from reaching the top. He still might be the best smaller heavy of recent years even though he failed to face a lot of the best fighters around.

And the proof that the smaller can't be the bigger men is what? What you are really saying that since there are no heavyweights under 210 now that the heavyweights under 210 must have not been that good. That is simply stupid.

The best we can do is look at how the smaller guys (by modern standards) in the last 15-20 years have done against the bigger guys.

Well in your own ratings of the top 12, I counted every since fight between guys in your own top 12. If your bigger is better theory is really correct, the big guys would have dominated. But they didn't. Bigger guys won 12, smaller guys won 12. One draw.

Guys in the 220s and 230s did just fine against guys in the 230s and up.

Look at Wladimir Klitschko himself. He twice got knocked out by guys in the 220s who were not even consider that good at all going into the fight. Yet both Sanders and Brewster gave him brutal beat downs.
How about Vitaly? He had a a grand total of one fight against someone you had in your top 12. How did he do in that fight? He got beat by a fighter who weighed about 210 (cue the crybaby excuses)

And you still have no answer to how Wilder is constantly beating the really big guys.

The bigger is better theory doesn't hold up in the real world.

[Kalan]

Wilder IS a big guy.... Anybody weighing over 220 is BIG... Wilder beat a middle aged man on high blood pressure meds.. Brewster went 1-1 with Klitschko... Brewster didn't have a chance vs Wladimir after Steward closed up the holes in Klitschko's defense... Lamon lost every round....couldn't land a decent punch, and QUIT!!!

Wladimir had gaping holes in his defense when he was beaten as a youngster... That's terrible coaching, not size.

Joshua will run over Wilder when they meet... He's too big and strong for him.

[oogiebe]

Wilder IS a big guy.... Anybody weighing over 220 is BIG... Wilder beat a middle aged man on high blood pressure meds.. Brewster went 1-1 with Klitschko... Brewster didn't have a chance vs Wladimir after Steward closed up the holes in Klitschko's defense... Lamon lost every round....couldn't land a decent punch, and QUIT!!!

Wladimir had gaping holes in his defense when he was beaten as a youngster... That's terrible coaching, not size.

Joshua will run over Wilder when they meet... He's too big and strong for him.

Honestly Kalan, when Wilder beats Joshua, I'm staying away from here as to not hear any excuses from you.

[MrGuy]

And virtually everyone Tyson crushed was bigger than he was. You really think Wilder, Fury, and Joshua are undefeated at this stage in their careers fighting in let's say in the 90s?

Unless they fought each other... There was certainly nobody there to beat them...

Buster took care of Tyson..... McCall wasted Lewis..... a Cruiserweight battered Bowe (and Bowe ducked every puncher).

You're possibly never going to see those kinds of massive upsets with Joshua and his contemporaries... They paying attention to business with every fight and they don't overlook anybody... Now Fury is different .... He'll probably get his ass beaten in a massive upset of some kind or another... He's a throwback to the 90's... No real heart or discipline.

The big guys Tyson crushed were no good... If they had height, size, reach, skill, speed, and power they beat him.

The point is this decade isn't close to as good as that one. You know how many of those so called bums would be looked upon as being much better these days? I noticed all.that heart in all the Klitschko and Fury clinchfests. They won't get beat because their opponents are Lewis's 90s sparring partners.