SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[MrGuy]

Liston's opponents were mostly cruiserweights. Such wins are not really applicable to today's heavyweights. Liston didn't beat any skilled guys that were 240+ or even 220+ so it's reasonable to question their relevancy in a matchup with a skilled super heavyweight like Joshua.

Good point. On the other hand the vast majority of 230+ fighters historically have been bums. Even today.

[Kalan]

Ermm, exactly how many weeks / months did Liston have to prepare for the UPSTART Clay?

Are we ALL supposed to be so seriouisly FUKKING stupid as to believe Liston didn't bother preparing himself for the Clay fight?

Only the way I remember it, the big, useless, slower than MOLASSES Liston was made to look a fukking idiot by the much quicker, more mobile, and by far and away more intelligent CLAY. Perhaps I am wrong, but I very much doubt it.

Don't waste your breath. He's really not worth it.

Whether or not he is worth it is totally irrelevant. Are people REALLY so stupid that they expect us to believe that a plum like Joshua could actually deal with the speed and movement of the Clay / Ali that fought Liston in Feb 64, or May 65?

I believe the 2nd best Heavyweight EVER is Lennox Lewis, but there is NO chance of him getting near pre exile Ali often enough for him to win. POST exile? Possibly, but a knobhead like Joshua.

Take a closer look at your knobheaded hero Ali... a guy who couldn't pass an IQ test for the military.

Okay lets see... Light Heavyweight Doug Jones rips Clay with big shots and loses a controversial decision...

Next.... a 185-pound waif with 8 losses and tissue paper skin blasts Clay to the canvas with a loaded left hook...

Next... an aging Heavyweight who had a total of 3 shortened rounds in 3 years... holds Clay even through 6... even though he's fighting with a severely injured left shoulder and biceps.

Next... Ali should have been DQ'd for defying a referee's orders to go to a neutral corner. Liston gets robbed.

Next... It takes Ali 12 rounds to stop a severely injured Cruiserweight who Liston smashed out in 2 minutes twice...

Next... Ali is forced to go the distance fighting one of the most hittable Heavyweights ever, who has eleven (11) losses.

Next... Ali fights 3 Cruiserweights over in Europe who Joshua would smash out in 30 seconds each... Ali gets hit with an assortment of left hooks from Cooper before the Brit (now with 11 losses) bleeds to death... Ali gets hit numerous times by Karl Mildenberger a 194-pounder who was one of the clumsiest Title Challengers of all time.

Next... Ali fights a physically challenged man who has bullets in his body after getting shot with a 357 magnum .... and had several feet of his intestines and a kidney removed, and partial paralysis in his right hip and leg.

Next... Ali fights a tall skinny character who's starting a 3-fight losing streak....a beanpole who can't box or punch.

Next... Ali fights a chinny Cruiserweight who's been knocked out 5 times---Including by Light Heavyweight Doug Jones.

That was the 60's Ali who some disoriented individuals think was the greatest... A more mature Ali got beaten 5 times, clobbered, pounded, trounced, stopped, humiliated, battered and beat half to death. Things that will never happen to Joshua because he's a much better boxer and puncher than Ali ever was... :

[APerno]

Liston's opponents were mostly cruiserweights. Such wins are not really applicable to today's heavyweights. Liston didn't beat any skilled guys that were 240+ or even 220+ so it's reasonable to question their relevancy in a matchup with a skilled super heavyweight like Joshua.

Good point. On the other hand the vast majority of 230+ fighters historically have been bums. Even today.

Today we seem to we divide fighters into two groups, professionals and bums.

They're not 'bums.' Some actually have no skills, and never will, others it's true don't put in the time they should (some can't) but only the very few are 'bums,' those who show up with no intention of fighting, trying to steal a paycheck. That's who the term should be reserved for and I have personally paid to see more than a few. (Like the night Camacho decided he wasn't in the mood to fight Boza-Edwards comes to mind. I was screaming bum all night. Paid a $100 for the seat, in 1986. That night Camacho was a bum. )

But most come to fight; as bad as they might be, they give it their all.

The term got popularized because of the press' "bum of the month" rhetoric during Louis' run, but the term is too derogatory a banner to group all the lesser fighters under. I think we need another term.

I personally try not to use the term; most often I call them Tijuana cab drivers.

[Kalan]

I just hope one day you bump into Tommy Hearns. I would pay good money to read he had been arrested for putting you in a McClellan type coma. I would even pay for his defence.

Yeah, like Tommy is ever going to hit a Heavyweight you idiot... Nobody ever put me out... Tommy's been out colder than a mackerel and you’re already in a McClellan like coma you mindless lump of dung... GTFO stink pot.

[HomicideHenry]

Umm.... Tommy Hearns did fight at Cruiserweight for a while.... And there is much documentation that he did spar with Heavyweights from time to time....

[Cojimar 1946]

Joshua has only come close to losing once, against Wladimir Klitschko. In all his other fights he has won comfortably. Regarding Wladimir's supposed glass chin, I don't think he had been dropped since 2005. He seems to have gotten better at protecting his chin and not getting knocked down. He also managed to dominate the division for 9 years and did a pretty good job of cleaning our the division. It's also worth noting that Liston-sized men have not been able to reach the top of the division in more than 20 years.

[Cojimar 1946]

Parker had never been stopped or dropped prior to facing Joshua so he seems pretty durable thus far though only time will tell. Liston failed to stop cruiserweights like Marty Marshall and Bert Whitehurst in his prime, I would say this a bigger indication of lack of power than Joshua not stopping Parker (who is considerably heavier than any top guy Liston ever fought).

[Kalan]

Liston's opponents were mostly cruiserweights. Such wins are not really applicable to today's heavyweights. Liston didn't beat any skilled guys that were 240+ or even 220+ so it's reasonable to question their relevancy in a matchup with a skilled super heavyweight like Joshua.

Good point. On the other hand the vast majority of 230+ fighters historically have been bums. Even today.

Today we seem to we divide fighters into two groups, professionals and bums.

They're not 'bums.' Some actually have no skills, and never will, others it's true don't put in the time they should (some can't) but only the very few are 'bums,' those who show up with no intention of fighting, trying to steal a paycheck. That's who the term should be reserved for and I have personally paid to see more than a few. (Like the night Camacho decided he wasn't in the mood to fight Boza-Edwards comes to mind. I was screaming bum all night. Paid a $100 for the seat, in 1986. That night Camacho was a bum. )

But most come to fight; as bad as they might be, they give it their all.

The term got popularized because of the press' "bum of the month" rhetoric during Louis' run, but the term is too derogatory a banner to group all the lesser fighters under. I think we need another term.

I personally try not to use the term; most often I call them Tijuana cab drivers.

That's probably even more insulting... You're insinuating a fighter needs a day job because he's so bad... At least the "Bums of the Month" were getting World Title Fights.

Boxers are better than they were a generation ago---or 2 or 3 generations ago.... So are Swimmers.... So are Track & Field athletes.... So are skaters.... So are gymnasts.... So are Basketball Players.... So are Football Players.... So are Soccer Players.... So are Tennis Players.... So are Volleyball Players.... So are athletes in almost every popular competitive sport.

The World Records of Mark Spitz, Jesse Owens, Carl Lewis, and other famous athletes fall like 10-pins, because athletes are bigger, stronger, and faster... A few records set by super athletes, such as Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point NBA game, may not be broken for 100 years, but those are exceedingly rare indeed... That's like Babe Ruth's 60 homer season, which many people said would never be broken, but it was smashed twice in a few years...

Many records are difficult to break because you're playing against better athletes... If you're playing against the electronic timer or the measuring tape, those records are easier to break and will fall..

[Cojimar 1946]

I would say Parker was roughly at the same level as Oliver McCall maybe a bit better no legend but a solid top 10 guy.

[Kalan]

McCall had substance abuse problems... And he had myriad mental and emotional problems.. He was a great talent, but he never quite showed it.. He was always worried about one thing or another or one person or another.. He perked up a lot when Emmanuel Steward worked with him, but that was very short lived..

Parker is very solid... He's an extremely even keel guy... Whatever he's got, he's going to get more out of it.

[MrGuy]

Good point. On the other hand the vast majority of 230+ fighters historically have been bums. Even today.

Today we seem to we divide fighters into two groups, professionals and bums.

They're not 'bums.' Some actually have no skills, and never will, others it's true don't put in the time they should (some can't) but only the very few are 'bums,' those who show up with no intention of fighting, trying to steal a paycheck. That's who the term should be reserved for and I have personally paid to see more than a few. (Like the night Camacho decided he wasn't in the mood to fight Boza-Edwards comes to mind. I was screaming bum all night. Paid a $100 for the seat, in 1986. That night Camacho was a bum. )

But most come to fight; as bad as they might be, they give it their all.

The term got popularized because of the press' "bum of the month" rhetoric during Louis' run, but the term is too derogatory a banner to group all the lesser fighters under. I think we need another term.

I personally try not to use the term; most often I call them Tijuana cab drivers.

That's probably even more insulting... You're insinuating a fighter needs a day job because he's so bad... At least the "Bums of the Month" were getting World Title Fights.

Boxers are better than they were a generation ago---or 2 or 3 generations ago.... So are Swimmers.... So are Track & Field athletes.... So are skaters.... So are gymnasts.... So are Basketball Players.... So are Football Players.... So are Soccer Players.... So are Tennis Players.... So are Volleyball Players.... So are athletes in almost every popular competitive sport.

The World Records of Mark Spitz, Jesse Owens, Carl Lewis, and other famous athletes fall like 10-pins, because athletes are bigger, stronger, and faster... A few records set by super athletes, such as Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point NBA game, may not be broken for 100 years, but those are exceedingly rare indeed... That's like Babe Ruth's 60 homer season, which many people said would never be broken, but it was smashed twice in a few years...

Many records are difficult to break because you're playing against better athletes... If you're playing against the electronic timer or the measuring tape, those records are easier to break and will fall..

Comes a point where they don't get better anymore. Name a sport and either the actual surface or equipment used is much better now, or the athletes are juiced. Or both.

[MrGuy]

Joshua has only come close to losing once, against Wladimir Klitschko. In all his other fights he has won comfortably. Regarding Wladimir's supposed glass chin, I don't think he had been dropped since 2005. He seems to have gotten better at protecting his chin and not getting knocked down. He also managed to dominate the division for 9 years and did a pretty good job of cleaning our the division. It's also worth noting that Liston-sized men have not been able to reach the top of the division in more than 20 years.

True about Liston. But those size guys avoid the division now. How many of the top 20-30 guys in the division now, would even look passable against Holyfield, Tyson, or Holmes?

[Kalan]

Joshua has only come close to losing once, against Wladimir Klitschko. In all his other fights he has won comfortably. Regarding Wladimir's supposed glass chin, I don't think he had been dropped since 2005. He seems to have gotten better at protecting his chin and not getting knocked down. He also managed to dominate the division for 9 years and did a pretty good job of cleaning our the division. It's also worth noting that Liston-sized men have not been able to reach the top of the division in more than 20 years.

True about Liston. But those size guys avoid the division now. How many of the top 20-30 guys in the division now, would even look passable against Holyfield, Tyson, or Holmes?

They don't avoid the division... Povetkin, Haye, Byrd, and Chambers all tired to beat Wladimir Klitschko... Fat chance...

The 6'2" X 216 Tomasz Adamek, 44-1, tried to beat Vitali Klitschko... Former Cruiserweight Champion Juan Carlos Gomez also 44-1, tried to beat Vitali Klitschko... They also didn't have a chance... That's at least 6 small Heavyweights in 20 years.

As far as Holyfield, Tyson, and Holmes?... Holyfield lost his trilogy to Punching Bag Bowe.... Tyson got beaten up and knocked out by Big Buster Douglas... And Holmes barely got past Carl "The Truth" Williams... Somebody with Wladimir or Joshua's weapons would bomb Holmes out if the inept Williams gave him what for...

[MrGuy]

Joshua has only come close to losing once, against Wladimir Klitschko. In all his other fights he has won comfortably. Regarding Wladimir's supposed glass chin, I don't think he had been dropped since 2005. He seems to have gotten better at protecting his chin and not getting knocked down. He also managed to dominate the division for 9 years and did a pretty good job of cleaning our the division. It's also worth noting that Liston-sized men have not been able to reach the top of the division in more than 20 years.

True about Liston. But those size guys avoid the division now. How many of the top 20-30 guys in the division now, would even look passable against Holyfield, Tyson, or Holmes?

They don't avoid the division... Povetkin, Haye, Byrd, and Chambers all tired to beat Wladimir Klitschko... Fat chance...

The 6'2" X 216 Tomasz Adamek, 44-1, tried to beat Vitali Klitschko... Former Cruiserweight Champion Juan Carlos Gomez also 44-1, tried to beat Vitali Klitschko... They also didn't have a chance... That's at least 6 small Heavyweights in 20 years.

As far as Holyfield, Tyson, and Holmes?... Holyfield lost his trilogy to Punching Bag Bowe.... Tyson got beaten up and knocked out by Big Buster Douglas... And Holmes barely got past Carl "The Truth" Williams... Somebody with Wladimir or Joshua's weapons would bomb Holmes out if the inept Williams gave him what for...

How many of those listed fighters is in the same zip code as Tyson, Holyfield, or Holmes? Half a dozen average sized heavyweights isn't a good sample size.. With the exception of maybe, and that's being generous, a handful of these large guys over the past two decades, the vast majority of them have been dreadful. I dont see those old guys getting spanked by the guys that clocked Wlad.

[Ambling Alp II]

Joshua has only come close to losing once, against Wladimir Klitschko. In all his other fights he has won comfortably. Regarding Wladimir's supposed glass chin, I don't think he had been dropped since 2005. He seems to have gotten better at protecting his chin and not getting knocked down. He also managed to dominate the division for 9 years and did a pretty good job of cleaning our the division. It's also worth noting that Liston-sized men have not been able to reach the top of the division in more than 20 years.

That Klitschko has not been dropped since 2005 is my point exactly. It is a strong indication division has been terrible for a long time.

In 1998 he got knocked by the legendary Ross Purrity. That was supposed to have been a fluke.
Then in 2003 he got crushed by Corrie Sanders. Sanders was not a contender. He was consider a washed up jke. This was a stunning upset at the time.
Then in 2004 he knocked out again by Lamon Brewster, a virtual unknown.

He almost got stopped by Samuel Peter and was even knocked down by Williamson.

We aren't talking about one bad night. We are talking about three embarrassing losses and another close call.
We aren't talking a bout losses to great or even really good fighters either.
If you back to this time, he was considered a joke at this time.

Then he later wins a WBS title. It looked like it was just a matter of time for someone decent to come along and he would get stopped again. But one came a long. The competition was terrible.
He kept winning and making WBS title defenses against one stiff after another.
Even into his mid 30s he kept beating stiff after stiff..
Even into his late 30s he kept doing it.
He was getting slower, his output was was dropping and clinching his way to victory more and more.
Still nobody decent came along to beat him.

(He got embarrassed twice by guys who weighed 225 and 226. Yet he beat how many guys over 240. Yet more evidence that this weight advantage doesn't mean anything. )

Does this really not register with you? When he was in 20s he got his clocked cleaned multiple times. When he was much older and clearly in decline, he was beating one stiff after another, racking up the WBS title defenses.

Doesn't the thought ever cross your mind that the reason competition this happened is that the division has not been that good for quite some time?

[APerno]

Good point. On the other hand the vast majority of 230+ fighters historically have been bums. Even today.

Today we seem to we divide fighters into two groups, professionals and bums.

They're not 'bums.' Some actually have no skills, and never will, others it's true don't put in the time they should (some can't) but only the very few are 'bums,' those who show up with no intention of fighting, trying to steal a paycheck. That's who the term should be reserved for and I have personally paid to see more than a few. (Like the night Camacho decided he wasn't in the mood to fight Boza-Edwards comes to mind. I was screaming bum all night. Paid a $100 for the seat, in 1986. That night Camacho was a bum. )

But most come to fight; as bad as they might be, they give it their all.

The term got popularized because of the press' "bum of the month" rhetoric during Louis' run, but the term is too derogatory a banner to group all the lesser fighters under. I think we need another term.

I personally try not to use the term; most often I call them Tijuana cab drivers.

Just out of interest ( I neither know or particularly care ) are you saying it is ok to talk of Tijuana cab drivers as lesser beings, as opposed to run of the mill boxers?

Only to be honest I don't see that much difference, both work hard for relative peanuts.

The last line was a joke, I got a kick out of it when I heard Haugen use it. I do feel we should lose the term bum but it is actually difficult to think up another word. Most don't deserve to be called journeyman and the term club fighter has disappeared from our lexicon. But we really shouldn't call them bums (or Tijuana cab drivers.)

[Kalan]

True about Liston. But those size guys avoid the division now. How many of the top 20-30 guys in the division now, would even look passable against Holyfield, Tyson, or Holmes?

They don't avoid the division... Povetkin, Haye, Byrd, and Chambers all tired to beat Wladimir Klitschko... Fat chance...

The 6'2" X 216 Tomasz Adamek, 44-1, tried to beat Vitali Klitschko... Former Cruiserweight Champion Juan Carlos Gomez also 44-1, tried to beat Vitali Klitschko... They also didn't have a chance... That's at least 6 small Heavyweights in 20 years.

As far as Holyfield, Tyson, and Holmes?... Holyfield lost his trilogy to Punching Bag Bowe.... Tyson got beaten up and knocked out by Big Buster Douglas... And Holmes barely got past Carl "The Truth" Williams... Somebody with Wladimir or Joshua's weapons would bomb Holmes out if the inept Williams gave him what for...

How many of those listed fighters is in the same zip code as Tyson, Holyfield, or Holmes? Half a dozen average sized heavyweights isn't a good sample size.. With the exception of maybe, and that's being generous, a handful of these large guys over the past two decades, the vast majority of them have been dreadful. I dont see those old guys getting spanked by the guys that clocked Wlad.

Wlad didn't get spanked for 11 years after a couple years of masterful coaching from Steward... WK was loaded with flaws for his early losses, but he was the best he ever was (technically) for AJ.... Vitali begged his brother to quit after Wlad's 3rd defeat... Wlad told Vitali he was going to be Heavyweight Champion longer than anyone else. Wlad achieved more consecutive years with Title Defenses than any other Heavyweight Champion.

Wlad had a lot more dedication to perfecting his game than anyone since Tunney... Holmes, Tyson, and Holyfield were loaded with flaws FOREVER... An examination of their records shows they were more hittable than the K Bros.

Holmes got beaten twice by a Light Heavyweight.. Larry was almost exterminated by the less than masterful Shavers (who got knocked out 7 X) and Snipes (a ridiculous, pathetic stinker).....

Tyson was smashed from pillar to post in the biggest upset in Fistic History by Douglas - 1 of the chinniest challengers ever..... Then Mike got knocked out and beaten twice by a Cruiserweight and committed the dirtiest fouls of all time with his ear eating... Then Lewis made the little tyke look like a small child who lost his daddy.

If a punch bag like Bowe could floor a peak Holyfield 3 X and beat his flagging ass into the canvas...a peak Wladimir destroys Holy quickly... Even the pathetic John Ruiz knocked Holyfield down and out-boxed him....unbelievable!!. Then an ex-Super-Welterweight came up and boxed the living piss out of the bummish punching bag Ruiz.. Imagine what Jones would have done to Holyfield?? Probably exactly what ex-Middleweight James Toney did for Holy.. Chris Byrd boxed Holy's ass off and Wladimir battered Byrd as he pleased for 19 rounds with nary taking a head shot.

Certainly a peak Povetkin and Haye were better than anybody those 3 hittable hackers beat.

[MrGuy]

They don't avoid the division... Povetkin, Haye, Byrd, and Chambers all tired to beat Wladimir Klitschko... Fat chance...

The 6'2" X 216 Tomasz Adamek, 44-1, tried to beat Vitali Klitschko... Former Cruiserweight Champion Juan Carlos Gomez also 44-1, tried to beat Vitali Klitschko... They also didn't have a chance... That's at least 6 small Heavyweights in 20 years.

As far as Holyfield, Tyson, and Holmes?... Holyfield lost his trilogy to Punching Bag Bowe.... Tyson got beaten up and knocked out by Big Buster Douglas... And Holmes barely got past Carl "The Truth" Williams... Somebody with Wladimir or Joshua's weapons would bomb Holmes out if the inept Williams gave him what for...

How many of those listed fighters is in the same zip code as Tyson, Holyfield, or Holmes? Half a dozen average sized heavyweights isn't a good sample size.. With the exception of maybe, and that's being generous, a handful of these large guys over the past two decades, the vast majority of them have been dreadful. I dont see those old guys getting spanked by the guys that clocked Wlad.

Wlad didn't get spanked for 11 years after a couple years of masterful coaching from Steward... WK was loaded with flaws for his early losses, but he was the best he ever was (technically) for AJ.... Vitali begged his brother to quit after Wlad's 3rd defeat... Wlad told Vitali he was going to be Heavyweight Champion longer than anyone else. Wlad achieved more consecutive years with Title Defenses than any other Heavyweight Champion.

Wlad had a lot more dedication to perfecting his game than anyone since Tunney... Holmes, Tyson, and Holyfield were loaded with flaws FOREVER... An examination of their records shows they were more hittable than the K Bros.

Holmes got beaten twice by a Light Heavyweight.. Larry was almost exterminated by the less than masterful Shavers (who got knocked out 7 X) and Snipes (a ridiculous, pathetic stinker).....

Tyson was smashed from pillar to post in the biggest upset in Fistic History by Douglas - 1 of the chinniest challengers ever..... Then Mike got knocked out and beaten twice by a Cruiserweight and committed the dirtiest fouls of all time with his ear eating... Then Lewis made the little tyke look like a small child who lost his daddy.

If a punch bag like Bowe could floor a peak Holyfield 3 X and beat his flagging ass into the canvas...a peak Wladimir destroys Holy quickly... Even the pathetic John Ruiz knocked Holyfield down and out-boxed him....unbelievable!!. Then an ex-Super-Welterweight came up and boxed the living piss out of the bummish punching bag Ruiz.. Imagine what Jones would have done to Holyfield?? Probably exactly what ex-Middleweight James Toney did for Holy.. Chris Byrd boxed Holy's ass off and Wladimir battered Byrd as he pleased for 19 rounds with nary taking a head shot.

Certainly a peak Povetkin and Haye were better than anybody those 3 hittable hackers beat.

That masterful coaching entailed a guy grabbing his opponents at will. None of those guys lose to the lot that Wlad did. Holyfield should've been retired before Toney, Ruiz, or Byrd. The past it Tyson Holyfield beat wouldve treated Haye and Povetkin like sparring partners. Is Wlad great for beating Povetkin, or for initiating over 130 clinches on the guy? Prime Tyson and Holmes werent easily hittable. The K brothers fought nobody, hence not getting hit. In Wlads case it's hard to get hit while hugging a guy.

[Kalan]

Steward was one of the most renowned Boxing coaches in Fistic History... He stuck with Wladimir for the duration and said he was the most talented Heavyweight in many, many years...and he taught more than clinching...

Stance and footwork were the first thing they worked on the 1st day... Wald told Manny "This is the first drill I was ever taught when I first started boxing when I was 11 years old." Steward said "We're going to go over it again from the beginning because you got away from it.. Everybody gets away from the basics so you need to constantly review."

Stance, footwork, balance, timing, the jab, the right lead and counter, the left hook lead and counter... combination punching... and defensive blocking, parrying, slipping, ducking, and rolling... All skills Steward was noted for teaching.

He didn't teach body punching or infighting that well... Clinching compensated for that... Referees don't call holding.

[MrGuy]

Steward was one of the most renowned Boxing coaches in Fistic History... He stuck with Wladimir for the duration and said he was the most talented Heavyweight in many, many years...and he taught more than clinching...

Stance and footwork were the first thing they worked on the 1st day... Wald told Manny "This is the first drill I was ever taught when I first started boxing when I was 11 years old." Steward said "We're going to go over it again from the beginning because you got away from it.. Everybody gets away from the basics so you need to constantly review."

Stance, footwork, balance, timing, the jab, the right lead and counter, the left hook lead and counter... combination punching... and defensive blocking, parrying, slipping, ducking, and rolling... All skills Steward was noted for teaching.

He didn't teach body punching or infighting that well... Clinching compensated for that... Referees don't call holding.

The clinch changed his game, and kept him from being ko'd. When it's excessive they're supposed to. Insert your Ali tirade here.

[oogiebe]

Steward was one of the most renowned Boxing coaches in Fistic History... He stuck with Wladimir for the duration and said he was the most talented Heavyweight in many, many years...and he taught more than clinching...

Stance and footwork were the first thing they worked on the 1st day... Wald told Manny "This is the first drill I was ever taught when I first started boxing when I was 11 years old." Steward said "We're going to go over it again from the beginning because you got away from it.. Everybody gets away from the basics so you need to constantly review."

Stance, footwork, balance, timing, the jab, the right lead and counter, the left hook lead and counter... combination punching... and defensive blocking, parrying, slipping, ducking, and rolling... All skills Steward was noted for teaching.

He didn't teach body punching or infighting that well... Clinching compensated for that... Referees don't call holding.

The clinch changed his game, and kept him from being ko'd. When it's excessive they're supposed to. Insert your Ali tirade here.

Now you are expecting consistency Mr. Guy? Good point!

[Kalan]

Steward was one of the most renowned Boxing coaches in Fistic History... He stuck with Wladimir for the duration and said he was the most talented Heavyweight in many, many years...and he taught more than clinching...

Stance and footwork were the first thing they worked on the 1st day... Wald told Manny "This is the first drill I was ever taught when I first started boxing when I was 11 years old." Steward said "We're going to go over it again from the beginning because you got away from it.. Everybody gets away from the basics so you need to constantly review."

Stance, footwork, balance, timing, the jab, the right lead and counter, the left hook lead and counter... combination punching... and defensive blocking, parrying, slipping, ducking, and rolling... All skills Steward was noted for teaching.

He didn't teach body punching or infighting that well... Clinching compensated for that... Referees don't call holding.

The clinch changed his game, and kept him from being ko'd. When it's excessive they're supposed to. Insert your Ali tirade here.

Now you are expecting consistency Mr. Guy? Good point!

I always said Wladimir wasn't a complete fighter... Too much clinching for sure.

Not much of a body attack or inside game like AJ has developed in his young career... That's why Joshua won.

[oogiebe]

Joshua won because he fought a 41 year old ex-champ who was at the end of his career. A Klitchko of 5 years earlier may have been a very different situation.

[Kalan]

Joshua won because he fought a 41 year old ex-champ who was at the end of his career. A Klitchko of 5 years earlier may have been a very different situation.

That goes both way cuz Josh had 18 fights... You match them both at age 36 and that's one Hell of a fight.

Of course, implying that AJ will stay hard at it as Wladimir did... He sure as Hell shows signs of that.

[oogiebe]

Joshua won because he fought a 41 year old ex-champ who was at the end of his career. A Klitchko of 5 years earlier may have been a very different situation.

That goes both way cuz Josh had 18 fights... You match them both at age 36 and that's one Hell of a fight.

Of course, implying that AJ will stay hard at it as Wladimir did... I sure as Hell shows signs of that.

Agreed. I'm saying Klitcko 5 years earlier, not Joshua. 36 y/o Wlad v. 27 y/o Joshua. (or Joshua now).