Were the Black Heavyweights of the Early 20th Century...

[HomicideHenry]

Really THAT great as the history books suggest?

I have rolled this over and over in my head many times and I don't know if I exactly believe the hype.... Primarily for one reason... They mostly fought the same guys over and over and over again, there was no real diversity in terms of style, size, experience, etc.

It'd be like facing 5-6 guys today about 40-50 times, and then facing the top champions and contenders.... Surely that wouldn't translate into success?

[Kalan]

The 1st one to get a shot at the Heavyweight Championship did very well circa 2008....

The 2nd one to get a shot at the Heavyweight Championship did very well -- like 26 years later or so???

And it seems that once the color line was broken in the late 40's they dominated with more champs than any other race -- Louis to Joshua... If that situation existed throughout the 20 Century, then there'd be more black Champions.

[Ambling Alp II]

Really THAT great as the history books suggest?

I have rolled this over and over in my head many times and I don't know if I exactly believe the hype.... Primarily for one reason... They mostly fought the same guys over and over and over again, there was no real diversity in terms of style, size, experience, etc.

It'd be like facing 5-6 guys today about 40-50 times, and then facing the top champions and contenders.... Surely that wouldn't translate into success?

I guess it depends upon who you are talking about. Johnson, Langford, McVey, Jeannette, and Wills were great. They had trouble getting with good white fighters but usually were pretty successful when they did.

AS for diversity, well Langford was not much like the rest, particularly Johnson and Wills. They all gained a lot of experience having long careers.

[HomicideHenry]

Johnson had the best success of all those men, and I'd wager to say that it's because if you look at his record he had more diversity in opponents than his fellow colored boxers.

Early on he was mixing it up with whites, Hispanics, etc of various sizes and skillsets and abilities. He got to see more, therefore he learned and grew more.

Whereas guys like Sam Langford was incapable of beating guys like Fred Fulton, Johnson was using Gunboat Smith as a sparring partner. That's the difference between him and everyone else in the black boxing community (at least in the heavyweight division).

The others just kept on fighting the same people over and over and over again and again, never learning nothing new, not really being tested, etc. which is why they couldn't really lay a finger on Johnson, and I'd venture to say that they'd of lost to the topnotch white fighters as well had they gotten their chances.

[gilgamesh]

I'd love to know what would happen if you threw Sam Langford into the modern era.

[oogiebe]

I'd love to know what would happen if you threw Sam Langford into the modern era.

MY MAN! Langford!

[oogiebe]

The 1st one to get a shot at the Heavyweight Championship did very well circa 2008....

The 2nd one to get a shot at the Heavyweight Championship did very well -- like 26 years later or so???

And it seems that once the color line was broken in the late 40's they dominated with more champs than any other race -- Louis to Joshua... If that situation existed throughout the 20 Century, then there'd be more black Champions.

2008?

[HomicideHenry]

I'd love to know what would happen if you threw Sam Langford into the modern era.

He's the greatest boxer p4p in many respects. He could have been a champion at 130, 147, 160, 175 ,possibly even Heavyweight in his time.

In our modern era... I'd like to see him at junior Middleweight... No more than Middleweight... He'd probably do really well, though the men today are for bigger than the men he fought in his day... All the dehydration methods, etc the fornicating welterweights in all reality are cruiserweights walking around.

I'd love to see them go into Langfords time, and get laughed out the door saying that they were the best welterweight in the world, when they'd be called a chickenshit for not fighting at light heavyweight.

[oogiebe]

It's unfortunate that racism robbed the world of great athletes for such a long time. (of course their were more awful events due to racism).

[HomicideHenry]

It's unfortunate that racism robbed the world of great athletes for such a long time. (of course their were more awful events due to racism).

Indeed, but, I do think that the majority wasn't as good as history wants to paint. That's why Big Bill Tate was a sparring partner for Dempsey, and not a leading contender. That's why Peter Felix was a sparring partner for Bob Fitzsimmons, and not a leading contender.

Of them all.... The original George Godfrey, Peter Jackson, Sam McVea, Harry Wills and Sam Langford were the best of the bunch other than Jack Johnson in the Heavyweight division... I don't necessarily include Joe Jeanette because he primarily lost to the majority of the before mentioned men.

Godfrey and Jackson NEARLY had their shots at the world title, though, despite the popular myth that they were shut out by John L. Sullivan.

[Kalan]

The 1st one to get a shot at the Heavyweight Championship did very well circa 2008....

The 2nd one to get a shot at the Heavyweight Championship did very well -- like 26 years later or so???

And it seems that once the color line was broken in the late 40's they dominated with more champs than any other race -- Louis to Joshua... If that situation existed throughout the 20 Century, then there'd be more black Champions.

2008?

Wrong Century... '08 of the 20th Century -- which weirdly enough starts with a 19

[oogiebe]

The 1st one to get a shot at the Heavyweight Championship did very well circa 2008....

The 2nd one to get a shot at the Heavyweight Championship did very well -- like 26 years later or so???

And it seems that once the color line was broken in the late 40's they dominated with more champs than any other race -- Louis to Joshua... If that situation existed throughout the 20 Century, then there'd be more black Champions.

2008?

Wrong Century... '08 of the 20th Century -- which weirdly enough starts with a 19 .

I knew what you meant. I was bustin' 'em.

[Kalan]

I knew you knew.... But it's amazing I've even seen this error in print... Your thinking 16th Century so you start with 16

[oogiebe]

I knew you knew.... But it's amazing I've even seen this error in print... Your thinking 16th Century so you start with 16

Yeah...my kids issue with it remind me of the issues I had for years. Never made sense, until I realized that the first century started with a 0. (I.E. 0976) Thank God they didn't have check books back then!

[Ambling Alp II]

Johnson had the best success of all those men, and I'd wager to say that it's because if you look at his record he had more diversity in opponents than his fellow colored boxers.

Early on he was mixing it up with whites, Hispanics, etc of various sizes and skillsets and abilities. He got to see more, therefore he learned and grew more.

Whereas guys like Sam Langford was incapable of beating guys like Fred Fulton, Johnson was using Gunboat Smith as a sparring partner. That's the difference between him and everyone else in the black boxing community (at least in the heavyweight division).

The others just kept on fighting the same people over and over and over again and again, never learning nothing new, not really being tested, etc. which is why they couldn't really lay a finger on Johnson, and I'd venture to say that they'd of lost to the topnotch white fighters as well had they gotten their chances.

Langofrd was not "incapble of beating guys like Fred Fulton". They fought once when Langford was past it and Fulton won a four round decision. He beat several good white fighters during his career. He would have fought more but had trouble getting fights against them. ad they fought a fight of 10 or more rounds near Langford's prime , he would have beaten Fulton easily.

Langford had a very long, buys career. If you take the time to look, you will see that Langford.
Gunboat Smith was a top notch white fighter, beat Willard for one. Langford beat him. Langford beat Flynn several times.

[HomicideHenry]

#1- Langford also lost to Jim Flynn; the two men would meet a total of six times, Langford winning four and losing two. The majority of those wins when both men were beyond shot.

#2- Langford went 1-1-0 against Gunboat Smith in 1913-1914; I tend to believe Smith when he says that he was sick when he lost to Langford, considering Gunboat Smith rarely ever got stopped in his prime: the majority of his stoppage losses came early on or passed his prime.

#3- Langford, in addition to losing to Fulton and Smith and Flynn, also lost to (or drew or no contested) the following white people: Willie Meehan, Dan Porky Flynn, and Colin Bell.

#4- Langford met Fulton twice between 1917-1918. He lost on a 7th round kayo in the first fight and lost a decision the second time. Langford would have 84 wins after the first loss to Fulton. Doesn't sound "shot" or "passed it" to me in that time frame. ESPECIALLY when you consider Jack Dempsey in this period of time flat out ducked Langford. It's worth noting that Langford after losing to Fulton thought that he was surely going to become Heavyweight champion.

This in no way diminishes his capabilities or worth as a fighter, in my estimation he is the greatest p4p fighter of all time, however.... Either because he was fighting similar styled opponents continuously, or because of sheer physiques working against him... He was incapable of beating the truly great Heavyweights of the era who were 195+ pounds. He failed against Harry Wills, Jack Johnson, in addition to having draws or losses to McVea, Tate, Jeanette, among others from time to time.

[Kalan]

Fulton wasn't that good... He got knocked out in 17 seconds by Jack Dempsey... Dempsey got beaten 6 weeks later.

Langford wasn't that good... He fought 68 fights he either lost or drew...

It's really funny... Boxing has spread throughout the world with many more combatants in the Heavyweight Division -- but Anthony Joshua is taken the distance by an Undefeated Heavyweight Champion in a fight Joshua won easily... Joseph Parker has never been knocked down in his life, but because AJ went the distance with Parker, dominating the fight with his jab --that proves that he's not as good as somebody who fought 50 years ago and suffered tremendous upset losses.

[gilgamesh]

Fulton wasn't that good... He got smashed unconscious in 17 seconds by Jack Dempsey.

Langford wasn't that good... He fought 68 fight he either lost or drew.

He sandbagged it in several fights just to make himself look beatable and get people to fight him. If he knocked everyone flat nobody would fight him. Different time.

Consider this: One of those Draws was with George Godfrey

In subsequent Rematches he knocked out Godfrey in the 1st and 2nd rounds respectively.

[HomicideHenry]

Fulton wasn't that good... He got smashed unconscious in 17 seconds by Jack Dempsey.

Langford wasn't that good... He fought 68 fight he either lost or drew.

Fulton was a product of the era. Many a man over 6' and 200 pounds suddenly became professionals in the "White Hope" era of boxing. Lumberjacks, miners, bricklayers, circus freaks, strongmen, etc.

The vast majority of them couldn't box a lick. No surprise. I'd venture to say that less than 10% of the would be heroes actually amounted to something in the sport. Probably the best of the bunch was Luther McCarty, who at 6'4" and 225 pounds had great ring generalship and a very good whip-like jab. Unfortunately his career tragically ended after having an accident in a rodeo which would be the direct result of his death a few days later when he stepped into the ring.

As for Fulton... He was one of the most powerful punchers in boxing history, making RING MAGAZINE'S 100 GREATEST PUNCHERS OF THE LAST 100 YEARS a couple of years ago. He was effective with his size (6'5" & 245 pounds) but he fought out of a traditional straight backed, straight legged style that was just screaming to be hit and he was obviously slower than smaller men so he could be countered without reprimand.

Most were simply too small (like Langford) to get much work done against him, or they were too limited. Outside of Langford, his best wins against a reasonably sized men with reasonable abilities were: John Lester Johnson, Willie Meehan, Frank Moran, Gunboat Smith, Fireman Jim Flynn, and he even had a draw against Billy Miske.

He wasn't a bad fighter. He just happened to have a weak chin, which is relatively common among huge punchers because they seldom get hit back and never really build up a tolerance. He was the Klitschko of the early 20th century, but unfortunately he never improved following his losses unlike Wladimir.

[Kalan]

Fulton wasn't that good... He got smashed unconscious in 17 seconds by Jack Dempsey.

Langford wasn't that good... He fought 68 fight he either lost or drew.

He sandbagged it in several fights just to make himself look beatable and get people to fight him. If he knocked everyone flat nobody would fight him. Different time.

Consider this: One of those Draws was with George Godfrey

In subsequent Rematches he knocked out Godfrey in the 1st and 2nd rounds respectively.

I doubt it.... Sandbagging just drives down your marketability and drawing power... And "several" isn't 68,..

[gilgamesh]

I ain't saying he sandbagged it every time he fought, but he certainly held back on some occasions. A lot of those losses and draws just come from wear and tear and age I'm sure, or just tough matchmaking. I mean hell he faced a slew of tough guys throughout his career. Some of 'em like Harry Wills over a dozen times.

[HomicideHenry]

I ain't saying he sandbagged it every time he fought, but he certainly held back on some occasions. A lot of those losses and draws just come from wear and tear and age I'm sure, or just tough matchmaking. I mean hell he faced a slew of tough guys throughout his career. Some of 'em like Harry Wills over a dozen times.

It was common practice in those times for guys to "do business" especially if fight films were involved... The longer the film was, the more revenue there was to be made... So, alot of times guys held back when they could have iced their opponent quickly.... Which is why for years and years decisions were outlawed in boxing, hence the "newspaper decision" era which Langford was apart of... However, yes, alot of guys white and black and brown and yellow and red were forced into "dumbing down" their abilities just so they could get a return bout or get some other deal.

[Kalan]

Fulton wasn't that good... He got smashed unconscious in 17 seconds by Jack Dempsey.

Langford wasn't that good... He fought 68 fight he either lost or drew.

As for Fulton... He was one of the most powerful punchers in boxing history, making RING MAGAZINE'S 100 GREATEST PUNCHERS OF THE LAST 100 YEARS a couple of years ago. He was effective with his size (6'5" & 245 pounds) but he fought out of a traditional straight backed, straight legged style that was just screaming to be hit and he was obviously slower than smaller men so he could be countered without reprimand.

He sure as Hell wasn't 6'5" X 245.... He was 208 for Dempsey when he was 27... A fully mature man... You're trying to make Joshua or a Klitschko Bro out of him... I don't care where Ring ranks him -- he's not on my list of 1000 best punchers... Dempsey was a guy who could really hit and so could Wills... So Fulton's ass was grass in both fights.

[HomicideHenry]

Fulton wasn't that good... He got smashed unconscious in 17 seconds by Jack Dempsey.

Langford wasn't that good... He fought 68 fight he either lost or drew.

As for Fulton... He was one of the most powerful punchers in boxing history, making RING MAGAZINE'S 100 GREATEST PUNCHERS OF THE LAST 100 YEARS a couple of years ago. He was effective with his size (6'5" & 245 pounds) but he fought out of a traditional straight backed, straight legged style that was just screaming to be hit and he was obviously slower than smaller men so he could be countered without reprimand.

He sure as Hell wasn't 6'5" X 245.... He was 208 for Dempsey when he was 27... A fully mature man... You're trying to make Joshua or a Klitschko Bro out of him... I don't care where Ring ranks him -- he's not on my list of 1000 best punchers... Dempsey was a guy who could really hit and so could Wills... So Fulton's ass was grass in both fights.

Fulton fought as high as 225, and as low as 200. You got to understand men TRAINED DOWN back then a helluva lot more than today. When I use '245' it's because that was his natural walking around weight.

Not a good puncher? You bring up Dempsey. Jack couldn't do anything with Willie Meehan. Fulton knocked him out. Jack couldn't do anything with John Lester Johnson either, and admitted he lost that fight. Fulton knocked him out.

Dempsey also avoided Sam Langford. He admits that outright in his autobiography. Wanted no part of him. Yet Fulton knocked out Langford. To say he wasn't a good puncher is living in an upside world where facts are meaningless.

[Kalan]

[It was common practice in those times for guys to "do business" especially if fight films were involved... The longer the film was, the more revenue there was to be made... So, alot of times guys held back.

It's pathetic if you have a sport where it's "common practice" for guys to not give their best efforts... I believe the fans can sense that... They yell "FAKE" and stuff and maybe decide not to waste their money... One reason Dempsey was so popular is he was lit to the gills every time he went in there.. Everybody knew "Shitt!! This guy means business."