BILLY CONN VS EZZARD CHARLAS, JOE WALCOTT AND ROCKY MARCIANO

[HomicideHenry]

Also... If we're going to talk about dehydration and rehydration.... Consider this about Billy Conn.... The scales read 174 when he fought Joe Louis (1 pound below light heavyweight limit) and "The Brown Bomber" was 199.

The truth of the matter is that Conn, in reality, was 169 pounds and Louis was nearly 205... 36 pounds difference... He nearly won the championship of the world against arguably the greatest heavyweight champion of all time.

Now.... Had he been heavier... I don't believe he'd of had the success of slipping, sliding, dodging... If he was stronger, it'd of been a fool's errand regardless because Louis would have knocked him out sooner because he'd of tried to knock Joe out.

In the rematch Conn was legitimately 182 pounds... Sure he was older, etc... But the weight gain did him no favors and he was blown out in eight rounds.

This idea that he'd of been better/greater than he was had he been bigger, stronger, etc... Would have only taken away the very fundamentals that made Billy Conn a threat to every Heavyweight of his time, as well as made him a top five all-time light heavyweight and top twenty all-time Middleweight.

[HomicideHenry]

I don't think Kalan understands that muscle mass, strength training, etc was not ideal (and still isn't) for combat sports where reflexes, timing, and fluidity are what ultimately matter in sports that can end at any time in a matter of seconds.

Louis Cyr and Horace Barre, in the same era as Eugene Sandow, competed from time to time as wrestlers and boxers as part of their "act" as strongmen... But they could never, ever, ever, ever match up to the smaller, quicker, and therefore more deadly competitors of the day like Frank Gotch, Farmer Burns, JH McLaughlin, William Muldoon, etc.

More times than not, the jacked up bodybuilder types in boxing seldom ever go far in the sport. Those that do, eventually, get defeated by comparative "soft bodies" who are more skilled than the Herculean types.

Reminds me of a certain Mr Bruno. Who through sheer hard work, weight lifting, and dedication managed to win a world title in his 4th attempt.

Best not think about what happened in his first defence 6 months later, against the faster, cleverer, 27 lbs LIGHTER guy, eh?

Bruno is a good example of our modern Heavyweights like Anthony Joshua, who has been compared to Frank on many occasions.

Bruno lost to the likes of Tim Witherspoon, who would never be considered anything to look at with his love handles.... and Bonecrusher Smith who was another one who would never win a body beautiful contest...

Tyson and Lewis had bodies, sure, but not as impressively as Bruno's.

[Kalan]

I don't think Kalan understands that muscle mass, strength training, etc was not ideal (and still isn't) for combat sports where reflexes, timing, and fluidity are what ultimately matter in sports that can end at any time in a matter of seconds.

Louis Cyr and Horace Barre, in the same era as Eugene Sandow, competed from time to time as wrestlers and boxers as part of their "act" as strongmen... But they could never, ever, ever, ever match up to the smaller, quicker, and therefore more deadly competitors of the day like Frank Gotch, Farmer Burns, JH McLaughlin, William Muldoon, etc.

More times than not, the jacked up bodybuilder types in boxing seldom ever go far in the sport. Those that do, eventually, get defeated by comparative "soft bodies" who are more skilled than the Herculean types.

Reminds me of a certain Mr Bruno. Who through sheer hard work, weight lifting, and dedication managed to win a world title in his 4th attempt.

Best not think about what happened in his first defence 6 months later, against the faster, cleverer, 27 lbs LIGHTER guy, eh?

Bruno is a good example of our modern Heavyweights like Anthony Joshua, who has been compared to Frank on many occasions.

Bruno lost to the likes of Tim Witherspoon, who would never be considered anything to look at with his love handles.... and Bonecrusher Smith who was another one who would never win a body beautiful contest...

Tyson and Lewis had bodies, sure, but not as impressively as Bruno's.

Bruno was muscle bound... He was able to beat up and stop Bungling Joe Bugner and that was the extent of his abilities... Bruno had all kinds of mental and emotional problem and wasn't a good athlete... Joshua won the Super Stars competition. In fact he dominated it -- so he was competing against really great athlete and beat all of them -- while Bruno couldn't get out of his own way and couldn't compete in Super Stars anyway because he wasn't a Super Star.

Joshua's muscularity is functional and gives him greater speed, balance, flexibility, and power.... Bruno's muscularity was dysfunctional...making him slow, cloddish, stiff, and sloppy... He was a disaster looking for a place to happen.

Roy Jones was one of the greatest boxers in History and won World Titles in from Middleweight to Heavyweight... By going up through so many weight divisions and lifting weights with Mackie Shilstone... Roy was able to maintain his reflexes, timing, fluidity, flexibility, balance, and sharpness, and add the strength, power, and resistance. of a Heavyweight.

[Kalan]

Because Roy didn't need to knock Ruiz out... He was boxing and batting the lad around like a sparring partner... He was winning every round with his speed and mastery... He was enjoying the farce with Ruiz's manager screaming at Ruiz to "hit him" and yelling at the referee.. Roy messed up Ruiz's stone like face and gave him a much needed boxing lesson.

Roy should have fought Lennox Lewis or Corrie Sanders next – but he decided to fight Antonio Tarver for 1/5th the money.. I couldn't figure that out.. That decision destroyed Roy's body...

You need to stop training and fighting and let the added muscle dissipate naturally for 5 or 6 months if you want to drop down 2 divisions in weight.. That way the individual muscle fibers atrophy (shrink) naturally and you don’t lose any.. Roy trained extra hard to burn off weight.. Burning fat off is great – but if you’re rock solid you actually burn off individual muscle fibers to lose the weight. They’re gone forever.

That makes your musculature weaker and less responsive. When you go back up in weight your existing muscle fibers need to hypertrophy larger than before. They’re not as strong or responsive. Roy was never the same because he made a mistake going back down to Light Heavyweight ... and doing it too fast.

[HomicideHenry]

Kalan certainly does live in an alternative reality.

[oogiebe]

Kalan certainly does live in an alternative reality.

If I could buy Kalan for what I think he is worth and sell him for what HE thinks he's worth, I'd be rich

[Kalan]

If I could sell you for what your worth I'd be wiped out... Whoever I pushed you off on would demand to be compensated.

[oogiebe]

If I could sell you for what your worth I'd be wiped out... Whoever I pushed you off on would demand to be compensated.

WTF are you talking about you clod! Prat!

[Kalan]

Kalan certainly does live in an alternative reality.

Why don't you read the post about 15 times until you start grasping the substance... I can't think for you.

[oogiebe]

Kalan certainly does live in an alternative reality.

Why don't you read the post about 15 times until you start grasping the substance... I can't think for you.

Your response was like Tommy boy. "no...um...er..you are RIchard" Ahhh...you make me crack up! Your turn!

[HomicideHenry]

Kalan.... If Joshua was half the Superman you peg him to be he'd of flattened Joseph Parker (whose not much bigger than a cruiserweight) ... And he sure as hell wouldn't have needed nearly the distance to put away 6'1" Takam, and he wouldn't have hit the deck against a comparatively ancient, inactive, China chinned Klitschko.

If Roy Jones was truly a legitimate Heavyweight, he'd of fought the broken shells named Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson when he had ample opportunity to have done so... Deep down within himself he knew he wasn't capable, though he'd of made more money than he would have in his entire career till that point had he done so... Between an extraordinarily helpful referee, and a limited "champion in name only" who should have been a professional hugger... Jones "won" a championship at Heavyweight.

[oogiebe]

Kalan.... If Joshua was half the Superman you peg him to be he'd of flattened Joseph Parker (whose not much bigger than a cruiserweight) ... And he sure as hell wouldn't have needed nearly the distance to put away 5'10" Takam, and he wouldn't have hit the deck against a comparatively ancient, inactive, China chinned Klitschko.

If Roy Jones was truly a legitimate Heavyweight, he'd of fought the broken shells named Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson when he had ample opportunity to have done so... Deep down within himself he knew he wasn't capable, though he'd of made more money than he would have in his entire career till that point had he done so... Between an extraordinarily helpful referee, and a limited "champion in name only" who should have been a professional hugger... Jones "won" a championship at Heavyweight.

Good points Henry. Also, tell me what fighters you know would carry on a fight any longer then it needed to? "he didn't have to" regarding Jones Jr. I just don't get it. (him)

[HomicideHenry]

Kalan.... If Joshua was half the Superman you peg him to be he'd of flattened Joseph Parker (whose not much bigger than a cruiserweight) ... And he sure as hell wouldn't have needed nearly the distance to put away 5'10" Takam, and he wouldn't have hit the deck against a comparatively ancient, inactive, China chinned Klitschko.

If Roy Jones was truly a legitimate Heavyweight, he'd of fought the broken shells named Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson when he had ample opportunity to have done so... Deep down within himself he knew he wasn't capable, though he'd of made more money than he would have in his entire career till that point had he done so... Between an extraordinarily helpful referee, and a limited "champion in name only" who should have been a professional hugger... Jones "won" a championship at Heavyweight.

Good points Henry. Also, tell me what fighters you know would carry on a fight any longer then it needed to? "he didn't have to" regarding Jones Jr. I just don't get it. (him)

If Kalan is under the impression that Jones could have stopped Ruiz he's greatly mistaken... Sure he bloodied Ruiz's nose, but then again, this is boxing that's a fornicating given... Hell in my debut I had a bloody nose it's going to happen 99/100 in fights.

[Kalan]

Kalan.... If Joshua was half the Superman you peg him to be he'd of flattened Joseph Parker (whose not much bigger than a cruiserweight) ... And he sure as hell wouldn't have needed nearly the distance to put away 5'10" Takam, and he wouldn't have hit the deck against a comparatively ancient, inactive, China chinned Klitschko.

If Roy Jones was truly a legitimate Heavyweight, he'd of fought the broken shells named Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson when he had ample opportunity to have done so... Deep down within himself he knew he wasn't capable, though he'd of made more money than he would have in his entire career till that point had he done so... Between an extraordinarily helpful referee, and a limited "champion in name only" who should have been a professional hugger... Jones "won" a championship at Heavyweight.

Good points Henry. Also, tell me what fighters you know would carry on a fight any longer then it needed to? "he didn't have to" regarding Jones Jr. I just don't get it. (him)

If Kalan is under the impression that Jones could have stopped Ruiz he's greatly mistaken... Sure he bloodied Ruiz's nose, but then again, this is boxing that's a effing given... Hell in my debut I had a bloody nose it's going to happen 99/100 in fights.

Roy didn't have to stop Ruiz... He's not a Heavyweight... He's going to use his balance, speed, timing, arsenal, feints, combination punching, counters, and defensive mastery... He's way up on all the cards... Has the fight won... He was too smart and not cocky enough to risk a Bill Conn type disaster -- with a Heavyweight Title at stake.

As for Joshua... Parker has an iron jaw.. He goes 6'4" X 240 so he's much bigger than a Cruiserweight... Why should Joshua go all out to stop him when he's winning easily and Parker has a rock-like head? .... JP's been boxing since he was 6 and he's never been knocked down... He was an Undefeated Heavyweight Champion and AJ beat him.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Not at all... Charles was a Hell of a lot better than Marciano or Walcott at his best... He was brilliant.

The best Charles beat Archie Moore 3 times without a loss... and he beat a younger Joe Walcott twice.

Charles complained about being slow and sluggish for many years ... including right before Walcott knocked him out... Charles died of ALS... It's a nerve disease that slowly degenerates your motor skills until you can't lift a finger...

The only thing slower than ALS is aging ... that is the slow progressing kind.

It can take 40 years or more to do it's dirty work... You don't even know you have ALS until you start stumbling around and get diagnosed by a specialist... It might have been undermining your nervous system for umpteen years by that point, and you found ways to compensate for the initial symptoms...

That's a sad story Kalan no doubt but Ezzard was at his best at light heavyweight he would not have handled Rocky power or JJW class at the heavier weight no way pal

[Kalan]

Ezzard Charles sure as Hell beat Jersey Joe Walcott 10 ways to Sunday the first 2 times they fought... Fighting him at 181 and 182 so he wasn't a Light Heavyweight anymore... When Charles fought Walcott the 3rd time it's like he fell off a cliff.

He bitched like Hell about not feeling right and I don't think he was ever the same again after that.

[BoxBuzz]

This is accurate.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Ezzard Charles sure as Hell beat Jersey Joe Walcott 10 ways to Sunday the first 2 times they fought... Fighting him at 181 and 182 so he wasn't a Light Heavyweight anymore... When Charles fought Walcott the 3rd time it's like he fell off a cliff.

He bitched like Hell about not feeling right and I don't think he was ever the same again after that.

Ezzard was the best Light Heavyweight not Heavyweight he was good just not as great as light heavy end of story

[ClivePatrickLyons]

This is accurate.

WHAT IS

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Ezzard Charles sure as Hell beat Jersey Joe Walcott 10 ways to Sunday the first 2 times they fought... Fighting him at 181 and 182 so he wasn't a Light Heavyweight anymore... When Charles fought Walcott the 3rd time it's like he fell off a cliff.

He bitched like Hell about not feeling right and I don't think he was ever the same again after that.

Stop your self you are not a doctor stop blaming Ezzards illness JJW was a better Heavyweight then Charles simple as that you talk like they only fought twice and that Ezzard had JJW measure like he had Archie Moore number at Light Heavy Marciano destroys Billy Conn and Ezzard and JJW would beat Conn on both guys best night JJW better then Conn

[Kalan]

Ezzard Charles sure as Hell beat Jersey Joe Walcott 10 ways to Sunday the first 2 times they fought... Fighting him at 181 and 182 so he wasn't a Light Heavyweight anymore... When Charles fought Walcott the 3rd time it's like he fell off a cliff.

He bitched like Hell about not feeling right and I don't think he was ever the same again after that.

Stop your self you are not a doctor stop blaming Ezzards illness JJW was a better Heavyweight then Charles simple as that you talk like they only fought twice and that Ezzard had JJW measure like he had Archie Moore number at Light Heavy Marciano destroys Billy Conn and Ezzard and JJW would beat Conn on both guys best night JJW better then Conn

NOPE!!! Ezzard Charles was a lot lighter than Joe Walcott when he busted his ass twice... He was too slick for him.

The 3rd time Charles fought Walcott he had a record of 71-5-1 ..... He had won 40 straight fights including 9 straight Heavyweight Championship Fights -- including the Elmer Ray fight because all media reports said Charles won easy.

The 3rd time Walcott fought Charles he had a record of 49-16-2 ..... Walcott was wide open and Charles was a very slick boxer... Charles fell right off a cliff in that fight compared to their first 2 fights... He was never the same since.

Since Charles complained of feeling weak, tired, slow, and sluggish the rest of his career and he kept getting worse and worse and losing more and more fights until he couldn't beat anybody - and you can have ALS for 40 years or more and he died of it... He was probably getting ravaged by the disease for many years before he was diagnosed with it.

[HomicideHenry]

ALS is a rapid disease. Not a slow one. I'm tired of the lies that Ezzard Charles had ALS for over two decades. That's absolutely garbage.

Scott LeDoux had ALS, and died within three years after the diagnosis (diagnosed in 2008, died in 2011).

Charles stopped boxing in 1959, and was diagnosed with ALS in 1968, and died in 1975. Charles only started to decline in the year 1952, but was still the top contender all the way through 1955, and from that point on he severely declined as a boxer losing 13 times after the Marciano fights, only winning 10.

[Kalan]

ALS is a rapid disease. Not a slow one. I'm tired of the lies that Ezzard Charles had ALS for over two decades. That's absolutely garbage.

Scott LeDoux had ALS, and died within three years after the diagnosis (diagnosed in 2008, died in 2011).

Charles stopped boxing in 1959, and was diagnosed with ALS in 1968, and died in 1975. Charles only started to decline in the year 1952, but was still the top contender all the way through 1955, and from that point on he severely declined as a boxer losing 13 times after the Marciano fights, only winning 10.

That is TOTAL BULLCRAP Henry .... Stephen Hawking was diagnosed with ALS before Charles was diagnosed.. Hawking can't move an eyeball anymore, but I believe he's still alive... Some people live very long with the disease... Some only a few years... It's a very aggressive disease with some people -- but it creeps along almost as slow as aging with others.

Charles didn't start declining in 1952... He started declining in 1951... Very slow at first, he'd have good and bad days... He lost to Liight Heavyweight Harold Johnson and to slow Heavyweight Nino Valdes in 1953... So after that I think he was more diminished than he was when Walcott knocked him out... He could still win a few fights ... but he kept getting worse,

[HomicideHenry]

No, 1951 there was no decline.

After the freak loss by kayo to JJW he easily dispatched of Rex Layne, Joey Maxim and Joe Kahut. Then he was FLAT OUT ROBBED against JJW in their 5th and final meeting. 21 reporters at ringside saw Charles winning, 18 had JJW winning, and 2 thought it was a draw.

Most observers on closed circuit thought Charles was robbed blind, and after the match Ezzard lamented: "Joe will never rematch me again after this," because everybody knew that JJW didn't really win.

NOW.... Following that night.... Things get a little bit more iffy.... The sole judge for Charles's rematch with Rex Layne was the immortal Jack Dempsey, who had stake in Layne.... He scored the fight as follows: 2 rounds for Layne, 1 round Charles, and SEVEN ROUNDS EVEN!

Once again the Cincinnati Cobra was robbed blind by an impartial judge with a history of racist ideals....

Charles then goes 6-0-0 before facing Layne again and this time whoops the absolute dogshit out of Layne dropping him three times.... Again, does this sound like a sick man who's slowly dying?....

Two fights later he drops a decision to Nino Valdes, and then loses a razor thin (once again controversial ) decision to Harold Johnson. One can argue that this is where the decline begins, because it was back to back losses, but context is everything: Did he really lose to Johnson?

It's hard to say that he did considering he THEN defeats #2 Heavyweight contender Bob Satterfield in two rounds, and Johnson (after the Charles win) would beat 4 fringe contenders before getting kayoed by Archie Moore in 14 rounds.

What's not up debate, though, is that Ezzard Charles was Rocky Marciano's toughest opponent and following the two blockbuster smashes.... He certainly was never the same again... Then again, very few men were ever the same after facing The Rock.

No, 1952 is the decline year for Ezzard Charles.

[HomicideHenry]

As for Stephen Hawking, he was diagnosed in 1963. Without round the clock care, 365 days per year, and the generosity of Cambridge University and the love of his family and the grace of Jesus Christ, he wouldn't have made it passed the "three years to live" diagnosis he was given.

Less than 5% of ALS cases live a decade or longer. Hawking was that 5% but... He all but died in 1985, and only because of an emergency tracheostomy, being put on life support machines from then on, was he able to live to 2018. He died recently.

But he was wheel chair bound by the late 1960s. His ALS was quite rapid, because by the 1970s he was using an electric wheelchair and could pretty much only use his fingers and little else. So when 1985 came about his lungs gave out and would lose his voice, and was essentially in a vegetative state from that point onwards. His wheelchair operated by his eyebrow movements by that point and time.