Debunking the misinformation around Canelo’s clenbuterol positives!

[lazboy]

E-O may have met his "irrefutable" match.

He cannot match EO in denial. EO is the denial master, denies being wrong, denies contrary opinion and evidence, denies having multiple alt accounts such as the Kalan account...the list goes on.

[Impractical Poster]

E-O may have met his "irrefutable" match.

He cannot match EO in denial. EO is the denial master, denies being wrong, denies contrary opinion and evidence, denies having multiple alt accounts such as the Kalan account...the list goes on.

Yeah, but deleted scenes looks to have some irrefutable points. But what I am noticing is that when that happens, EO looks to refer to not being an expert on the matter and points back to a somewhat relevant point he made earlier. Not sure I have ever seen him admit to losing a discussion.

But that goes for most members here as well I suppose.

[caldo2025]

This is a very interesting article that I hope will enlighten those that possess strong, though uneducated, opinions surrounding PED’s in general.

It also addresses the concerns of those that wrongly believe that “if Canelo was really clean, he would have provided a hair sample!”.

"Debunking the misinformation around Canelo’s clenbuterol positives"

The Hair Test

There has been a push in some quarters to use the “hair test” in order to convict or clear Canelo. To hear it told, this hair test is the answer to every question. In reality, hair testing for clenbuterol isn’t used for a reason; it’s incredibly unreliable.

The amount of clenbuterol that shows up in hair varies massively depending on factors like hair color. One study gave a group of people the same amount of clenbuterol. One participant, a 27-year-old female, showed 23 ng/g of clenbuterol in her hair afterwards. Another participant, also a 27-year-old female, showed 161 ng/g of clenbuterol in her hair. They both took the exact same amount, but one had seven times as much in her sample. The suggested reason for this discrepancy? The women had different hair color. This hair color discrepancy was supported by the other data in the study.




That might sound ridiculous, but other studies have found the same thing.

Another study, with more participants, found that even among subjects with similar hair color, the variation is still large. Despite every subject having hair listed as “brown” or “dark brown”, this study also found significant variation:

The lowest detected amount of clenbuterol in the first segment of hair was 0.43 pg/ng, the largest amount was 4.76 pg/ng. Both of these subjects had hair classed as “brown,” and both took the same amount of clenbuterol in the same way. That’s a difference of an entire order of magnitude. A similar issue was found in the second segments, which ranged from a detected amount of 0.00 pg/ng to 0.86 pg/ng.

Tests that have results varying by so much even under a controlled conditions are not reliable tests. The idea that they would somehow give us the information we need to determine if Canelo accidentally or deliberately ingested clenbuterol is ridiculous.

I strongly recommend that those self-proclaimed "experts" on PED’s and testing in general, who also regularly engage in lengthy heated debates about this subject matter, should click on the above hyperlink and read the article in its entirety, since it appears to debunk many other myths also.

Thoughts?

More Fake News from EO. Not worth the read

[Deleted_Scenes]

There is no evidence to suggest that hair samples can be tested for proof of a fighter using PED's.

That's the part you don't know.

Lack of knowledge of evidence, does not equal proof of no evidence.

As I've said, for zero threshold substances, there is a plethora of evidence to say it DOES work. The argument is around variation in quantities absorbed by hair (which exists for blood and urine too). Even the two highly flawed studies cited in the BLH article don't go as far as to claim hair testing can't give a simple positive/negative result. For that, hair is MORE effective than blood or urine.

There must be a reason forensic toxicology labs around the world routinely use hair testing - and the results of those hair tests are fully admissable in a court of law. Those labs have a legal duty to base their practices on the latest and best science available. If anything, their level of scrutiny would be much higher than a mere sports PED testing lab - WADA accredited or not.

If WADA wish to reject that as a testing method, that's their prerogative, but that doesn't mean those tests are junk, and the two papers cited utterly fail in claiming that.

As things stand, neither you nor I have provided any research that stands up to scientific scrutiny. Due to that, all we can really do is analyse the actions of those who would have access to the data. WADA reject hair testing, but other organisations readily accept it.

Therefore, without any other evidence to bring to the table, you can not (with any degree of certainty), make the case that hair testing would be unsuitable for this purpose.

Going back to the most basic level - "Debunking the misinformation around Canelo's clenbuterol positives" - no debunking has actually been done.

[Deleted_Scenes]

E-O may have met his "irrefutable" match.

He cannot match EO in denial. EO is the denial master, denies being wrong, denies contrary opinion and evidence, denies having multiple alt accounts such as the Kalan account...the list goes on.

I'm giving up now, I promise. Nobody really wants to read any of this shít.

[boxing_rocks]

And the whole point of this thread was to distract people from the fact that Canelo is dirty.

[Thomastearns]

And the whole point of this thread was to distract people from the fact that Canelo is dirty.

No, no, no he just trained very hard to increase his stamina naturally and unfortunately ate some dodgy meat.

He certainly didn't embark on some carefully planned long term doping strategy. Obviously no change in physique, anybody can see that. No needle marks, and nothing to do with Goldenboy.

[tiny_acres]

And the whole point of this thread was to distract people from the fact that Canelo is dirty.

No, no, no he just trained very hard to increase his stamina naturally and unfortunately ate some dodgy meat.

He certainly didn't embark on some carefully planned long term doping strategy. Obviously no change in physique, anybody can see that. No needle marks, and nothing to do with Goldenboy.

damn I needed a good laugh

[Enlightened-One]

This is a very interesting article that I hope will enlighten those that possess strong, though uneducated, opinions surrounding PED’s in general.

It also addresses the concerns of those that wrongly believe that “if Canelo was really clean, he would have provided a hair sample!”.

"Debunking the misinformation around Canelo’s clenbuterol positives"

The Hair Test

There has been a push in some quarters to use the “hair test” in order to convict or clear Canelo. To hear it told, this hair test is the answer to every question. In reality, hair testing for clenbuterol isn’t used for a reason; it’s incredibly unreliable.

The amount of clenbuterol that shows up in hair varies massively depending on factors like hair color. One study gave a group of people the same amount of clenbuterol. One participant, a 27-year-old female, showed 23 ng/g of clenbuterol in her hair afterwards. Another participant, also a 27-year-old female, showed 161 ng/g of clenbuterol in her hair. They both took the exact same amount, but one had seven times as much in her sample. The suggested reason for this discrepancy? The women had different hair color. This hair color discrepancy was supported by the other data in the study.




That might sound ridiculous, but other studies have found the same thing.

Another study, with more participants, found that even among subjects with similar hair color, the variation is still large. Despite every subject having hair listed as “brown” or “dark brown”, this study also found significant variation:

The lowest detected amount of clenbuterol in the first segment of hair was 0.43 pg/ng, the largest amount was 4.76 pg/ng. Both of these subjects had hair classed as “brown,” and both took the same amount of clenbuterol in the same way. That’s a difference of an entire order of magnitude. A similar issue was found in the second segments, which ranged from a detected amount of 0.00 pg/ng to 0.86 pg/ng.

Tests that have results varying by so much even under a controlled conditions are not reliable tests. The idea that they would somehow give us the information we need to determine if Canelo accidentally or deliberately ingested clenbuterol is ridiculous.

I strongly recommend that those self-proclaimed "experts" on PED’s and testing in general, who also regularly engage in lengthy heated debates about this subject matter, should click on the above hyperlink and read the article in its entirety, since it appears to debunk many other myths also.

Thoughts?

More Fake News from EO. Not worth the read

Saying I'm wrong is not the same as the same as proving I'm wrong and you won't be able to do the latter.

Try harder kid or STFU!

[Enlightened-One]

There is no evidence to suggest that hair samples can be tested for proof of a fighter using PED's.

That's the part you don't know.

Lack of knowledge of evidence, does not equal proof of no evidence.

As I've said, for zero threshold substances, there is a plethora of evidence to say it DOES work. The argument is around variation in quantities absorbed by hair (which exists for blood and urine too). Even the two highly flawed studies cited in the BLH article don't go as far as to claim hair testing can't give a simple positive/negative result. For that, hair is MORE effective than blood or urine.

There must be a reason forensic toxicology labs around the world routinely use hair testing - and the results of those hair tests are fully admissable in a court of law. Those labs have a legal duty to base their practices on the latest and best science available. If anything, their level of scrutiny would be much higher than a mere sports PED testing lab - WADA accredited or not.

If WADA wish to reject that as a testing method, that's their prerogative, but that doesn't mean those tests are junk, and the two papers cited utterly fail in claiming that.

As things stand, neither you nor I have provided any research that stands up to scientific scrutiny. Due to that, all we can really do is analyse the actions of those who would have access to the data. WADA reject hair testing, but other organisations readily accept it.

Therefore, without any other evidence to bring to the table, you can not (with any degree of certainty), make the case that hair testing would be unsuitable for this purpose.

Going back to the most basic level - "Debunking the misinformation around Canelo's clenbuterol positives" - no debunking has actually been done.

There's no evidence. Pretend otherwise if you want to be dishonest.

The real-world facts will always silence your argument.

Keep trying though.

[Enlightened-One]

.

[boxing_rocks]

Boo-boo-boo-boo-boo .........

[Enlightened-One]

Boo-boo-boo-boo-boo .........

Thanks for admitting to being proven wrong!

[caldo2025]

This is a very interesting article that I hope will enlighten those that possess strong, though uneducated, opinions surrounding PED’s in general.

It also addresses the concerns of those that wrongly believe that “if Canelo was really clean, he would have provided a hair sample!”.

"Debunking the misinformation around Canelo’s clenbuterol positives"

The Hair Test

There has been a push in some quarters to use the “hair test” in order to convict or clear Canelo. To hear it told, this hair test is the answer to every question. In reality, hair testing for clenbuterol isn’t used for a reason; it’s incredibly unreliable.

The amount of clenbuterol that shows up in hair varies massively depending on factors like hair color. One study gave a group of people the same amount of clenbuterol. One participant, a 27-year-old female, showed 23 ng/g of clenbuterol in her hair afterwards. Another participant, also a 27-year-old female, showed 161 ng/g of clenbuterol in her hair. They both took the exact same amount, but one had seven times as much in her sample. The suggested reason for this discrepancy? The women had different hair color. This hair color discrepancy was supported by the other data in the study.




That might sound ridiculous, but other studies have found the same thing.

Another study, with more participants, found that even among subjects with similar hair color, the variation is still large. Despite every subject having hair listed as “brown” or “dark brown”, this study also found significant variation:

The lowest detected amount of clenbuterol in the first segment of hair was 0.43 pg/ng, the largest amount was 4.76 pg/ng. Both of these subjects had hair classed as “brown,” and both took the same amount of clenbuterol in the same way. That’s a difference of an entire order of magnitude. A similar issue was found in the second segments, which ranged from a detected amount of 0.00 pg/ng to 0.86 pg/ng.

Tests that have results varying by so much even under a controlled conditions are not reliable tests. The idea that they would somehow give us the information we need to determine if Canelo accidentally or deliberately ingested clenbuterol is ridiculous.

I strongly recommend that those self-proclaimed "experts" on PED’s and testing in general, who also regularly engage in lengthy heated debates about this subject matter, should click on the above hyperlink and read the article in its entirety, since it appears to debunk many other myths also.

Thoughts?

More Fake News from EO. Not worth the read

Saying I'm wrong is not the same as the same as proving I'm wrong and you won't be able to do the latter.

Try harder kid or STFU!

What language is that? No idea what you are saying, Hoss. Stick to cutting and pasting everything like you normally do. It’s more legible.

[boxing_rocks]

[tiny_acres]

In my opinion he has a lot to hide. If they keep testing them he will prove it wasn't tainted meat

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

In my opinion he has a lot to hide. If they keep testing them he will prove it wasn't tainted meat

- Yo, Weensy you got so teensy I can't see nor hear you, but I can still smell your nanogram of fecal just as sure as my old buddy, Billy Shakespeare informed me than a nano gram of fecal still smells of fecal by any other name.

The comedic value of this thread is priceless, sorta like watching endless slo-mo loops of Tiny Tim Tip Toeing Thru The Tulips to marry Miss Vicki on the Johnny Carson show back when.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8gloxeHOLk

Yeah, Canelo volunteered the hair sample that you nanogram IQs were screaming about, and it still ain't enough. MLB/NBA/NFL wouldn't let Miss Vicki within' spittin' distance, but now she's the Queen Bee running boxing for you fecalforms see your fondest wishes come true.

Guy rats out his client list in a plea bargain to reduce his felony sentence of money laundering and steroid peddling, yet proved to be incapable of finding new cheats for the FBI such that they stopped using him.

https://www.si.com/vault/2017/06/27/victor-conte

Congrats to you ninny nanograms who can only operate in you alternative universe where you defy the laws of logic and logistics to pack a megagram of fecal into your yoctogram craniums. You've created A Brave New World order where vacuous suits can now order equality in women's track and field by forcing this woman who has passed dozens of their sex tests and drug tests to ingest their poisonous meds so as to reduce her beyond normal testosterone count.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... s-in-women

Meanwhile, Miss Vicki still trolling for nitwits to get on his designer PEDS designed specifically to pass VADA testing, your felon vetted clean boxing program. Nothing like watching a good gaggle of gelded gerbils comes together for a public cluster fest, almost as good a roided bunch of baboons in a barrel.

[boxing_rocks]

Whatever that BroughtonRulesRefuge dude is on, must be very good.

[Counter-puncher]

Whatever that BroughtonRulesRefuge dude is on, must be very good.

He mostly seems drunk on a misplaced sense that the bizarre brand of verbosity he displays is some kind of eloquent wit and wisdom, although I wouldn't rule out decent quantities of psychotropic drugs.

[tiny_acres]

Whatever that BroughtonRulesRefuge dude is on, must be very good.

He mostly seems drunk on a misplaced sense that the bizarre brand of verbosity he displays is some kind of eloquent wit and wisdom, although I wouldn't rule out decent quantities of psychotropic drugs.

I just ignore him. He never adds anything to any debate. Even the worse trolls have some redeeming qualities. He's below them

[Rob3_142]

In my opinion he has a lot to hide. If they keep testing them he will prove it wasn't tainted meat

- Yo, Weensy you got so teensy I can't see nor hear you, but I can still smell your nanogram of fecal just as sure as my old buddy, Billy Shakespeare informed me than a nano gram of fecal still smells of fecal by any other name.

The comedic value of this thread is priceless, sorta like watching endless slo-mo loops of Tiny Tim Tip Toeing Thru The Tulips to marry Miss Vicki on the Johnny Carson show back when.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8gloxeHOLk

Yeah, Canelo volunteered the hair sample that you nanogram IQs were screaming about, and it still ain't enough. MLB/NBA/NFL wouldn't let Miss Vicki within' spittin' distance, but now she's the Queen Bee running boxing for you fecalforms see your fondest wishes come true.

Guy rats out his client list in a plea bargain to reduce his felony sentence of money laundering and steroid peddling, yet proved to be incapable of finding new cheats for the FBI such that they stopped using him.

https://www.si.com/vault/2017/06/27/victor-conte

Congrats to you ninny nanograms who can only operate in you alternative universe where you defy the laws of logic and logistics to pack a megagram of fecal into your yoctogram craniums. You've created A Brave New World order where vacuous suits can now order equality in women's track and field by forcing this woman who has passed dozens of their sex tests and drug tests to ingest their poisonous meds so as to reduce her beyond normal testosterone count.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... s-in-women

Meanwhile, Miss Vicki still trolling for nitwits to get on his designer PEDS designed specifically to pass VADA testing, your felon vetted clean boxing program. Nothing like watching a good gaggle of gelded gerbils comes together for a public cluster fest, almost as good a roided bunch of baboons in a barrel.

It took a long time to produce a post that says absolutely nothing.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- In the gathering dusk of the fallen sun, a freshly evolved new species of shambling Rat emerges. This is not your Daddy's African Savannah or Patagonian Highlands, but rather between double steel gates at each end of four lane strip of asphalt servicing the backside of two massive Vegas Hotel and Casinos, unseen and thus unknown by tourists and visitors.

Rattus BALCO VADA, otherwise known as King Rat, is believed to be the first genetic interchange between species brought about by random mutation, but thus far has been elusive so no studies exist save this brief security camera interlude. Before dusk is swallowed by the moonless night, this King of Rats balances on a scaly prehensile tail, his lengthy whiskers quivering as telepathic receivers as overdeveloped yellow incisors gleam in his transmission of telepathic orders. His pack emerge from strewn refuse to engage a joyous dance of death around his towering presence, working into a frenzy. With the precise timing of an assassin, King Rat leaps upon The Chosen One with a single chomp, simultaneously severing his spinal cord and jugular, hoisting him up to greedily suck out life's greatest treat pumping into him as cowering minions grovel before his terrible magnificence. Upon satiation, he sends out the feasting signal as they leap upon their twitching comrade destined to be their shredded appetizer in this multicourse gormand environment to fatten themselves up for whenever the next set of King Rat orders are issued.

Copulatory female rats have yet to have been observed, so more studies are needed suss breeding habits and genetic makeup, but given the historical close relationship of Rattus with Homo Sapiens, nothing more need be speculated for now other than ordering ever more yoctogram extortions for metabolism research.

[Badhusker]

As far as Clenbuterol goes, if a hair sample shows any evidence present, they should be banned. The amount may vary but that doesn't matter if the tolerance levels are zero.

If you test positive, you are guilty no matter what test they choose to use, or what meat you ate, etc. Canelo is getting off light compared to Erik Morales, for the same offense.

[dickbelden]

http://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/id/2 ... evaporated