one for the aussies.....

Les Darcy · Post by **Les Darcy** » 21 Apr 2006, 05:51

any of you done an aussie top 25 p4p list before?

Migz · Post by **Migz** » 21 Apr 2006, 07:22

no....and i doubt i will

Les Darcy · Post by **Les Darcy** » 21 Apr 2006, 08:17

no....and i doubt i will

would you mind picking my list apart when i am done?
i have got my top 5 out, the rest is a real pain as to where to put everyone

1- les darcy
2- jeff fenech
3- kostya tszyu
4- dave sands
5- jimmy carruthers

the next lot is bothering me somewhat, i have rose, fammo, carroll, mattioli, thompson, patrick, mundine (snr not jnr), young griffo, richards, michael, palmer and harding and i am not too sure where to stick them
any major problems so far?

Migz · Post by **Migz** » 21 Apr 2006, 08:25

Les Darcy wrote:
no....and i doubt i will
would you mind picking my list apart when i am done?
i have got my top 5 out, the rest is a real pain as to where to put everyone

1- les darcy
2- jeff fenech
3- kostya tszyu
4- dave sands
5- jimmy carruthers

the next lot is bothering me somewhat, i have rose, fammo, carroll, mattioli, thompson, patrick, mundine (snr not jnr), young griffo, richards, michael, palmer and harding and i am not too sure where to stick them
any major problems so far?

well being a fellow aussie id tell u ur list is correct altho i would also have difficulty on wer to place all these top aussie fighter and one fighter u defintely missed out on was Lionel Rose he should be somewer in top three in my opinion. i would have difficulty on wer to rank fenech or tszyu i would have trouble on who to rank over each other but at the end ill say fenech over tszyu simplky because i like him better and three titles in three divisions is quite and achievement!!
ill get back too you soon with my top ten

Les Darcy · Post by **Les Darcy** » 21 Apr 2006, 08:32

rose is pretty much a shoe-in for 6th spot, but i cant have him any higher then the others, while his win over harada was great, the decisions in his title defences were controversial, and the longevity of his career makes me put sands and carruthers ahead of him, i would pick carruthers to outpoint lionel over 15 if they fought each other and i think carruthers had a better title reign and he just looks to me to be the better skilled boxer

Migz · Post by **Migz** » 21 Apr 2006, 08:40

Les Darcy wrote:
no....and i doubt i will
would you mind picking my list apart when i am done?
i have got my top 5 out, the rest is a real pain as to where to put everyone

1- les darcy
2- jeff fenech
3- kostya tszyu
4- dave sands
5- jimmy carruthers

the next lot is bothering me somewhat, i have rose, fammo, carroll, mattioli, thompson, patrick, mundine (snr not jnr), young griffo, richards, michael, palmer and harding and i am not too sure where to stick them
any major problems so far?

heres my top ten
Fenech
Tszyu
carruthers
Rose
les darcy
dave sands
jeff harding
famechon
jack carrol
ellis

my list isnt perfect and is actually quite rushed it off the top of my head so sorri if ive made any bad mistakes i also felt i needed to include Joe Bugner also mundine snr i hear was a top aussie fighter but unfortunatley i havent seen many of his fights!!

-KOKid- · Post by **-KOKid-** » 21 Apr 2006, 10:30

I haven't done a top P4P list over Australian fighters as I don't know Australian boxing history well enough.
I do, however, find it very interesting and have recently purchased several books on Australian boxing history to study.
I'll get back to doing a list after researching it.

Les Darcy is one of my all-time favorite fighters.

-KOKid-

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 21 Apr 2006, 10:51

Did Peter Jackson become an Australian citizen? He's often listed as being Australian.

-KOKid- · Post by **-KOKid-** » 21 Apr 2006, 13:06

I've seen him listed as danish too as the island of St.Croix was under Danish rule at the time he was born and lived there.
Jackson spoke fluent Danish and, unless he changed his citizenship, was considered Danish.

-KOKid-

Les Darcy · Post by **Les Darcy** » 21 Apr 2006, 23:57

Migz wrote:
heres my top ten
Fenech
Tszyu
carruthers
Rose
les darcy
dave sands
jeff harding
famechon
jack carrol
ellis

my list isnt perfect and is actually quite rushed it off the top of my head so sorri if ive made any bad mistakes i also felt i needed to include Joe Bugner also mundine snr i hear was a top aussie fighter but unfortunatley i havent seen many of his fights!!

i think its a good effort, i have a couple of problems, the main one being that darcy isn't in at least the top 3, i know rose and carruthers won proper world championships, but darcy was still the best middleweight in the world at the time he was fighting, many experts around at the time think darcy could of won the world heavyweight championship, not just the middleweight crown
my other problem is with lester ellis, he was around at a time of alphabet titles and i think if he had come along in another era he would of struggled to get where he did, i would have mundine, ferreira and thompson all ahead of him despite none of them winning world titles, if ellis deserves a spot then i think barry michael has to be in there, i can understand why you have harding in there as well although i don't agree for the same reasons as ellis, i think some of the fighters from the 30s like richards, palmer and henneberry should all go above him, and sands over rose and fammo, again i don't agree but there is a good case for it, it's good to see carroll in there as well, other then those 3 disagreements i think its a bloody good effort for a rushed list

my 15 so far:

1- les darcy
2- jeff fenech
3- kostya tszyu
4- dave sands
5- jimmy carruthers
6- lionel rose
7- jack carroll
8- johnny famechon
9- young griffo
10- hector thompson
11- tony mundine
12- rocky mattioli
13- vic patrick
14- ron richards
15- barry michael

thunderfromdownunder · Post by **thunderfromdownunder** » 22 Apr 2006, 05:12

i'll post my top ten or fifteen soon. i'll have to do abit of research first.
top 25 may be a bit to hard
should be fun but, good thread

Trent · Post by **Trent** » 23 Apr 2006, 05:21

1) Dave sands
2) kostya Tszyu
3)Jeff Fenech
4)Jimmy Carruthers
5)Les Darcy
6)lionel Rose
7)Johnny Fenechon
8)Jeff Harding
9)Vic Patrick
10) Tony Mundine

its a hard one and somthin im going to think about for a bit. This list will probly change as i hear more opinions. I would have loved to have seen Vic Patrick fighting for a world title. he gave Fred Dawson a good fight even knocking him down in his prime.

Migz · Post by **Migz** » 23 Apr 2006, 05:28

all these lists are great and all contain the right fighters the main problem is placing them

Migz · Post by **Migz** » 23 Apr 2006, 05:33

ohh and Les Darcy ive now changed my views on Les Darcy lol after watching a few of his bouts and reviewing his record he goes at about number 3 in my list ill post my established list in a couple weeks

adspath · Post by **adspath** » 23 Apr 2006, 09:34

Kostya Tszyu definately at no. 2...in my own opinion i'd love to be number one but i definately see him as no.2 for sure

Migz · Post by **Migz** » 24 Apr 2006, 02:18

thats were ive got him in my list as number 2...the main dispute is to were jeff and kostya stand on the list should jeff be over kostya or kostya over jeff?

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 24 Apr 2006, 04:55

This is my list the top 10 are in order.

Fenech
Tszyu
Dave Sands
Rose
Darcy
Curruthers
Famechon
Harding
Mattioli
Mundine Snr

Next ten in not in order
Griffo
Mundine Jnr
Green
Ellis
Patrick
Thompson
Carrol
Richards
Peden
Darchinian
Micheal

Now i will look for another 4 and put a top 25 together, Its going to take a few days.

Migz · Post by **Migz** » 24 Apr 2006, 05:41

Ben Keilty wrote:This is my list the top 10 are in order.

Fenech
Tszyu
Dave Sands
Rose
Darcy
Curruthers
Famechon
Harding
Mattioli
Mundine Snr

Next ten in not in order
Griffo
Mundine Jnr
Green
Ellis
Patrick
Thompson
Carrol
Richards
Peden
Darchinian
Micheal

Now i will look for another 4 and put a top 25 together, Its going to take a few days.

you rating guys like peden, mundine jnr, green you cant really be seriouse about there inclusion in this list...looks like you need a little more research

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 24 Apr 2006, 06:40

Migz wrote:
Ben Keilty wrote:This is my list the top 10 are in order.

Fenech
Tszyu
Dave Sands
Rose
Darcy
Curruthers
Famechon
Harding
Mattioli
Mundine Snr

Next ten in not in order
Griffo
Mundine Jnr
Green
Ellis
Patrick
Thompson
Carrol
Richards
Peden
Darchinian
Micheal

Now i will look for another 4 and put a top 25 together, Its going to take a few days.
you rating guys like peden, mundine jnr, green you cant really be seriouse about there inclusion in this list...looks like you need a little more research

Ive put them in they have all won a title , Ive been looking and thinking allday and they deserve to be mentioned. Guys like Barry Micheal and Lester Ellis are no better than the 3 you mentioned and they are in there so i don't really have a problem puting them in the top 25 probably around 20-25. Its easy to look back with rose coloured glasses and say that there was only one champ and no sanctioning bodys in the past, But the truth is that a lot of the top 25 fighters from this country never won a title and where probably only top 10 fighters in there primes.
I tried to compare what fighters like Mundine Snr and the older fighters done on the world stage that was better than Green Mundine and Peden and really if Mundine Snr was around today he may have won a Middle weight title but there's no way he would have beat guys like Hopkins or Taylor so i don't think he is that far better than his son to be honest.

Migz · Post by **Migz** » 24 Apr 2006, 06:45

Ben Keilty wrote:
Migz wrote:
Ben Keilty wrote:This is my list the top 10 are in order.

Fenech
Tszyu
Dave Sands
Rose
Darcy
Curruthers
Famechon
Harding
Mattioli
Mundine Snr

Next ten in not in order
Griffo
Mundine Jnr
Green
Ellis
Patrick
Thompson
Carrol
Richards
Peden
Darchinian
Micheal

Now i will look for another 4 and put a top 25 together, Its going to take a few days.
you rating guys like peden, mundine jnr, green you cant really be seriouse about there inclusion in this list...looks like you need a little more research
Ive put them in they have all won a title , Ive been looking and thinking allday and they deserve to be mentioned. Guys like Barry Micheal and Lester Ellis are no better than the 3 you mentioned and they are in there so i don't really have a problem puting them in the top 25 probably around 20-25. Its easy to look back with rose coloured glasses and say that there was only one champ and no sanctioning bodys in the past, But the truth is that a lot of the top 25 fighters from this country never won a title and where probably only top 10 fighters in there primes.

Fair enuff i respect you answer and you do have a good point... although you have to understand Ellis and Michael are national icons of Australian boxing moreso than guys like peden, mundine or green

Les Darcy · Post by **Les Darcy** » 25 Apr 2006, 04:40

Ben Keilty wrote:
Ive put them in they have all won a title , Ive been looking and thinking allday and they deserve to be mentioned. Guys like Barry Micheal and Lester Ellis are no better than the 3 you mentioned and they are in there so i don't really have a problem puting them in the top 25 probably around 20-25. Its easy to look back with rose coloured glasses and say that there was only one champ and no sanctioning bodys in the past, But the truth is that a lot of the top 25 fighters from this country never won a title and where probably only top 10 fighters in there primes.
I tried to compare what fighters like Mundine Snr and the older fighters done on the world stage that was better than Green Mundine and Peden and really if Mundine Snr was around today he may have won a Middle weight title but there's no way he would have beat guys like Hopkins or Taylor so i don't think he is that far better than his son to be honest.

yeah but put mundine snr in with the super middleweights today and he would do exactly what anthony and danny green have done
wheres ferreira? wheres henneberry? wheres palmer? how about hassen, burns, ramon or gattelari?
you have to understand, simply saying that because they were only top 10 fighters in their prime and didnt win world titles then the likes of peden, green etc are better is crazy, despite winning the title, the current guys today with the exception of kostya and vic are only doing what the old-timers did, being top 10 in those days is just as good as winning a title
i personally dont rate any of the current guys bar kostya (who has all but retired) because their careers arent finished, i could probably make space for the green-mundine winner in the top 20 and darchinyan i'm sure will be one of our greatest fighters, but saying that they are better then some of the guys from the 40s and 50s is just crazy without doing the research, so what if they didnt win a title, times were different, they give world titles out these days

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 25 Apr 2006, 06:36

Les Darcy wrote:
Ben Keilty wrote:
Ive put them in they have all won a title , Ive been looking and thinking allday and they deserve to be mentioned. Guys like Barry Micheal and Lester Ellis are no better than the 3 you mentioned and they are in there so i don't really have a problem puting them in the top 25 probably around 20-25. Its easy to look back with rose coloured glasses and say that there was only one champ and no sanctioning bodys in the past, But the truth is that a lot of the top 25 fighters from this country never won a title and where probably only top 10 fighters in there primes.
I tried to compare what fighters like Mundine Snr and the older fighters done on the world stage that was better than Green Mundine and Peden and really if Mundine Snr was around today he may have won a Middle weight title but there's no way he would have beat guys like Hopkins or Taylor so i don't think he is that far better than his son to be honest.

yeah but put mundine snr in with the super middleweights today and he would do exactly what anthony and danny green have done
wheres ferreira? wheres henneberry? wheres palmer? how about hassen, burns, ramon or gattelari?
you have to understand, simply saying that because they were only top 10 fighters in their prime and didnt win world titles then the likes of peden, green etc are better is crazy, despite winning the title, the current guys today with the exception of kostya and vic are only doing what the old-timers did, being top 10 in those days is just as good as winning a title
i personally dont rate any of the current guys bar kostya (who has all but retired) because their careers arent finished, i could probably make space for the green-mundine winner in the top 20 and darchinyan i'm sure will be one of our greatest fighters, but saying that they are better then some of the guys from the 40s and 50s is just crazy without doing the research, so what if they didnt win a title, times were different, they give world titles out these days

I totally agree that what some of the older fighters did is as good as what Green- Mundine are doing today, but i only thought about that list for a day and it still isn't finished. I only had about 20 fighters there and im sure when its all done i might have to drop a fighter or 2 out of that list.

bollox · Post by **bollox** » 25 Apr 2006, 08:22

It's difficult to do a 'best of' list due to fighters such as Darcy and Griffo (possibly our best defensive fighter ever?) having fought in a totally different galaxy of boxing to the more recent fighters. Do you base it on skill, level of opposition, achievements or all of the above? They're almost impossible to pit against each other

p.s. someone mentioned Charkey Ramon (Dave Ballard). He had the makings of a tremendous fighter then one day just walked away

He made a return to the ring 10 years later as a ref. I have a video of him refereeing a particular fight and an all-in happened. One of fighter's cornermen figured he'd biff Dave the ref. Dave gave him a beauty right hand to go on with

Les Darcy · Post by **Les Darcy** » 25 Apr 2006, 20:56

griffo was fighting in a completely galaxy of boxing as you said but i dont think the same can be said about darcy, he was fighting from 1911-1916 and he beat most of the best middleweights of that time period and all of the ones he could get in the ring, i think if people do the reading they will see why he is our greatest fighter, he was considered along with bradman as one of our greatest sportsmen, he deserves at least a top 3 spot and the only two i could have above him are tszyu and fenech, its good to see people ranking sands where he is but if sands gets there its based on who didnt fight him as much as who he beat and darcy should be above him because he beat the better opponents

ps- yeah i have seen that clip of ramon, that fight was actually in the sydney opera house i have been told, ramons fight with pat dwyer is great as well