SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[Cojimar 1946]

During Klitschko's reign from 2006 to 2015 the division had Wladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury, Kubrat Pulev, Deontay Wilder, Alexander Povetkin, Ruslan Chagaev, Tony Thompson, David Haye, Eddie Chambers, Chris Arreola, etc. That certainly seems like a pretty deep era. I think it can match the 90s.

[Kalan]

I would add the names of 3 Heavyweight Champions to that list...

Sultan Ibragimov boxed the ass off Briggs who had just beaten Sergie Liackhovich.... Ibragimov only lost to Wladimir.

Chris Bryd went undefeated between his 2 bad losses to Wladimir Klitschko in 2000 and 2006... He beat Holyfield, McCline, Oquendo, and Williamson in that stretch... He was one of the slickest southpaws ever and beat Tua.

Sam Peter was a tremendous puncher... He won all his fights between losses to Wladimir and Vitali to go 30-1 .... He beat James Toney twice... He knocked out Oleg Maskaev very easily... and he beat Jameel McCline.

[Ambling Alp II]

During Klitschko's reign from 2006 to 2015 the division had Wladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury, Kubrat Pulev, Deontay Wilder, Alexander Povetkin, Ruslan Chagaev, Tony Thompson, David Haye, Eddie Chambers, Chris Arreola, etc. That certainly seems like a pretty deep era. I think it can match the 90s.

Not even remotely close. Thats a really weak era.

Lets use your 1950s/1970s fighters logic with the 1990s.
A 1990s fighter (a mediocre fighter at that, Ross Purrity) beat Wladimir Klitschko. Therefore the 1990s were better. The end.

[Kalan]

By Alp's simplistic reasoning the 1970's must have been trash -- since your worst losses are all that matter.

After all....little Leon Spinks beat massive favorite Ali in the 70's and lost by 1st round KO to Gerry Coetzee -- and Little Leon got KO'd by every other half decent fighter he met in the 80's....Coetzee later got trounced by Page, Bruno, Tate, Weaver etc... Ali's jaw was shattered in his loss to Ken Norton... Norton got knocked out by big underdog 188-pound Jose Luis Garcia who had 12 wins. Norton suffered several swift KO defeats... Ali ruled most of the 70's and fought many crappy challengers who the media panned as ridiculous and unworthy of a Title fight... Both Klitschko's had higher win ratios and higher KO ratios than Ali finished with and they both fought to age 41... Joshua may fight that long as well.

You take a boxer's entire record into account... People say Ali peaked in his 20's -- Wladimir peaked in his 30's...

Here's a question for thinking people.

Is it better to improve your skills your entire career ... and finish on a high note at 41 with an ATG performance???

Or is it better for your skills to deteriorate rapidly in your 30's ... and finish battered and damaged at 39???

[Cojimar 1946]

There are many reasons I think the 70s are overrated. Patterson beating Bonavena is just one of them along with Cooney beating Young, Lyle, and Norton, Shavers losing to Mercado and Cobb, Leon Spinks becoming champ, etc.

[Ambling Alp II]

That was the one that you kept harping on. Of course by itself Purrity beating Klitschko doesn't mean a whole. Though it means more than Patterson beating Bonavena. I was just using your own silly logic against you.
You have made up your mind what eras are the best. Then you pick and choose evidence that supports your case and ignore anything that that contradicts it.
You should research something first, then come to conclusions. And don't ignore something just because it doesn't neatly fit your opinions.

Leon Spinks was never even close to being the best heavyweight. He just happened to be in the right place in the right time against an old, out of shape Ali.
Just find some fight where the guys were way past lost to younger fighters.
There are tons of case where a guy from the 1970s beat an older fighter who fought primarily in the 1960s. And the 1960s guys beat washed up fighters from the 1950s and so on. Doesn't mean a thing.

Shavers was past it when he fought Mercado and Cobb.
Can't believe that you would bring up Cooney beating Norton, Young, and Lyle. They were all well past it by then. They had not been top contenders for a while by the time they fought Cooney. Those fights mean nothing.
Do you really have that little understanding of the sport?

[Cojimar 1946]

Ali was showing signs of decline long before Spinks got to him. He didn't just deteriorate massively overnight. If the 70s were as strong as some people claim I would have expected some of the prime contenders he fought from 1975 to 1978 to have beaten him. Ron Lyle, Joe Bugner, Jimmy Young, and Earnie Shavers were all in their primes and aside from Lyle were all younger than Ali (Shavers by 2 years, Young by 6 years, Bugner by 8 years). The fact that a badly diminished Ali was still able to hold on against these young prime contenders suggests to me they are overrated. Ali was often out of shape for these fights and seems very easy to hit on film.

The 90s seems better than the 70s in that there was better depth and division stayed strong throughout the decade. The late 90s were still very good and certainly far superior to the late 70s.

[Kalan]

Can't believe that you would bring up Cooney beating Norton, Young, and Lyle. They were all well past it by then. They had not been top contenders for a while by the time they fought Cooney. Those fights mean nothing.

Norton was ranked by Ring Magazine before he was shittcanned in 54 seconds by Cooney.

[Cojimar 1946]

The top 6 heavyweights of Klitschko's reign were
1.Wladimir Klitschko
2.Vitali Klitschko
3.Tyson Fury
4.Anthony Joshua
5.Alexander Povetkin
6.Deontay Wilder
While the era may have lacked depth compared to some other eras the top 6 guys seem like they could easily match the top 6 of most other eras.

[jas80s]

By Alp's simplistic reasoning the 1970's must have been trash -- since your worst losses are all that matter.

After all....little Leon Spinks beat massive favorite Ali in the 70's and lost by 1st round KO to Gerry Coetzee -- and Little Leon got KO'd by every other half decent fighter he met in the 80's....Coetzee later got trounced by Page, Bruno, Tate, Weaver etc... Ali's jaw was shattered in his loss to Ken Norton... Norton got knocked out by big underdog 188-pound Jose Luis Garcia who had 12 wins. Norton suffered several swift KO defeats... Ali ruled most of the 70's and fought many crappy challengers who the media panned as ridiculous and unworthy of a Title fight... Both Klitschko's had higher win ratios and higher KO ratios than Ali finished with and they both fought to age 41... Joshua may fight that long as well.

You take a boxer's entire record into account... People say Ali peaked in his 20's -- Wladimir peaked in his 30's...

Here's a question for thinking people.

Is it better to improve your skills your entire career ... and finish on a high note at 41 with an ATG performance???

Or is it better for your skills to deteriorate rapidly in your 30's ... and finish battered and damaged at 39???

Yet, it would appear that you yourself sometimes fall into the trap of not taking a fighter's full record into account. Below is your take on the careers of Holyfield, Tyson, and Holmes.

Also, to be fair, I think you are overlooking the fact that Alp was taking a jab at Cojimar and his argument regarding the 70s perhaps being overrated based on Patterson's win over Bonavena.

/quote]

True about Liston. But those size guys avoid the division now. How many of the top 20-30 guys in the division now, would even look passable against Holyfield, Tyson, or Holmes? [/quote]

As far as Holyfield, Tyson, and Holmes?... Holyfield lost his trilogy to Punching Bag Bowe.... Tyson got beaten up and knocked out by Big Buster Douglas... And Holmes barely got past Carl "The Truth" Williams... Somebody with Wladimir or Joshua's weapons would bomb Holmes out if the inept Williams gave him what for...
[/quote]

[Kalan]

By Alp's simplistic reasoning the 1970's must have been trash -- since your worst losses are all that matter.

After all....little Leon Spinks beat massive favorite Ali in the 70's and lost by 1st round KO to Gerry Coetzee -- and Little Leon got KO'd by every other half decent fighter he met in the 80's....Coetzee later got trounced by Page, Bruno, Tate, Weaver etc... Ali's jaw was shattered in his loss to Ken Norton... Norton got knocked out by big underdog 188-pound Jose Luis Garcia who had 12 wins. Norton suffered several swift KO defeats... Ali ruled most of the 70's and fought many crappy challengers who the media panned as ridiculous and unworthy of a Title fight... Both Klitschko's had higher win ratios and higher KO ratios than Ali finished with and they both fought to age 41... Joshua may fight that long as well.

You take a boxer's entire record into account... People say Ali peaked in his 20's -- Wladimir peaked in his 30's...

Here's a question for thinking people.

Is it better to improve your skills your entire career ... and finish on a high note at 41 with an ATG performance???

Or is it better for your skills to deteriorate rapidly in your 30's ... and finish battered and damaged at 39???

Yet, it would appear that you yourself sometimes fall into the trap of not taking a fighter's full record into account. Below is your take on the careers of Holyfield, Tyson, and Holmes.

Also, to be fair, I think you are overlooking the fact that Alp was taking a jab at Cojimar and his argument regarding the 70s perhaps being overrated based on Patterson's win over Bonavena.

/quote]

True about Liston. But those size guys avoid the division now. How many of the top 20-30 guys in the division now, would even look passable against Holyfield, Tyson, or Holmes?

As far as Holyfield, Tyson, and Holmes?... Holyfield lost his trilogy to Punching Bag Bowe.... Tyson got beaten up and knocked out by Big Buster Douglas... And Holmes barely got past Carl "The Truth" Williams... Somebody with Wladimir or Joshua's weapons would bomb Holmes out if the inept Williams gave him what for...
[/quote]
[/quote]

If you review Tyson's record he reached his skills zenith in his early 20's when he was bombed out by Big Bad Buster... Mike was younger than Lewis and Holyfield ...... Holyfield was around his peak when he lost the Bowe trilogy.

Holmes didn't meet anyone during his career who could jab with him. Williams actually had the patience and timing to wait for an opening and he stayed with Holmes... The fight showed that a real tall boxer with a quick and brutal jab and a smashing right counter (Wladimir & Josh) could get their jab and right counter on Holmes.

[MrGuy]

Good enough to stop getting smashed with left hooks... knocked on his ass... and getting his jaw shattered.

Good enough to develop a body attack and inside game and stop grabbing and holding all the time.

Good enough so that he didn't have to lay on the ropes getting the living shitt beaten out of him.... That's for starters.

How good could Lomachenko get? .... He's still working at it.. That's how you get better.

No fighter is perfect. He was the greatest. Wlad wasn't and Lomanchenko wont be. You do realize the grabbing, laying on the ropes broken jaw guy was out his prime don't you? Put the 90s top guys in Wlads era and they dominate forever like he did. Even if you exclude his gaping eye would Vitali was,well on his way to running out of gas against a fat old version of Lewis.

No fighter is perfect, but FEW World Champions got battered as badly as Ali did or were as easy to hit... The K Bros and Joshua can defend themselves better than Ali could in an era where Boxing has greater global competition and there are many more Heavyweights... A huge slice of the world didn't even have Professional Boxing in the 60's/70's.

Ali was not the greatest and he got hit all the time... Lomachenko takes WAY fewer punches and lands a bigger differential than anyone in Boxing history.. Vitali had plenty of gas.. He was out landing Lewis by a big margin and leading on all scorecards -- despite being fouled and fouled and fouled some more with a corrupt referee helping him.

Again Ali wasn't easy to hit until he was past it. Joshua hasn't fought past his prime, nor has he fought anyone of the caliber of some of Ali's opponents. Greater global competition doesn't mean things are better now. Wlad basically competed in one of the worst eras ever. It was very global. The K brothers basically fought nobody except for Vitali taking on Lewis. You know why Wlad never got hit.

[MrGuy]

During Klitschko's reign from 2006 to 2015 the division had Wladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury, Kubrat Pulev, Deontay Wilder, Alexander Povetkin, Ruslan Chagaev, Tony Thompson, David Haye, Eddie Chambers, Chris Arreola, etc. That certainly seems like a pretty deep era. I think it can match the 90s.

Not even remotely close. Thats a really weak era.

Lets use your 1950s/1970s fighters logic with the 1990s.
A 1990s fighter (a mediocre fighter at that, Ross Purrity) beat Wladimir Klitschko. Therefore the 1990s were better. The end.

[Kalan]

So Buster Douglas... A 42-1 underdog smashes MIke Tyson...

So Leon Spinks... A 10-1 underdog beats Ali up...

So Ken Norton.... Another 10-1 underdog beats Ali up...

So Hasim Rahman.... A 20-1 underdog flattens Lewis....

So Andrew Golota... The clumsiest and most hittable Heavyweight ever born beats the Hell out of Bowe

So Chris Byrd... A weak little pea shooter boxes the ass off Holyfield

So John Ruiz... A feather hitter who got insulted if you missed him with a punch -- floors Holyfield and beats him

What a bunch of ridiculous swingers.... None of them ended their careers at age 41 with an ATG performance

[Cojimar 1946]

Many of Ali's opponents would be hugely undersized today and some would be no more than cruiserweights. Given the lack of success of fighters of such size in the heavyweight division since Holyfield-Bowe more than 25 years ago it seems reasonable to doubt they could compete today. Why haven't any of them managed to reach the top in more than 20 years?

It's also worth noting that light heavyweights used to enjoy considerable success at heavyweight but in more recent years they generally do not opt to move up and those that do generally do not do well.

[Ambling Alp II]

The top 6 heavyweights of Klitschko's reign were
1.Wladimir Klitschko
2.Vitali Klitschko
3.Tyson Fury
4.Anthony Joshua
5.Alexander Povetkin
6.Deontay Wilder
While the era may have lacked depth compared to some other eras the top 6 guys seem like they could easily match the top 6 of most other eras.

wow that is quite a list of well tested veterans. Take out Wladimir, and none of them have fought each other. (Two of them struggled to beat an ancient Klitschko) Better competition makes a better fighter. there is a lot of era where they would have not matched up well at all. And no, you don't need to list weights.

[Ambling Alp II]

During Klitschko's reign from 2006 to 2015 the division had Wladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury, Kubrat Pulev, Deontay Wilder, Alexander Povetkin, Ruslan Chagaev, Tony Thompson, David Haye, Eddie Chambers, Chris Arreola, etc. That certainly seems like a pretty deep era. I think it can match the 90s.

Not even remotely close. Thats a really weak era.

Lets use your 1950s/1970s fighters logic with the 1990s.
A 1990s fighter (a mediocre fighter at that, Ross Purrity) beat Wladimir Klitschko. Therefore the 1990s were better. The end.

It's amazing the straws he will grab onto.
Now we are supposed to consider Ali beating Lyle and Bugner in 1975 as somehow evidence that the 1970s was not that good. wtf.
I mean Ali might be on the same level as some legend like Povetkin, but all in all a loss to Ali should not damn an entire era.

He thinks Cooney's wins over a way past it Norton (ranked 10th) (Young (unranked), and even Lyle (who had not been ranked in years) is some sort of evidence that the 70s were not that good.

Yet it doesn't seem to occur to him that Cooney got crushed by an ancient Foreman. Or that ancient Foreman won the title when he was 46. Or that an ancient Holmes (another 1970s fighter) beat Mercer and almost McCall.

Nope that conflicts with his argument so he ignores it.

[Cojimar 1946]

Fighters of previous eras didn't have to deal with skilled super heavyweights. How are they going to manage fighting someone 40-50 pounds heavier who also possesses considerable skill and athleticism?

Since the 60s the top heavyweights have gotten progressively bigger and bigger and we see less and less success by small heavyweights. You can explain one or two incidents as an anomaly but if you look at it objectively there is a clear pattern that shows big heavyweights increasingly dominating the division in a way that never happened prior to the 60s.

[Cojimar 1946]

The problem with the Cooney fights with Lyle, Young, and Norton is that they provide extremely compelling evidence that Cooney would have beaten them prime for prime. If a fighter slightly past their prime gets brutally demolished in that matter that strongly suggests they would lose even if they were at their best. Despite being past their prime fighters generally maintain their durability for a while. They don't suddenly lose their ability to take a shot. If these guys were capable of beating Cooney at their best I would have expected them to beat Cooney even at this stage or at least put up a much better fight. Mike Tyson was farther past his best against Lewis than these guys were against Cooney and still absorbed a tremendous beating over 8 rounds before he finally collapsed.

As far as Foreman-Moorer goes Foreman ranks much higher among 70s heavyweights than Moorer does among 90s heavyweights so I don't find Moorer losing to be shocking nor does it make it me think the 70s match the 90s. Against someone like Lennox Lewis Foreman would lose badly.

[BoxBuzz]

I have to tell you......THE PERSON means a lot in discussions like this.

For Example....Leon Spinks worked very hard to move up, and was not ready for prime time. He was at his best for one fight.....and lost his center and spiraled out of control as a person......and could never again show any hint of his best.


I knew the Spinks Bros.....never knew many that I can say were better folks. Both just seriously good people. Hard working, honest.
Leon was a partier and a fragile psyche. His brother was a lot more centered and sensible. Leon flew by the seat of his pants, and a lot of fun, but clearly easily overwhelmed. Mike could have been a air force pilot....he was that focused and centered.

Sometimes it's the fight in the dog.....and NOT the dog in the fight.

[BoxBuzz]

So Chris Byrd... A weak little pea shooter boxes the ass off Holyfield and forces Vitali to say "uncle"



What a ridiculous swinger....

Thus spoke Zarathustra

[Kalan]

So Chris Byrd... A weak little pea shooter boxes the ass off Holyfield and forces Vitali to say "uncle"

Byrd had nothing to do with it.... Byrd took a tremendous shittkicking from Wlad while hardly landing a head shot.

Byrd was way behind and didn't have a prayer against anyone named Klitschko if they weren't gravely injured.... VK's shoulder started giving him a lot of pain in the 2nd round and eventually the rotator cuff tore into 2 separate pieces.... Vitali thought it was a career threatening injury so he quit... In both his losses Vitali was winning the fights on all scorecards... He was never outboxed by anyone in his life.... It was like Liston quitting with the fight dead even... Liston was killing the shoulder so he decided to quit.. He had a rematch clause with Clay.

Ali quit in the corner with injuries as well....in his case head injuries... At least Vitali didn't end up a basket case.

[MrGuy]

Fighters of previous eras didn't have to deal with skilled super heavyweights. How are they going to manage fighting someone 40-50 pounds heavier who also possesses considerable skill and athleticism?

Since the 60s the top heavyweights have gotten progressively bigger and bigger and we see less and less success by small heavyweights. You can explain one or two incidents as an anomaly but if you look at it objectively there is a clear pattern that shows big heavyweights increasingly dominating the division in a way that never happened prior to the 60s.

Where are all these skilled super heavyweights? Fighters like Lewis and Vitali are anomalies. The vast majority of these guys 20-40 pounds heavier than Ali, Tyson, or Holmes are target practice. Most don't have skill or athleticism. I'm thinking the size of the average heavyweight from Holmes era until now, isn't a big difference. The 90s were overrated. But no way are Fury, Pulev, Thompson, Areola, and Chagaev on par with that era.

[Kalan]

That is more of your BULLCRAP as usual BuzzBox.... There are hundreds of documented cases where minorities have been targeted by Republicans for voter suppression... There are ZERO cases were dead people were systematically used to get extra votes for Democrats. That is a strawman Republicans erected to claim Democrats also cheat at the polls. Democrats have always been about expanded voting hours and greater access for working people who may have trouble getting to the polls on time.

The parties have switched sides on race... Since FDR minorities have voted more and more for Democrats where they generally voted Republican before that. Show me a case where there’s been an organized effort by Democrats to suppress the Republican vote since the Civil Rights Bill was passed in 1964. The bill that got rid of segregation in restaurants, buses, hotels, schools, and other public places, and banned employment discrimination. There’s been massive and systematic, and well documented efforts by Republicans to suppress Democratic voters. It even crops up in Republican speeches it’s so flagrant. “We gotta do more to damp down the Democrat vote.”

That’s why it’s so important for Republicans to control the judiciary. They will not let a judge who has ever supported a democratic cause anywhere near a high ranking judicial position. They play dirty as Hell and they could GAF less who complains about it. They know with the corrupt judiciary we’ve got they’re bulletproof.

Fighters of previous eras didn't have to deal with skilled super heavyweights. How are they going to manage fighting someone 40-50 pounds heavier who also possesses considerable skill and athleticism?

Since the 60s the top heavyweights have gotten progressively bigger and bigger and we see less and less success by small heavyweights. You can explain one or two incidents as an anomaly but if you look at it objectively there is a clear pattern that shows big heavyweights increasingly dominating the division in a way that never happened prior to the 60s.

Where are all these skilled super heavyweights? Fighters like Lewis and Vitali are anomalies. The vast majority if these guys 20-40 pounds heavier than Ali, Tyson, or Holmes are target practice. Most don't have skill or athleticism.

The majority of great big tall guys aren't athletic... Only one of seventy-three 7-foot Basketball players makes it to the NBA, but increasing bigger guys are more and more athletic. Lewis was the quickest big man ever, than Wladimir was and now Joshua. And upcoming up is Daniel Dubois. It’s the same in Football, Basketball and Track… You never saw a World’s Fastest Human (faster than any man who came before him) as big and tall as Usain Bolt before.

[MrGuy]

That is more of your BULLCRAP as usual BuzzBox.... There are hundreds of documented cases where minorities have been targeted by Republicans for voter suppression... There are ZERO cases were dead people were systematically used to get extra votes for Democrats. That is a strawman Republicans erected to claim Democrats also cheat at the polls. Democrats have always been about expanded voting hours and greater access for working people who may have trouble getting to the polls on time.

The parties have switched sides on race... Since FDR minorities have voted more and more for Democrats where they generally voted Republican before that. Show me a case where there’s been an organized effort by Democrats to suppress the Republican vote since the Civil Rights Bill was passed in 1964. The bill that got rid of segregation in restaurants, buses, hotels, schools, and other public places, and banned employment discrimination. There’s been massive and systematic, and well documented efforts by Republicans to suppress Democratic voters. It even crops up in Republican speeches it’s so flagrant. “We gotta do more to damp down the Democrat vote.”

That’s why it’s so important for Republicans to control the judiciary. They will not let a judge who has ever supported a democratic cause anywhere near a high ranking judicial position. They play dirty as Hell and they could GAF less who complains about it. They know with the corrupt judiciary we’ve got they’re bulletproof.

Fighters of previous eras didn't have to deal with skilled super heavyweights. How are they going to manage fighting someone 40-50 pounds heavier who also possesses considerable skill and athleticism?

Since the 60s the top heavyweights have gotten progressively bigger and bigger and we see less and less success by small heavyweights. You can explain one or two incidents as an anomaly but if you look at it objectively there is a clear pattern that shows big heavyweights increasingly dominating the division in a way that never happened prior to the 60s.

Where are all these skilled super heavyweights? Fighters like Lewis and Vitali are anomalies. The vast majority if these guys 20-40 pounds heavier than Ali, Tyson, or Holmes are target practice. Most don't have skill or athleticism.

The majority of great big tall guys aren't athletic... Only one of seventy-three 7-foot Basketball players makes it to the NBA, but increasing bigger guys are more and more athletic. Lewis was the quickest big man ever, than Wladimir was and now Joshua. And upcoming up is Daniel Dubois. It’s the same in Football, Basketball and Track… You never saw a World’s Fastest Human (faster than any man who came before him) as big and tall as Usain Bolt before.

We saw heavies get bigger. We saw the sport get far worse. That's more athleticism? Common sense dictates athletes can't keep getting stronger and faster. They plateud some time ago. These "superior"athletes are all enhanced. Bolt like the rest of his competitors is juiced. Most sports are now as real as pro wrestling.