Over Muhammad Ali for sure. With that victory Smokin' Joe proved once and for all, that he had been a true champion. Furthermore, the fight itself was exciting.
What was his best KO win?
Here it's not easy to pick something, because Joe had a lot of spectacular KO victories. Jimmy Ellis knock out in their 1st fight is probably the best.
Regardless of win/loss.. Who was his best opponent?
Muhammad Ali again, what is obvious, of course, as Ali was the best fighter of that era.
The Ramos win is a bigger deal than it probably appears to most. Though Kalan will likely explain why that's NOT the case.
The Foster KO was significant as was the Ellis..... Much time has been given to thought that Ellis may well have been able to hold his own and maybe even be able to beat Rocky.....but you can't prove that by using Joe as the benchmark.
I also think without Fraziers win over Ali, we would never have known just what a remarkable fighter Ali really was.
E.G. Ali managing to come back within the fight where Ali for all intents and purposes was dropped twice and managing to slog on...... Joe Frazier did a lot to certify Ali's greatness. As well as his own.
BoxBuzz wrote: ↑26 Apr 2018, 12:30
I also think without Fraziers win over Ali, we would never have known just what a remarkable fighter Ali really was.
E.G. Ali managing to come back within the fight where Ali for all intents and purposes was dropped twice and managing to slog on...... Joe Frazier did a lot to certify Ali's greatness. As well as his own.
Box Buzz wrote: ↑26 Apr 2018, 12:30
The Ramos win is a bigger deal than it probably appears to most. Though Kalan will likely explain why that's NOT the case.
Frazier was a certified punching bag when he fought big underdog George Foreman. He did a good imitation of a basketball bouncing... Every time Frazier got up??? BOOM "DOWN GOES FRAZIER!!" He was wide open for a big, tall hitter.
Joe’s best win was Ali.... He battered the light hitting and punchable Ali with left hooks until it looked like Ali was smuggling a cantaloupe in his cheek.
Box Buzz wrote: ↑26 Apr 2018, 12:30
The Ramos win is a bigger deal than it probably appears to most. Though Kalan will likely explain why that's NOT the case.
Frazier was a certified punching bag when he fought big underdog George Foreman. He did a good imitation of a basketball bouncing... Every time Frazier got up??? BOOM "DOWN GOES FRAZIER!!" He was wide open for a big, tall hitter.
Joe’s best win was Ali.... He battered the light hitting and punchable Ali with left hooks until it looked like Ali was smuggling a cantaloupe in his cheek.
The way he fell each time..
You know looking back.. I've not actually watched their 2nd fight.. worth a watch?
Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑26 Apr 2018, 17:14
You know looking back.. I've not actually watched their 2nd fight.. worth a watch?
It's the worst in the trilogy with no doubt, but still worth a watch, I'd say.
I'd say no... Too much hugging...
Joshua-Klitschko is always worth another watch.. It's a classic.. An interesting fight is Foreman-Young.. Young used a good selection of jabs, body shots, and rights for a guys with so few wins.... Holmes vs Witherspoon was a very interesting and brutal fight.... Lewis-Mercer was a fascinating fight for sheer intensity and force.... Chambers-Dimitrenko was a study on out-foxing a much bigger, taller, and harder punching guy by boxing his ass off.....
My favorite mismatch was Holmes-Frazier. Marvis wasn't ready for a Title Fight. Joe made a few comments before the fight and Larry's glare at Marvis said it all.... His cold blooded stare scared the shitt out of both Marvis and Joe.
It would bore your ass off.... Frazier was super fat and he ran the whole fight... It stunk... Foreman was a lot heavier than their 1st fight as well... He intermittently whaled away at Frazier until the mismatched exercise made no sense.
Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑26 Apr 2018, 17:14
You know looking back.. I've not actually watched their 2nd fight.. worth a watch?
It's the worst in the trilogy with no doubt, but still worth a watch, I'd say.
I meant Frazier vs. Foreman
Not worth watching if you're a Frazier fan. It is the only really sad Frazier fight imo, Joe tried to box and move and ended up with his teeth knocked into the third row. The only fight where he didn't come forward and press the action, it looks all wrong.
It's the worst in the trilogy with no doubt, but still worth a watch, I'd say.
I meant Frazier vs. Foreman
Not worth watching if you're a Frazier fan. It is the only really sad Frazier fight imo, Joe tried to box and move and ended up with his teeth knocked into the third row. The only fight where he didn't come forward and press the action, it looks all wrong.
I've watched it just because I'm a Frazier fan, what made me want to watch all of his fights. Of course, it was sad to watch, but the interest in Frazier's fights just made me to watch that. And I've never rewatched it since then.
It's the worst in the trilogy with no doubt, but still worth a watch, I'd say.
I meant Frazier vs. Foreman
Not worth watching if you're a Frazier fan. It is the only really sad Frazier fight imo, Joe tried to box and move and ended up with his teeth knocked into the third row. The only fight where he didn't come forward and press the action, it looks all wrong.
Coming in fat and with a shaven head made Frazier seem about 50.
Seemed like just a money grab by him. He abandoned the style that brought him success and tried to be a clever boxer.
But he was out of his element.
Sure, Frazier's smoking style would have meant a quick KO defeat, but why take the fight if you're not going to give it your best effort?
Yeah money... Talking about money always makes me think of Bill Slayton for some reason.
Frazier sacrificed his well being in his final fights for money.... Sometimes we don't have a chance to win, but the lust for money causes us to be foolish... You need 2 things in life - money and enough brain power to hold on to it.
Bill Slayton said something like this... "Never let anybody talk you into taking a fight for money.. Money comes and money goes... Your health and well being are 100 times more important than money... Money can't buy you good health... Good health is a gift from God so respect his gift... Do you want to play catch with your grandchildren and take them to the amusement park? .... Or would you rather a nursemaid be wiping your nose for you?"
Kalan wrote: ↑27 Apr 2018, 15:48
Yeah money... Talking about money always makes me think of Bill Slayton for some reason.
Frazier sacrificed his well being in his final fights for money.... Sometimes we don't have a chance to win, but the lust for money causes us to be foolish... You need 2 things in life - money and enough brain power to hold on to it.
Bill Slayton said something like this... "Never let anybody talk you into taking a fight for money.. Money comes and money goes... Your health and well being are 100 times more important than money... Money can't buy you good health... Good health is a gift from God so respect his gift... Do you want to play catch with your grandchildren and take them to the amusement park? .... Or would you rather a nursemaid be wiping your nose for you?"
In the era he was in.. with the likes of Ali, Foreman, Norton etc. Where would you rank him?
I see Frazier as a 1960's Heavyweight.... He was the best late '60's Heavyweight with an exceedingly short prime... He had a great left hook and could take a tremendous punch.... Good enough to beat Ali or anyone of that time frame.
Frazier had all kinds of health problems... He was GONE by the time the '72 showed up... Maybe steroids, I don't know.
He was not going to beat Foreman or any Heavyweight with tremendous size, strength, and punching power.
Kalan wrote: ↑29 Apr 2018, 23:46
I see Frazier as a 1960's Heavyweight.... He was the best late '60's Heavyweight with an exceedingly short prime... He had a great left hook and could take a tremendous punch.... Good enough to beat Ali or anyone of that time frame.
Frazier had all kinds of health problems... He was GONE by the time the '72 showed up... Maybe steroids, I don't know.
He was not going to beat Foreman or any Heavyweight with tremendous size, strength, and punching power.
How was his prime short? He actually was the best also in the first couple of years of the 70s. His prime was from 1965 until 1973, as after Foreman he had never been the same, but before he hadn't shown any signs of declining. Almost 8 years is a pretty solid amount of time for being in prime conditions.
You're not prime when you turn pro.... It takes you at least 2 or 3 years to get there... You're still building your skills for 10 to 15 years or so... But at some point you're just trying to maintain what you've got without slipping.
If you turn pro at 21, your prime might be 25 to 35..... but it could be a lot longer or shorter...
A man like Foreman would have plowed Frazier a lot earlier... He had high blood pressure and an enlarged heart when he fought Ali... That's what they told Frazier when he visited the hospital after Ali 1... He was struggling with hypertension and what not. so he was already slipping... He wiped out George Chuvalo quickly... He seemed good for that fight.
Last edited by Kalan on 30 Apr 2018, 04:39, edited 1 time in total.
Kalan wrote: ↑30 Apr 2018, 04:25
You're not prime when you turn pro.... It takes you at least 2 or 3 years to get there... You're still building your skills for 10 to 15 years or so... But at some point you're just trying to maintain what you've got without slipping.
If you turn pro at 21, your prime might be 25 to 35..... but it could be a lot longer or shorter.
Ok, even if we take into consideration this theory, which apparently can be proved by the 1st fight against Bonavena, in Chuvalo fight Frazier had already been looking fully loaded. And that was 1967, so minus 2 years. 1967-1973, not a big difference.
